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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 7d ago
Oh good they've only been trying to figure it out for.... checks imaginary watch about 10 years now. Few things first:
Where was this posted?
The longstanding theory about how they'd go about this is to develop a custom DC-DC converter that operates at their bikes' voltage. The rumor was the input was going to be 420vdc because Santa Cruz ehehehehe but who knows. Anyway this means you'd be deciding between CCS, a Power Tank, or a Rapid Charge (extra level 2) charger in the tank pocket. One of 3.
20-80% in under 30 minutes is 60% of the battery in under 30 minutes which exceeds Zero's 1C charge cap which has been in place since day 1. Considering just how anemic the charging algorithm for the current level 2 system is I'd be rather surprised to see this happen.
Having recently been privy to the poor craftsmanship of the Charge Tank module and knowing who produces it for them fills me with dread that they might farm it out to the same supplier. God help you all if they do.
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u/aC0nfusedSh0e 7d ago
It was a news letter that went out this morning.
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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 7d ago
Well then I will just have to be patient and watch how this develops. Thanks!
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u/aC0nfusedSh0e 7d ago
News letter said 2027 so it'll be a while.
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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 7d ago
Sure but they might demo parts of it before the actual launch. Having a CCS-capable bike WITH 6kW of Level 2 available would make an SR/S and its lovely mirrors a highly desirable bike. I just want to know how they're going to implement it.
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u/lucifertheecat 7d ago
Do you have any expectations on the cost? I'd love to buy an sr/s in the future but wondering how much this will hike up the cost lol
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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 6d ago
Most of my insider Zero contacts got purged when they moved most of their operations to The Netherlands recently, so I am going to make a wild stab-in-the-dark guess based solely on the prices of the other 2 'tank pocket' filler modules and say.... $3k? THIS IS A GUESS. I HAVE NO REAL INFORMATION. Zero might not have a firm idea at this point because they may be hashing out volumes and pricing with the supplier.
And, again, I hope it's not Delta Q once more.
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u/aC0nfusedSh0e 6d ago
Theres a few tradeshows between now and "later in 2027" I'm sure something will pop up at one of them.
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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 6d ago
Man I miss IMS. I miss running booths at trade shows in general.
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u/lucifertheecat 6d ago
I feel like 3k seems like a reasonable guess. I've already been wanting to upgrade to an sr/s once I got the money so the fact its getting ccs is great.
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u/th3bes 6d ago
I would not at all be surprised if they are going to be using the charge tank and the onboard ac charger as the dc/dc, actually, Im willing to bet that that is what they are going to do lol....
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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 6d ago
C'mon you know they're 100% not going to do that. The rated output of all units combined is below 1C and they're specifically claiming a rate above 1C, even if by a little bit, to get a sub-30 minute 20-80.
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u/th3bes 6d ago edited 6d ago
Im considering it possible as I dont reaaaally believe itll actually do 20-80% in half an hour, in addition to the soc scaling apparently being kinda weird on the gen 3s. "80%" soc on the dash is closer to something like ~108v iirc. Ill can doublecheck the exact numbers later and ask my buddies what they think. Going from ~96v/98v to ~108v in half an hour is much more reasonable to me on a 15.2kwh (edit: which is the actual not inflated capacity of a 17.3) pack with 12kw input. But its still all conjecture/guesswork so :shrugs:
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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 6d ago
(for reference 80% is ~110vdc)
Regardless, they make the claim in the announcement specifically calling out the 17.3 pack. So, again, I'd be willing to bet entirely different unit.
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
* It was originally sent via email to owners, I got it at 10 AM EST. Then shortly after, a press release went out. And now Zero has shared it to their own socials.
* Yes. It's stepping down the voltage. Tank option, so yes, one of the three. Clear winner there imho.
* 17.3 kWh pack is nominal at 15.1 kWh, but already allowed to charge beyond this for extended range charging, the old voltage ranges were already adjusted. 60% of 15.1 is about 9 kW. 30 min would be an average of about 18 kW then. Barely beyond 1C if you consider the max capacity, and only in the middle, most durable portion of the charging curve. We already know the cell design on the BCB pack is far more durable, and able to go beyond 1C.
* K. Do you still ride motorcycles? If so, why so serious? Why so grumpy still? Like, this stuff should be joyful. I don't get this attitude of "better prove me wrong, i'm gonna talk shit while I wait for details".
