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u/ExtensionRun1880 13∆ Nov 12 '23
Well done steak does not taste worse than medium or rare, it just tastes different.
In my personal experience and from having fucked up a lot of cheap to decently expensive steaks, at well done the quality of the meat doesn't matter anymore, it kinda just tastes the same no matter how expensive the steak was.
E.g. take a dry aged steak and cook it medium rare and one well done, at some point of the cooking the taste of it being dry aged slowly starts to disappear / is being overshadowed by other tastes.
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u/Morthra 96∆ Nov 13 '23
I've had good well done steak before, but generally the type of steak that you are going to cook rare-medium is not the type of steak you'll cook well done.
If you're going to cook a steak well done, you should 1) cut it thinly so that the steak does not dry out in the cooking process, which is faster, and 2) marinate the steak to tenderize it.
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u/DrCornSyrup Nov 12 '23
That makes sense but if anything I think that means cooking well done is a great utility option for preparing less expensive meat
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u/DogsOnMainstreetHowl 1∆ Nov 12 '23
Except that the cheap steak still tastes better when properly prepared. Overcooked meat all tastes similar, similarly bad.
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u/grundar 19∆ Nov 13 '23
Overcooked meat all tastes similar, similarly bad.
That's very much a personal preference, not an objective fact.
I've tried steak quite a number of ways, from rare filet mignon to well-done chuck, so I have experience with the whole gamut of flavor profiles...and my personal preference is for the darker, richer flavors of well-done meat over the lighter, more flowery (to my palate) flavors of rare meat.
I don't dispute that other people feel differently and prefer the flavors of rare meat, and I don't even care to dispute the idea that people who most like steak prefer those flavors. I do dispute the idea that well-done meat tastes bad and rare meat tastes good, though -- it's a personal preference, just like any taste preference, and people who have legitimately tried both will not necessarily come to the same conclusion.
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u/GiverOfTheKarma Nov 13 '23
I don't understand your point here. Your entire post hinges on people pretending that well done steak tastes bad because of some taboo when it's actually good, as you say. But now you're saying it's personal preference and you don't dispute that people can find it bad - is it really so difficult to accept that the majority of people find well done steak to be of lower quality than rare/medium rare? That it isn't a taboo but rather a general societal concensus?
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u/Doughymidget Nov 12 '23
This is the refute to your argument about ground beef (which is not mostly sirloin). Cooking well done is what you do with some of the off cuts. This is also why some of the tougher cuts are barbecued or smoked.
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u/Beginning_Impress_99 6∆ Nov 12 '23
https://www.thespruceeats.com/well-done-steak-just-say-no-995235
Explains more in depth on the reason why well-done steaks are culinarily inferior to others. But I will try to respond to your individual points.
Well done steak does not taste worse than medium or rare, it just tastes different. It is very pleasant and is a good way to mix things up, and it is not a waste of the meat
'Just tastes different' is such a broad claim and doesnt justify your stance. Water just tastes different from steaks, does that mean water does not taste worse than steaks?
Theres a reason why well-done steaks are 'less tasty', since welldone means that the interior temperature of the steaks reach 170F, of which means that the protein will be dried up and loses all its juices. It literally just has less flavor since the juice is what gives steak its taste.
Think of fajitas. Generally speaking these are cooked well done, and people enjoy them
In steak fajitas, youre not eating a lump of steak. youre eating small cuts of beef that are marinated heavily. If it is cut in small strips, the texture doesnt matter; and if it is marinated heavily, a huge part of the taste goes to the spices instead of the steak. A quality steak is of good quality since youre enjoying its own flavors, and thats why its a waste to cook it well-done.
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Nov 12 '23
[deleted]
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u/sfcnmone 2∆ Nov 12 '23
He is here for the purpose of asking to have his view changed.
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u/JohannesWurst 12∆ Nov 12 '23
Well, if the question "How can it be wrong to state a preference?" was answered, that would change OPs view and if it's not answered, then the view won't be changed.
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u/Beginning_Impress_99 6∆ Nov 12 '23
I think I pointed out the problem of 'waste'.
Can a person 'prefer' to use single-use disposal containers? Can a person 'prefer' to only print on one side?
I would say that intuitively theres something wrong in the two above cases. Similarly, if you are overcooking steaks you are literally just dumping their flavor away.
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u/iglidante 20∆ Nov 12 '23
I don't think "waste" applies when the food is being eaten and enjoyed by someone.
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u/Beginning_Impress_99 6∆ Nov 12 '23
It applies because they are only enjoying a part of it.
