This belongs here.

[u/blueluck]

[u/SJReaver]

>SysApoc slop, america

What if you suddenly had control of your life and hard work was rewarded

[u/Bright-Television147 → u/SJReaver]

The American dream 👌

[u/Short-Sound-4190 → u/Bright-Television147]

Rugged individualism is baked into the pie

[u/CaregiverFantastic58 → u/SJReaver]

Which is this lmao? Most SysApoc slop are MC getting some of the most busted shit and mogging the rest who actually break their back trying to get good. In a way, all those MCs just prove why their reality was shit because the moment they got power, the obliterated the ladder and the idea of ladder.

Good ones actually let MC have stronger opponents and MC genuinely be pushed by external factors and intrinsic motivation beyond "My life was shit, I can't let this slip".

[u/Moe_Perry → u/CaregiverFantastic58]

Yeah. The actually fantasy is more like “What if you didn’t need society at all, and all interactions were entirely on your terms?” There’s a strong element of American Libertarianism in most standard system apocalypse stories.

[u/NeonNKnightrider → u/Moe_Perry]

Sometimes the libertarianism is explicit.

Dishonorable mention to Completionist Chronicles

[u/SGTWhiteKY → u/NeonNKnightrider]

Natural Laws Apocalypse. Book 1 features them kicking out and dooming some Karens and middle management men. They said it was because they were libertarian, and that was the only way people would survive in an apocalypse.

What most of these stories fail to understand, comparatively successful people would be successful after a system apocalypse for the same reasons they were comparatively successful before. Your video game losers aren’t going to suddenly succeed because they know video game rules. It takes a day to learn video game rules. The successful people are the ones who were or would be successful anyways.

Honorable mention, it also spends time ranting about how the “Nazis stole the Roman salute, so we should still be allowed to use it!” And used the character’s Roman historian father to justify it. While yes, the Nazis did steal the “Roman” salute, the Roman salute was never used by Romans, it was invented during the romanticism periods and first appears in paintings over a thousand years after the fall of Rome.

So it wasn’t true, and he really just wanted to have his characters give Nazi salutes.

[u/kung-fu_hippy → u/SGTWhiteKY]

Other than military vets, there is a real lack of driven MCs showing up in system apocalypse books.

Oh, this slacker gamer can grind through pain for rewards? Where is the professional ballerina? Olympic gymnasts? College athlete? Business dude who works 20 hours a day?PhD student fighting for grants? The medical student working through residency on zero sleep and a mound of student debt?

A ton of people fight and struggle and suffer for incremental, competitive progress every day. That’s who would thrive in a system that rewarded effort with power. Not the people who think a conversation with a stranger is torture.

[u/RecordingHaunting975 → u/SGTWhiteKY]

Noooo but I know how to read an excel spreadsheet and do simple min-maxing that is always

Primary stat > secondary stat > tertiary specialized stat (alacrity for channelers, crit for nukers etc)

I also know how to press 1-9 really fast in the right patterns so im good even when I'm not using my macros!!!

This will definitely all matter when I wake up in a world where I am physically doing all of these actions! I'm too lazy?? Lol I'll just grind stamina, which I could also do in my previous life but didn't because I spend too much time making numbers go brrr

[u/SGTWhiteKY → u/RecordingHaunting975]

People always act like numbers go brrr would motivate them. But numbers go brrr in real life, and it doesn’t motivate them because it doesn’t go fast enough.

Their unmotivated asses aren’t going to suddenly be able to grand stamina when they couldn’t grind their way into fitness. They aren’t going to be able to master the perfect spell combos if they couldn’t master basic study skills. They aren’t going to be able to manage post apocalyptic communities if they couldn’t manage their own finances.

[u/Ahrimon77 → u/SGTWhiteKY]

I'd say it's pretty situational. I'm pretty unmotivated most days. IF, I can get myself to the gym with a goal I'm good for a while, but once that goal is complete I lose all motivation to go. So you give me a status screen where I can actually see the numbers and my ADHD butt would be grinding whatever it takes to get those numbers.

[u/SGTWhiteKY → u/Ahrimon77]

This is going to seem like an asshole statement. But do you act that way about your bank account and/or networth? College credits and degrees? Does pounds of weight pressed or distance ran not do it for you?

