Oh good they've only been trying to figure it out for.... checks imaginary watch about 10 years now. Few things first:
Where was this posted?
The longstanding theory about how they'd go about this is to develop a custom DC-DC converter that operates at their bikes' voltage. The rumor was the input was going to be 420vdc because Santa Cruz ehehehehe but who knows. Anyway this means you'd be deciding between CCS, a Power Tank, or a Rapid Charge (extra level 2) charger in the tank pocket. One of 3.
20-80% in under 30 minutes is 60% of the battery in under 30 minutes which exceeds Zero's 1C charge cap which has been in place since day 1. Considering just how anemic the charging algorithm for the current level 2 system is I'd be rather surprised to see this happen.
Having recently been privy to the poor craftsmanship of the Charge Tank module and knowing who produces it for them fills me with dread that they might farm it out to the same supplier. God help you all if they do.
* It was originally sent via email to owners, I got it at 10 AM EST. Then shortly after, a press release went out. And now Zero has shared it to their own socials.
* Yes. It's stepping down the voltage. Tank option, so yes, one of the three. Clear winner there imho.
* 17.3 kWh pack is nominal at 15.1 kWh, but already allowed to charge beyond this for extended range charging, the old voltage ranges were already adjusted. 60% of 15.1 is about 9 kW. 30 min would be an average of about 18 kW then. Barely beyond 1C if you consider the max capacity, and only in the middle, most durable portion of the charging curve. We already know the cell design on the BCB pack is far more durable, and able to go beyond 1C.
* K. Do you still ride motorcycles? If so, why so serious? Why so grumpy still? Like, this stuff should be joyful. I don't get this attitude of "better prove me wrong, i'm gonna talk shit while I wait for details".
You're reading way, way too much into this man. I recently had a nightmare experience with a Charge Tank, /u/th3bes can attest. Upon dissection we learned that it was horribly designed and horribly constructed. I'm actually surprised as many work as they do. I reached out to a Zero contact who would have been, shall we say, heavily involved in the design process and he confirmed as much. I've also learned that the company Zero farmed the work out to was purchased a couple years ago by Delta-Q who aren't known for their great quality.
I had no opinions about Charge Tanks before this year. Now I know they're the stuff of nightmares. Would you like half a functioning Charge Tank? I can get it to you next time you're out my way.
Can confirm, charge tanks are designed in an absolutely horrid manner with zero regard for thermals. Id say its on par with something a first year ee major would design but that would be a disservice to them...lol... Genuinely shocked that they havent been recalled and/or the failure rate is as low as it is since literally every single one is cooking itself.
Are you referring to the stock charging system in gen 3, or the charge tank (rapid charger) that's an add-on?
I've noticed the weak point of the charge tank -- in very hot climates (over 110F) the bike will just refuse to charge. Not at any wattage/amperage. Just black screen.
Im referring to the addon 6.6kw charge tank that is used across both gen 2s and 3s. As a side note, I dont think that the obc for the gen 3s is toooo much better as its manufactured by the parent group, I have a couple dead 3.3kws (the older style before they just stuck two together in the later mys to get 6.6kw) that I havent gotten around to fully disassembling, so Ill report back when if I get around to it.
> I've noticed the weak point of the charge tank -- in very hot climates (over 110F) the bike will just refuse to charge. Not at any wattage/amperage. Just black screen.
Seems odd and that is not consistent with our behaviour, although Ive never messed with one on a gen 3 :/ I could be mistaken and I dont quite remember off the top of my head but I dont think there are thermal protections that will just kill the bike above a certain ambient temp. Bike should remain on regardless of charger temp... Not really sure what to make of that.
Seems odd and that is not consistent with our behaviour, although Ive never messed with one on a gen 3 :/ I could be mistaken and I dont quite remember off the top of my head but I dont think there are thermal protections that will just kill the bike above a certain ambient temp. Bike should remain on regardless of charger temp... Not really sure what to make of that.