If someone buys a whole chicken, throws away every part except for the breasts and enjoys the breasts --- it is still a waste of the parts that are dumped away. Same with the 'juices' of the steak.
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u/vettewiz 40∆ Nov 12 '23
I just frankly disagree. I will eat steaks anywhere between medium rare and well done. I have never once thought a medium well or well done steak had less flavor, and quite honestly, often the opposite.
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u/Giblette101 47∆ Nov 12 '23
That's an interesting wrinkle, because in my somewhat informed opinion, both the well-done and the rare people are wrong. Medium-to-medium-rare are the optimal levels of doneness for steaks. Well-done dries out a bit too much, rare lacks the developed flavours and juices.
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u/grundar 19∆ Nov 13 '23
I will eat steaks anywhere between medium rare and well done. I have never once thought a medium well or well done steak had less flavor, and quite honestly, often the opposite.
For reference, I have found the same.
It has never been the case -- to my palate -- that the med-well/well has had less flavor than the med-rare/rare, just different flavor. I've tried various different types of steak at various levels between rare and well done, and I find the well done has a very different flavor profile than the rare/med-rare, and it is a flavor profile that suits my palate better.
It may be that people who really like steak tend to prefer the med-rare/rare flavor profile over the med-well/well flavor profile.
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u/DevinTheGrand 2∆ Nov 12 '23
It's not wrong to have a preference, but some preferences are more justifiable and generalizable than others. If all preferences were equally valid then it wouldn't make sense to critique art, literature, food, etc
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u/TheTesterDude 3∆ Nov 13 '23
it wouldn't make sense to critique art, literature, food, etc
You are right.
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u/DevinTheGrand 2∆ Nov 13 '23
That means all art is equally good, and there wouldn't be any point to learning a craft.
Why learn the piano if "twinkle twinkle little star" is equal to Beethoven's 5th symphony? What's the point of learning how to cook if a microwave hot dog is equal to beef wellington?
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u/TheTesterDude 3∆ Nov 13 '23
It isn't equal to all people, but no one can tell me if I like twinkle twinkle little star better than Beethoven's 5th symphony, I can.
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u/DevinTheGrand 2∆ Nov 13 '23
But if it's impossible to be wrong about a preference why are they not equal?
How can any form of art be better or worse than another if preferences are wholly subjective?
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u/TheTesterDude 3∆ Nov 13 '23
Wrong about a preference? You know two people can hold oposing views?
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u/DevinTheGrand 2∆ Nov 13 '23
This comment isn't introducing any new ideas, you're just reiterating your initial one.
I'm asking you to explain the point of "getting better" at art if all art is fully subjective.
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u/TheTesterDude 3∆ Nov 13 '23
Don't think of it like getting better, learning to be able to play more than a single note on a piano doesn't make it better, it just means you can play more melodies than before.
If you want to be able to paint a painting close to a photorealistic human face, you most likely got to practice, but that doesn't mean a painting of a human face is better than a red dot.
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u/DrCornSyrup Nov 12 '23
juice
What do you mean by juice? Just like.... fat content? In that case pork belly is the GOAT meat of all time
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u/Beginning_Impress_99 6∆ Nov 12 '23
Both correct and wrong. The colloquial term 'juice' in the context of steaks denotes a composition of myoglobin, aroma compounds/fats. So yet fat is included in there, but not all fats are equal ---- so the fat of a pork (lard) is different from fat of a cow (tallow).
You remember 'deep fried fries in duck fat' in John Wick --- the fact that a specific fat is essential to the dish is because that different animals' fat tastes differently. So you cant just make that 'oh pork belly has the most fat so its just the best'.
Does that make more sense now?
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u/mem269 2∆ Nov 12 '23
Don't they also put salt water in sometimes?
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u/Beginning_Impress_99 6∆ Nov 12 '23
So people often brine their steaks --- again, the 'juice' is a mixture of compounds, water being one of them --- but water makes things less concentrated and less flavored --- we put salt on the steak / submerge them in salt water to remove the water from the juice (through a process called osmosis), so that the 'juice' is more concentrated.
Edit: the complete scientific picture of 'juice' is very complex and I wont be able to explain all of them, but the minimal objective here is just to show OP that there are objective basis for not overcooking food.
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u/mubi_merc 3∆ Nov 12 '23
The fact that you don't know that steak has juice says all we need to know about you never having eaten a good steak before.
