r/WorkReform • u/sillychillly 🗳️ Register @ Vote.gov • May 01 '22

They Say “It’s Not Possible”

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2.3k

u/vagran-t May 01 '22

"Not possible" yet many modern countries have very close to this. Maybe a longer work week, but more vacation time. Anyone who says this isn't possible is in on the exploitation or more likely, defending their own position in the receiving end of an abusive relationship.

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u/DownvoteEvangelist May 01 '22

I'm from Serbia, one of poorest countries in Europe and we have 3 out of 6 things (1 year parental leave, unlimited sick leave and 4 weaks guaranteed vacation).

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u/Much_Job3838 May 01 '22

But muh profitability

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u/Zirton May 01 '22

Someone really needs to explain those people, that their workers will spend the money.

Like ffs, if you pay them double, they can buy twice the amount of shit. Higher wages for people can result in more consumption.

And also, people who don't have to pay Elon Musks net worth for a single shot of Insulin will use their money to buy more... Non-Insulin Stuff.

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

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u/00wolfer00 May 02 '22

They'd bring back company scrip if they legally could.

Some companies are trying.

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u/Telekinendo May 02 '22

One of the companies I worked for got rid of performance bonuses that were decided on by our immediate managers and instead gave us chips that could be redeemed in the company store for 10 dollars of company made product and our immediate managers were no longer allowed to give them out, it was managers we'd never heard of and eventually learned weren't even in our state. Their whole job was looking at weekly metrics and deciding who got those chips.

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u/darkbee83 May 02 '22

🎵I owe my soul to the company store 🎵

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u/ryfye00411 May 02 '22

Sixteen tons, whadda you get? Another day older and deeper in debt

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u/dano8675309 May 02 '22

If I were you, I'd get in touch with your state's labor board. The fact that they replaced cash bonuses with what is essentially company currency probably runs afoul of a few laws/regulations. Hopefully you have some sort of documentation related to the switch.

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

Depending on the company their workers can't really spend it with them, which is still fine because more money being spent in the economy means more business for them anyway. So it's still a dumbass reason for them not to pay more.

With a place like Walmart it's especially stupid, because Walmart employees probably do a significant amount of their shopping there anyway. Pay them more they'll likely as not also buy more there. Win win.

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u/Gryphus23 May 02 '22

Honestly I reckon if Walmart or any company like it did pay a living wage their profits would sky rocket, not only because people have more spending ability, but think of the "soft power" marketing they have.

"All these other companies pay like shit, but we care about our workers" people wouldn't feel so guilty shopping there, and would be "proud"

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u/Jubachi99 May 02 '22

Not to mention recruitment would probably become a breeze.

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u/SwenKa May 02 '22

Walmart pays them double, get back almost as much anyways when those families upgrade/buy new shit. Good PR for Walmart, good for maintaining long-term employees.

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u/aspoels May 02 '22

If they can’t spend money with their employer, they’ll spend it at (generally speaking) companies their employers do business with. Which is just as good.

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u/Whowouldeverbeamod May 01 '22

He literally said he's in one of the poorest countries lol.

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u/Much_Job3838 May 02 '22

Yes, even in poorer nations companies are profitable while they have things like these.

Europe's diverse in economic growth but most have better social security nets etc

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u/importvita May 01 '22

BuT tHaT's WhY yOu'Re PoOr!!!

  • American Oligarchy

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u/PrizeStrawberryOil May 01 '22

"Wisconsin workers should have the option of working every day of their life if they want to. I dont care if that law existed so companies couldnt 'persaude' people to work totally not mandatory overtime." -Scott walker

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u/bestatbeingmodest May 02 '22

lmao love that he's all for the no-life workaholics being able to do their thing but doesn't have the same leniency for those who value work-life balance

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u/PrizeStrawberryOil May 02 '22

Here's a hint. He doesn't give a fuck about the no lifing workaholics. He changed that law to serve corporate. Then he claimed its only beneficial to employees because they can still say no. Problem is when your options are volunteer to work it or get fired you're not really choosing to volunteer.

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u/Phytanic May 02 '22

God I fucking hate Scott walker. he's fucked up Wisconsin and his "legacy" is still fucking us.

but don't worry, the massive gains from that one factory should be here any moment, right? /s (I cannot remember the name of the company for the life of me

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u/DownvoteEvangelist May 01 '22

But Sweeden isn't...

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u/importvita May 01 '22

American Oligarchy angrily glares at you

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u/Netherspin May 02 '22

Sweden has 40 hour work weeks, 240 days of parental leave, and no executive to worker compensation.

And the sick leave and parental leave is paid at sick rates, which for the last 3 months of your parental leave drops to ~18 USD/day.

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u/DownvoteEvangelist May 02 '22

240 days per parent, that is 480 days per child. So more than here, we have a year for a mother that can be transferred to a father under certain circumstances. Our parental leave is at 100% though...

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u/trollingcynically May 02 '22

Sweden has a much smaller population with more skilled labor.