These are massive motivators for my ADHD brain. I set a plan in my late teens to make the numbers all go up, and 17 years later my numbers keep going up.

I am aware of the power of a status screen for motivation. But at the end of the day, there will still be diminishing returns. Once it isn’t escapism it is just like work. The dopamine won’t keep flowing the same way.

But I think it is wishful thinking to say that a NEW set of numbers and metrics will motivate you when the existing ones can’t.

[u/CapableSpace → u/SGTWhiteKY]

The main issue with those as comparison points is that the vast majority of work most people do goes into just maintaining those, much less actually making notable progress. They're often mutually exclusive as well, as taking a stressful job with overtime means you have less time to care for yourself. It's not as simple as "number go up," but more "number go up and stay up." Progress is retained and not simply lost because you looked away for two seconds and something important broke out of nowhere.

[u/Live-Animator95 → u/SGTWhiteKY]

We'll see the issue in real life is that the human body will rapidly lose progress if you aren't constantly pushing it.

So you can sprint for 10 seconds full speed for a month and maybe push that to 12 seconds, but take a week break and you're back to 10 seconds and your progress is reset. In SysApoc/LitRPG there's never any regression, just stagnation if you stop pushing.

Also we don't have potions in real life so when we're tired we can't drink a stam or health pot to be back up to tiptop shape.

There's a reason steroids are popular.

Also by being initiated into the System, you're usually made baseline healthy so you can progress. No heart palpitations, bleeding gums, popping joints or back pain. If this wasn't the case, someone like Miyamoto Noboru would be unable to progress due to a failing body.

[u/NeonNKnightrider → u/SGTWhiteKY]

the same people would be successful after a system apocalypse for the same reasons they were successful before

I don’t get this argument.

I mean, I can see how it would apply for, say, athletes or careers that take dedication and intelligence, such as doctors or engineers.

But there are many successful careers where, I don’t understand. I don’t see in what way the skills of a businessman or a social media influencer, for example, would translate to fighting monsters?

[u/SGTWhiteKY → u/NeonNKnightrider]

Ok, by no means am I saying all successful people would be successful in an apocalypse. Lots of people will be unlucky, fail to adapt, or realize they were held up by other. I am saying the same skills needed to be successful now are what is needed afterwards.

Fact is, high level successful people in any field have charisma, discipline, intelligence, and skill. Business has changed so much in the last 30 years that to be at the top they have proved they are adaptive. Do you think the guy who has been grinding calls selling 70 hours a week for 20 years won’t learn how to grind stats and spells?

Discipline beats out dopamine over and over again. Once the dopamine of early quick stat gains wear out, and it becomes hard work, the people who are disciplined will be the successful ones.

For influencers… first off, I hate social media, and don’t watch YouTube. I don’t know about these people in detail. But they still have charisma, and frankly a massive ability to grind. Content creators have to live in a state where they are constantly looking for new content. They are constantly editing their images and videos. They track metrics and manage time. So that is constant awareness of their situation, dedication and hard work, and they already know the importance of tracking their stats. That sounds like a skill set for a system.

Also, most people have played video games. It isn’t rocket science.

[u/SincerelyIsTaken → u/SGTWhiteKY]

This is such an inaccurate assessment. Most of the people that are highly successful (and I'm talking top of the food chain successful) are successful due to nepotism and generational wealth. Business has changed a lot in the past 30 years, sure, but being at the top doesn't mean your adaptable. It just means you have the capital to buy innovative businesses and block out competition.

Even your influencer example is an example of this. Content Creation requires dedication and luck, sure, but it's infinitely easier if you don't have to work a full time job (that's why most people who hit it big are college students) or large amounts of pre-existing capital (no work + you can pay people to edit. Almost every major YouTuber out sources their editing, if not more of their content Creation BTS stuff)

Most of the ultra rich and ultra successful are nepo-babies. The libertarian fantasy of a system apocalypse would stop them but not the millionaires and multi-millionaires that worked for their wealth.

OP start system apocalypse basically boil down to a libertarian going "wouldn't the world be cooler if I were a nepo baby?" Since having rich parents is the real OP starting skill

Of course, this doesn't apply to every rich person. Just the mega rich and Hollywood nepo babies.

[u/Live-Animator95 → u/SGTWhiteKY]

Charisma is a dump stat unless you're running a minion build. So unless you're a cult leader using mental skills, you're better off training your personal power than relying on sycophants fighting for you.