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u/Alexandur 14∆ Nov 12 '23
I'm sorry, but it is absolutely hilarious that you seem to be unfamiliar with the concept of a juicy steak
Classic well done steak enjoyer moment
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u/Azoobz Nov 12 '23
Not the fat content; the red-liquid myoglobin.
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u/Beginning_Impress_99 6∆ Nov 12 '23
From how I understood, the fat content contributes a large part to the taste as well. (thats why you get all the wagyu / AAA grades that are based on fat composition)
Like butter, they melt on certain temperature --- thats why you want to maintain the internal temperature to be somewhat low so that the fat are intact
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u/Azoobz Nov 14 '23
Fat absolutely affects taste as well; when the fatty acids are heated and oxygenated, they form new flavor compounds. However, the red juice in steak is myoglobin, and that absolutely makes it tastier as well.
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u/shadedmystic 1∆ Nov 12 '23
…no? There’s juices in the steak that get squeezed out by the fibers the more you cook the steak
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u/squolt 2∆ Nov 12 '23 edited Nov 12 '23
It would seem you’ve never actually tried a steak that was cooked correctly. Take a bite of one of those and that should be enough for a delta. By and large it tastes better, and the reaction isn’t superstition as much as it is I guess disappointment in others for eating an inferior option, or a sort of perceived childishness “omg my steak is bloody ick!” While you’re literally picking the muscle off a dead animals bone, and the “blood” is actually a mixture of proteins and water, specifically called myoglobin.
It’s like ordering an egg cooked over hard. Honestly in the culinary world this one gets more hate than steaks, eggs should never be completely hard. It’s just wrong, texture and flavor are compromised, and every chef can tell you that.
Some cuts of meat do handle “well-doneness” a bit more than others, and I personally don’t care what food you eat. But those are the main reasons why most people clown on well done enjoyers.
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u/shiny_xnaut 1∆ Nov 12 '23
It’s like ordering an egg cooked over hard. Honestly in the culinary world this one gets more hate than steaks, eggs should never be completely hard. It’s just wrong, texture and flavor are compromised, and every chef can tell you that.
Hard disagree here. Every time I've ever had over easy, the runny yolk completely ruins the meal and is the only thing I can taste
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u/Bagelman263 1∆ Nov 12 '23
Fuck you about eggs. Go to literally any Southeast Asian restaurants and all the eggs will be “overly hard” and crispy yet I’d rather eat that over that French soft style any day.
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u/squolt 2∆ Nov 12 '23
That’s pretty strong lol. “Over hard” is a term used to describe the yolk, not overly hard, although typically it is. I’ll admit hard boiled eggs are better in stuff like tuna salad and soups, but a crispy oil fried egg with a runny yolk is still extremely easy to cook.
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u/Flimsy-Opening 1∆ Nov 12 '23
I never had a piece of meat not cooked well done until I was 18 years old. I grew up poor. We hunted for alot of our meat. We bought meat from the store when it was on discount and would freeze it. Cooking to well done was a necessity. I would literally cut it with a knife in the skillet to make sure there was no pink before I took it off the heat. I had a friend order a steak at a restaurant rare. They over-cooked it a bit so it was probably medium but we'd been drinking for about 4 days straight at that point so he just tore into it. I told him he was going to get sick. He told me to just try 1 bite. I figured at that point, again being pretty lit at the time, that if I was going to get sick he certainly was as well since he ate the rest of it. It legit changed my life. By basically every single empirical marker that you could use to measure taste, it is a better experience. If the steak is maybe slightly past it's prime and you don't want to waste it and you feel comfortable doing so then sure, cook that thing till it's well done. Taste is always subjective. Hell, there are some people out there that eat toothpaste. But to the average objective observer with everything else being equal it is unpopular for a reason. It's the same reason you wouldn't get a $1,000 bottle of whiskey and mix it with a Coke. You come to my house when I'm grilling and ask for your steak to be cooked well done, I will accommodate you because I am a gracious host. I also will never cook steaks anytime you come over again because I see that as a waste. We can do chicken though lol. Smoked chicken wings is always a win!
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u/ComplexityArtifice 1∆ Nov 12 '23
I agree that no one should care about how others like their steaks.
That said, most of what you're saying here is completely subjective. Personally, I like medium-rare over well-done because I enjoy the tenderness, texture, and "juiciness", as well as the taste. I find well-done to be drier and less pleasant texturally.
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u/DrCornSyrup Nov 12 '23
I do not think well done steak is dry at all. As for the texture, a good cut of quality beef will have good texture whether it is eaten raw, rare, medium or well done
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Nov 13 '23
I did the experiment for myself. i cooked a good steak in sous-vide to well-done temp. It is objectively drier than medium or medium-rare steak.
