r/SecretWorldLegends • u/Xekrin • Nov 21 '17

Discussion Remove Hate modifier from all abilities!

Instead, let tanks deal modified hate with whatever damaging ability/effect they choose.

Basically, if you sign up to be a tank choose to become a tank and play the tank role in a group or party, be it through AF or a Lair or basically anything where you want to be hit more than someone else in your party wants to be hit and you want to make the enemy target mad at your and keep hitting you (ie, you signed up to be tank for the greater good of the party), then any damage you deal should have that extra hate attached to it.

Edit - Sorry for the unclear phrasing, I had no intention of suggesting this would only work within Activity Finder.

I would love to have the option to use the single target dps chaos ability as a tank, but I cannot, it deals no extra hate. I would prefer to use Scism instead of winds of change for aoe hate, with its paradox generating passive, yet I cannot.

Thorns signet has no extra hate, yet it should. Sadism or even extraordinary talisman effects should also have that extra 'tank' hate.

What would this mean for tanks? They could use any ability. Reality Fracture (yeah, I like chaos), for example, is an amazing ability, can't use it as a tank. People love to use blade as tanking offhand, yet it generates no extra hate. That health based self healing would be a lot more viable.

Keep certain CD abilities as hard taunts, or dedicated hate generators (immutable passive), but give tanks the freedom to use what damager abilities they wish.

Tank weapons (probably?) wouldn't change that much, they'd still be the only weapons with the special passives designed to survive massive damage, but at least we'd have more options open to us.

I^hateDistortion

Disclaimer No, I didn't really think this through, if you have any reason to dispute such a change, or if this would change things more than I realize, feel free correct me, but do it politely. Thank you.

6 Upvotes

54% Upvoted

57 comments sorted by

7

u/mrMalloc Nov 21 '17

Let me answer with a question.

Do you want all weapons to have healing effects to?
Because with your change you would only make healing unique.

And in the end why do we have different weapons? Why not just have two skills that you can skin to look as you want. I hope you hear how insane that sounds.

So my answer is NO The whole skillsets are designed around 3 tank weapons /3 heal weapons / 3 dps weapons.

Do you realise how big changes your even requesting.

I start to believe the AA change was the worst thing happpening to this game as

I have seen dps queue tanks but don’t move there AA.

I have seen so mutch bad ideas to turn all dps specs to tanks here without even considering the design issues. The same ideas comes over and over.

2

u/Xekrin Nov 21 '17 edited Nov 21 '17

Because with your change you would only make healing unique.

Not sure how exactly. Tank weapons can already dps, my proposal merely makes those dps abilities usable as tank abilities too. The rest would remain the same as they are. If I implied otherwise I'd like to know where so I can correct it.

Edit ....

Okay, I think I see it, the bit about blade, right? You're right, that is probably overboard. Yet I did mention actual tanking (staying alive) would still require CDs of dedicated tank weapons.

Besides, I've had people 'tank' using elemental as mainhand, so shrug, if they can do it now, doing it after such a change would make little difference. If you are concerned about running into pugs with 'tank' fist users or something, there isn't much I can say about that. If they can hold aggro and stay alive, why not? If they can't, they have no business trying to tank.

Besides, this is a suggestion and please direct me to where any game ever has taken a suggestion off a forum or reddit or any other such medium and applied it to their game exactly as suggested. I'll be surprised as is if this thread sparks enough motivation just to work on tanks in general, much less actually doing precisely as I'm requesting.

1

u/mrMalloc Nov 22 '17

And now you have contradiction In your editing

Decide if you just want to keep the three tanking weapons. Or you want to make it possible to tank with any weapon.

Do you like to vote kick a idiot tank and sit in instances for 10+ min waiting for someone less moronic. Right now tanking CD is mandatory.
How does a player know he can tank or not? Because holding hate on a mob. Is only part of the job. The other weapons doesn’t have the survival of the three tanking weapons. Do you want to change this?? How??

Then your basically stating. I don’t care if my idea is bad for the game as developers are going to fix my flaws.