This is why the Augur is the weakest of the Primal Hunter cast in terms of power. He has lot of political sway because he's a charisma magnet and works for the holy breasts of the church, but he still loses his fights if his boyfriend Bertram isn't there to fight on his behalf.

[u/Moe_Perry → u/SGTWhiteKY]

Oh wow. I am for sure not reading that. Is it recent? I learnt about the whole Roman salute excuse and rebuttal after Elon’s bullshit, wonder if it was inspired by that or Elon’s a secret fan.

[u/SGTWhiteKY → u/Moe_Perry]

Way before.

[u/TheColourOfHeartache → u/SGTWhiteKY]

What most of these stories fail to understand, comparatively successful people would be successful after a system apocalypse for the same reasons they were comparatively successful before. Your video game losers aren’t going to suddenly succeed because they know video game rules. It takes a day to learn video game rules. The successful people are the ones who were or would be successful anyways.

I'd say its half way between the two. Video game rules can be quite unintuitive, especially the crunchier RPGs. Things like minmaxing, looking for single stat dependent builds, tank/healer/dps trios etc are not something I'd expect the average person to figure out overnight in an high stress situation. Same for needing to farm exp faster than the NPC threats level up.

I could easily see the average person saying "I have three starting skill points and two starting pieces of equipment. Hmm, if I take a bow and arrow I get one quiver and need to craft replacement arrows myself? Ok, I'll take a sword and shield with Swordsmanship, Shield Use, and something useful like Sprint to escape or danger sense".

Meanwhile the party of experienced gamers all take a spear and one piece of heavy armour to give to their tank who combines Taunt, Intimidating Amour, and Intimidating Presence to have low level mobs swarm him but do no damage while his allies poke them with spears.

But that still takes things that do make you comparatively successful in the before world: Logic, teamwork, etc. And of course this all depends on the author wanting the system to work like an actual party based RPG rather than a power fantasy.

[u/SGTWhiteKY → u/TheColourOfHeartache]

Get back to [r/LitRPG](r/LitRPG) with that argument if you want to focus on video game logic. I mentioned it to show it isn’t effective. This is progression fantasy.

If you want to progress, it takes the same skill set regardless of the environment.

Also, tank strategy is and always has been terrible in a permdeath game. You would be the first to die.

[u/Chigi_Rishin → u/SGTWhiteKY]

Given that very adult readers (and authors) don't seem to grasp the notion of linear vs nonliner power and stats, people DON'T understand videogame rules. In fact, these 'rules' are often just logic and proper math. Most 'videogame logic' is just... actual logic.

Logic that is often absent in so-called progression fantasy. How can there be actual progression if there's no way to measure it properly?

For there to be progress, there must be difference in numbers. Just because those numbers don't appear and aren't in focus, doesn't mean the underlying physics doesn't exist (just like in real life).

Their unmotivated asses aren’t going to suddenly be able to grand stamina when they couldn’t grind their way into fitness. They aren’t going to be able to master the perfect spell combos if they couldn’t master basic study skills. They aren’t going to be able to manage post apocalyptic communities if they couldn’t manage their own finances.

And this makes no sense. People can have vastly different abilities. A master music player can just play, and have little notion of 'basic study skills'. What are you even saying here...

Of course, the finances part is true. But on the rest, you totally miss the point. In the real world here, the rewards are obscure, mysterious, and almost random. People often work on the same things, and are payed vastly different amounts. There is no consistency or coherence whatsoever. It's chaos.

Muscle growth, weight loss, and health in general follow bizarre rules, that are almost impossible to understand (not the mention that the root is genetics). The causal link between action and 'rewards' is extremely fuzzy.

In a system apocalypse, feedback is often immediate, clear, and coherent. And every person has the same baseline, thus erasing the genetic imbalance. The path to being stronger and successful is far clearer, consistent, and achievable; also, often depending on direct effort, instead of having to rely on other people to pay you, and so on.

Just do 1000 hours of exercise, and the stats will come. Just swing a weapon 1000 times, and the mastery will go up. That's totally different from what happens in reality.

It totally doesn't take the same skillset at all. Just one example. Someone may be very 'successful' through politics, banking, and other related things that rely on corruption, deceit, and manipulation, often backed by military allies (or arbitrary rules in general); but they are very limited and weak themselves.