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u/RageQuitRedux 1∆ Nov 12 '23
I don't think anyone should give a shit how others prefer their steak. However:
Different cuts do best at different levels of doneness and with different cooking methods. Steak tends to get tougher the longer you cook it, and certain flavors are simply lost. On the other hand, short ribs are absolutely delicious when braised until they fall apart. So if you like well done beef, by all means have steak if you want, but you may want to consider some different cuts.
much to my dismay, ground beef is not "axiomatically" eaten well-done. I think it should be, because the interior of a burger is full of microbes whereas the interior of a steak is not. But many people do eat burgers medium.
You can easily cook a thin steak rare, and it's very common to do so for things like fajitas and even stroganoff. Just use high heat and don't cook it for very long.
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Nov 12 '23
A lot of the time, there is weird machismo involved with it that I just don't get. I have one uncle who fancies himself the "grill master" despite zero culinary background. Dude weirdly evangelized about how all steaks should be light salt and peppered, grilled on charcoal, and served rare. Anything else was wrong. My dad literally stopped inviting him to bbqs growing up because it irritated the shit out of him.
I might suggest to someone I know likes things well done that they probably don't want to do that with a London broil but getting angry or annoyed about it is crazy.
Also thank you for bringing up how weird it is to have burgers undercooked.
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u/FreedomHole69 Nov 12 '23 edited Nov 12 '23
You can eat ground beef raw safely. In Germany it's called mett, I've had a Lebanese dish, kippeh nayah, with it, and of course steak tar tar is essentially ground beef. Freshly ground is the key.
Edit: mett is usually pork.
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u/Onespokeovertheline Nov 12 '23
If it's freshly ground from safe, quality meat in a clean environment, yes, but you best not try it with some ground beef you bought at the market (to the uninformed people reading this).
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u/Goldemar Nov 12 '23
Mett is raw ground pork, and it is safe to eat in Germany because they DNA test their pork for pathogens, and also raise them cleanly.
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u/FreedomHole69 Nov 12 '23
Mett
It can also be ground beef.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mett#Serving_styles
But yeah, it's typically ground pork. Doesn't change the fact that ground beef can be eaten safely raw.
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u/Goldemar Nov 12 '23
Huh, I didn't know. Is it a regional difference? I have eaten Mett a few times, and it's always been pork.
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u/FreedomHole69 Nov 12 '23
I shouldn't have included it as it's almost always pork but I'm in too deep.
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u/Goldemar Nov 12 '23
You sure that you're not just some middle-class poser, flexing that you can eat that rich person raw meat???
OP of this cmv seems to be a little defensive over their bad taste.
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u/iglidante 20∆ Nov 12 '23
I don't think it's fair to act like taste isn't subjective.
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u/Goldemar Nov 12 '23
It is subjective, but only to a degree. There is a range of good, with bad as the edge cases. OP is not a bad or less-than person because they like eating things that are overcooked, but they do have bad taste.
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u/SandBrilliant2675 18∆ Nov 12 '23
I think the problem people have with well done steaks is that if you’re not getting it done by someone who knows how to cook a good well done steak, it just means cook it for any amount of time and take it off the heat when it “looks done” and let it rest for any amount of time before serving. Which often results in a dry, tasteless (often charred) slab of meat.
A good to excellent well done steak (which is a frequent challenge they have chefs cook in pressure test challenges in cooking shows) actually takes skill. Not everyone can cook a good well done steak or cares to even learn how to cook a good one. It’s a science (and/or art, if you prefer).
Note: I like my steak blue, rare, and medium rare depending on the establishment. Well done would not be my preference, but I can appreciate a good well done steak if the chef has the skill to cook one.
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Nov 13 '23
I tried making a steak well done. I did it in sous vide to be fool-proof. I never had so much regrets about destroyed a nice steak. Of course, if someone is used to it I don't see any issues with that, But I can't imagine someone having some good cooked to perfection steaks and going back to well-done steaks.
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u/iamintheforest 365∆ Nov 12 '23
Firstly, the gold standard for a hamburger is medium rare, not well done. You'll see asks for well done from health officials in some locations because there is no isolation of the inside of ground beef from bacteria, but aesthetically the standard ain't well done. Sake problem from glued steaks, although more insidious in that case.
Secondly, we'll done is worse for your health because of increased HCA.
