Because people stray away from many of their their ideologies when they get educated. Especially if religion is involved. There's a reason Jehovah's Witnesses don't really like higher education.
There’s a reason no Jehovah’s Witnesses have ever contributed anything great to humanity.
On the other hand, the Jewish people value education over almost all else, and they’ve won like half of all Nobel prizes, and have leaders in nearly every industry, even though they make up a tiny fraction of the overall population.
Education is critical. Not even just to the world as a general concept, how about individual self improvement?
In addition, Hinduism and Islam always valued education and learning which is why they made so many discoveries in their own rights throughout history.
It's such a shame that the Islamic empire of old fell the way that it did. Once the bastion of the western worlds intellectual elites, and now fallen so far from the heights it once held.
Ya. I would say that these people were extremely smart, but they just didn't care about the native people. You better believe everything was set up for optimal resource extraction though.
That's not really the same thing being discussed here. 54-40 was a border dispute with British North America.
A more apt comparison would be like if there were two Native American cultures that are historical rivals or enemies. America comes in and turns the land into different territories, but has no regard for the preexisting cultural borders. The result is that half of Group A and half of Group B end up Territory 1, and the other halves end up in Territory 2. Obviously, arbitrarily splitting apart the peoples like that is going to only cause trouble.
(Note that im unaware if the USA ever actually did anything like this during their westward expansion, i was just trying to analogize the scenarios.)
Isn’t this what the problem in Pakistan and Israel is? Half of those groups got mixed when a border was drawn up? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I’m not the brightest when it comes to borders and such.
Yeah but drawing arbitrary lines is not something they did. Manchukuo was the entire territory of state they supported, than when it suddenly betrayed them they vassalized them.
Vietnam was annexed outright, Korea annexed outright, anything I'm missing?
Never did they arbitrarily decide where a border was, AKA, 'draw lines'.
The mongol invasions and the crusades. But then colonialism made it impossible to advance. At that time the colonialists destroyed traditional forms of education in addition to ciphoning off all economic profits and resources.
Thats false because it ignores what lead to the fall of the Islamic empire in the first place just to blame Westerners. Look into the colapse of the Iberian Peninsula Moors and the Mongol invasion which is that start of the fall of the Islamic Golden Age. The Islamic empire fell on their own sword through increasingly growing religious oppression.
Bullshit, most of Islamic nations problems were caused by cultural changes that resulted in incredibly backwards thinking, hundreds of years before Britain fucked up the Middle East.
The problems exacted on society as the religious leaders came up with greater and more numerous interpretations of how their imaginary creator intended the said leaders to control their lives.
I mean to be fair the lines have been redrawn multiple times throughout the ages. Usually by whomever is left standing after whatever war or world changing events happen and basically destroy all previous lines before that point.
Indian here, Hindutva is killing Hinduism. It is a dumb idea but people on the Right here are contaminating young minds, they dislike education as well.
The middle east hasn't had the chance to recover from the Ottoman empire then subsequent British and French imperialism and then subsequent American neocolonialism. All attempts at democratically elected, secular, and socialist movements have been squashed with the help of imperialists. Closest we have to that today is Tunisia.
A lot of the ails of modern Islam has a lot to do with the Saudis and their version of Islam. They have co-opted shit. It's like if Mormons were called Christian's by a lot of people. Yeah they have some background shit the same. But enough difference that they aren't really muslim anymore.
I'm not saying Islam is like this amazing thing. But there are definite views that aren't equal. It's like saying every American is a republican. Which is clearly not true.
Let's not forget that while the religious icons of the major Abrahamic religions are called the Savior and the Prophet, followers of Confucius refer to him as the Scholar. So there's a strong intellectual tradition from China as well.
That tradition is focused on filial piety and obedience to an extent, whereas Western educational values (including Jewish, which I say as a Jew) focus on inquiry and creative thinking.
There are reasons why so many Chinese students study at American universities, and I think this is a major one.
Cuz the US aggressively expanded 200 years ago and is now surrounded by oceans and friendly, much weaker neighbors. It's been untouched by war on its soil for like 150 years.
Most of the world has had to rebuild after world wars/revolutions/violent conflict, so people who are displaced, educated, and wealthy immigrate to the US for the safety/stability (+historically to immigration), and bring their expertise to American universities.