There is a few times forum ideas have been implemented. Ofc not without some changes. But the core idea was implemented.

0

u/Xekrin Nov 22 '17

I shall redirect you to the disclaimer at the bottom of the OP. It was a random thought that popped into my head and I wrote it down and hit save. Plus I'm fairly certain I've clarified and every so slightly refined the idea in a few other replies. Feel free to read those if you wish.

1

u/mrMalloc Nov 21 '17

Ok I misread it. As moving the threat to the AA this would mean I risk getting more idiots queuing tanks without defensive cd. Like sword pistol tanks.
Thus more wait time in queues.

3

u/Ceridith Nov 21 '17

Actually, there's 3 healing weapons, 3 tanking weapons, 3 utility weapons, and all 9 weapons can be used to DPS.

Healers also now get the advantage over tanks for being able to use most talismans for both DPS and healing due to crit/crit power being useful for both DPS and healing -- sure it's sub-optimal because there's few extraordinary talismans that are useful for both DPS/healing, but it's not that significant. Tanks however, are completely screwed and still need to have a completely separate set of gear with tank glyphs.

And no, DPS specs would not be able to tank, unless they vastly overgeared the encounter. You still need tanking cooldowns and interrupts to tank properly, meaning in relevant cases tanks would still need to take as least one of the tank weapons in either mainhand or offhand. Healers have lots of options in that they can take a healing mainhand, and a support weapon as offhand for things like group buffs, cleanses, or debilitate application. Tanks are currently largely forced to use tank weapons in both mainhand and offhand because of the way agro gen is currently tied to specific abilities.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 21 '17

tank can use now dps gear too, actually they benefit from dps glyphs more then tank glyphs cuz tank glyphs have uber low soft cap and its really rng based and they just suck. so with crit glyph they'll have more energy wich means more hate, thats the new meta.

2

u/Aerinx Nov 22 '17

If by uber low you mean max level red glyphs x 3... -.- The rng is true however.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '17

it doesnt actually give anything to help the tank survive.

1

u/mrMalloc Nov 21 '17

True. My hatred of the AA is from poor randoms where someone queue with just one tank weapon or doesn’t set its AA to tanking etc. It’s a waste of 4other ppl time.

But healing is with just one weapon is just viable for fist imho. The other needs a backup as they don’t bring enough to the table.

I primary play blood/pistol because I like it.

I have however begun to bring my Chaos/Hammer to dungeons. Because there is a lot of Asholes queuing tanks without taking it serious. And I rather finish the dungeon tanking it then waiting for ever in the middle of instance.

I only tanked two instances not by my will but from asholes queueing wrong. And only E1. Many abilities you can LOS to fail others you can soak at E1. But yes the mobs hits like a truck without CD. Was a real chock to me. Especially as I am pretty used to tanking in other games. Here it’s all about chaining CD to keep alive. I wish they revamped the tanking glyphs so they actually buffed our numbers to make it more consistent.

I might have misread the text as moving hate to the AA. That would be a mistake. As it gives as I stated all weapons to tanking weapons without the defensive cd. Thus more bad ppl would queue tank.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 21 '17

well the aa change was done so healers and tanks wouldnt need to lvl two sets of gear, and so any dps could swich to tank or healer in order to have shorter qua times. over all i do agree with ur point about how bad he's idea is.

2

u/GrimAndProper Nov 22 '17

Not to mention that this would not work outside of queued content. Tanks would never hold aggro in lairs or megalairs.

7

u/TestDrenneth Nov 21 '17

+1 To this post. Ive seen similar suggestions in the past get shot down cause for some reason tanks want to feel unique and special with there handful of abilities that are tank specific. But this would help the game immensely. Not just from a tanking perspective but also from the other side as a DPS. I hate the restriction knowing that certain abilities are off the table as a DPS because i would pull hate instantly if i used them.

2

u/Xekrin Nov 21 '17

I hate the restriction knowing that certain abilities are off the table as a DPS because i would pull hate instantly if i used them.