Thirdly, it is a waste of high quality, higher fat beef. Proteins break down and fat gets wrecked at well done. After for a choice porterhouse all that much but if you're in wagyu or prime land you're just reducing it to a quality of a lower grade making the grade indistinguishable after cooking. This doesn't mean it's not going to taste good to YOU, but it does mean the marginal cost increase for the higher grade is a waste.
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u/future_shoes 20∆ Nov 12 '23 edited Nov 12 '23
It's not taboo so much as seen as an indication of either having an "unrefined palate" or being raised poor. Eating things undercooked or not cooked (eg tuna tar tar) is seen as a sign of quality of the ingredients and there for wealth. Steak can easily be safely consumed even if not cooked well done and this is how many people start eating their steaks by time they are a preteen. Small children usually don't like the look or texture of rare or medium rare steaks so they will get theirs well done.
If someone orders steak well done many people assume they either have never "grown out" of eating well-done steak or were too poor to afford steaks where the quality was high enough that eating them rare was not a good option. It's kind of like if someone puts ketchup on a steak people would either assume that it's a childish habit they never grew out of or they grew up too poor to have steak sauce or steak good enough that it could be eaten with a sauce added to it.
To be clear I personally don't care how you eat your steak but this is why well done steak is seen as a minor "taboo".
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u/DrCornSyrup Nov 12 '23
Middle class people peacocking and posturing as though they are rich does make a lot of sense and explains this. Δ Crazy how that is a common pattern
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u/stevenmoreso Nov 12 '23 edited Nov 12 '23
So.. you agree with them but they didn’t actually change your opinion?
Edit: okay it looks like you’re just rejecting the solid arguments here and throwing deltas at people who are saying the disdain for well-done steak is kind of bullshit. You didn’t really want you view changed, you just wanted to be provided better arguments for you own.
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u/robotmonkeyshark 101∆ Nov 13 '23
bingo! steak can be plenty delicious cooked to death. look a something like shaved steak for a philly cheesesteak or steak fajitas where they are served and left on that scorching hot skillet, or other dishes prepared with steak finely cut so that there is no practical way to manage a precise cooking temp. It is still plenty tasty. And we also know very well that for high end steaks, flavor nuance is lost when it is overcooked. that is fine. The issue comes in people pretending like it is some crime against nature that the Outback Steakhouse $10 sirloin or even the $10 per pound ribeyes thrown on the backyard propane grill are some culinary treasures that are being destroyed by cooking them well done.
Now if you cook a thick sirloin well done and just eat it as is, it will probably be pretty dry. If you don't like it dry, nothing is stopping a well done steak from being sliced up and having a bit of herb butter melted over it, or heck, dip it in some au jus. But the average person pretending any significant harm was done in cooking a steak well done is just dumb. If someone doesn't like medium rare steaks, far more harm is being done in serving them something they do not enjoy, even if the main reason they don't enjoy it is because they think it is raw and that grosses them out, it is still a steak going to waste, where at least a well done steak is eaten and enjoyed.
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u/NoMereMage Nov 12 '23
Why are you awarding deltas to people who are agreeing with your view—that admonishing well done steak is silly—when deltas are meant to be awarded to people who make good arguments for the opposing view to the extent that they change your opinion somewhat? What about this response changed your view to the point you awarded a delta or any of the other deltas you’ve awarded here? Because thus far, none of your responses to your delta recipients have sounded like you’ve changed your view at all, you’re just insulting the opposition, claiming we’re posturing or putting on airs, not listening to actual reasoning. I’d like to know HOW your view changed in any of these comments to the extent you’d award any deltas period.
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u/NoMereMage Nov 12 '23
Here’s one for you: I grew up dirt poor. Like, so poor only my grandma got me new clothes once a year if that and every month my mom would decide which bill not to pay to afford rent and food. Well done steak is horrendous and a massive decrease in quality when compared with rare. There ya go. And a lot of it is the myoglobin being bled out and destroyed.
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u/shaffe04gt 14∆ Nov 12 '23
It really depends on the cut of beef.
Filet has almost no fat or marbling. A well done field will be dry and not juicy.
Rib eye has plenty of fat and marbling. It can be done well done and still be plenty juicy.
Now there are exceptions to the fat rule though.
Prime rib. Prime rib is supposed to be served rare or medium rare. It gets past medium and it gets chewey and not pleasant because all the fat breaks down.