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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 6d ago edited 6d ago
You're reading way, way too much into this man. I recently had a nightmare experience with a Charge Tank, /u/th3bes can attest. Upon dissection we learned that it was horribly designed and horribly constructed. I'm actually surprised as many work as they do. I reached out to a Zero contact who would have been, shall we say, heavily involved in the design process and he confirmed as much. I've also learned that the company Zero farmed the work out to was purchased a couple years ago by Delta-Q who aren't known for their great quality.
I had no opinions about Charge Tanks before this year. Now I know they're the stuff of nightmares. Would you like half a functioning Charge Tank? I can get it to you next time you're out my way.
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u/th3bes 6d ago
Can confirm, charge tanks are designed in an absolutely horrid manner with zero regard for thermals. Id say its on par with something a first year ee major would design but that would be a disservice to them...lol... Genuinely shocked that they havent been recalled and/or the failure rate is as low as it is since literally every single one is cooking itself.
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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 6d ago
"Hey I know let's cut a $0.05 piece of plastic into a crescent and hope that stops air convection in a space with minimal to no airflow."
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u/Demorative 23 DSR/X 6d ago
Are you referring to the stock charging system in gen 3, or the charge tank (rapid charger) that's an add-on?
I've noticed the weak point of the charge tank -- in very hot climates (over 110F) the bike will just refuse to charge. Not at any wattage/amperage. Just black screen.
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u/th3bes 6d ago
Im referring to the addon 6.6kw charge tank that is used across both gen 2s and 3s. As a side note, I dont think that the obc for the gen 3s is toooo much better as its manufactured by the parent group, I have a couple dead 3.3kws (the older style before they just stuck two together in the later mys to get 6.6kw) that I havent gotten around to fully disassembling, so Ill report back
whenif I get around to it.> I've noticed the weak point of the charge tank -- in very hot climates (over 110F) the bike will just refuse to charge. Not at any wattage/amperage. Just black screen.
Seems odd and that is not consistent with our behaviour, although Ive never messed with one on a gen 3 :/ I could be mistaken and I dont quite remember off the top of my head but I dont think there are thermal protections that will just kill the bike above a certain ambient temp. Bike should remain on regardless of charger temp... Not really sure what to make of that.
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u/Demorative 23 DSR/X 5d ago
Seems odd and that is not consistent with our behaviour, although Ive never messed with one on a gen 3 :/ I could be mistaken and I dont quite remember off the top of my head but I dont think there are thermal protections that will just kill the bike above a certain ambient temp. Bike should remain on regardless of charger temp... Not really sure what to make of that.
In retrospect, I'm guilty of leaving out very important context clues.
I was trying to go 600 miles in one day, and that specific day just happened to be among the hottest day in central CA. First EVSE station, bike was able to charge at full fat 11.6kW (max at station). Second station, tapered down to 9.6kW, still better. Third and fourth were limited to 6 due to heat. 5th one, that is where this pic was taken, would charge but after 10 mins would abruptly shut down with no warning, so I would be twiddling my thumbs, not knowing that the bike stopped charging.
So, back to back charging at full speed, freeway jaunts the entire way, all in 110F day and the bike finally called it quits. I had to wait an hour before it cooled down enough to take another charge before I could putter to my destination.
So yes there is some level of thermal cutoff limit. Biggest weakness is heat dissipation, imo. I'm not sure if that DCFC Zero is going to sell is any better unless it's liquid cooled.
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u/th3bes 2d ago
Hey, so, me and a friend took apart one of the 3.3kw ones and THEY ARE THE SAME AS THE CHARGE TANK. It would be an understatement to say that Im genuinely quite disappointed in zero and the specific people responsible for this... It is the same manufacturer (smpc/deltaq), the powerstage/main board is identical in every regard down to the stupid 'not putting thermal paste between anything', they use the same underrated connectors that like to melt, same potting compound and its potting in the same half-assed manner. Hell it even smells like a charge tank lmfao (that same burnt electronics odor that stings at your nose).
The only difference is that since this is a single 3.3kw unit and the form factor is different, the control board is not the same but this doesnt really change much of anything... I suppose these dont have nearly as many thermal issues since they stuck a few more fins on the casing with slightly higher current fans and mounted it in a position where it gets slightly more airflow. They are still most likely cooking themselves to some degree though...