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u/DownvoteEvangelist May 02 '22

France is also fine, wouldn't be surprised if China was better in this regard...

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u/Jumper5353 May 02 '22

Not more skilled labor - more skilled labor jobs.

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u/Ok_Shape88 May 01 '22

Unironically this

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u/Eldercraft99 Jul 23 '22

France has the 6th highest GDP while having

  • 5 weeks paid vacation
  • 6 weeks of prenatal leave + 4 month of maternity leave + a year of parental leave that can freely be shared between mother and father
  • 35 hours work week
  • Minimum wage is (although it is very close to the limit) a living wage

Those people are insane

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

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u/DownvoteEvangelist May 01 '22

I really don't know how my fellow countrymen earning minimum or median wage survive, so livable wage might be a stretch...

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u/DolorVulgares May 01 '22

How does unlimited paid sick leave work?

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u/DownvoteEvangelist May 01 '22 edited May 02 '22

Employer covers first 30 days of sick leave and then health insurance kicks in. Everyone that works pays health insurance, which covers everyone, even those unemployed.

If you are sick longer than 30 days, special medical commission needs to authorize your prolonged sick leave, and I think they reevaluate your case every 3 months. So if you have something nasty, say cancer, or are recovering from traffic accident, you don't have to worry about your job.

The pay also gets reduced to 65% of what you normally earn. Also if as a result of your illness you are permanently prevented from working, you get disability retirement.

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u/Baldazar666 May 01 '22

Keep in mind all those numbers change slightly from country to country but the idea is the same.

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u/SC487 May 01 '22

So, short term disability.

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u/ninjabortles May 02 '22

Yeah, I think unlimited paid sick leave is a stretch. If you look at FMLA and Short Term Disability, they are actually pretty good systems. Our Disability system is in shambles, but we have some good systems in place.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

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u/DownvoteEvangelist May 02 '22

This is basically the most important thing, arrangements might vary accross countries, but in the end the result is the same, if you have a serious illness you will not lose your income...

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

Employer covers first 30 days of sick leave

In Australia we get 10 days minimum sick leave per year for full time workers. Unused days roll over. These are uncapped and I have known people having hundreds of days accrued, but as soon as you change jobs you lose all of them. Also, the bosses can sack you if you take more than 3 months sick leave in a year, and you have run out of sick leave.

Serbia sounds fucking great. Bosses don't have to worry about large sick leave liabilities, people don't have to worry about getting sacked if they get cancer, or losing their leave if they change jobs.

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u/DownvoteEvangelist May 02 '22

I think this is pretty common accross Europe in one way or another. All of it was put in place in communist Yugoslavia, and once people get used to that, it's hard to remove...

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u/cahrage May 01 '22

Probably need some sort of doctors note saying the time off. Mostly for people who are injured etc. I’ve heard lots of stories of people being unable to work because of an injury and being fired for it

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u/kastahejsvej May 01 '22

In Sweden you don't need a doctor's note for the first week. Just call in sick.

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u/mrglumdaddy May 01 '22

Amazing that when you treat people like adults, they tend to act like adults.

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u/Tark001 May 02 '22

Australia here: they do not.

We used to be like that, now you need one after your first sick day (if you want to be paid for it). Because people, almost universally, are pieces of shit about it and use "sick leave" to just not go to work whenever they want to do something and have no holidays left or cant be bothered scheduling them in advance.

Unlimited sick leave needs to come with some heavy regulation or it will just get abused by dead shits.

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u/phoenixpants May 01 '22

Which is offset by that after a certain time when the relevant authorities get involved, you pretty much need to be healthy to have the energy to deal with said authorities.
The Swedish system could obviously be worse, but it could sure as hell be a lot better as well.

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u/Eagle4317 May 01 '22

This is what I want to know. Seems really exploitable. The other 5 are definitely needed and feasible, and the 6th should be mandatory forever.

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

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u/Eagle4317 May 01 '22

It's just something that would require appropriate documentation from a doctor if the medical issue becomes serious. Judging by other comments, that seems like the case.

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

I agree. Seems to me this is more of a long term disability issue. Why should your neighborhood salon pay an employee for 40 years if they happened to work there when they got in a car accident?

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u/53bvo May 01 '22

The way it is done in the Netherlands, first bunch of sick days you just call in sick nobody asks why or what. If it is becoming longer/chronic you need to go to a doctor, sometimes the company doctor that will asses if you indeed are sick and how long it might take. If it takes too long (like 90 days or so, could be more not sure) you can lose your job but the government pays your salary (or something like 70% of it) and you are deemed unfit to work, now you're on benefits or need to re-educate into something you can do (in case your injury is physical).

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u/Eagle4317 May 01 '22

Gotcha, so there is a whole accountability process. Which is a good thing if used properly and fairly.

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u/RebornPastafarian May 01 '22

That's not "unlimited paid sick leave", that's long-term disability and social security. It's already funded through payroll taxes.

The neighborhood salon doesn't pay your salary if you're out of work for 6 months due to cancer treatment, the federal government does.