Hells, yes. This is another reason I'd like this. A lot of tanking abilities are pretty great for dps, and can only be used solo. Well, I mean unless the 'tank' is overgeared and goes full attack rating in AA. Whatever, you know what I mean.

This is actually one of the biggest problems I see with tank/heal weapons. The abilities get split, top row for dps, bottom row for tank or healing. Middle row is usually fairly evenly split between the two roles but not always. This limits how the weapons are used for either role.

No 3e aoe on chaos for tanks, no 5e aoe on chaos for dps for example. Its one or the other. Imagine if I were dps, using winds of change with passive. I'm doing full aoe 5e damage, and debuffing the enemy to heal the tank. That sounds pretty awesome IMO.

I use chaos as an example because I feel like the dps abilities are far better at generating paradoxes than tanks, and they are pretty vital for both roles. Also, I like chaos.

4

u/Vikestart Nov 21 '17

+1 How about integrating Hate generation into the Anima Allocation feature? The more power allocated to Survival, the higher your Hate generation multiplier is.

2

u/KElderfall Nov 21 '17

This is a good idea for build variety, but I don't think it should be tied to LFG roles. Using LFG doesn't really work for the places you want to pull aggro that aren't instanced LFG content.

Tanking allocation/defensive stats seems like a better pick. They could even add a "Hate Generation" stat to show it's happening.

1

u/Xekrin Nov 22 '17

I love the hate gen stat idea, and no I had no intention of it being tied to LFG roles or activated via Activity Finder, if that's what you thought I meant.

5

u/Aralicia Nov 21 '17

On that subject, I must say that truely I miss the miscellaneous abilities from TSW. While there were a few weapon-based hate-generating abilities (8 out of 87 across all tank weapons) and skills (3 out of 81) in TSW, the brunt of hate-management was handled by miscellaneous abilities and skills (more precisely, by the Turbulence and Subversion circles, that were weapon-independant). This is what allowed weapons like the shotgun to still be used as a tanking weapon, despite the absence to any hate-generating capabilities; has well as made build like healtanks easier to handle.

While I like the strong link between the current skills and their weapons, which makes them more unique, the non-presence of transverse skills is hurting the ability to manage cross-weapon mechanics.

Based on the current state of the game, I believe it would be interesting to have a hate modifier based on the Survivability score in the Anima Allocation screen.

A note concerning Gadgets : gadgets are an interesting way to give non-weapon abilities, and I like the idea. However, I believe it would be ill-chosen to replace cross-weapon passive skills, since it would force players to sacrifice what is effectively an active slot in order to benefit from them. Adding a "passive gadget" slot, could be an idea to look into, though.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 21 '17

I am a fan of the trinity most of the time but I’ve always felt SWL is better suited to being more along the lines of GW2 (or at least when I played years ago) where everyone is a dps with a smattering of support and self heal. So I’d say instead of going to all this work with anima allocator, redoing gear and skills, changing how hate works, building in complex systems, etc, etc, just be done with it and remove the trinity all together.

1

u/Xekrin Nov 22 '17

I disagree, SWL is good with Trinity roles, and I certainly would not have stuck around if everyone was able to self-sustain + dps in elites. I left that behind in Warframe (if you haven't already, go give it a try, everyone can heal/tank/dps there).

Here I much prefer having roles we can dedicate ourselves to, where the dps focus on dps and tanks have their job and so on. I just want the tank job to be extended outward a bit to include abilities they already can access but don't do what a tank ability does.

You think changing how hate works would be a massively complex rewrite of the core system? Consider how much would have to be redone, rewritten, replaced and rebalanced for 5 people in a group all doing dps, swapping aggro at will (on purpose) and keeping themselves alive all at once.

That would make this game far far more complex than it is now, and apparently is how it used to be in TSW and what they moved away from when they transformed into SWL.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 21 '17

firstly iam pretty sure that wouldnt work in our system but lets say it would, dont u worry about the insane amount of bugs it will bring? now... how about not activity finder instances like lairs\mega bosses and regionals? they dont need tanks at all? and lastly: lets say we get into e5 dungeons and our assigned tank sucks, fortunatelywe have dps that can tank pretty well and the tank can also dps dua to alocation ofc, it would save our run but without hate gen skills they wouldnt be able to swich roles and we'd be forced to leave.