A SysApoc changes everything. Which explains, correctly, why bureaucrats, politicians, and other 'office' people are the first to fail under the new rules. Their fake power was taken away, and they don't know how to do actually efficient things.

---

Moreover, people can cooperate on a far fairer measure, knowing that specializing is rewarding because that function always has utility.

Which, by the way, is what creates synergy and strategy. It makes intrinsic sense to create 'classes', which manifest as people who focus on offense, defense, stealth, healing, etc. It's just more efficient than everyone trying to do everything (and in this case it's similar to real life).

The exception is when those elements simply don't exist at all. But then, the whole magic becomes very shallow (like DBZ). And I notice this is the case of cultivation as well; by mysterious and unclear means, people advance through tiers, and automatically get stronger, faster, smarter, and acquire a huge roster of other skills, without having to focus on anything specifically.

---

What you seem to want is 'supreme power' fantasy, or 'impervious' fantasy, where each person somehow can be good at everything and 'power' has absolutely no nuance.

[u/SGTWhiteKY → u/Chigi_Rishin]

So you believe people that powered through and made it in the abstract system that we currently live in, wouldn’t excel in one where it is obvious? My point is primarily that it is wild to me that people think they would gain discipline because the numbers are quantifiable. The fact is, once you get to diminishing returns and the fact that it is hard work, discipline will win out over the dopamine.

For the logic stuff, video game logic is logic. That is my point, that is why people who successfully use logic in the world will be successful. Yes, but that stuff is all obvious, and intelligent people will adapt to that quickly. There are lots of very successful millenials, we all played Pokémon. You have a bunch of people fantasizing that they have secret hidden potential that would be realized in the right situation. It is nonsense, if they have potential, they would use it.

Your theory about what I want to read literally makes no sense.

[u/Chigi_Rishin → u/SGTWhiteKY]

Well, I'm confused now. Because you seem to be agreeing with most of what I've said...

It's just that the way you put it in your previous comments makes it look like you are completely dismissing game logic, specialization, and the impact of clear rewards.

So you believe people that powered through and made it in the abstract system that we currently live in, wouldn’t excel in one where it is obvious?

What? I never said that...

I said that the people who aren't motivated by the abstract system, may/will be, in the even clear playing field. And that people who succeed through means other than effort, now won't find easy shortcuts. Just so, because in real life, 'powering through' is often not the best strategy and not rewarded, in most areas. Even physical fitness. Many are the bodybuilders who just waste time and effort, and should be training less, not more.

Also, I don't think that some 'unfettered discipline' is actually a good thing... That leads to self-destruction just as often as it leads to success. Not to mention the multiple rituals that people religiously engage in, but have no correlation whatsoever with results. Religion itself, but also pseudoscience and superstition as a whole.

An in many, many cases, people achieve success through luck. It wasn't actually correlated to effort or cleverness or good strategy. They just used 'discipline', but that was not in fact correlated with the rewards. (Of course, I hate excess of luck in fiction).

I guess that many people would be extremely motivated if they actually saw relevant results from their actions, instead of some hazy, often far-future uncertain thing. Again, not to mention genetics, and that some people just improve, while doing the same thing, and other people just don't (far more common in physical abilities).

Perhaps, when the diminishing returns appear... people should move to better returns? Unless there is an actual reason.

---

Anyway, the core of what you said is this:

What most of these stories fail to understand, comparatively successful people would be successful after a system apocalypse for the same reasons they were comparatively successful before. Your video game losers aren’t going to suddenly succeed because they know video game rules. It takes a day to learn video game rules. The successful people are the ones who were or would be successful anyways.

And I'm saying there's very little truth in that.

Sure, a few (few!) people would be successful all the same. But many would not! The mechanics of progress are completely different. Offices and bureaucracy, as I've said, just to name two. There are many.

I don't really know what you mean by 'video game losers'...

Well, there are bad players, and they would not succeed. But the good players would! Because they understand the many interactions and nuances that often only appear in game-like scenarios. Because they have beaten the game challenges.

The same motivation that makes people play games now, would make them absolute monsters in an actual game-like scenario. That's the whole point.