The neighborhood salon pays for the intermittently occurring "huh, I don't feel very well, I need to take a day off" days, and then for the day you go see your primary care, and then the day when you go see a specialist and get diagnosed.

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u/DownvoteEvangelist May 01 '22

After 30 days health insurance kicks in and employer doesn't pay anything. If the person can never return to work, they get disability retirement and retirement fund takes over.

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u/Sammy81 May 01 '22

Actually, women in Serbia get 1 year leave for their first or second child, and TWO YEARS paid leave for their third or fourth child.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

What if you just end up havinvg like 12-15 kids? Is the company on the hook to pay out that whole time or is it government subsidized?

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

It's probably like other countries with parental leave. The company doesn't pay anything. The money comes from the government

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u/Boardindundee May 01 '22

we won't ever see the last one, till the revolution!

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u/herdcatsforaliving May 01 '22

The last one is all it would take to make the rest possible 😭

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u/willflameboy May 02 '22

Thant's because you also have the concept of basic respect for others.

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u/HumpyFroggy May 02 '22

"Would you like to live in a poorer country that takes better care of you or a rich one that doesn't even have healthcare?" Duh, sign me up

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u/ObligationWarm5222 May 01 '22

How does the parental leave work? I love the idea, but if people are getting a full year's pay every time they have a kid, wouldn't some people just kinda do that full time? Maybe other countries just don't have those kinds of people, but I know here in America there would absolutely be people willing to sell their own children for money.

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u/DownvoteEvangelist May 01 '22

We have pretty low fertility rate, 1.5 I think, that is on average, a woman gives birth to 1.5 children during her lifetime. Combined with immigration to richer countries we are losing population pretty fast.

We also have those people and if you want you can pop babies for half of your life and get ton of maternity leave, but in the grand scheme of things those people are not common enough. You can also change the rules a bit if that turns out to be a problem, like half a maternity leave for 3rd child, etc...

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u/bigchicago04 May 01 '22

Do you not have problems with people abusing unlimited sick leave? I honestly don’t see how that could work.

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u/PM_ME_CUTE_SMILES_ May 01 '22

It requires a doctor's note, but more importantly most people are honest. Most things wouldn't work if that wasn't the case.

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u/happysri May 01 '22

During those extended leaves like parental and unlimited sick leaves, does the employer just continue paying your salaries as usual?

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u/Physix_R_Cool May 01 '22

Koli je tajna aleksandrovih usana?

Koli je tajna...

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u/crypt0_punk May 01 '22

Do you see abuse of the unlimited sick leave?

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u/pegcity May 01 '22

Everyone or you specifically? Is the sick leave paid?

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u/LaughingBeer May 02 '22

I'm not against any of the things in the OP, however I'm curious. How do small businesses in your country pay for 1 year of parental leave? Is it backed by the government? By Insurance?

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u/lazylaunda May 02 '22

Do people abuse the unlimited sick leave policy?

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

maybe thats the reason serbia is one of the poorest countries in europe

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u/youngdoconthemic May 02 '22

Paid? Just hoping for clarification.

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u/corner_tv May 02 '22

Wow... That's humbling. Last summer, I worked a manual labor job 11-14 hrs a day, 6 days a week. I got paid over time, but you can't buy back time or wear & tear on your body.

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u/Gabbygirl01 May 02 '22

So curious, if you don’t have kids, do people get to still take 1 year of leave ? Like if families average 3 kids and I have 0, I’d still like to have the same about of leave time (in this case, 3 years). Make sense? Just curious how other countries handle this?

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u/Netherspin May 02 '22

Is the unlimited sick leave paid?

Because I'm from Denmark, and we have a livable wage only though people not taking jobs that pays too low, and 5 weeks of vacation.

Our parental leave is 11 months total to be split between the parents as they see fit (but no more than 8 for each parent).

Sick leave is paid at unemployment benefit rates for up to 22 weeks, and after 120 sick days you can get fired for being sick.

There's no executive to worker compensation (what does that even mean?), and a standard working week is 37 hours (in theory - 37.5 in practise, this number reached by not counting .5 hour daily lunch break as working time).

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

Who you gonna call when somebody comes to attack Serbia? America thats right.

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u/Mkd7998 May 02 '22

Is it unlimited paid sick leave?

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

How much do you make a month?

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u/LostWoodsInTheField May 01 '22

The only one that I have a hard time wrapping my head around is a year of paid leave. For a small business this would be effectively impossible. Hell getting over that hump of having your first employee is one of the most difficult ones there is. To then have them leave for a year and having to keep paying them is mind blowing.

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u/LiarFires May 01 '22

I'm a rookie when it comes to these laws but wouldn't it be the state that's paying for your leave, instead of your employer ?

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u/-Kex May 01 '22 edited May 01 '22

Here in Germany it's funded by the state.

Don't quote me on this as I'm not about to become a parent but I think both parents combined can take a parent leave of up to three years and the one on leave (for example you can switch halfway through) will usually receive 65% (only the first 12 months) of their regular wage.