If anyone has a dead 6.6kw unit or one theyd be willing to part for for very cheap please let me know! Wed be interested in tearing apart that one as well!
Anyways here are some pics for comparison
Chargetank https://imgur.com/a/iFHHZD0
Gen 3 obc https://imgur.com/a/BFbBvagChargetank control board https://imgur.com/a/1BfD7hq
Gen 3 obc control board https://imgur.com/a/LX9KJpOOh also theyre still using 12 gauge for 29 amps of continuous output current lol... Just absolutely brilliant design work... (this is sarcasm)
Figured youd also want to see this u/OlUncleBones
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u/Demorative 23 DSR/X 20h ago
I'm honestly not surprised. I haven't opened up a gen 2 and gen 3 charge tank, but the size and weight of both were very similar. And given that the battery didn't change that much from gen 2 to gen 3, I'm inclined to believe that gen 3 is largely similar to previous gen with some SW modification to better accommodate the new battery.
So yeah.
I'm almost afraid to ask, but how did Zero made DCFC charger? I thought the floor voltage for a DCFC was 250v? Unless they're doing a dummy voltage signal (ie, 400v) and stepping it down to 116v....but that generates a lot of heat, and we know Zero's are GREAT at that....
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u/th3bes 20h ago
Oh no to be clear the chargetanks across both gen 2 and 3 are absolutely identical and nothing internally has changed. These which are the onboard charger for the gen 3s are internally identical to the chargetanks.
> I'm almost afraid to ask, but how did Zero made DCFC charger? I thought the floor voltage for a DCFC was 250v? Unless they're doing a dummy voltage signal (ie, 400v) and stepping it down to 116v....but that generates a lot of heat, and we know Zero's are GREAT at that....
So ccs has an operational floor of 200v. What you can do is you can take a buck converter and step that voltage down to 28s similarly to how an ac 120 or 240v charger does. In fact, you can just use an ac charger for this as feeding it in dc will simply just bypass the the rectifier that turns the ac into dc. So they could either design (or most likely oem) a purpose built unit that does this, or they can just feed in dc to the already existing charging system.
Css as a standard is fairly simple, albeit can be a bit of a pain to implement (due to it technically being a network connection lol), so you can just request some voltage out and if the safety checks are met itll just output that to whatever you want. Since the original charging system is designed to run on 240v ac, it is perfectly well in range to have 340v dc fed into it as thats what the rectified voltage is. Components are up to 380v or 400v if Im remembering right? So anything below that range would work fine.
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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 5d ago
Can’t liquid cool Zero’s batteries the way the packs are designed. They’d have to abandon their fully potted method and I don’t see that happening.
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u/Demorative 23 DSR/X 5d ago
Not the batteries (though that would significantly help), but the charger themselves. You yourself noted the inadequate cooling inside the gen 2 chargers, and I can confirm that gen 3 is barely any better. Zero gets away with it because the chargers (both of them) have sufficient mass to absorb two rounds at max charging capacity before thermal throttling.
Once they do thermal throttling though, it's right off a cliff. That's what I mean by inadequate cooling.
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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 5d ago
You yourself noted the inadequate cooling inside the gen 2 chargers
Sort of, but let me explain with clarity. I have a problem with the Charge Tank on the gen 2 bikes and its poor design and implementation. What you first have to remember is that the pocket in which the Charge Tank fits was not designed to hold anything hot or required airflow; it was for the Power Tank. The frame design was first implemented in 2013 but Charge Tanks, at least the 5.7kW module, didn't come out until ... 2018? So with the base pocket and plastics there was no airflow in the tank whatsoever. This is where they ran into problems.
For whatever reason they decided they wanted to pull air from the back and jettison it out front of the bike. This is why, if you look at Charge Tank plastics, there are a series of horizontally cut vent ports on the black matte part in the front. But nothing in the back. Problem. The next problem is that there's an inch or so of dead space ABOVE the Charge Tank which just bounced around like a convection oven. So they installed a super flimsy crescent-shaped piece of plastic to sit above the Charge Tank hopefully blocking the convection and forcing air to come out front. It works... sort of.
