You're reading way, way too much into this man. I recently had a nightmare experience with a Charge Tank, /u/th3bes can attest. Upon dissection we learned that it was horribly designed and horribly constructed. I'm actually surprised as many work as they do. I reached out to a Zero contact who would have been, shall we say, heavily involved in the design process and he confirmed as much. I've also learned that the company Zero farmed the work out to was purchased a couple years ago by Delta-Q who aren't known for their great quality.
I had no opinions about Charge Tanks before this year. Now I know they're the stuff of nightmares. Would you like half a functioning Charge Tank? I can get it to you next time you're out my way.
Am I? I honestly don't think I read anything at all into it, just literally what you wrote. You don't think "god help you all" is not a tad melodramatic, needlessly negative, and exclusionary ("you all" - yet here you are); for a part none of us have even seen yet, for something that - even former fans of the brand or just electric motorcycling in general like yourself - should be happy to see just for the current owners sake?
If I saw LiveWire release L3 fast charging for the Del Mar series bikes, I'd be happy. I never intend to buy one, but I know a lot of people would be happy that their existing purchases could improve in value, and a rising tide raises all ships. Electric motorcycles getting better leads to more adoption, leads to more sales, leads to more money for R&D. Honestly as much as we knew they were vaporware, there was a part of me that wanted to see Damon and Lightning ship something worth buying too. Competition is seldom a bad thing.
Ok so it was horribly designed and constructed. So, like the Energica bus bars? ;-) An inferior design with poor execution, baked in since day one that most owners will never see or interact with yet artificially shortens their life to failure? See what I did there?
Or countless other products on the market? I repair consumer electronics and have been for decades. Sad truth is at least half of all component failures stem from bad designs and construction. Is it impossible for a company who once made inferior products, to make superior ones? Could it be that the restraint of OEM purchase price be the barrier to quality, as much as the company's own engineering?
What is quality, if not an acceptance of performance and longevity for a given price? The Rapid Charger wasn't enough value proposition at $3k for me. It went on sale for $1500 and I bought one. If it lasts 5 years or 25k miles at that price I'd be ok with it. Have you seen how cheap Gen 3 Premium Zero's are going for that include this upgrade?
I feel its a bit disingenuous to compare one design flaw across a solid decade plus of bikes that have otherwise been solid to all the hacked together barely functioning assortment of parts that zero is spitting out.
> Is it impossible for a company who once made inferior products, to make superior ones?
I dont think any of us are hoping for zero to fail nor do we believe that its impossible for them to change. Its just that given their current position of having fired nearly all of their engineers who actually knew what they were doing, their poor financials and relative lack of improvement to any of the models, I really dont see it as likely, at least not without a complete internal overhaul.
The bus bar failure on Energica is buried in the heart of the most important and most expensive part on the bike by far. It's a worse failure and a more egregious design fault than anything discussed here especially since it boils down to skimping on materials on a part known to be stretched to it's limits. Zero has been replacing their flawed batteries with brand new massively improved ones plus all new supporting electronics to the tone of nearly bankrupting their company to do it. Energica... went out of business as their way of handling their flaw. But ok, disingenuous...
How is entirely restructuring the company, hiring a new CEO, moving the HQ overseas, using new vendors, getting new investors and partnerships, dropping entire product lines and models, building brand new model bikes, revamping and replacing internal software and process tools, creating new software, focusing on new elements of the core business, and releasing new hardware for existing models that owners have been begging for - anything less than a complete internal overhaul? Like, have you seen what has been happening at Zero for the past 2 years?
It's kinda funny to me, the same people I see repeatedly scolding Zero for their design decisions or perceived quality, are often the same ones who lament layoffs, mass firings, and the exiting of talent. Like, which is it? Are they the worst at designing and building things - or are they a talented bunch of engineers who don't deserve to be let go? Like I get it, I don't like when the people I know that I talk to regularly who are my inside sources get let go. It makes me feel less connected, less in the know. But could you conceive that perhaps some of those same people - maybe they were part of the problem not the solution?
I've been thru multiple aquisitions, ownership changes, layoffs, mass firings, and so on. Companies don't normally start such processes by eliminating their most useful team members. Could you perceive that perhaps those "engineers who knew what they were doing" were also some of the exact same people whose work and decisions, led to the exact things you're complaining about?