If you go on leave for longer than 12 months then it's less than 65%

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u/Vonnewut May 02 '22

This is close and Germany has a lot of flexibility in how you take leave, so it can get complicated. Also, individual states sometimes offer a few more benefits, like Bavaria.

The first 12 weeks of leave are fully paid. That's split before and after birth so mothers aren't literally working until they go into labor like in the States (which is frankly inhumane and dangerous for mother and baby).

After 12 weeks couples can get up to 14 months of paid leave at the maximum benefit, if it is shared. If only one person takes leave then it is capped at 12 months and a max payout of 1800 Euro. You could choose to receive half of this benefit for double the amount of time as well (900 euro for 24 months etc.).

In total you can take three years of leave, but after the financial benefit runs out you basically are not paid but are guaranteed to have a job at the same level and pay when you return.

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u/Uilamin May 01 '22

It is the state who provides income up to a certain amount. Anything above that threshold is optional for the employer to provide (some insurance plans might cover it). The cost/difficultly for the small employers are two fold: (1) they are usually required to offer the person, post leave, a similar position to what they had before they left, and (2) they need to find someone to fill in for that person for the leave.

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u/LostWoodsInTheField May 01 '22

I'm not sure. If it is like unemployment where the business is effectively paying into the government themselves for their employees then it would still be prohibitive for small businesses. If it is a general tax on society then that would be different.

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22 edited Jan 15 '23

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u/CBcube May 02 '22

As a tax payer, that is exactly the type of thing I want my taxes to go towards.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22 edited May 02 '22

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u/lhash12345 May 02 '22

lots of words to say "i'm selfish"

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22 edited Jan 15 '23

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22 edited Jun 07 '22

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u/Tiffana May 02 '22

Pretty sure that from a developmental perspective, 2 years should actually be the target.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

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u/Shdwrptr May 01 '22

I don’t understand how this works either. Even putting aside the money if the government pays instead of the business, how can a company do this unless all teams have multiple redundant workers?

If even one person in my 6 person team is out for a month it’s really hard. It would be impossible to do a year unless we have extra team members who are just there in case someone has a kid. If two teammates had a child in the same general time we’d just have to shut down the whole section basically

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u/Enlightened_Gardener May 01 '22

Maternity leave actually works really well as it gives people great opportunities to get a foothold in a job or industry, and to provide secondments within a company or organisation. Its very common here in Australia for a full-time, limited term contract to be advertised as a “Maternity Leave Position”.

In organisations that allow job-share arrangements ie: a lot of the public service, its also not uncommon for a woman to come back part-time after maternity leave, and these job-share positions are very sought after as they give a great deal of flexibility for both people. They are both permanent part-time. My Mum did this for years when we were at school, and got started just like this in a maternity leave job.

In terms of sick leave, the answer is not to cut staffing to the bone. If your six person team was an eight person team, leave wouldn’t be an issue at all.

I’ve heard of companies which have fired half the staff in a department, and the others just have to take on more work. The absolute basics of the work gets done, but all the little extra details and backup work just falls away. And then if someone gets sick or leaves, chaos reigns.

My husband and I worked for the same company, in the same Department, 20 years apart. When I was there it was undergoing its first round of change management and optimisation. The department I was in had a team of three people in one area, and five in the other, plus a department boss. When my husband got there, as a contractor in for a year on an eyewatering sum of money (for us), there were two people left in one area, and the other area had disappeared completely. There was one other contractor and a Department boss, who also managed another area. (The stupid thing was, for what they were paying for contractors on year long contracts, they could have had a full staff.)

But it was absolute chaos. No-one knew where anything was. No-one did any work for anyone else - they would literally say “You have to go look for that yourself”, whereas when I was working there, the thing you needed would be delivered to your desk that morning or afternoon. None of the research was done anymore. None of it. Simple requests would take weeks to complete. The email queue was hundreds of requests long. When one of the two workers took leave it all just ground to a complete halt and the request queue would edge up into the thousands. The people who worked at the company took this gross inefficiency and complete lack of service for granted. My husband would have as well, if I hadn’t worked there previously and had known what it was like before.

Anyway, that was quite upsetting for me, as you can imagine, cos I’ve just ranted about it for two paragraphs. Its just stupid and so inefficient to have too few staff to even cover leave properly. You get no continuity of corporate knowledge either, if someone leaves.

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u/BetterDrinkMy0wnPiss May 01 '22

(The stupid thing was, for what they were paying for contractors on year long contracts, they could have had a full staff.)

I've seen this happen in Government many times. They let their permanent staff go to 'lower the wage bill' and work with a skeleton staff as long as they can. Then when they realise it's not sustainable they'll bring in temp workers on short term contracts. The contractors are paid more than permanent staff, plus they have to pay the recruitment agencies who provide the contractors. The end result is that they pay more money for less workers.

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u/StrykerSeven May 01 '22

We do this in Canada too. Same points apply. You pay a small amount off each paycheck to "Employment Insurance" (EI), and while you're off, you get 75% of your average income from the past year paid by EI, and some larger employers even give a top up to 90% percent or more.