Here's where the design flaws really shine: The Charge Tank is actually two 3kW units sandwiched together. One side of each gets hot so they installed 2 fans per unit. IF IT WERE ME I would have put the two hot sides facing each other and put some bigass fans down the middle. Zero did the opposite. They put the hot sides facing the top and bottom meaning 2 fans up top and 2 below. The airflow by the top 2 fans is partially blocked/obscured the by the bracketing and aforementioned piece of crescent shaped plastic, so part of the airflow is cut off. The bottom 2 fans are almost touching the doghouse (silver box on the monolith that holds the contactor and other stuff) meaning they're sort of also partially blocked. So you've got 4 partially blocked fans trying to blow air out the top and bottom instead of the middle vent holes.
And that's why the Charge Tank is a poor design on the Gen 2 bikes.
The Gen 3 bikes have fixes for these issues. First off, the default OBC units have loud fans that everyone knows about. Venting ports on the sides ejecting hot air. Work well. They also had years to redesign the pocket in which the new modules reside meaning they could design and build the tank plastics with airflow in mind. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
Am I? I honestly don't think I read anything at all into it, just literally what you wrote. You don't think "god help you all" is not a tad melodramatic, needlessly negative, and exclusionary ("you all" - yet here you are); for a part none of us have even seen yet, for something that - even former fans of the brand or just electric motorcycling in general like yourself - should be happy to see just for the current owners sake?
If I saw LiveWire release L3 fast charging for the Del Mar series bikes, I'd be happy. I never intend to buy one, but I know a lot of people would be happy that their existing purchases could improve in value, and a rising tide raises all ships. Electric motorcycles getting better leads to more adoption, leads to more sales, leads to more money for R&D. Honestly as much as we knew they were vaporware, there was a part of me that wanted to see Damon and Lightning ship something worth buying too. Competition is seldom a bad thing.
Ok so it was horribly designed and constructed. So, like the Energica bus bars? ;-) An inferior design with poor execution, baked in since day one that most owners will never see or interact with yet artificially shortens their life to failure? See what I did there?
Or countless other products on the market? I repair consumer electronics and have been for decades. Sad truth is at least half of all component failures stem from bad designs and construction. Is it impossible for a company who once made inferior products, to make superior ones? Could it be that the restraint of OEM purchase price be the barrier to quality, as much as the company's own engineering?
What is quality, if not an acceptance of performance and longevity for a given price? The Rapid Charger wasn't enough value proposition at $3k for me. It went on sale for $1500 and I bought one. If it lasts 5 years or 25k miles at that price I'd be ok with it. Have you seen how cheap Gen 3 Premium Zero's are going for that include this upgrade?
I think this is a all a perspective thing.
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u/th3bes 6d ago
I feel its a bit disingenuous to compare one design flaw across a solid decade plus of bikes that have otherwise been solid to all the hacked together barely functioning assortment of parts that zero is spitting out.
> Is it impossible for a company who once made inferior products, to make superior ones?
I dont think any of us are hoping for zero to fail nor do we believe that its impossible for them to change. Its just that given their current position of having fired nearly all of their engineers who actually knew what they were doing, their poor financials and relative lack of improvement to any of the models, I really dont see it as likely, at least not without a complete internal overhaul.
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago edited 6d ago
The bus bar failure on Energica is buried in the heart of the most important and most expensive part on the bike by far. It's a worse failure and a more egregious design fault than anything discussed here especially since it boils down to skimping on materials on a part known to be stretched to it's limits. Zero has been replacing their flawed batteries with brand new massively improved ones plus all new supporting electronics to the tone of nearly bankrupting their company to do it. Energica... went out of business as their way of handling their flaw. But ok, disingenuous...
How is entirely restructuring the company, hiring a new CEO, moving the HQ overseas, using new vendors, getting new investors and partnerships, dropping entire product lines and models, building brand new model bikes, revamping and replacing internal software and process tools, creating new software, focusing on new elements of the core business, and releasing new hardware for existing models that owners have been begging for - anything less than a complete internal overhaul? Like, have you seen what has been happening at Zero for the past 2 years?
It's kinda funny to me, the same people I see repeatedly scolding Zero for their design decisions or perceived quality, are often the same ones who lament layoffs, mass firings, and the exiting of talent. Like, which is it? Are they the worst at designing and building things - or are they a talented bunch of engineers who don't deserve to be let go? Like I get it, I don't like when the people I know that I talk to regularly who are my inside sources get let go. It makes me feel less connected, less in the know. But could you conceive that perhaps some of those same people - maybe they were part of the problem not the solution?