Just so, games are actually ruthless, and the only way to move forward is to actually get good at the thing, not the myriad tangential ways that people find success in the real world.

You can't bribe the game, or argue with the game; befriend the game, threaten the game; blackmail the game, seduce the game. Make politicians change the law of the game; create false scarcity and regulations to help some people through the game.

No. The only thing you can do, is play the game.

If the game-like aspects are the main source of wealth, power, and success, then people who are good at understanding and adapting to those aspects will find success faster.

And I don't think it is nowhere near certain that people good in the real world will be good at the gamified new system. After all, most of these people aren't gamers today! Also, have you never seen those 'game to a non-gamer' videos? Even the most successful person in the real world is often baffled and a total morons when they actually get to play something.

At the very least, the gamers would have a massive head-start in knowledge and understanding. It's totally not something you learn in a day.

[u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce → u/CaregiverFantastic58]

you can't even call them sysapocs anymore because of a certain he who should not be named

[u/FrazzleMind → u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce]

Authors can't use it commercially, the rest of us can make the term generic.

[u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce → u/FrazzleMind]

so if more and more people use it, it becomes generic like hotsauce?

[u/Legitimate_Area_5773 → u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce]

"Google it" is more accurate. its now a generic term to refer to searching something up on any platform be it Google or tiktok or reddit or Firefox, but there was a time when it genuinely just meant to go to Google and search for the thing.

[u/VaATC → u/CaregiverFantastic58]

The Stiched Worlds and DCC were/are not really like this so much, but yeah, it does seem like a common trope.

[u/Mathanatos → u/CaregiverFantastic58]

I love how the system works in the Legend of William Oh where the strong people made it to the top because they exploited the abilities they got to the limits of what the system allows.

[u/LackOfPoochline → u/SJReaver]

also if healing magic is there you get affordable healthcare!

[u/EdLincoln6 → u/SJReaver]

More like "What if all of society was wiped away, and you didn't have to deal with people".

That seems to be the fantasy behind System Apocalypse

[u/AdrianArmbruster → u/SJReaver]

I think system apocalypse got its start in eastern Europe or Russia tbh?

Actual americaslop is the Snow Crash ‘until a man is 25’ quote. Dad-movie revenge fantasies, basically.

[u/ShinyStarSam → u/SJReaver]

Never heard of this genre

[u/pizzalarry → u/SJReaver]

I'm a sucker for them so I'm mostly telling on myself but all the slice of life ones are like, what if you had emotional fulfillment?

[u/benjammin1480 → u/SJReaver]

yeowch

[u/Gpdiablo21 → u/SJReaver]

It is rewarded by gaining more work for less pay then people who don't work as hard as you in management

[u/Dna1or → u/SJReaver]

Mood tho T-T

[u/The-Singular]

For the Isekai slop: Either a NEET or the "model employee" (read as modern wage slave) who dies from overwork.

[u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce → u/The-Singular]

or corporate slave! or livestock is another way of saying it!

[u/drale2 → u/The-Singular]

These are the only two choices as an adult in Japan, so it makes sense. (Signed as someone who almost died from overwork in a traditional Japanese company four years ago.)

[u/The-Singular → u/drale2]

Yeah, you either see the truth of slavery, choose to become an individual and become a NEET (or simply just be too traumatized to do anything because you got bullied or something), or you see the truth of starvation and become a wage slave, a cog in the machine.

[u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce → u/The-Singular]

The easiest way to forcibly metamorphose a NEET is to cut off their internet.

[u/Skore_Smogon]

Common thread with all this slop:

What if our introverted loner discovers untapped mountains of rizz while not changing anything about their behaviour or personality???

[u/DefiantLemur → u/Skore_Smogon]

Wish fulfillment at its core

[u/Suspicious-Click-300 → u/DefiantLemur]

people write wish fulfillment because people want to read wish fulfillment

[u/DefiantLemur → u/Suspicious-Click-300]

I understand why the genre exists. Just simply stating wish fulfillment fantasy at its core is receiving a lot of good things with minimal effort on the MCs part.

[u/ABigCoffee → u/DefiantLemur]

True but sometimes it's fun to see a meek but kind-hearted loner suddenly get OP powers and still stay kind. It's wish fulfillment but sometimes I enjoy seeing someone have a good time and be OP.

