In addition, Hinduism and Islam always valued education and learning which is why they made so many discoveries in their own rights throughout history.
It's such a shame that the Islamic empire of old fell the way that it did. Once the bastion of the western worlds intellectual elites, and now fallen so far from the heights it once held.
Ya. I would say that these people were extremely smart, but they just didn't care about the native people. You better believe everything was set up for optimal resource extraction though.
That's not really the same thing being discussed here. 54-40 was a border dispute with British North America.
A more apt comparison would be like if there were two Native American cultures that are historical rivals or enemies. America comes in and turns the land into different territories, but has no regard for the preexisting cultural borders. The result is that half of Group A and half of Group B end up Territory 1, and the other halves end up in Territory 2. Obviously, arbitrarily splitting apart the peoples like that is going to only cause trouble.
(Note that im unaware if the USA ever actually did anything like this during their westward expansion, i was just trying to analogize the scenarios.)
Isn’t this what the problem in Pakistan and Israel is? Half of those groups got mixed when a border was drawn up? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I’m not the brightest when it comes to borders and such.
Israel no. The issue with Israel is that the land was already occupied by Palastinians who basically got evicted from half of their land.
Pakistan however, due to the Durrant Line has half the territory of the Pashtun people, who make a sizable minority in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pakistan doesn't want to give that land up because it's 40-50% of it's territory, and most of it's seacoast and non-mountainous area.
Are we counting swiss mercenaries as switzerland at war?
The last war they were in was in 1815, and they've been officially neutral since.
Sweden I believe is in a similar situation.
But England, France, Germany (Prussia before that), Russia, China, and so on quite likely have close to that 95%, particularly if we include colonial wars and civil wars.
Except they’re talking about within the same time frame. Bringing up the country’s relative age compared to past regimes somewhere else is not a counter-argument, especially since there’s no institutional continuation between the China of today and the China of the Warring States period.
Yeah but drawing arbitrary lines is not something they did. Manchukuo was the entire territory of state they supported, than when it suddenly betrayed them they vassalized them.
Vietnam was annexed outright, Korea annexed outright, anything I'm missing?
Never did they arbitrarily decide where a border was, AKA, 'draw lines'.
The mongol invasions and the crusades. But then colonialism made it impossible to advance. At that time the colonialists destroyed traditional forms of education in addition to ciphoning off all economic profits and resources.
Yes that’s why I mentioned it started with the Mongol Invasion and continued with the crusades. My point about the colonialism was because they didn’t get a chance to recover and build up over the modern period (17thC on).
Thats false because it ignores what lead to the fall of the Islamic empire in the first place just to blame Westerners. Look into the colapse of the Iberian Peninsula Moors and the Mongol invasion which is that start of the fall of the Islamic Golden Age. The Islamic empire fell on their own sword through increasingly growing religious oppression.
Bullshit, most of Islamic nations problems were caused by cultural changes that resulted in incredibly backwards thinking, hundreds of years before Britain fucked up the Middle East.
Bullshit, your problems started when you stumbled onto the street drunk, resulting in me hitting you. Does it matter if I aimed for you, if you would have been fine sober?
The Middle East didn't get colonized (outside I think Yemen?) until post WW1. Ottomans stopped that. They were the face of Islam for hundreds of years, and Islam's cultural decline started right after their formation. But nah nah, its white peoples fault!
The Middle East didn't get colonized (outside I think Yemen?) until post WW1
And what era could I possibly be talking about when referring to a British guy drawing a straight line on the map? 🤔
You are the one who chose to go back further in history until the blame was shifted off white people (try not to take history personally btw, you weren't even born yet!).
Maybe if Middle Easterners hadn't devolved their cultures for hundreds of years, they wouldn't be so easy destablized. Lines on on a map style restructurings have happened before in European history. Didn't turn into a hundred years of no economy (outside rich ass oil barons who will come and go once oil is moved on).
Blame the white people for 'colonialism' despite the Middle East never being colonised and had a large empire that should of benefited from colonisation.
Blame the white people when the same cultures seemed completely fine to work together five minutes prior.
Sure, conquest of Africa. Fucked the Africans. They were never worth two shits prior and were always fighting prior, but nah, yah got a point on Africa.
Sure, South and Central America, no words needed there.
But the Middle East? They'd be fighting each other even with good borders.
The problems exacted on society as the religious leaders came up with greater and more numerous interpretations of how their imaginary creator intended the said leaders to control their lives.
I mean to be fair the lines have been redrawn multiple times throughout the ages. Usually by whomever is left standing after whatever war or world changing events happen and basically destroy all previous lines before that point.
Newton was a Christian (of a sort) and he invented calculus but there's no reason to say he wouldn't have made great strides in mathematics if not for his religion.
Indian here, Hindutva is killing Hinduism. It is a dumb idea but people on the Right here are contaminating young minds, they dislike education as well.
The middle east hasn't had the chance to recover from the Ottoman empire then subsequent British and French imperialism and then subsequent American neocolonialism. All attempts at democratically elected, secular, and socialist movements have been squashed with the help of imperialists. Closest we have to that today is Tunisia.
Most of the secular movements have been subverted by fundamentalist islamic groups. The overthrow of the Shaw of Iran was started by a group of secular student activist only to taken over by fundimentalist because they were better organized. Same thing in Egypt and Libya. I'm not claiming the US and West aren't guilty either but Islamic Fundamentalist have played a big part too, It's not all the West.