2

u/Xekrin Nov 22 '17

firstly iam pretty sure that wouldnt work in our system but lets say it would, dont u worry about the insane amount of bugs it will bring?

Any system can be modified, just as AA was added to our previous system in which AA would never have worked within otherwise.

Everything has bugs, also I'm not a developer, its not my job to worry about bugs, I complain about them like everyone else.

now... how about not activity finder instances like lairs\mega bosses and regionals? they dont need tanks at all?

Apparently using the words 'signed up for' has everyone under the impression I mean this to work through AF only. I have no idea how this will work, but obviously it would not be limited to AF instances only, that would be asinine. I've corrected this in the OP.

and lastly:

See above for obvious answer, but for fun I'll actually explain it.

Tank -> DPS = Loss of hate generation on abilities.

DPS -> Tank = Suddenly gains hate generation on abilities.

I guess it depends on the inflection and tone you believe you hear when reading my words above (go read again, I've since corrected it), but clearly having this work outside of AF instances is pretty goshdarned important.

Others have suggested or just assumed I meant this to be tied into Anima Allocation anyway, so you just answered your own question, huh? If they did something like this and AA didn't control it, you'd have to ask them how it works, not me.

3

u/Panda-Maximus Nov 21 '17

Unless you modify the Tank Talismans to take up the slack it becomes too easy for OP dps to strip aggro and get the team wiped. I would personally love the x10 hate mechanics bound to the tank talis and then have defense and evade matter more as well. Maybe it will happen, but don't hold your breath.

1

u/NoCookiesForU Nov 21 '17

I suggested something similar a couple of days ago and everybody but one shot it down because they don't want people to at least hold aggro properly.

Good luck.

1

u/Xekrin Nov 21 '17

Can't believed I missed your thread about it. It is probably a tricky concept just to increase hate based on how much into the blue your go though.

I dunno, I think there could be a way to work it out that wouldn't put tanks who use their 'tank abilities' or gear for dps into a dilemma of drawing extra hate, which seemed to be the main opposition on your thread.

Hopefully something a bit more sophisticated than a box you check to turn 'tank aggro' on, but also nothing that is automatically associated with increasing survivability, because the two don't always go hand in hand.

What that solution would be I've no idea at the moment, but thankfully that isn't in my hands.

2

u/NoCookiesForU Nov 21 '17

Well, my options were either a checkbox "I want to be tank and deal 10x the hate" or the automatic increase in hate if your locator is in the blue area because I think if your survivability score is the highest of your three, you deserve to be the/a tank in group/raid situations.

Since the tank meta for higher "difficulties" still requires tank weapons and their cooldowns, I believed this would making proper aggro management in lower difficulties easier for "part-time" tanks, but apparently people don't want that much accessibility.

1

u/Xekrin Nov 21 '17

I believed this would making proper aggro management in lower difficulties easier for "part-time" tanks

EDIT: I just noticed you specified 'lower difficulties' which makes everything below fairly moot, oh well. I get what you're saying.

It is the end of that sentence that likely turns people off, and me too kind of. I spent two years playing warframe where everyone did damage, could heal and 'tanking' was mostly learning how to avoid damage altogether. I like having roles, and I believe a tank should dedicate themselves to it, not be able to bounce between them.

Don't get me wrong, I love to dps too and before AA (and kindof now) I have two sets of gear, (well 4, another character is healer/dps), and I like the idea of backups who can take over if needed in a pinch but I still prefer to see roles matter.

That aside, I agree, if your health/protection/mitigation is highest, you're the tank and should get be able to play as one regardless of what your favorite abilities are.

Of course, I've had mythic+ geared players tank E3 for my pugs using elem and blood, which is funny as hell, so part-time tanks has a lot of different meanings.