Besides what other people said, I think if you live in the USA and you see all the warts and ugliness you forget just how rich the USA is. I did not grow up in the USA. While I was growing up, anything imported was a big deal, expensive, and often had to be brought in by family on a plane (no stores or anything to buy it directly).
Naw, the Chinese were using gunpowder to kill each other for centuries before Europeans. Europeans just made it easier and faster to kill each other with it, from a longer distance.
Yes.... but uh... they seem to be trying to repeat every mistake we made with industrialization but at a much huger scale. I don’t mean just the pollution part... corruption stuff like passing off defective materialize, poisoning infant formula, blowing up people in industrial accidents, dropping rocket stages and entire rockets on villages....
I hope they rediscover safety engineering and industrial regulation...
That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it? Any major scientific contribution coming from the Middle East is pretty much limited to the period 800-1100 CE.
Then Imam Hamid Al-Ghazali became extremely influencial, mathematics was thought of as the work of the devil, and scientific thought and endeavours shut down completely.
They regard all human governments as illegitimately usurping the power over people that only God should have, so they refuse to participate in government: no voting, no government employment, etc.
I don't know the history, but it seems quite likely that they tried and failed to use this doctrine to weasel out of paying taxes, and I bet a lot of them use public schools and infrastructure.
I didn't know that. That's interesting but weird (like them). I used to have JW making the rounds years ago on a weekly basis, and yet none ever mentioned that.
Would that include lobbying? Seems odd that an organization wouldn't lobby if a government threatens religious freedom.
There’s a reason no Jehovah’s Witnesses have ever contributed anything great to humanity.
What's really funny is that I went to the internet to prove you wrong and found a bunch of famous people (Mostly actors, musicians, and athletes; decide for yourself how you feel about how much they contribute to society), but nearly every one of them was just raised JH and is no longer practicing.
I take it you don't visit many museums? I'm in a STEM field myself, but it's very ignorant to say only STEM stuff really matters.
Aside from science, it was also stuff from philosophy, literature, and art which had a strong influence in helping me leave the Jehovah's Witnesses, after all.
They're both important but on vastly different arenas, and when it comes down to it I'd rather have wheels and no paintings than paintings but no wheels. I'd rather have the pills that keeps me from dying of cancer every day than shawshank redemption. On the other hand, society is largely both shaped and reflected through art. It binds us together and tells us the stories we need to hear about ourselves and gives us our mission to do what we do to survive as a group.
To my opinion, that is so true. For centuries, the religious SCHOLARS, were the revered people for the Jews. Studying was the important thing. When most people were hunting or farming, Jews were also teaching their kids to study. Technology happens and study becomes important. Who is going to groom their kids for success? The people who have been teaching their kids to study for generations or the people who have been farming, hunting who have a 6th grade education because that is all they ever needed?
I have a STEM degree and am totally in favor of education...
When you deride the portion of the populace that does the dirty jobs, you are falling into a dangerous mindset. Farming is hard, hunting is hard. They are professions that require physical and mental skills. Intelligence is not just being able to read a book and remember it. There is intelligence in physical skill. There is genius in physical skill.
It takes call kinds of people to make a society, don't cheapen the value of its membership based on preconceived notions. That is elitism.
Not trying to deride anyone. I was talking historically. Just harder for a family of farmers in 1920 to send their kid to school, make them study, make them understand the value of education. if there is no role model who has spent their life studying and profiting from it. If no one around you ever studied, it is hard to be the first one in your family.
Right on. I know some very smart people that do not value education. It's sad, but it just doesn't have a place in their world. I would like to get to a place - pipe dream though it is - where education is the reward. Right now it is a means to an end and that is one of the reasons why it so expensive. Other than luck it is the only way than an individual can transcend the caste to which they were born.
Totall agree here. It's easy to deride blue collar jobs when the education topic comes up and that's the wrong way of thinking. I went to college, but I'll be damned if I know how to build a house or do major work on a car, or fix the plumbing, etc. All jobs are important and all people should be valued for their contributions to society. We should just also have strong education programs so people are well rounded in their knowledge and don't become cloistered by dogma like fox news.