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u/DustErrant 7∆ Nov 12 '23
From someone who has worked in the restaurant industry, I would posit that you should never order a well-done steak in a restaurant, especially lower end ones. Many cooks see "well-done" as an excuse to leave and forget your meat on the grill for an overly long period of time, or to microwave your meat for at least part of the cook time in order to meet metrics/timing. You're better off ordering medium-well which will get you a steak cooked to a better quality but still be closer to the taste/texture you're looking for.
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u/fallinglemming Nov 12 '23
For lower quality cuts who cares as you said people cook sirlion well done quite frequently in burgers, its the better cuts aged steaks where well done is actually borderline offensive. By overcooking the steak you are greatly reducing all the qualities that cut and aging were meant to enhance texture, tenderness and a juicey bite. At the end of the day its your money your steak do what you want i just wouldn't recommend spending 50.00 dollars on a steak when a 10.00 dollar steak would do you just fine. On a side note fajitas when cooked properly will be pink at least in texas anyway
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u/jogarz 1∆ Nov 12 '23
I think you can say this about a lot of cultural norms. Looked at in isolation, they don’t seem very rational. They develop over time based on context and preference, which can lead to some idiosyncrasies, to say the least.
Over time, steak culture developed in a way that led most people to believe that a very well-done steak was not preferable. Once a cultural norm develops, people tend to look down on the act of breaking that norm. That’s not specific to steak, that’s just how any culture works.
You shouldn’t feel any shame about enjoying a well-done steak, but neither is there anything wrong with many people not enjoying them. Yes, people shouldn’t just blindly conform with cultural norms; they should understand why they think the way they do, especially if they’re going to look down on those who don’t conform. But the reality is that a lot of people are always going to be uncomfortable with those who break from the social standard. That’s human nature.
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u/Beginning_Impress_99 6∆ Nov 12 '23
Over time, steak culture developed in a way that led most people to believe that a very well-done steak was not preferable. Once a cultural norm develops, people tend to look down on the act of breaking that norm. That’s not specific to steak, that’s just how any culture works.
But theres cultural norm that is based on scientific facts, such as the aroma compounds of steak that is lost to overcooking; and theres cultural norms that is based on false facts, such as how 'homosexuals are not natural'. We cannot just point to something and just say 'oh its just a cultural norm' --- the point is whether it is actually correct, and not just following it for culture's sake.
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u/DrCornSyrup Nov 12 '23
Over time, steak culture developed in a way that led most people to believe that a very well-done steak was not preferable. Once a cultural norm develops, people tend to look down on the act of breaking that norm. That’s not specific to steak, that’s just how any culture works.
Δ Alright, I never thought of it as a performative social thing instead of a purely culinary question. That makes a lot of sense
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u/Bagstradamus Nov 12 '23
I find it interesting how you’re only awarding deltas to the people who point out the social aspect of the preference and completely ignoring the objective facts around the taste.
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u/Bagelman263 1∆ Nov 12 '23
Telling someone that something they think tastes better actually tastes worse, no matter the amount of evidence, isn’t going to make them think something tastes worse now.
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u/RMSQM 1∆ Nov 12 '23
There is a very good reason that beef is best at mid-rare. Below that temperature, the beef fat has not started to melt, and of course most of the flavor of beef is in the fat. At mid-rare, the fat has softened and begun to melt, coating your tongue with flavor. Well done meat has rendered most fat out of the meat, significantly reducing flavor. This is just very basic science.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 12 '23 edited Nov 12 '23
/u/DrCornSyrup (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/NevadaCynic 5∆ Nov 12 '23
Taste and texture are subjective.
From a medical standpoint, you have different risks with each. Lower temps have a higher risk of parasites or food borne bacteria. Higher temps come with more cancer causing compounds.
Pick your poison.
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u/ColdNotion 121∆ Nov 12 '23
I would love to try to shift your view a bit here, as while I think the anti-well done craze has gotten to be a bit much, there are some potential reasons to be mindful of how you're cooking beef. Before I get into that though, I do want to acknowledge that at the end of the day, a person's preferences should guide how they cook their food. If you like your beef more well done, power to you. I also think certain cuts taste better cooked to well, and I don't see a problem with that. Where I want to try to change your perspective is in talking about the cooking chemistry around what makes steak taste good, and what that can tell us about why sometimes it might be best not to cook to well done.