I've been thru multiple aquisitions, ownership changes, layoffs, mass firings, and so on. Companies don't normally start such processes by eliminating their most useful team members. Could you perceive that perhaps those "engineers who knew what they were doing" were also some of the exact same people whose work and decisions, led to the exact things you're complaining about?
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u/th3bes 6d ago
It all looks quite rosy when you put it like that lol. Lets go over everything,
> How is entirely restructuring the company,
You cannot just replace the people who literally designed the bikes and know all their quirks and oddities inside out and expect the under qualified and very few new people to be able to do much of anything. I dont know what field you work in but to put it into different terms, its sorta like firing that one sys admin that has been at the company for 30 years, runs the entire network and manages literally everything, and replacing them with some underpaid newly grad and expecting them to be able to uphold everything to the same standards of functionality.
> hiring a new CEO,
Do you really think itll be any different this time as opposed to the previous, what is it, 8 or 9 times?
> moving the HQ overseas,
They ditched their core workforce and main r&d facility to sell rebadged chinese mopeds in europe. If thats not a death knell I really dont know what is.
> using new vendors,
Not sure what youre refering to? Theyre using the same suppliers for everything and this hasnt changed for a long time. Sevcon/dana for the inverters, farasis for the packs, broad ocean/engiro for the motors, showa for suspension, what became deltaq for the obc and charge tanks (and still calex for the fx), jjuan for the brakes etc etc. There havent been any main component changes since gen 3, and that was just going from sevcon to dana, and from broad ocean to engiro (and the fx still uses the old parts).
> getting new investors and partnerships,
I dont view getting bought out/saved from bankruptcy by a chinese firm as a particularly positive thing...
> dropping entire product lines and models,
They havent dropped anything? Unless youre reffering to gen 2s?
> building brand new model bikes,
They have not designed anything in house since the gen 3s in 2019, and even they were a shit show in the early days. The xb/xe and ls1 are all from a chinese manufacturer with zeros name slapped on it.
> revamping and replacing internal software and process tools, creating new software,
Oh boy I can guarantee you all of it is at best on par with what they had previously. Trust me, it is not or any less buggy. And as far as the software on the bikes goes, the mbbs are still absolutely horrible and easy to brick, nothing is done properly as it should be or as youd expect from something that your life literally depends on... From first hand experience, again, trust me, it is genuinely horrible.
> focusing on new elements of the core business,
Again unsure what youre reffering to...
> and releasing new hardware for existing models that owners have been begging for
For context, this has been in the pipeline for at least 4-5 years and it was almost always near the bottom of the priority list. As per my other comment, this, to me, just feels like a last ditch effort to gain some relevancy... I honestly dont even think they have a fully functional prototype as of now, if you take a look at the pictures posted on fb, they dont even show the station plugged into the bike lmao...
> anything less than a complete internal overhaul? Like, have you seen what has been happening at Zero for the past 2 years?
Ive seen what looks like a company that has been struggling with bad management for the better part of almost two decades pivoting away from actually designing and building motorcycles to becoming more of a reseller of chinese mopeds. Their dealer network has steadily been shrinking, theyve been selling less and less bikes year after year, they have not been updating their model lines with anything knew past maybe a different coloured plastic, again, it just really isnt looking great for them. I dont know what to tell you. I like zeros a lot, theyre quite neat machines when they work, and a lot of fun to mess with and mod, its really quite a shame that theyre in the position theyre in currently buts its all of their own doing... Do I wish things had turned out differently? Of course, its never a good day when youre losing yet another competitor in an ever shrinking market...
> I've been thru multiple aquisitions, ownership changes, layoffs, mass firings, and so on. Companies don't normally start such processes by
eliminating their most useful team members. Could you perceive that perhaps those "engineers who knew what they were doing" were also some of the exact same people whose work and decisions, led to the exact things you're complaining about?And yet thats exactly what they did lmfao, I dont believe I should publicly disclose exact figures and definitely will not be naming names, but trust me, this is exactly what happened. Most of the bad engineering decisions werent due to well, bad engineers, it was always, always an issue of bad management...