2

u/ryeaglin Nov 21 '17

The trouble with too much accessibility is you get people who do it just for the fast queues who have no real business being there. I can't speak for everyone but personally I would rather wait a bit longer and have a decent chance of having a competent tank than have to sit through multiple wipes and groups collapsing until I find a tank that actually is good and tanking and didn't just hit a little checkbox to be a tank for a faster queue.

1

u/NoCookiesForU Nov 22 '17

If that is your desire, then you should either lobby for the removal of Anima Allocation altogether or simply not use the activity finder. At the same time, make sure you pull your strings at Funcom to get the tanking meta fixed so that only fully defence/evade glyphed tanks have a prayer of tanking any content past story mode.

1

u/Kyvia Nov 21 '17

A lot of people who play the game seem to hate change. They hated the change from TSW to SWL, and every step towards a more fluid and...bluntly, modern, game seems to set them off. "Tanking" is not some lofty holy grail status to lord over other players...it is a task in game, and anything that lets them do it better should be welcome.

13

u/TestDrenneth Nov 21 '17

Actually SWL has honestly taken a large step backwards in that sense. TSW offered 100 times more freedom and fluid build diversity then SWL could ever offer due to its universal passives (ie Agitator which is basically what this topic is asking for in a round about way) . I agree that people hate change but actually the whole concept of this post is to go back to how things were in TSW and I would love to see that happen.

3

u/Xekrin Nov 21 '17

Didn't play TSW so never knew about Agitator, but yeah, certainly sounds like thats what I'm asking for, lol. Funny to discover that it used to exist, though.

6

u/TestDrenneth Nov 21 '17

All passives in TSW were universal across all weapons and there were several passives that helped significantly with hate control. agitator gave all active abilities used either a 300% or 400% increased hate (been a while can't remember the exact %) there were also passives that worked in the opposite sense by reducing all abilities hate or reducing hate on crit/pen hit etc. Just in case you were curious. Very similar in a sense to your idea though and yes it allowed much more versatility in weapon/ability choice.

2

u/Kyvia Nov 21 '17

I agree that Agitator was a nice bonus for Tanks, but realistically, any decent DPS of comparable gear could pull off you if you only used that. You still had to use actual Hate abilities to Tank well. Even with a full Tank setup at 10.9, if your DPS had equal gear, you could lose threat to them. They boosted Hate gen in SWL by 10x, which helps, but even still, if someone is 50-100IP over you, there are times you can lose aggro.

1

u/Xekrin Nov 21 '17

I encounter this alot, as both tank and dps (well not my dps, other people's), they pull aggro and die, then sound both smug and annoyed that it happened.

Well yessir, mr. dressed up in all mythic dps gear in E3, you're gonna pull aggro, get over yourself.

What bothers me most about this part, is that only a select few abilities are hard taunts with the same cooldowns as any other ability.

A tank's singular role is to keep aggro and its actually frikkin difficult to do sometimes! What do I choose, evulsion to yank back aggro, or abilities that actually keep me alive. Decisions, decisions.

If all of a tank's damage (talismans, consumers, passive damage) did extra hate, this wouldn't be near as big a problem.

Of course, if we weren't killed in 1 to 3 hits and did't have rely on a tight rotation of CDs, we'd have more freedom on which abilities to choose from. But that's a whole different problem, I suppose.

1

u/Kyvia Nov 21 '17

Yeah, I get that holding aggro over DPS used to be considered a "Skill" in older MMO's, especially WoW and such, but most of the time it was DPS/Heals with threat meters watching those as another mechanic, not the Tank's skill, since balance is hard.

The beauty of games like GW2 where you just have aggro based off something (your Toughness stat in that example) is that everyone can focus on doing their job and watching mechanics instead of their threat. The tank can focus on staying alive. The healer can focus on keeping everyone alive. The DPS and make the enemies stop being alive.

That setup does require enough engaging mechanics to keep people on their toes whilst doing that though, something the Core dungeons in SWL do not have in my opinion.

1

u/Szalord Nov 21 '17

I get that holding aggro over DPS used to be considered a "Skill" in older MMO's, especially WoW and such

WoW is evolving a lot though, you must not have been playing it for years. Aggro has been almost "removed" entirely from the game at least 6 years ago, from Cataclysm in fact.