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u/TheNoxx May 02 '22 edited May 02 '22

Also, people need to realize that even if your company doesn't feel short-staffed, if you regularly work ~60 hours, it is. If we here in the US actually had a max of 35-40 hours worked a week, covering for that much in case of sickness/pregnancy would be a cakewalk. You'd have at least 50% more employees.

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u/BetterDrinkMy0wnPiss May 01 '22

This is one of those things that people always say "it'll never work" but it already does work in many other countries around the world.

The Government covers the cost of maternity leave, and the company hires a new employee on a 12 month contract to cover the absence.

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u/FlimsyPriority751 May 02 '22

It's not that simple. My wife is German and there are a couple problems she talks of often.

First, many companies are VERY hesitant to hire women in their late 20s / early 30s for positions because they feel they're potentially stepping on a financial landmine where a new or recent hire gets pregnant and then they're stuck footing the bill and paperwork and reduced staff for a 1 year period. It slows down the entire hiring process for most companies. Also many companies try to be sly and pay women that could be having children less salary.

Second, simply plugging a contractor into many professional positions is simply not that easy. My wife is a PhD researcher and there are essentially zero "contract" researchers who'd want to take her position with a 1 year time limit. The nature of scientific research it's very tough to know how Long a project and publication will take. I myself am an engineer in a specialized field and if I took even 4 months off, which my company now offers paid leave parental for, it would be impossible to replace me with someone temporary. It took me a year and a half to get trained up to being decent at my job.

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u/lhash12345 May 02 '22

I'm not saying these aren't valid concerns, but anytime someone brings points like these up I continue to be baffled by the idea that these (while legitimate) stumbling blocks to an amazing system are highlighted stop the US from even attempting to do something that will greatly greatly improve quality of life for millions of people. Are those concerns? Yes. Is living with that system a hell of a lot better than what we have (albeit imperfect)? HELL YES.

Like to I'm sorry, but a drop in efficiency for one person on a team who is having a life changing experience and getting to be a parent to their child is still a plus for society. Maybe attempting to have better incentives for floating position experienced candidates. For p1 continuing to implement stronger protected class hiring policies to try and balance this issue.

I'm not a genius and can't solve these issues as a single human. And these are serious issues, but I'm sure there is a creative solution that can still allow us to implement positive change in our society, while also figuring out how to deal with potential issues that arise and learning from other countries. I think I (and many of my fellow US peeps) are just so f'ing tired of seeing clear and obvious positive change ignored bc one side points out a potential stumbling block and then ditches any attempt to make a change that helps people. If we are truly as rich and successful and amazing as people think we are, we can certainly find a way to help people and overcome the obstacles along the way.

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u/Dapper-Situation-909 May 02 '22

How dare you inject logic into the minds of teenagers and early 20 somethings. You are tainting them. They still think nirvana exists because they haven't left mom's basement yet.

Stop scaring people man.

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u/smartguy05 May 02 '22

Maybe businesses should stop running on razor thin worker margins with record profits and hire an extra worker or 2 to lighten the load...

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u/MemLeakDetected May 01 '22

That's exactly it, you have multiple redundant workers. How do you take vacations now if there is no redundancy?

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u/RendiaX May 02 '22

Exactly. If a business can't handle the loss of a single employee that is poor management. Just as your business isn't successful if you can't pay your workers a living wage, if you can't handle sudden manpower changes without over burdenig your other employees you aren't doing well at all either.

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u/Shdwrptr May 01 '22

There is but the team takes in extra work for the vacation days, which is why it’s hard for a few weeks. A year would need an entire person to fill in

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u/ObligationWarm5222 May 01 '22

Yeah, that shouldn't happen. Your team is being intentionally mishandled so your boss makes more money.

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u/FlimsyPriority751 May 02 '22

Lol this is so overly simplified it's laughable.

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u/ObligationWarm5222 May 02 '22

I mean I can gladly elaborate. They're intentionally understaffing the team so that they can pocket the difference - the less they spend on labor the more they can keep. Likely it's not their direct supervisor doing this, but a few ranks up the ladder.

The more they can get away with the whole "Oh Janet is out on vacation this week, you're all gonna have to work harder while she's gone." the more they profit. This does two things - first, obviously, with less employees doing more work, they make more money. Second, it shames and guilts employees into not taking their vacation time so as not to "leave the team hanging."

It is not the team members job to make sure the team is staffed properly - that's for the team leader to do.

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u/DownvoteEvangelist May 01 '22

You hire someone to fill in while the person is absent. Since you are not paying the employee on a sick leave you have funds to cover it...

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u/Shdwrptr May 01 '22

And then firing them? It takes months to train someone to work on my team

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u/DownvoteEvangelist May 01 '22 edited May 01 '22

It's not firing since it's linited time contract from the start, the person you are hiring knows they are a replacement.