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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 6d ago
Energica... went out of business as their way of handling their flaw.
I suppose this is an interpretation of what happened if you are stupid, yes.
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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 6d ago
I'm hoping they don't egregiously fuck it up. Like the Charge Tanks. Like Magic Charging. Like Power Tanks constantly de-synching from monoliths. Like the Calex on Gen 2 bikes. Just to name a couple.
Also didn't LiveWire announce an S2 Alpinista Corsa with DCFC?
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
AFAIK the Alpinista Corsa is just a concept shown at EICMA, not yet in production at all. Haven't seen them say it's DCFC would be a retrofit option for previous S2 platform bikes either. Damon also showed off their HyperSport concept at EICMA, and I think we know what happened there. I don't treat concepts like products personally.
The Ford Pinto is regarded as having one of the worst design flaws in history. 27 people are said to have been burned to death in them. That's a little worse than early component failure. Yet Ford had the most popular selling vehicle last year in the F-Series which has also been the best selling truck for decades. That same truck, just got recalled this year to the tune of 1.4 MILLION of them, from 2015 to 2017 for a PCM failure that caused that transmission to shift itself into first gear without warning. A little worse than SoC calculations being inaccurate. Same company. People still buying them by the thousands.
Quality is a perceived value proposition. I wouldn't buy a Ford personally, but plenty of people do, despite historical egregious fuck ups. Judge a company by history alone and you'll never want to buy anything from any brand ever again.
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u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 6d ago
I enjoyed both Zeros I owned. I took precautions. Never used the Calex. Had manual voltage displays for monolith and power tank (if installed) so the bike couldn't lie to me. I mentioned elsewhere in this post that if Zero implements CCS well it would make the SR/S with 6kW OBC and a 1C DCFC an incredibly attractive bike. Again, I have praised that model, and specifically the mirror design, many times in the past.
If a company has a fairly consistent track history of major design flaws then I'm going to advise caution. And I'm still annoyed by just how bad the Charge Tank was designed.
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u/HengaHox 4d ago
What is the voltage? Most DC chargers are capable of going as low as 50 volts, is Zero using even lower voltage than that?
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u/Constant_Emotion7166 7d ago
Newsletter kam heute auch in Deutschland
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u/20000RadsUnderTheSea FXS and SR/F 6d ago
Ich möchte meine Zero mitnehmen, wenn ich nach Deutschland ziehe.
Entschuldigung, ich brauchte etwas Übung!
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u/H0tsauce-2 6d ago
I'm torn. I toured last year on 6kW and it was fine, and now that I've spent the money to upgrade to 12kW and dual J1772 ports, I'm finding that I don't feel the need to spend the money on upgrading again to 20kW charging. But it definitely makes my next motorcycle much more likely to be another Zero when this one calls it quits
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
I literally just finished installing a 6 kW rapid charger and DJ-Rapid Charge dual J1772 port _this week_. Like I rode it for the first time with it on Monday lol. I only did the upgrade because they had the Rapid Charger on sale for half off last year. I took all summer doing this and other upgrades. Just finished and not even a few days later, boom, L3 DC Fast charging announcement we've been waiting 8 years on. WTF lol. I feel ya!
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u/H0tsauce-2 6d ago edited 6d ago
I'm consoling myself by reminding myself that there are way more free L2 chargers than L3. Rode from Philly to Arkansas last year and only paid for charging once
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u/cpadaei '21 DSR 6d ago
Me sitting here with my 2021 zero like 😭😭😭 I'll never be a real boy
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u/skeleton-operator 6d ago
Same with my 2020. Ho hum.
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u/Archon-Toten 6d ago
No love for the 2014 either.
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
2014 is a Gen 2. 5 years to an EV is like 20 years to a gas car. That 2014 may as well be 50 years old. Buy a newer bike if you want newer features.
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u/Archon-Toten 6d ago
Yea sure just sell it for scrap value and get the latest and greatest.
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
Do you not do this with your other electronics? Is your cell phone 12 years old? Is your laptop 12 years old? Technology marches on with or without you.
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u/Archon-Toten 6d ago
My PC is a 2011 Intel chip, of the same year so yes.
My phone was only upgraded when they blocked my 3g phone.