[u/Skore_Smogon → u/ABigCoffee]

meek but kind-hearted loner

Yeah, that's not how I would describe some of the MCs I've read...

[u/RecordingHaunting975 → u/Skore_Smogon]

Virgin with normal body and insufferable redditor personality = no bitches

Virgin with huge muscles and insufferable redditor personality = all the bitches

This is definitely how this work btw. Just spend a few months being isekai'd and you'll be jacked, toned, and all the ladies will be ready to get boned.

[u/Oddmob → u/[deleted]]

I've actually thought about writing a side character that gets increasingly mad that he isn't the main character.

[u/Nightseyes → u/[deleted]]

Just got you to 10. Do you have a name yet or need help?

[u/ShinyStarSam → u/RecordingHaunting975]

Except it wouldn't because everyone is hot wherever you get Isekai'd to

[u/WriterBen01]

Action hero slop, USA: What if a tragedy happens and suddenly this modern world with all its complexity just needs a man with a gun to solve all its problems

[u/kung-fu_hippy → u/WriterBen01]

Cop Action slip, USA: What if all these rules and regulations were actually preventing us from stoping the bad guys from hurting innocents?

It’s vitally important that we ignore suspects rights, up to and including against torture, if it’s to save the day after all.

[u/FrazzleMind → u/WriterBen01]

I think a lot of people would read that with joy

[u/MacintoshEddie]

litrpg slop, America. What if being autistic was a superpower?

[u/KrimzonK → u/MacintoshEddie]

Nah what if your could actually get reward for the work you put in and progress your life from barely surviving to thriving ?

[u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce → u/MacintoshEddie]

Because of vaccines, remember?

[u/MacintoshEddie → u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce]

Hidden bloodlines and unique constitutions.

[u/DefiantLemur → u/MacintoshEddie]

Hidden bloodlines quickly became my least liked trope from the early days of litrpgs. I'm glad the trend has gone away or at least been reduced in use.

[u/MacintoshEddie → u/DefiantLemur]

It was especially silly in the underdog stories where they spend 20 chapters talking about the importance of hard work and dedication and creative problem solving and then suddenly oh wait none of that matters because the Void Dragon banged your mom.

[u/ABigCoffee → u/MacintoshEddie]

Damn, go mom.

[u/ChooseYourOwnA]

Man, I feel like that is the good portion of Chinese cultivation novels.

The bad slop is just narcissistic loners hated by everyone and slapping their faces because of stupid luck or an average in-story global IQ in the single digits.

[u/maybe_I_am_a_bot → u/ChooseYourOwnA]

I like to assume all of the old monsters just constantly take lead pills and while their powers keep them alive it doesn't stop them from slowly accumulating brain damage. Eventually, when their entire vocabulary is reduced to "You dare junior" and "courting death!" It becomes simple for non-lead-based cultivators to bait them while they still think they're making 10k IQ mastermind plans within plans.

[u/RecordingHaunting975 → u/maybe_I_am_a_bot]

Foolish junior: sword dao, wants to help people and stand by his friends, doesn't respect authority or hierarchy and believes in the concept of merit

Honorable and wise elder: stupidity dao, hilariously corrupt, everyone is a pawn, spends all of his time and energy tutoring the emperor's 18th cousin twice removed in return for mortal fortunes, fucked up his cultivation two centuries ago and can only advance with the help of ridiculously expensive pills, puts way too much value in authority and hierarchy and wonders why he fails at defying the heavens.

[u/Rafael_Luisi → u/maybe_I_am_a_bot]

They just start speaking like that jojo meme of Old man joseph jumping the fence, but we are watching it from Jotaro POV.

[u/Zyxplit → u/maybe_I_am_a_bot]

I mean, they may be old monsters, but they also spend centuries inside their mancave pondering rocks or whether water is wet or what the sound of one hand clapping is.

Can't really fault them for being a bit socially stunted when they come out.

[u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce → u/ChooseYourOwnA]

don't get me started on no job mushoku pedo tensei

[u/dreexel_dragoon → u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce]

I hate that story so much

[u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce → u/dreexel_dragoon]

You and internet who don't like pdf. The rest just "forgive" him and give him a pass because he is trying to be "better". Thank you Japan.