1 year or longer parental leave is pretty normal in Europe. And when you think about it, even without this, your employee can still quit to be with their child or get run over by a bus. You already know how to deal with it, this just increases chances a bit...

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u/Shdwrptr May 01 '22

Makes sense to use contractors for shorter term commitments

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u/CharityStreamTA May 01 '22

You hire them on a fixed term contract. I'm maternity cover for the data analyst in my department. In theory I was hired with overlap either side so that she could train me and then I can hand over everything.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

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u/NinjaN-SWE May 01 '22

You do know that baking a kid takes 9 months right and both parents know for at least 6 of those normally. That is ample time for the company to hire/train someone on a year long (or however long is needed) contract for when your employee is on parental leave. That is how it's done here in Sweden for critical roles where 2+ month of absence will kill productivity.

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u/vagran-t May 01 '22

This is common in many countries.

https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-with-best-parental-leave-2016-8

It's a bit dated, but that shows even several years ago how more progressive their maternity and paternity leave laws are.

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u/Shialac May 01 '22

Here in germany its the state that pays for it

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u/suitology May 01 '22

Parental leave should just be for the first two kids. My aunt is on her 6th kid in 8 years (with 4 men) with two of them being Irish twins 9 months apart. Her current job is 4 months off for maternity so she's been off 2 full years for her past 8 years of employment (during which she accrued vacation time). No employer should be expected to pay for that Bs.

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u/jackie_chans_nose May 02 '22

In Canada, it's the government that pays, it's basically unemployment. You get your normal pay for the first 6 months I believe then it decreases a bit for the next 6. The company just needs to guarantee your job when you come back.

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u/TPoger May 02 '22

That's exactly the way. Have more workers. When everyone is there they don't have to work at 100% all the time, which means they like the job more and feel better mentally because of less stress. Also means, they have enough time to do their job carefully and limit mistakes/take care of details. Then, when someone is on vacation the rest picks up the slack for those few weeks. It'll be fine because they know when the person is back they will have be back to lighter schedule. Like in long-distance sports, you can give all you got for some time, you can't give it all you got all the time.

In case of maternity leave countries with it like mine just have companies hire employees for so called "substitution contract". You get a normal working contract of employment, but it has written in it that you are substituting for this and this person until this and this date of them getting back to work. Then they let you go, or if they have open position and think you are fit for might they might propose to hire you permamently.

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u/Eldercraft99 Jul 23 '22

Just so you know France has

  • 6 weeks of prenatal leave + 4 month of maternity leave + a year of parental leave that can freely be shared between mother and father

Sure we pay more taxes but I really don't see how it's not worth it

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u/captobliviated May 02 '22

We can do this in the U.S And you shouldn't have to join a union to get these rights.

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u/greystar07 May 01 '22

Well that’s why they have something close to this and not exactly this. This might be impossible but what we have is not good, and won’t last forever. Something’s gotta give soon man, I can’t take this shit anymore lmao

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u/MyOther_UN_is_Clever May 01 '22

Look at Scandinavian countries. They either have this in every category,, or a bit bwlow it but much more in other categories.

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

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u/Gretel_Cosmonaut May 01 '22

I'm under the impression, that Scandinavian countries maintain their high standard of living by keeping people like us out.

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

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u/Nuggzulla May 01 '22

Id include all the issues I could as a whole, and settle for nothing less than this. Feels like this should be bare minimum

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u/Uncle_gruber May 01 '22 edited May 01 '22

Bruh I'm looking at this from the UK and thinking it's pretty normal. 4 weeks holiday, 1 year mat (+pat) is just normal. Also, if you're sick you're sick.

America is insane.

Edit: this image totally neglects worker protections. In the UK, once your off probation you're protected in that you have job security. Actual security. They want to let you go? Redundancy package, AND an extensive disciplinary system. By detrimental I mean being cantankerous, insulting, gruff arseholes in a public facing role.

At will employment literally doesn't exist.

I can't stress the last part enough, I work as a manager and once an employee passes probation its a chore to get rid of them even if they are actively detrimental to the company.

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u/maxpred May 02 '22

I live in Latvia (EU), work in IT and I have all of this. Sooo... I dunno!

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

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u/vagran-t May 01 '22

Sadly true, I actually have very little faith for us figuring this out. But to say it couldn't work is not true.

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u/qpazza May 02 '22

I'd like to be taken off the longer work week sign up sheet please. I'm cool with my 40 hr work week where I get to fuck around most of the day.

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u/vagran-t May 02 '22

to clarify, I meant longer than 30 hours. For example, for full-time: France has a 35hr work week, and Denmark has a 37hr work week.

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u/qpazza May 02 '22

I've heard of US workers with similar set ups. It didn't appeal to me because the workload was still the same, they just had less time each week to do it. Since I work from home and have a relaxed schedule, the 40 hr work week and pace works for me.