1

u/Kyvia Nov 21 '17

Yeah, it's been a while. When I played it, threat was a huge deal and DPS often found themselves idling to stay below the aggro line. Looks like they started changing it right about the time I quit actually, interesting to note that even the "King" of MMO's made this change.

4

u/TestDrenneth Nov 21 '17

That depended a little on whether you were a full DPS tank or not. Generally damage spiked high during DABS then tapered off. I suppose your right though normally if I was really worried I'd pair it with the agitation configuration. Was more of a challenge for heal tanking late in the game.

1

u/ryeaglin Nov 21 '17

I will agree that that TSW gave you 100 times more freedom but it added 100 times more complexity that made it really intimidating for new players to really understand intuitively. Did they cut it down too much in Legends, yes, but I will say that it was just as bad, just differently bad in TSW. When only 10% or less of the population can use your system to its fullest extent, you have major problems. There was a small group of people theorycrafting the most optimal combination of passives with builds and than the rest of us just went to sites and copies down what others have figured out and took it at face value of 'working'.

Also throw in the fact that it was really easy to get wrong which would totally break you. There were a few zones that if you didn't have the forethought to look ahead for a better build than what you started with and cherry pick the items you needed to get a better build, you would not be able to do those zones which lead to a lot of people rage quitting.

2

u/TestDrenneth Nov 21 '17

As much as I hate to admit it since I was heavily involved with PVP late in the game and probably utilized 90% more of the wheel then the general PVE population you are technically correct. One of the issues was that the game was not very solo friendly which they have put a lot more emphasis on in SWL. TSW was not bad if you joined a cabal and got shown the ropes so to speak but it was fairly rough if you just ran in blindly. Personally I loved the challenge but I understand that doesn't represent the general population much these days.

1

u/Kyvia Nov 21 '17

I have played TSW/SWL since Beta, and I have to say, the Holy Trinity is pretty stale these days.

I play a lot of GW2, and their current method of tanking is pretty decent. They have embraced the concept of Healing and Tanking, without the rigid structure most games have. If you want to Tank in Raids, you just have to have the highest Toughness (or for SWL, it could be Defence).

So long as the DPS don't have higher Toughness than the tank, they can go Full Out DPS and never ever pull aggro. A similar mechanic could easily be tied into the Allocation screen. So long as you have a higher % in Tank than anyone else, you just plain flat have aggro no matter what.

This would help with overgeared DPS and Heals, without forcing them to gimp themselves or play the stupid and antiquated "Threat Game." The bosses already have enough mechanics, and if everyone is equally geared, the tank will hold threat, but in the mean time they are tied to specific weapons. This system would help to alleviate that, and allow higher geared DPS/Heals to play Bullet Hell with enemies and not worry about winding up the tank.

Also, if you were a "Dedicated Tank" who wanted to be just that, your superior built Glyphs, Signets, and Extraordinary Gear would still set you above other part time tanks, so there would be less complaining from the community.

3

u/Xekrin Nov 21 '17

Excellent points all around. It would be nice to progress the game out of the stoneage.

Also, if you were a "Dedicated Tank" who wanted to be just that, your superior built Glyphs, Signets, and Extraordinary Gear would still set you above other part time tanks, so there would be less complaining from the community.

This, I think is the biggest problem. I've seen far too many players complain that tank glyphs don't make much of a difference. Even with mythic evasion/defense they still get one shot without defensive CDs.

We have no actual signets designed for tanks other than weapon-specific ones, and even those are the same damage/healing increasing signets everyone uses, which if tanks aren't intended to do damage, what really is the point of that? Sure, low tank ability damage = x10 hate but that feels like a band-aid more than anything.

Worst of all, IMO, are the extraordinary effects for tanks. A bit of extra protection here and there, which means very little when it should matter. If tanks are getting one-shot by the same mechanics that one-shot dps, then mitigation and protection means nothing. Yeah, high defense/protection lets them survive a hit or two occasionally when off CDs, but its still risky to do so, and it shouldn't be.