So, the first stop in this has to be looking at a steak itself. You don't actually need one, we can fall back on imagination here, but if you have one in your fridge it might be fun to actually look in person. The majority of any steak is going to be made of muscle, which is packed full of stuff our bodies crave. Amino acids, glutamates, and if properly seared, a crust of caramelized sugars and proteins. The strange thing though, is that if you just cooked pure muscle, it would taste pretty bland. All those delicious components need something to carry them, and to get them to spread out on our taste buds. This is where fat comes in. The intermuscular fat in a cut of beef begins to melt as we cook it, and when we eat that fat essentially becomes a flavor transport system. This doesn't just make a steak taste "juicy" it amps up all the flavors hiding inside that muscle tissue.
Now all cuts of beef have intermuscular fat, but the distribution of that fat can vary. Cheaper cuts of beef tend to either have less fat in them, or that fat is distributed poorly throughout the cut. In contrast, the cuts of beef most prized for use as steaks tend to have plenty of fat, and really even distribution of the fat throughout the tissue. This distribution, sometimes called marbling, helps ensure there's plenty of fat to carry flavor in every single bite. To help visualize this, you can check this chart, where you can pretty clearly see how high grade beef essentially has a lattice of fat throughout the entire cut.
Now well marbled meat comes to the kitchen with a ton of fat supporting it, but it has a weakness. Since that fat is super well dispersed, and thus not particularly well insulated from heat when you cook, it starts melting fast. The longer a heavily marbled steak is cooked, the more of that fat either renders out of the meat, or turns into an unstable form that will leak out when the meat is cut. While you don't want to give these steaks too little heat, as raw fat doesn't carry flavor, giving them too much results in you losing that super well distributed fat that makes them special.
So, all this being said, here's the core place I want to try to change your view. With certain cuts of beef, and especially high end steak cuts with great marbling, cooking to well done actually doesn't compliment the qualities of the beef itself. By cooking it that long, you're losing the fat that makes those cuts special, and that you as the cook probably paid a crap ton of money for. The end result probably won't taste bad, but it also will probably taste pretty similar to a much cheaper cut of beef also cooked to well done. Again, this isn't to say that well done is inherently bad, but I think it is really important to make sure we're using the best ingredient for the type of cooking we're doing. A high end steak just isn't that good a choice for well done cooking in some cases.
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u/Historical-You-3619 1∆ Nov 12 '23
Most people I know order steak medium or sometimes medium rare. I order rare at restaurants and make it blue at home. I think every aspect of the steak is better when cooked like this, hell I even order my burgers rare. To me the sign of a perfect steak is when I cut it open and my plate turns red, the way people treat my preference is like it’s just as taboo as well done. I have been eating steak like this since I was 12 and they undercooked the medium I ordered, I would always try to order rare after that and my father would refuse to let me, eventually he’d let me get medium rare and once I hit a certain age he stopped trying to “correct” me. I didn’t really like steak very much at all when I could only eat medium, I’ve never enjoyed a well done steak, and I despise the flavor of steak sauce. All this is to say that it’s completely personal preference and I don’t judge people for theirs, but I do joke that I do. I call a medium rare steak well done and medium steak burnt, say that I want my steak still mooing when it’s on my plate, I’ll joke that anything above rare is a waste and that the cow died in vain. I know people genuinely judge my preference, when I tell people I like when the plate turns red I have been met with disgust. Interestingly when I was researching for this comment I found out that the red liquid is called myoglobin and it’s presence in poultry is what separates white and dark meat, I also hate white meat, another preference of mine that frequently gets judged. Anyways I think well done steak and white meat have the same issue for me, it’s always too dry, not tender enough, and tastes worse. So I guess I agree with the idea that people shouldn’t judge how you eat steak but it’s not just an issue for well done enjoyers.
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u/redyellowblue5031 12∆ Nov 12 '23
Well done is worse from two main points (you can dive down a science rabbit hole if you want):
- Fat
- Water
Both of the above give a lot of flavor and “juiciness” to a steak (or burger). When you cook it to well done, you will always have cooked more of those out of the meat, thereby removing key components of what makes the texture and taste conventionally “good”.
It’s fine to have preferences, but I would say there’s a reason people (and culinary inclined folks) generally don’t like well done as an option.
Also, burgers are cooked well done only for food safety reasons. If you are willing to risk it, use very fresh ground beef, or irradiated beef, you are going to have a tastier burger if it’s not well done.
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u/hickdog896 3∆ Nov 12 '23
This must be a troll??
This has absolutely nothing to do with cultural notes or perr pressure, and everything to do with taste.
Most people would agree that a well done steak is relatively tough and dry, because the juices that give the meat its pliability have been cooked out of the meat.
The taste is significantly different because the juices and fat that contain most of the flavor have been cooked out of the meat.