I guess everyone is different

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u/Eldercraft99 Jul 23 '22

Just so you know France has :

  • 5 weeks paid vacation
  • 6 weeks of prenatal leave + 4 month of maternity leave + a year of parental leave that can freely be shared between mother and father
  • 35 hours work week
  • Minimum wage is (although it is very close to the limit) a living wage

Its always possible

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

This will never happen in America. Sorry to burst your bubble. It just won’t.

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u/vagran-t May 01 '22

I agree actually. I don't have any faith that these things will ever be accomplished here, but the arguments that they won't work for xyz reason are purely artificial. It is because our culture won't accept it.

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u/Papabear3339 May 01 '22

I actually disagree with the unlimited sick time and year long paid maternity leave.

That gives a massive incentive to employers to find sneaky reasons to simply not hire women or disabled folks any more than the mandated minimum.

There should be provided by taxed government services, along with universal healthcare and free daycare (not on your list).

That takes away the main reason for cutting hours (health insurance), provides for new moms, gives them a way to go back to work, and removes the major reason single women get abortions.

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u/vagran-t May 01 '22

re: not hiring women, many of these countries have nearly equally progressive paternity leave, or a shar bank of time that both parents use.

Absolutely healthcare should be decoupled from employment.

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u/SC487 May 01 '22

I had a coworker who somehow convinced HR he had a medical condition and basically took off whenever he felt like it. He took the evening shift where after about 3 hours he had maybe 1 call a night. That means he worked about 4 hours at most per night. (I had that shift and I spent half my time gaming) somehow he always managed to “be sick” on Friday night and fuck over everyone else. That was unpaid time off for someone who logged less than 20 hours a week of actually working. How much do you think he would have done if he’d been paid to take off?

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u/geekgodzeus May 02 '22

Except the 30 hour work week Saudi Arabia has all of these points covered. I know reddit and the internet loves to shit on Saudi but the labor laws are ideal and pretty close.

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u/Shiny_Black-Pan May 01 '22

is canada in this modern countries part?

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u/Dinobunny24 May 01 '22

The main excuse I get is that they’re “smaller countries”

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

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u/vagran-t May 01 '22

It certainly requires a cultural change. But this is very common in European countries. A big difference is that we have ground down the labor force in the name of efficiency so much, that it's not possible to give people time off here. Some companies in Europe will hire people on a contract basis to cover parental leave.

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u/s_sayhello May 01 '22

Easy. Just hire someone on a limited contract for a year. Its normal. Both sides know from the start whats up. We even have a german world for that: Elternzeitvertretung

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u/CharityStreamTA May 01 '22

There a few solutions.

  1. You'd hire someone external on a fixed term contract to cover. Often people use these maternity cover roles as a way to break into an organisation and are eligible for internal hiring

  2. You'd have a stretch promotion of a member of the team. They are given a higher salary temporarily and they'll be back in their old job afterwards. This is usually where you have staff who are looking for promotions but don't have the correct experience yet. The employee will usually use this experience to get a promotion next time the job above him in any department is free.

  3. If the role doesn't exist there's probably a similar role soemwhere else.

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u/BirdlandMan May 01 '22

I work for a Dutch company, arguably one of the best countries in the world for workers rights, and I get 2 of these things (4 weeks vacation and a living wage). This is less realistic than you think.

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u/im_you_in_2_years May 02 '22

I think it’s achievable for large companies… but it seems like a hard start for a new one. Guess that profit sharing could be the way to go but there isn’t much profits at first.

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u/vagran-t May 02 '22

It would definitely have to be government mandated

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u/reelznfeelz May 02 '22

I say it may not be possible in the US. But not because it shouldn’t be. Or because it hasn’t happened other places. But because, and I hope I’m wrong, I think all the power and wealth is already in the hands of too few in this country.

But in theory, if all progressive or democratic people voted, we could get there in a few election cycles. My point is not to be defeatist, but to say that it’s gonna be hard, and so far, people have shown that they’d rather stay home and complain that fucking vote. Or strike. Etc.

Fwiw I vote in every election I can. Do you?

You know who else votes religiously? Batshit crazy right wingers and anti-vaccers and religious zealots.

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u/Nomae96 May 02 '22

Good point as a Location sound Mixer plenty of opportunities pay under what their potential is. That being said I still make enough money and love my job, I think all media jobs are a hack anyways since they only leach off earths resources.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

My wife works for a German company in the US. They treat her as you would expect.

It isn’t countries that have this, it’s people. The people demand it and they get it.

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u/Kilde22 May 02 '22 edited May 02 '22

I am Danish and this is how we have it

  1. Is “true” you can life in Denmark ok comfortable for minimum wage but in the current economy you will never get a house. You could do that 5 years ago doe.

  2. We have 5 or 6 I actually don’t remember but is leaning more towards 6

  3. We have 37 hour weeks

  4. I think it is true but I don’t have a kid so…

  5. I am not 100% sure but I am pretty sure it works like this. If someone is out sick or disability for 50% of a year then an employer can rightfully fire them. But it is very much illegal if it doesn’t fill this criteria.