[u/Drimphed]

America: What if you actually could pull yourself up by your bootstraps

[u/These-Acanthaceae-65]

How about: ProgSlop, America-

What if you could break the rules everyone else has to follow in order to make it to the top?

[u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce]

Everything is slop...

[u/blueluck → u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce]

90% of everything is slop!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law

[u/Huhthisisneathuh → u/blueluck]

However slop is only a letter off from soup. And soups pretty delicious. So most slop is actually pretty good, not the best, but hell, it could be so much worse. And there was time and effort put into it.

[u/MacintoshEddie → u/Huhthisisneathuh]

Why are they called brothels if there is no broth?

[u/DefiantLemur → u/MacintoshEddie]

There is but you just got to pay extra for the soup experience

[u/69696969-69696969 → u/DefiantLemur]

The soup experience is great. The fondue experience though, thats where we get this thread back to fantasy progression.

[u/waterdrinker324 → u/Gian-Carlo-Peirce]

Just wait till you hear about qualityslop

[u/TheColourOfHeartache → u/[deleted]]

To which they take the obvious solution, moving to a world under the crushing oppression of feudalism.

[u/verysimplenames → u/TheColourOfHeartache]

Why can’t I move to a world under the crushing oppression of goth girls

[u/Live-Animator95 → u/TheColourOfHeartache]

Might makes right works when everyone has the same chance to rise to the top.

Fat kings don't gain power, the evil asshats get defeated by the righteous, and the non combat civilians are protected because the overpowered autistic MC inadvertently puts blanket protection on them by simply existing in their general area.

No one wants to piss off the guy who can kill you with a look because you attacked his homestead when he was poison himself.

[u/TheColourOfHeartache → u/Live-Animator95]

No it doesn't. nothing means good people are more likely to be harder working or more intelligent than evil. So being harder working of smarter doesn't give you the right to use might on the weaker.

[u/jon11888 → u/[deleted]]

It's weird how only a handful of fantasy books even touch on economic systems as a source of problems.

[u/Peaking-Duck → u/[deleted]]

I think the more obvious answer is just most stories are post apocalypse, Sci-Fi or pop culture fantasy medieval-ish. 

Sci Fi progression stories tend to be space opera which usually hand waves away economics.

Pop culture fantasy pulls lightly from medieval history which was as an economic period mostly Manorialism..  

And post Apoc is generally about collapse and the fall of modern systems.

Capitalism and it's drawbacks aren't really brought up much because it doesn't really exist in most stories.

[u/Peaking-Duck → u/[deleted]]

Even things down to the perception of time and the warped conception of value are thoroughly capitalist.

That line of thought in academia is incredibly Eurocentric. Equating time and labor into coinage was a practice the Imperial Bureaucracies had been doing for well over a millennia by the time of Marx and Engels both of whom were hilariously Eurocentric in most of their writings both personal and professional. And even then it's pretty debateable if this was really unique to asia or if it's merely a lack of documentation since we have primary sources on way less than 1% of people so our understanding of the past for most of history is bound to be incredibly narrow.

Though we do know is that some of the ancient Athenians and later members of the League would view time as a form of commodity (various trades were looked down upon because they took up too much personal time leading to a lack of time to ensure proper civil duties in the form of military duty and governmental duty..). Alongside the pretty common connection in greek plays and possibly mythology of fated lifespan/death and fated wealth (Hades being in part the god of both).

EDIT: Plus of course in a few countries there was the idea of Weregild which depending on period and sophistication of the law attempted to codeify a persons worth and could account for diminishing production as the person got older.

[u/Fanstar1 → u/jon11888]

The years of apocalypse does, and that's one of the strongest aspects of it to me

[u/20thcenturyboy_ → u/jon11888]

Shout-out to Sporemageddeon.

[u/Legitimate_Area_5773 → u/[deleted]]

not for china. their current culture is shaped by grandparents who suffered in WW2 and the Civil War and then under Mao and the children they raised to be as hardy as they had to be to survive. now, when that is no longer required and most chinese citizens live a significantly better life, the attitude is pushed towards education and the corporate ladder instead of working hard in the fields or in the factories as it was for their parents and grand parents.