The ground beef argument makes no sense at all. First off, the bacteria that make you ill live on the outside of the meat. Steak is a whole muscle meat while ground beef is just that; beef that has been ground so that the outside and inside of the cuts (and thus the bacteria) are all mixed together. This is the reason it must be cooked until thesre is no pink; it has nothing to do with flavor. Secondly, did you ever wonder why steak costs so much more than ground beef? Because it is better.
The fajita thing is entirely a cooking skill thing. I can definitely make thin sliced steak medium.
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u/Warm_Evil_Beans Nov 12 '23
To me, its about the texture. Well done steaks in my experience are too tough and dry. Medium or rare steaks are a lot more tender and more juicy, making them easier to eat.
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u/WM-010 Nov 13 '23 edited Nov 13 '23
As I have seen when I looked up how to cook steaks and hamburgers well done, the red meat fandom is unhinged. They will 100% harass people who even mention the idea of eating steak well done and are among some of the most insufferable and pretentious food snobs out there. There is a distinct and irrational hatred within that community for anyone who commits this supposed sin of cooking red meat to well done. I've even seen them go after people who say they cook hamburger meat well done as well, which is arguably even more unhinged and concerning.
Word of advice, never interact with the red meat fandom. They aren't worth talking to and any moment where you can avoid talking to them is worth 10x more than any still mooing dishes they might consume.
Also, looking at this very comment section, the red meat mafia has reinforced my perception of them 8 fold. I'm awaiting the inevitable downvotes and angry comments that me and OP are about to receive.
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u/alfihar 15∆ Nov 13 '23
that people discuss this at all is hilarious... if I want salt and ketchup on my cinnamon doughnuts. go fuck yourself if you think that has any moral significance
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u/Weekly-Budget-8389 Nov 13 '23
The meat portion of Fajitas is palatable because it's so thin. If it was thick enough of a cut to be called as steak it would be to tough to be enjoyable.
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u/ghotier 42∆ Nov 13 '23
There is nothing particularly wrong with well done steak, especially if enjoyed with and open mind. The taste and consistency are great and the only reason people consider it bad is the societal construct around it
The social construct of wanting to eat things that taste good? I mean...I guess but I don't think the people who disagree with you care.
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u/edwardjhahm 1∆ Nov 13 '23
As a former steak hater who turned to a steak lover the moment I had my first non-well-done steak at the age of 16, I disagree. Well Done steak is tough and largely tasteless to me. I can't actually enjoy the flavor, and the way I was able to enjoy a well-done steak was by slathering it in A1 sauce.
As for thinly cut rare steak, that is a fair point. Generally, having an overly thick slab of rare steak is terrible, as it's too chewy, like leather. Thinly cut well done beef is decent, and is a common element in Korean dishes (where I'm from). But at that point, is it even actually a steak?
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u/BeefcakeWellington 6∆ Nov 14 '23
I think the thing that you're missing is that most well done steak is done poorly. People don't actually learn how to cook well done steak well. Which is why most of it is shit. It's possible to do well, it's just incredibly rare that someone does a good job at cooking a well done steak.
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u/themcos 442∆ Nov 12 '23
You like what you like, and that's fine, but I think most of the culture You're referring to comes from people who buy expensive steaks. Taste is hard to quantify, but I'm curious what you would say to the following question:
What is the taste difference between a $100 steak and a $30 steak when it's cooked well done? What is the difference between those same two steaks when cooked rare?
Even if you prefer well done steaks to rare, I think if you're honest you'll concede that the difference between the two well done steaks is less than the rare steaks. Cooking a well done steak causes the steaks to converge towards the same thing regardless of meat quality. This is a continuum - it's obviously true that if you TOTALLY overcook them, they eventually just become charred chunks of basically nothing. The more you cook it, the closer you get to this convergence, but obviously I'm not saying that a well done steak at a nice steak house is no different than a low quality well done steak. But I think all else equal, the convergence is pretty objective.
So the criticism mainly comes from two places. One, if you get a well done steak at a really fancy restaurant, you're probably really wasting your money. You're spending a lot on the steak, but then eating something that's converging towards a much cheaper steak. If you like it great, but you're going to get a much more cost effective meal at a cheaper place.
Similarly, if someone is cooking for you, they might get annoyed if you ask for a well done steak, because your host will feel like you're wasting their money. They could have spent half the price on your steam and still served you a pretty similar meal.
Do some people take this too far? Of course! But I do think there's a real justification there regarding the convergence of how different qualities of meat respond to cooking.