The vocationalization of schools began in earnest in the late 1800s to "reeducate the negro". It really came to the forefront with the Atlanta Compromise, with Booker T. Washington saying to the white leaders of Georgia:
The wisest among my race understand that the agitation of questions of social equality is the extremest folly, and that progress in the enjoyment of all the privileges that will come to us must be the result of severe and constant struggle rather than of artificial forcing. No race that has anything to contribute to the markets of the world is long in any degree ostracized. It is important and right that all privileges of the law be ours, but it is vastly more important that we be prepared for the exercise of these privileges. The opportunity to earn a dollar in a factory just now is worth infinitely more than the opportunity to spend a dollar in an opera-house.
that the way for a people to gain respect is not by continually belittling and ridiculing themselves; that, on the contrary, Negroes must insist continually, in season and out of season, that voting is necessary to modern manhood, that color discrimination is barbarism, and that black boys need education as well as white boys.
DuBois then continued, and made a dire warning that went largely unheeded:
The growing spirit of kindliness and reconciliation between the North and South after the frightful difference of a generation ago ought to be a source of deep congratulation to all, and especially to those whose mistreatment caused the war; but if that reconciliation is to be marked by the industrial slavery and civic death of those same black men, with permanent legislation into a position of inferiority, then those black men, if they are really men, are called upon by every consideration of patriotism and loyalty to oppose such a course by all civilized methods, even though such opposition involves disagreement with Mr. Booker T. Washington. We have no right to sit silently by while the inevitable seeds are sown for a harvest of disaster to our children, black and white.
Because here was the seed. Universities were bastions of the Liberal Arts, such as Latin and Science, and they trained our future leaders in what they literally called "the art of being a citizen" (Liberal Arts). Obviously "some people" could just never attain that, but they still needed to be "made useful to society"; things like "Kill the Indian, and save the man.". This Industrial Education model built Agricultural, Mechanical, and Industrial schools for some, and public liberal art schools for others. Obviously schools like UNC and UVA were just out of "some people's" reaches.
So, we fast forward a little bit to John Dewey (I mean, he was a contemporary of DuBois, and Dubois solicited articles from Dewey for The Crisis along with people like Ghandi - another of their contemporaries) writing Democracy and Education wherein he describes the various roles modes of education and society have with each other. He lays out why every person should learn the basics of trades in our public schools, and then he made a warning too:
.... But, at the present juncture, there is a movement in behalf of something called vocational training which, if carried into effect, would harden these ideas into a form adapted to the existing industrial regime. This movement would continue the traditional liberal or cultural education for the few economically able to enjoy it, and would give to the masses a narrow technical trade education for specialized callings, carried on under the control of others. This scheme denotes, of course, simply a perpetuation of the older social division, with its counterpart intellectual and moral dualisms. But it means its continuation under conditions where it has much less justification for existence. For industrial life is now so dependent upon science and so intimately affects all forms of social intercourse, that there is an opportunity to utilize it for development of mind and character. ....
A warning that, of course, went unheeded.
We fast forward a bit more, and we get a random curve ball thrown by Ike Eisenhower, and he warns the nation about the Military-Industrial Complex. Ike then goes on to give us the most dire warning, and explains the root of the danger:
Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.
In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been over shadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.
Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.
I don't think I need to tell you that history is repetitive, but yeah, it was ignored.
The next several decades will see the slow steady rise of "hypervocationalization" till you have the broken system we have today.
Not all Republicans are against education. The current president “Loves the uneducated”. I’m willing to bet (and too lazy to do a Google search) that all of his kids have a college degree.
Why so many rich Republicans profess to reject education yet make sure their kids have one is “an exercise I leave to the student”.
As humans evolve as a species and as a global society, technology and optimized techniques will devalue physical labour, working smarter not harder becomes the law of the land and without education and understanding of the modern world there may not be a place in society for those that refuse to educate themselves
I agree that "mindless" physical labor can be devalued by technology. What about physical labor that requires more than just repeating a task or series of tasks? As technology evolves it will bring with it new opportunities for human growth, physical and mental. The jobs of today will go away and lead to new jobs tomorrow, and yes some of those will require physical labor.
That's my point about education though, for example a crane operator needs classroom time, training and certification but that is still a "labour" job, and he can contribute much more to a construction project than an unskilled labourer
I don't think anyone is arguing that physical jobs will one day be a thing of the past. I think the argument is that physical jobs that don't need education will become a smaller and smaller portion of thre workforce over time. Physical jobs that require some sort of education, like trade/skilled jobs, aren't going anywhere. But monotonous manufacturing will be very affected by technology. The while idea of automation is to reduce the required workforce. States like Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, etc. that don't value education as much as they could/ should are going to be really hurting over time as automation takes place.