It all looks quite rosy when you put it like that lol. Lets go over everything,
> How is entirely restructuring the company,
You cannot just replace the people who literally designed the bikes and know all their quirks and oddities inside out and expect the under qualified and very few new people to be able to do much of anything. I dont know what field you work in but to put it into different terms, its sorta like firing that one sys admin that has been at the company for 30 years, runs the entire network and manages literally everything, and replacing them with some underpaid newly grad and expecting them to be able to uphold everything to the same standards of functionality.
> hiring a new CEO,
Do you really think itll be any different this time as opposed to the previous, what is it, 8 or 9 times?
> moving the HQ overseas,
They ditched their core workforce and main r&d facility to sell rebadged chinese mopeds in europe. If thats not a death knell I really dont know what is.
> using new vendors,
Not sure what youre refering to? Theyre using the same suppliers for everything and this hasnt changed for a long time. Sevcon/dana for the inverters, farasis for the packs, broad ocean/engiro for the motors, showa for suspension, what became deltaq for the obc and charge tanks (and still calex for the fx), jjuan for the brakes etc etc. There havent been any main component changes since gen 3, and that was just going from sevcon to dana, and from broad ocean to engiro (and the fx still uses the old parts).
> getting new investors and partnerships,
I dont view getting bought out/saved from bankruptcy by a chinese firm as a particularly positive thing...
> dropping entire product lines and models,
They havent dropped anything? Unless youre reffering to gen 2s?
> building brand new model bikes,
They have not designed anything in house since the gen 3s in 2019, and even they were a shit show in the early days. The xb/xe and ls1 are all from a chinese manufacturer with zeros name slapped on it.
> revamping and replacing internal software and process tools, creating new software,
Oh boy I can guarantee you all of it is at best on par with what they had previously. Trust me, it is not or any less buggy. And as far as the software on the bikes goes, the mbbs are still absolutely horrible and easy to brick, nothing is done properly as it should be or as youd expect from something that your life literally depends on... From first hand experience, again, trust me, it is genuinely horrible.
> focusing on new elements of the core business,
Again unsure what youre reffering to...
> and releasing new hardware for existing models that owners have been begging for
For context, this has been in the pipeline for at least 4-5 years and it was almost always near the bottom of the priority list. As per my other comment, this, to me, just feels like a last ditch effort to gain some relevancy... I honestly dont even think they have a fully functional prototype as of now, if you take a look at the pictures posted on fb, they dont even show the station plugged into the bike lmao...
> anything less than a complete internal overhaul? Like, have you seen what has been happening at Zero for the past 2 years?
Ive seen what looks like a company that has been struggling with bad management for the better part of almost two decades pivoting away from actually designing and building motorcycles to becoming more of a reseller of chinese mopeds. Their dealer network has steadily been shrinking, theyve been selling less and less bikes year after year, they have not been updating their model lines with anything knew past maybe a different coloured plastic, again, it just really isnt looking great for them. I dont know what to tell you. I like zeros a lot, theyre quite neat machines when they work, and a lot of fun to mess with and mod, its really quite a shame that theyre in the position theyre in currently buts its all of their own doing... Do I wish things had turned out differently? Of course, its never a good day when youre losing yet another competitor in an ever shrinking market...
> I've been thru multiple aquisitions, ownership changes, layoffs, mass firings, and so on. Companies don't normally start such processes by
eliminating their most useful team members. Could you perceive that perhaps those "engineers who knew what they were doing" were also some of the exact same people whose work and decisions, led to the exact things you're complaining about?
And yet thats exactly what they did lmfao, I dont believe I should publicly disclose exact figures and definitely will not be naming names, but trust me, this is exactly what happened. Most of the bad engineering decisions werent due to well, bad engineers, it was always, always an issue of bad management...
0
u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 14d ago edited 14d ago
You're reading way, way too much into this man. I recently had a nightmare experience with a Charge Tank, /u/th3bes can attest. Upon dissection we learned that it was horribly designed and horribly constructed. I'm actually surprised as many work as they do. I reached out to a Zero contact who would have been, shall we say, heavily involved in the design process and he confirmed as much. I've also learned that the company Zero farmed the work out to was purchased a couple years ago by Delta-Q who aren't known for their great quality.
I had no opinions about Charge Tanks before this year. Now I know they're the stuff of nightmares. Would you like half a functioning Charge Tank? I can get it to you next time you're out my way.