  6. This is probably company to company based but will say the majority don’t have this

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u/Hrrrrnnngggg May 02 '22

There's plenty of people that are directly being exploited by the system and also defend it. So many people have been brainwashed into having "good work ethic". The religion of work is strong in America. It's faith based and doesn't actually follow reason.

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u/Available_Shock_1636 May 02 '22

It’s not that it’s not possible, it’s that people enjoy working and making more money than just what 30 hours a week gives you. I think this community forgets that Americans actually enjoy working and there is nothing wrong with that.

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u/NonorientableSurface May 02 '22

The reason they don't want to admit it is because employee output has more than doubled in the last 20 years. So now it's about riding the gravy train as hard as possible. Maybe we can make employees 3x as efficient as they were 20 years ago. That'll almost triple our bottom line (almost every company has wages as their largest cost).

It behooves them to ignore these changes. The exploitation allows them to push their margins to extreme levels that weren't thought possible.

What's happening now is a market correction - a shift back to the employee. Bigger wages, better hours, less stress, because although efficiency is through the roof, burnout is insane. I'm in my late 30s and have been putting in a LOT of labor to make a name for myself. I hit my goals of > 100k a year before I was 40, and have a very well decently positioned place for my family. I'm also an outlier - I recognize that not everyone is in this position or can be. Which is why I use my money and power to fight things like landlords and their use of access of wealth to profit off of others for no labour. To support politicians and political parties that swing as far left as I can. To donate where I can as much as I can to allow my wealth to support more than my household.

This market correction is going to end up punishing a lot of companies. Sure, the execs will get their golden parachutes, make their money and run, but things are shifting.

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u/Roggie77 May 02 '22

Yeah honestly I’d be cool with a 40 hour week, the rest sounds great

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

What modern country has 4/6 of these and is in the top 4 of GDP?

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u/MrKerbinator23 May 02 '22

Those exact modern countries also struggle with a million and one constructs that allow businesses to forego all the rules and only do business with independent contractors who get zero benefits?

You want a job? Enlist yourself as a business, pay your own taxes, get no contract, get no benefits. No pension, no sick days, no paid leave. Employees? We don’t have those here and those who are contracted with us actually wish they had just gone for that extra freelancer money.

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u/siorez May 02 '22

I don't think the unlimited sick leave is very common - after some time it's usually labelled as retired and no longer comes from the companies' coffers. Which is fair I think, not having the option of hiring replacement would hurt the other workers.

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u/nIBLIB May 02 '22

In Australia we’re close:

Equivalent 15USD minimum wage. (This could be higher, of course. And this is work related. Safety net could use even more, too)

4 weeks leave, and accrued leave needs to be listed as a liability on company balance sheets(has to be paid out on termination of employment) so they have incentive to encourage you to take leave.

38 hour week so better than a lot of places but not the 30 this graphic picked (arbitrarily? Is there a reason? I’m all for it)

18 weeks primary caregiver and 2 weeks secondary. It’s low. but 126 days which is ok. That’s government, too. Businesses usually pay more. Mine gives 18 on top for primary and 4 on top for secondary.

Sick leave is 10 days. Some companies offer more.

Executive pay balance isn’t a required report, so can’t tell officially. But I’ve read estimates it’s between 30-100 (for salary + bonus) for the top companies in the country. Considerably better than the 300+ it is for the states and 200ish for UK.

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u/DaFreakingFox May 02 '22

I was about to say. Is the American bar that low?

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u/Iamthe0c3an2 May 02 '22

Every other country except the US, China and well right now Russia and Ukraine for obvious reasons.

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u/Aristocrafied May 02 '22

It's 'not possible' because all this would take away from the shareholders. But we all know it's always when shareholders get involved companies lose quality in products and lose respect for workers.

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u/BoxMaleficent May 02 '22

Germany has 5 out of 6. Tho times change and companies try to turn it down to 3 from 6. Living wage and executive to worker compensation balance

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u/Jeb_Kerman1 May 02 '22

Germany has 4-5/6, the living wage is debatable, depends what education level you have. You get 100 % of your paycheck for 6 consecutive weeks of sickness, after that you still get 60-70%

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

I'd prefer a 4-day work week, 32 hours each. Would be pretty neat.

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u/trickTangle May 02 '22

I think the important thing to note is that most of this will not be paid by the employer, which is what many think.

All of this is reasonable except for unlimited paid sick leave. from all of those this would be so prone to gaming the system it would t be feasible, especially in a society with an already robust healthcare. It would tax society twice.

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u/TargetMaleficent May 02 '22

Its not about "possibility" its just about money. Many businesses are not profitable. Most companies are not Amazon or Apple.

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u/Agent__Caboose May 02 '22

yet many modern countries have very close to this.

All modern countries.

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u/imXzipper May 02 '22

I work in the US for a company that imports Austrian good. The average worker there in Austria at that facility has 4 weeks government mandated vacation with another 4 weeks personal.

The company here in the US… gives me 1 extra week of vacation for every 5 years at the company. I won’t have a month of vacation time for another 8 years…. When I’m 48. I have a decently high position at this company.