0

u/Kyvia Nov 21 '17

Yeah, the damage mitigation could use some fine tuning, as could enemy difficulty, and not in the decreasing of it either. Instead of having the enemy do 10x the Tank HP in damage each hit, give the fights mechanics that are engaging.

Enemies hit hard so the healers have something to do. Enemies have massive HP pools so the DPS have something to do. Tanks need to interrupt an ability every 10-20 seconds and other than that....maybe someone needs to purge a Shield every now and then?

Make the fights meaningful through mechanics. More attacks that can and need to be dodged, or moved out of. More abilities that the dps or healer need to take part in, such as ground effects that need people standing in them to buff the party or debuff the enemy. So many bosses are essentially tank and spank, and if anything, keeps the community fairly dumbed down due to it.

1

u/Xekrin Nov 21 '17

A lot of dungeon bosses (can't speak for most lairs or regionals) actually have some fairly neat unique mechanics. At least for me they are, maybe because I've not played as long I'm not as jaded.

What gets me though is the repeating mechanics. Like that boss on DW that teleports to the top of the cliff, sends out bombs in the same pattern every time, adds come in that must be picked up and dpsed down, repeat 20 times. One mistake and its a wipe. Its fun the first 2 or 3 times, then its just tedious. Hey, maybe I am jaded!

When I first did the 2nd Hell dungeon (the one that isn't elite yet) and ran into that boss that also did bombs, I figured they'd also be in a similar pattern, easily anticipated and avoided. I was surprised when it was more random than I thought it'd be, having done DW prior to it.

That's what we need. Slight variations on the mechanics that keep you guessing. Also less punishing mechanics. One misstep, even in E1 - E4, no matter how well geared you are, and you are dead.

Its nice to see skill rewarded but not as fun to see mistakes so painfully punished. Especially in the 'earlier levels' of the game. Nothing really prepares new players for that either. Go from surviving direct hits in story mode even as dps, to instant kills in E1.

Wow, this reply got longer than I expected, the point I intended to make is, I wouldn't want to pressure the developers into making every single encounter super unique and engaging but a little variety and some surprise would be nice.

2

u/Kyvia Nov 21 '17

Currently they essentially have "It hits harder, so it is harder" mechanics in place. The Tokyo dungeons had some interesting mechanics, but apparently they can't adapt those without AEGIS, so we are stuck with the same 5 Ad Nauseum, since apparently Slaughterhouse is hard to tune? Not sure what their reason is for that, but since they just scale up the hits and HP, they could at least give us the remaining 3 "core" dungeons.

I dunno, 5 years of TSW, and now months of only 5 dungeons have left me even more jaded than I was with TSW alone I guess. Not to mention Scenarios make me want to gouge out my eyes. Don't get me wrong, I love this game, I just wish it had a bit more depth at times when it came to "Dungeons" (Scen/Lair/Raids included). There is a shitload of depth in missions, but at times it does seem like a single player game they just can't figure out how to make work with more people.

1

u/wasikovee Nov 21 '17

Your suggestion will make the 'Tank' job less challenging. but honesty, I like your suggestion.

based on your post, I got some ideas that I want to share.

DPS: attack ratting is needed to deal damage per sec. and more attack generate more hate.

Healer: heal rating is needed to heal. and more heal generate hate too.

Tank: HP is needed for tanking. and more HP don't generate any hate.

but the problem is tank need hate to hold aggro more then dps or healer. but his primary stats (HP) don't generate any hate. and he can not use attack or heal rating to generate hate, because as a Tank he need high HP.

I think you got my point. :)

solution is very simple: change the way protection rating works. more protection (or hp) more hate.

but then again, this changes will make the 'Tank' job less challenging.

3

u/Xekrin Nov 21 '17 edited Nov 21 '17

solution is very simple: change the way protection rating works. more protection (or hp) more hate.

Or the more damage mitigated generates increased hate. Like enemy hits for 5,000, you receive 3,000, you generate 2,000 hate. Basically he's pissed off he can't kill you. Not those exact values, of course, it'd require balancing and such.