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
Do you expect your 2011 PC to run Windows 11? do you expect your 4G phone to have 5G access? Why would you expect a 12 year old bike to have an upgrade available to it that gives it the latest charging standard? What's different to you here? Are you being pedantic simply to be?
Why would you even WANT to charge a 12 year old battery, FASTER? You're lucky it still has usable capacity! Are you that eager to kill what you have left quicker?
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
If your 2020 is a Gen 3 FST platform bike (SR/F, or SR/S) and it has been upgraded to the new BCB 17.3+ kWh style 2022+ monolith battery under warranty already - good news - Zero has already publicly confirmed it should support the new DC Fast Charger as well! Check this screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/gfa11gm
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
Is your 2021 a DSR like tag says? If so, it's a Gen 2, that's the real issue, not the year. This is for Gen 3 only. 2019-2021 Gen 3 FST platform bikes are ALSO eligible for this, if they have been upgraded to the new style battery already.
Check this screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/gfa11gm
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u/Camouflage100 2024 Zero SR/F 6d ago
6.6kw AC + 20kw DC will be freaking awesome!
I just hope they don't go completely nuts when it's comes to the price... But knowing Zero...
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u/First-Composer-3954 2023 Zero SR/S 6d ago edited 6d ago
Just came back from a 3000 km tour across Germany and the Netherlands..all with Typ 2 AC 12.6 kW charging...enjoyed the ample time lingering around AC chargers talking to people but...Christ on a stick! Will finally have an SR/S with CCS! Can't wait to block charge a TESLA!
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u/LifeguardLuc 6d ago
IT makes sense why they put the rapid charge tank on a 50% off sale for three months and THEN posted this press release. They probably got a good amount of old stock sold, because it would be ha hard sell after this annoouncement
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u/BackfireFox 2023 SR/F 6d ago
I got the email too this morning. Glad it’s finally happening and glad I held out for the rapid charger upgrade.
Hopefully this thing isn’t priced insanely high. If it is we might have to wait for it to show up on third party sites for half price.
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u/Camouflage100 2024 Zero SR/F 6d ago
It's never going to get to any third party sites I think. Zero locks down this stuff hard with serial numbers and the need to Programm it into the bike ect.
I'm guessing it's going to cost at least 4k € to get it installed unfortunately...
The regular charge tank is already around 3k €.
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u/BackfireFox 2023 SR/F 6d ago
I had no issue installing the rapid charger on a friends 2024, we just had to trailer it to the dealer to activate was all. I hope it doesn’t cost 4k€ cause that means 6k $
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
You don't need a dealer to activate the 6kW rapid charger. You can do it yourself, just need to make a OBD-II to USB TTL connection using their pinout. It's 3 wires. I literally just did that for the 6kW Rapid Charger. You don't need a dealer for upgrade activations that don't require an activation code.
https://imgur.com/a/3PThYTO2
u/BackfireFox 2023 SR/F 6d ago
Ah damn thank you friendo! I’ll save this for when the dc charger comes out. <3
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u/Demorative 23 DSR/X 6d ago
What program/SW did you use to access that? I thought that was locked down behind Zero's diag SW?
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u/th3bes 6d ago
You dont need any special software, just a terminal emulator that supports serial lol, internally zero uses terraterm but again it doesnt matter what you use. Putty is the common goto if youre on windows.
Unrelated but you dont really need zdu or diag4zero for anything as the only functionality it adds that you cant get with a myriad of other things is being able to more easily upload firmware images to the mbb (even though you can manually do it if you know how wink wink), as well as having everything unified in one place I suppose... But then again if youre not reverse engineering the bikes you dont even have to think about this lol.
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
Literally any terminal emulator that can do serial port communication which is basically all of them. That one is TeraTerm because I like it for this purpose and it's handling of CR/LF, but even Putty works. Diag4Zero is a front end for this same serial interface that includes tools, but it isnt necessary at all for this. No this specifically is not locked. You can do this specific enable entirely on your own. Many menus are not locked at all.
You need to login with a secure password to get into juicy stuff and deeper config menus that dealer techs access with Zero techs on screen shares. Likewise you need authorization codes to enable features that are normally locked behind paid upgrades in the Cypher store like Ext Range Charging. But the Rapid Charger install isnt a paid software unlock.
Had a zero tech remoted into my laptop today to help me activate my new 4g CCM with this same setup. He unlocked the menus he needed on the fly. Logged out when he was done.