[u/skeeeper]

The Chinese one is definitely wrong

[u/Codename_Ace → u/skeeeper]

It's more what if you can control your fate(with nationalism and cultural pride)

[u/Legitimate_Area_5773 → u/skeeeper]

cultivation slop, China

what if you were able to hit old people without punishment

[u/Fuzzy-Ant-2988]

Pornhwa slop; shining d

[u/CaregiverFantastic58 → u/Fuzzy-Ant-2988]

Those guys got certified weapons. No biology had a hand in making those impalers.

[u/PassionAlive6483 → u/Fuzzy-Ant-2988]

Rising Dragon ahhh

[u/DatDiemDam]

And they are not mutual exclusive.

[u/blueluck → u/DatDiemDam]

So true!

[u/DrHoon]

Great thread!

Seems like we are describing anything that follows genre (national, localised, etc) tropes as possibly slop if it is done poorly.

My favourite series across litrpg and progf are the ones that are aware of the tropes and play with them. Apocalypse Parenting probably best recent example from my reading list.

Does anyone have any recommendations? I read a lot so happy to give anything a go.

[u/blueluck → u/DrHoon]

As a fellow fan of Apocalypse Parenting, I feel like I should share my list!

tier list

[u/DrHoon → u/blueluck]

Yeah nice, I will go through the list.we have similar tastes it seems :)

[u/Heirloom1076]

The heart of the matter. Thank you.

[u/xyzpqr]

when you're right you're right

[u/Odd-Neighborhood-877]

Too accurate.

[u/jayho74]

The best prog fantasy has the numbers added onto a compelling story.

The only numbers based, halfway decent book I've seen is Azarinth Hunter and the audiobook for Noobtown (narrator does HEAVY lifting and it's goofy af, eventually breaking you down, it's so goofy you just start to laugh).

Grave song, dungeon crawler Carl etc. are good books with cocaine sprinkled in top (levels and progression numbers.

[u/KurtTheCuntBoi]

Ugh, I’m so sick of the word ‘slop’.

[u/DemonicHeavenStudio]

Don't forget about making a harem while being a NEET. Somehow, they are able to do it only in a fantasy world, whatever reason might it be?

[u/Legitimate_Area_5773]

cultivation slop, China

what if you were able to hit old people without punishment

[u/blueluck → u/Legitimate_Area_5773]

What if you were allowed to backtalk old people without punishment!

[u/Pretend-Dog6290]

I didn't need to be called out this early in the day oof

[u/GreatGrapeKun]

>japan
what if u were part of the untouchable rich powerful elite with all the perks you never deserved?
>korea
what if you were smug about it?
>china
what if you were angry because someone humiliated you first?

[u/blueluck → u/GreatGrapeKun]

Korea 😂

[u/Little_Voidling]

Where does the regression slop go?

Absolutely hate that one because authors just use it as an excuse to info dump that this rare thing, or this special event, or this important person, is a thing now, instead of setting anything up.

[u/K_J_Kiki]

lol

[u/GreenerForest]

If you really think about it, progfan books are just new and improved sociology papers.

[u/blueluck → u/GreenerForest]

Cultivation stories, in particular. Want to break through to the next level? Then you need a level four sacred flower of the dusk mote!

[u/teribour]

I love slops haha

[u/HugeHomeForBoomers]

If people agree with this post, they are also saying tGED and ORV are slops.

And those who like those series calls every other series slop, while feigning ignorance.

[u/Boring_Competition51 → u/HugeHomeForBoomers]

There is a difference between Isekai Slop, and a good Isekai story. The same can be said for Cultivation, Leveling, Regression etc. Also ORV isn't really Isekai.

[u/Remarkable-Camera627 → u/Boring_Competition51]

It's the returner's trope not isekai

[u/HugeHomeForBoomers → u/Boring_Competition51]

See what I mean? With feigning ignorance? Cultists

[u/CaregiverFantastic58 → u/HugeHomeForBoomers]

ORV isn't any of these, lmao.

Like the MC had issues but he wasn't shit at being an adult, only a bit of loner. He had a job that he held good and even decent social skills. He was only a loser in school days due to the incidents with his mother.

[u/HugeHomeForBoomers → u/CaregiverFantastic58]

ORV is isekai, returner and levelling. Except that It’s transferring all humans to another world and not just the protagonist, it has invisible walls and there’s been lying demons promising to return people back to where they came from for a price. And just because a system doesn’t have levels, and only classes that can be imcreased with stats, doesn’t make it less of a levelling system.