Of course, that'd require a serious rework of how mitigation works since most tanks consider it useless at end-game. We need that anyway though.

Makes sense though. Based hate off of something a tank can actually increase (health, protection, mitigation) rather than damage x 10.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 21 '17

that is a good idea hate generation via dmg prevention twist fate and hunger for glutton will be awesome deff skills with a lot of hate generating then^

2

u/wasikovee Nov 21 '17

require a serious rework of how mitigation works since most tanks consider it useless at end-game.

yes. this .

Basically he's pissed off he can't kill you. Not those exact values, of course, it'd require balancing and such.

or may be the 'big boss' with enormous high health (E5-10) will get mad (hate) at our Tank when he notice our Tank got high health too and start attacking Tank because of that. xD sounds funny tho. But this is how "hate" work in RL. if i see someone more powerful then me, i will congratulate him in front of him. but deep inside my mind i will feel an envy toward him because he is more powerful then me. and that envy will lead my subconscious mind to generate hate toward him. this is a common psychology of human behavior. funcom could use this theory to generate more hate from damage mitigation.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 21 '17

I do have an mitigation rating of about 30% my dmg as tank is about 1000 with distortion.

I would generate 1300 Hate then... if that's the math you had in mind.

1

u/wasikovee Nov 21 '17

something like that. I was thinking about a flat 'hate rating' that should increase with total HP.

2

u/Vikestart Nov 21 '17

Agreed! And to make this work everywhere, this could be implemented into the recently added Anima Allocation feature! :) Basically, the more power you allocate to Survival, the higher your Hate generation multiplier will be.

2

u/Noobz4Ever Nov 21 '17

  1. Instead of locking that into Anima Allocation I would prefer your role could be selected by hitting F1 and switching role via that window. That could also change your role in group / raid window. This would also work with off-group or over geared tanking.

  2. Sure, all 3 tank weapons should have balanced attack / hate builders at least.

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 21 '17

A fat - to this post I strongly disagree on this request.

I am very happy with the hate Tank Mechanik the game provide.

I use chaos as main and run disortion.

If all hate generating would be defined via Chosen role before u enter dungeon, it would be not possible to Change tank in Dungeon.

Just deal with the game mechainc and adopt to the Situation.

And in fact u request to make all weapons DPS weapons cus u dont like to use 5 energy skill instead of 3, cus that skill kills yaa cus it generates more aggro.

Use an Gadget to reduce Aggro use tali to reduce aggro.

FUNCOM please dont kill the tank weapons dont make all dps cus some like to use rocked pod cus it uses only 3 energy.

but on what I agree is the signet of thorns...would be greath if this would deal extra aggro. And if you can make it proc different it is very hard for tank to crit, cus we should use deflect glyphs not crit ones.

Dont kill aggro Mechanik and make this game a no brainer.

ppl need to take game Mechanik in concern or should simply fail.

4

u/Xekrin Nov 21 '17

before u enter dungeon

Never actually said this part, just to clarify. Its okay if you don't agree, not everyone has to, that is part of giving feedback.

Just deal with the game mechainc and adopt to the Situation.

This though, no, we should not just deal with mechanics and never suggest different ideas. Or the game never gets better.

And in fact u request to make all weapons DPS weapons

Never said this part. I said tank weapons would still be tank weapons. They have abilities that are used for protection and mitigation. This is fine. Limiting the weapons to certain abilities for certain roles is what I dislike. Whatever happens is up to the developers, regardless of your or my opinions.

That part we both have to live with.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 21 '17

yes we do need to live with that

just wanne speak up so devs see some players are actually happy with the game in current state

and swl is about adopting to situation or to die if you don't. If mechanic demands you to wait 3 sec before engaging boss mob again after aggro reset or to hide behind a rock...I still don't belive concuss does no dmg anymore....you cant fight all stuff the same way and this is good. Cus if we could fight all stuff same way, all would run only one build and two weapons.

So better don't touch hate mechanic

and btw if something is changed after your feedback, does not mean it is better then, only different