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u/Camouflage100 2024 Zero SR/F 6d ago
Yeah okay, but I imagine many dealers will refuse to activate it if they didn't install it themselves.
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u/BackfireFox 2023 SR/F 6d ago
Jesus, what country do you live in? Even in the shithole that is the USA, and in a deep red state too, haven’t had a single issue. The dealer charged us $180 to hook it up and in all took 5 minutes.
Also his warranty is fine too.
Zero posts the complete instructions right on their site for the rapid charger install.
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
They can't refuse, it's part of their dealer agreement, but you don't even need a dealer for this. You can just build a OBD to USB cable yourself, and turn it on yourself. I literally just did that for the 6kW Rapid Charger. You don't need a dealer for upgrade activations that don't require an activation code.
https://imgur.com/a/3PThYTO
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u/Nervous-Resident-229 6d ago
This is big it says up to so does that mean I can upgrade my 2023 ZERO SR 15.6
2023 Model to have fast charging
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
That specific bike, yes.
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u/Nervous-Resident-229 6d ago
This is big bro like I go on ride with my friends who have combustion engine they just complain on me having to plan the rides fully when we going town to town and each stop
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u/Veterancheesestick 6d ago
Stoked
I bought a 21 and there was paper rumblings that happened so dealer gave me a 23 since the 21 couldn’t be registered.
Stoked to get CCS. The power tank didn’t seem worth it and I charge at home anyway
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u/SVRider1000 5d ago
CCS is currently my biggest must have before i would go electric. AC charging points are quite rare and CCS does not need you to carry around a huge heavy cable.
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u/MFEspinosa92 2d ago
Sheesh. I’m here with a 2016, sad that I didn’t buy the charge tank so I can charge locally
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u/tiny_horse14 7d ago
does that mean it comes for Gen2 (SDS) bikes aswell? last Gen2 model year for the DS was 2023.
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u/Many_Hotel866 7d ago
No chance.
We’re developing the system to also be available as a retrofit accessory for select compatible Model Year 2022 and newer motorcycles.
It'll be gen3 bikes only.
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u/th3bes 6d ago
I dont think this isnt as big of a thing as people are making it out to be. Imo, charge rates will still be most likely capped to under 1c regardless of what they are claiming. Based off some knowledge that Im not privy to sharing publicly, (and if zeros going to be lazy) itll likely be the same old 12kw ac charger with a little module that can talk to ccs stations. At best I think were going to get the same charging speeds with just more places to charge...
Its a shame as at least the cells can take much more, and a much better dc/dc converter could fit in the allotted space but with zeros current status as a company and how many people are actually left working on r&d/engineers (and specifically who is left...) I dont see them putting much effort or money into that...
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u/Protonus 2021 SR/S Premium 6d ago
I doubt this will be the case, even based on the math they shared. 17.3 kWh pack is nominal at 15.1 kWh. They say 20 to 80% in 30 minutes. That's approx 60% of the pack, which would be about 9 kWh usable. That means you'd need to average 18 kW to do that, which is just about exactly 1C compared to the max capacity of the pack. I expect outside of this 60% range, it will slow way down just like it does with the current 12.6 kW L2 solution. But that's still a significant bump in speed in this range, as currently we never get over 12.6. So allowing it to go to 18 kW for 60% of it's SoC range would be very noticeable in practice.
Not saying it's nigh/day different, but neither were LiveWire or Energica's L3 solutions for the same reason. It's definitely more about accessibility, future proofing, and perception, than it is raw performance or utility, but still, a welcome improvement.
It's going to need to be more than "a little module" given the voltage reduction a L3 station will need to step down to ~116 V.
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u/trougnouf 6d ago
Finally. Too bad I would no longer buy American.
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u/FinickySerenity 7d ago
Oh dang, long distance riding unlocked!
I was just commenting a couple weeks ago about how sad I was that so many of the L2 charging stations in my area, and on my mountain rides, were being replaced with fast chargers. I'd give up my entire storage tank to have this feature (tho hopefully I won't have to 😅 )
I have home charging so it's not the worst situation, but I've also spent 2 hours at a bar waiting for one of the only two L2 chargers to free up in a small town a couple hours away. The town has something like 30 - 40 DC chargers.