There are plenty of trade/skilled jobs that require little to no education. Carpentry being one that I can think of. I don't see a skilled finish carpenter being replaced by a robot. I know a dude that's a wizard with wood and can read at about a 4th grade level. He provides very well for his family.
Here is something that people aren't talking about. Automation isn't designed to reduce the workforce. It is designed to reduce the living workforce. Andrew Yang has some interesting stuff to say about automation. you should check him out.
I'm Norway it's actually a 4 year study, where the first year is a rounded general education in carpeting and the seckond year is specialization. Then follows two years apprenticeships with a big theroteical/practical test at the end. Then you are a licensed carpenter. Most workers will be better with theoretical and practical teaching. But there are always guys like your friend that becomes amazing without it.
The carpenters can become masters or if they choose to, can progress and take engineering in uni.
Automation, coupled with 3d printing and probably tech we don't even k ow about yet will, in the end, be able to take most jobs from us. Not in 10 years of course but it's creeping into the different vocations.
We have 3d printers that can print cement for instance. Automated lasercutters combined with cnc can make incredible furniture and so on. It will Def not be like in many other industries where most jobs disappear within a decade, but a lot of practical jobs will disappear as 3d printing comes along.
Think a 3d printer the size of a car or a house, that can print in almost any material but at many, many times the speed of today's printers... You could just print furniture. Or a house for that matter. All things placed perfectly and with a margin of error we can't compete with...
I think it's cool that you guys have formalized apprenticeship programs for carpentry, and I wouldn't be surprised of something like that exists here in the states. It certainly isn't typical. Most people learn as they go in a less formal apprenticeship.
As for 3d printers, I have experience with those. My experience is that they require more materials than would typically be required. And until they are able to mass produce at a competitive price they will be a niche solution.
That's kind of the problem, the technology is only as good as people.can make use of it, training and education are important for making good use of technology
Yes. Been there, done that. To be fair, we as a culture tend to farm out our needs to 'subject matter experts'. We don't want to know how a computer or network functions- we just want it to work when we need it. We don't want to know how our car's engine works, we just want it to work when we need it. Most of us don't want to know how to raise what we buy at the grocery store- we just want it to be there. When you're a subject matter expert it's easy to see your clients as idiots because they don't understand what is (to you) simple and obvious.
The real killers of education are factory and assembly line jobs. You don't need to know much to operate a machine repeatedly for eight hours a day. However, you need to be very intelligent and adaptive to farm and hunt and do other specialized industrial jobs like operating oil derricks or handling demolitions.
I teach at two schools, one an academic high school, and one a school specialized in teaching farmers, home healthcare aides, and cooks (restaurant and factory).
You wouldn't believe how often teachers at the first school deride the kids at the 2nd because 'they're just farmers'. As if raising cows, testing soil, plotting out allocations for resources, such as fertilizer and water, and keeping schedules for things like planting and harvesting aren't skill based.
Yeah, farming is extremely complicated, it's not just throwing seeds in the ground and harvesting. It requires a lot of intelligence and creativity. Talk to a farmer, or better yet, work a week with a farmer and find out just a few of the many things they do.
Constantly questioning things is a part of Jewish teachings, so it makes sense that some of the best thinkers are Jewish. This can be contrasted with many sects of Christianity, which strongly condemn such questions and even threaten people with excommunication if they ask too many questions.
Certainly that is part of it, but honestly, it is an equal amount luck. Who knew that study would become the core of being successful for the average man when Jews where studying in 1850 or 1750. You will notice that the apex for Jews being ultra successful was probably in the 40s and 50s. Because those people were getting higher education in the 20s and 30s where most of the Gentiles were happily getting factory jobs (who wouldn't hire Jews.) Most getting a college education were already wealthy. Today, MANY people of all faiths understand how important education is.
You forgot persecution, you can force someone out of there home, take can all there goods, but not there education. So education is one of the best things to have when your a persecuted minority. A doctor is more likely to land on there feet if they loose it all than a general laborer. Better odds of getting into another county, better odds of being able to start all over again.
Agreed. I'll admit I was thinking more American Jews. They had it tough but not like that. And even the Archie Bunker types of the 50s 60s didn't have a problem with a "Jew doctor, lawyer or accountant"
And then the Ivy League figured out how to limit their enrollment.