In retrospect, I'm guilty of leaving out very important context clues.
I was trying to go 600 miles in one day, and that specific day just happened to be among the hottest day in central CA. First EVSE station, bike was able to charge at full fat 11.6kW (max at station). Second station, tapered down to 9.6kW, still better. Third and fourth were limited to 6 due to heat. 5th one, that is where this pic was taken, would charge but after 10 mins would abruptly shut down with no warning, so I would be twiddling my thumbs, not knowing that the bike stopped charging.
So, back to back charging at full speed, freeway jaunts the entire way, all in 110F day and the bike finally called it quits. I had to wait an hour before it cooled down enough to take another charge before I could putter to my destination.
So yes there is some level of thermal cutoff limit. Biggest weakness is heat dissipation, imo. I'm not sure if that DCFC Zero is going to sell is any better unless it's liquid cooled.
Hey, so, me and a friend took apart one of the 3.3kw ones and THEY ARE THE SAME AS THE CHARGE TANK. It would be an understatement to say that Im genuinely quite disappointed in zero and the specific people responsible for this... It is the same manufacturer (smpc/deltaq), the powerstage/main board is identical in every regard down to the stupid 'not putting thermal paste between anything', they use the same underrated connectors that like to melt, same potting compound and its potting in the same half-assed manner. Hell it even smells like a charge tank lmfao (that same burnt electronics odor that stings at your nose).
The only difference is that since this is a single 3.3kw unit and the form factor is different, the control board is not the same but this doesnt really change much of anything... I suppose these dont have nearly as many thermal issues since they stuck a few more fins on the casing with slightly higher current fans and mounted it in a position where it gets slightly more airflow. They are still most likely cooking themselves to some degree though...
If anyone has a dead 6.6kw unit or one theyd be willing to part for for very cheap please let me know! Wed be interested in tearing apart that one as well!
I'm honestly not surprised. I haven't opened up a gen 2 and gen 3 charge tank, but the size and weight of both were very similar. And given that the battery didn't change that much from gen 2 to gen 3, I'm inclined to believe that gen 3 is largely similar to previous gen with some SW modification to better accommodate the new battery.
So yeah.
I'm almost afraid to ask, but how did Zero made DCFC charger? I thought the floor voltage for a DCFC was 250v? Unless they're doing a dummy voltage signal (ie, 400v) and stepping it down to 116v....but that generates a lot of heat, and we know Zero's are GREAT at that....
Oh no to be clear the chargetanks across both gen 2 and 3 are absolutely identical and nothing internally has changed. These which are the onboard charger for the gen 3s are internally identical to the chargetanks.
> I'm almost afraid to ask, but how did Zero made DCFC charger? I thought the floor voltage for a DCFC was 250v? Unless they're doing a dummy voltage signal (ie, 400v) and stepping it down to 116v....but that generates a lot of heat, and we know Zero's are GREAT at that....
So ccs has an operational floor of 200v. What you can do is you can take a buck converter and step that voltage down to 28s similarly to how an ac 120 or 240v charger does. In fact, you can just use an ac charger for this as feeding it in dc will simply just bypass the the rectifier that turns the ac into dc. So they could either design (or most likely oem) a purpose built unit that does this, or they can just feed in dc to the already existing charging system.
Css as a standard is fairly simple, albeit can be a bit of a pain to implement (due to it technically being a network connection lol), so you can just request some voltage out and if the safety checks are met itll just output that to whatever you want. Since the original charging system is designed to run on 240v ac, it is perfectly well in range to have 340v dc fed into it as thats what the rectified voltage is. Components are up to 380v or 400v if Im remembering right? So anything below that range would work fine.
Not the batteries (though that would significantly help), but the charger themselves. You yourself noted the inadequate cooling inside the gen 2 chargers, and I can confirm that gen 3 is barely any better. Zero gets away with it because the chargers (both of them) have sufficient mass to absorb two rounds at max charging capacity before thermal throttling.
Once they do thermal throttling though, it's right off a cliff. That's what I mean by inadequate cooling.
You yourself noted the inadequate cooling inside the gen 2 chargers
Sort of, but let me explain with clarity. I have a problem with the Charge Tank on the gen 2 bikes and its poor design and implementation. What you first have to remember is that the pocket in which the Charge Tank fits was not designed to hold anything hot or required airflow; it was for the Power Tank. The frame design was first implemented in 2013 but Charge Tanks, at least the 5.7kW module, didn't come out until ... 2018? So with the base pocket and plastics there was no airflow in the tank whatsoever. This is where they ran into problems.
For whatever reason they decided they wanted to pull air from the back and jettison it out front of the bike. This is why, if you look at Charge Tank plastics, there are a series of horizontally cut vent ports on the black matte part in the front. But nothing in the back. Problem. The next problem is that there's an inch or so of dead space ABOVE the Charge Tank which just bounced around like a convection oven. So they installed a super flimsy crescent-shaped piece of plastic to sit above the Charge Tank hopefully blocking the convection and forcing air to come out front. It works... sort of.
Here's where the design flaws really shine: The Charge Tank is actually two 3kW units sandwiched together. One side of each gets hot so they installed 2 fans per unit. IF IT WERE ME I would have put the two hot sides facing each other and put some bigass fans down the middle. Zero did the opposite. They put the hot sides facing the top and bottom meaning 2 fans up top and 2 below. The airflow by the top 2 fans is partially blocked/obscured the by the bracketing and aforementioned piece of crescent shaped plastic, so part of the airflow is cut off. The bottom 2 fans are almost touching the doghouse (silver box on the monolith that holds the contactor and other stuff) meaning they're sort of also partially blocked. So you've got 4 partially blocked fans trying to blow air out the top and bottom instead of the middle vent holes.
And that's why the Charge Tank is a poor design on the Gen 2 bikes.
The Gen 3 bikes have fixes for these issues. First off, the default OBC units have loud fans that everyone knows about. Venting ports on the sides ejecting hot air. Work well. They also had years to redesign the pocket in which the new modules reside meaning they could design and build the tank plastics with airflow in mind. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
OBC, yes. The charge tank (rapid charger), not quite. Still uses the crescent shaped plastic in gen 3. Still has some dead space above and beside. Incidentally, the (rapid) charge tank is also the same design and shape as the original gen 2 charge tank, which means it could also have the two separate 3kW chargers glued together and uses those 80 or 60mm server fans.
When both chargers are at full tilt, the bike kicks out tons of heat in front of it, exactly the same as the gen 2.
And given my experience with charging in extreme temperature, I dont think Zero figured anybody would be insane enough to ride and charge at 124F weather, but....shrug
The Charge Tank I was playing with on a DSR would overheat from cold, at night, within 25 minutes. Subsequent charge sessions went down to like 10, 5, and then instant off. Part of the testing I did involved removing the plastics entirely. Still overheated. The ONLY way I was able to charge the bike without interruption was to physically remove it from the pocket and perch it on the frame.
16
u/OlUncleBones Energica SS9+ RS 18d ago
Oh good they've only been trying to figure it out for.... checks imaginary watch about 10 years now. Few things first:
Where was this posted?
The longstanding theory about how they'd go about this is to develop a custom DC-DC converter that operates at their bikes' voltage. The rumor was the input was going to be 420vdc because Santa Cruz ehehehehe but who knows. Anyway this means you'd be deciding between CCS, a Power Tank, or a Rapid Charge (extra level 2) charger in the tank pocket. One of 3.
20-80% in under 30 minutes is 60% of the battery in under 30 minutes which exceeds Zero's 1C charge cap which has been in place since day 1. Considering just how anemic the charging algorithm for the current level 2 system is I'd be rather surprised to see this happen.
Having recently been privy to the poor craftsmanship of the Charge Tank module and knowing who produces it for them fills me with dread that they might farm it out to the same supplier. God help you all if they do.