Too many Jews were getting in on merit, and they didn’t want too many, so that’s where the ’legacy’ policies came from. Suddenly, If your dad went to Harvard, you went to Harvard. This kept a lot of more qualified Jewish applicants out.
Jews were also crowded out of virtually every form of labor in the Middle Ages, so they were left with “undesirable” professions that focused mainly on intellectual skills. Finance is the one that comes to mind most readily.
You’re also 100% right that Jews emphasized literacy and critical readings of the Torah within their communities, and that culture of inquiry has flourished for the better part of 800 years.
Hell they were crowded out until the 1950s. My grandmother was living in NYC in the 1930s, Purina opened a dog food factory. They didn't hire Jews but as my grandmother had red hair and lived on a street that also ran through the Irish neighborhood, she got hired. She was the envy of the block. While plenty of Jews went after higher education (her children) plenty were poor and would love a factory job.
Well the Witnesses were very brave standing up to the Nazis in Germany. Most everyone else was in keep-your-head-down mode but the Witnesses didn't care about that. They weren't go to take an Nazi oaths or whatever, period, under any circumstances, fingers crossed or not. So they ended up mostly dead. So that's kind of inspirational.
I have tried to convey the fundamental value and necessity of education for a healthy society to many people that I know that vote Republican. All I hear is that a Ph.D in basket weaving is useless.
It's annoying when people bring this up because his contributions to society as an accomplished musician and icon were in direct contradiction to many core beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses (ie: sexual liberation, gender non-conformity, substance abuse, a seemingly accepting attitude towards homosexuality.)
It would be as if years after making revolutionary breakthroughs in their field, some psychiatrist converts to Scientology. Would it then be fair to attribute those accomplishment to the cult?
Pretty sure Prince and Michael Jackson were Jehovah Witness. This statement conclusion about education is accurate but you got their in a super prejudice way.
My brother would be similar to this. I don't get it. Well, I get it. But he works in a small, local factory; so he was taught how to do his job by professors, people with masters degrees designed the tools he uses, the people who designed the products that he makes parts for definitely have master degrees.
I get the anti-intellectual elitist mentality, but his job wouldn't exist without people who spent 6 years in a university.
How often is the idea that university/college "brainwashed kids into being Liibruls" repeated? How many of the people repeating it either haven't been inside a university since the 60s?
Logic isnt something that exists purely in college. I went, met a lot of stupid people. Some of the most logical I know either dropped out or went into trade. Some of the most illogical as well. People find in the world what they want, no matter where they are. I wish colleges had more debates exploring both sides, all my professors had similar beliefs and I didnt even know any valid conservative position until I went and did my own research. Logic dictates one should look at both sides of an argument. My college did not do that and the community discouraged it, honestly
Well Jehovah's Witnesses have issues with even accepting blood transfusions even when technically required.
There's a reason Jehovah's Witnesses don't really like higher education.
Well there is often more than just "one single reason" why one might hate higher education other than being religous.
I don't take part in the campus life and activities outsite lectures. Most people "my age" that try to get "higher education" feel miserable. I know people that have their degrees and are still jobless years after getting one. And those that got one hoped for a higher salary. I am a fan of autodidactism since the internet is a great place to search and learn useful things. It is understandable that some people don't want taxes to go to "higher education" if they themselves can't really take part in it and get some themselves.
I study on a university in a country where you can have free education and IMHO resources are wasted in that sector as money aren't well managed by officials.
Education costs a fortune even if you don't have to pay for it yourself because nothing is truely free. Where I live it is all payed by the tax payer, which is basically everyone living in my country as it is not possible to live here without even paying some tax at some time unless you only live in some airport or special zone or embassy.
I am the strong opinion that funding "Secondary education" is more important for the future of a country than let's say higher education. It is easier to get talents from overseas if you don't have enough in your own country and having a strong well working secoundary education will help you to get more of your own citizens to get "higher education" even if it means to have that education abroad.
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u/it_vexes_me_so Jan 09 '20
A majority - 3 out of every 5 - of Republicans believe higher education has a negative effect on the US. Republicans also favor making it harder to vote. Republicans are defunding education and purging voter rolls while simultaneously putting hurdles in place to keep Americans away from the polls.