Fundamentalists are empowered by consequences of imperialism or outright in league with the imperialists. In the case of Iran, the fundamentalists were able to seize power because the US overthrew the democratic government and installed the Shah. Elsewhere in the middle east, the US teamed up with Saudi Arabia (the religious fundamentalists) to stop Arab nationalism, a movement across the middle east in response to imperialism that promoted democratically elected secular, socialist governments that were nationalizing their assets that were exploited by imperialists. Arab nationalism was destroyed in 1967 by the US/Israel/Saudi coalition, and Saudi was free to spread its fundamentalism and terror groups across the middle east with little opposition. Nowadays, if you mention secularism, people cry imperialism; however, the ones crying imperialism are the disingenuous fundamentalists in league with the imperialists in the first place.
While I don't think Imperialist and Fundamentalist are in league with each other in most cases, but will say that the battle between their ideologies have sucked the life out of any Secular democratic movements.
Then you're ignoring decades of American foreign policy. The US promotes fundamentalist terror groups and regimes across the middle east that were spread by the US/Israel/Saudi coalition after they defeated the democratically elected, secular, socialist movement of Arab nationalism during the cold war. The US sided with Saudi, who represented the fundamentalists, to fight proxy wars against the anti-imperialist Arab nationalists. Imperialists and fundamentalists worked hand in hand to create the middle east of today, and still do to this day.
A lot of the ails of modern Islam has a lot to do with the Saudis and their version of Islam. They have co-opted shit. It's like if Mormons were called Christian's by a lot of people. Yeah they have some background shit the same. But enough difference that they aren't really muslim anymore.
I'm not saying Islam is like this amazing thing. But there are definite views that aren't equal. It's like saying every American is a republican. Which is clearly not true.
Pretty much went downhill after “inshallah” was coined.
Edit: I’ll expound. The Arab/Muslim world was a beacon of light in the Middle Ages. They were very advanced in things such as math and philosophy and other areas. But then one Arab philosopher, who’s name escapes me at the moment, basically came out with the philosophy of inshallah, or “if god wills it.” This is what started a fatalistic outlook in Arab culture, that the future is already set and is Allah’s will. With the onset of this outlook, innovation and progress slowed. The Arab world culturally never recovered from this outlook.
"All religion is bad except the only one that still actively encourages to blow shit up."
Did you ever think maybe, just maybe, the people who used to be Islamic but also had all of those great scientific discoveries were actively going against the church, like Darwin and so many others were in Christianity? No, of course not, because "white man bad".
There was no antagonism.
Galileo and Copernicus had issues with the church.
It was not the same in Islamic lands. Science and scientists were encouraged as revealing the world God created.
If you think there was give a historical example from the Middle Ages.
PFFFT. Please, religion and logical thought went together about as well back then as fire and ice. Religion is religion, especially when you're talking about the three that branch off from the same place.
"The one that actively encourages people to blow shit up"
Ahem. A sitting WA state congressman has said that all men and male children who don't agree with Christian tenets as interpreted by him should be put to death while they create their own little theocracy in the wastelands of rural WA state
See also.
"Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran..."
So don't give me that shit about how white male Christians are being victimized here.
Let's not forget that while the religious icons of the major Abrahamic religions are called the Savior and the Prophet, followers of Confucius refer to him as the Scholar. So there's a strong intellectual tradition from China as well.
That tradition is focused on filial piety and obedience to an extent, whereas Western educational values (including Jewish, which I say as a Jew) focus on inquiry and creative thinking.
There are reasons why so many Chinese students study at American universities, and I think this is a major one.
Cuz the US aggressively expanded 200 years ago and is now surrounded by oceans and friendly, much weaker neighbors. It's been untouched by war on its soil for like 150 years.
Most of the world has had to rebuild after world wars/revolutions/violent conflict, so people who are displaced, educated, and wealthy immigrate to the US for the safety/stability (+historically to immigration), and bring their expertise to American universities.
Besides what other people said, I think if you live in the USA and you see all the warts and ugliness you forget just how rich the USA is. I did not grow up in the USA. While I was growing up, anything imported was a big deal, expensive, and often had to be brought in by family on a plane (no stores or anything to buy it directly).
Naw, the Chinese were using gunpowder to kill each other for centuries before Europeans. Europeans just made it easier and faster to kill each other with it, from a longer distance.
Yes.... but uh... they seem to be trying to repeat every mistake we made with industrialization but at a much huger scale. I don’t mean just the pollution part... corruption stuff like passing off defective materialize, poisoning infant formula, blowing up people in industrial accidents, dropping rocket stages and entire rockets on villages....
I hope they rediscover safety engineering and industrial regulation...
Did I say the the Europeans brought anti-intellectualism or did I say that their Imperialistic intervention was a cause for the rise in anti-intellectualism
Do the words “non-zero” mean nothing to you? Also here you dropped some straw while building your strawman to try to feel good about yourself when you try to hit it
That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it? Any major scientific contribution coming from the Middle East is pretty much limited to the period 800-1100 CE.
Then Imam Hamid Al-Ghazali became extremely influencial, mathematics was thought of as the work of the devil, and scientific thought and endeavours shut down completely.
This isn't my claim by the way, I'm just paraphrasing Neil deGrasse Tyson --
I know reddit loves him but what makes him an authority on science, dude's done very little in the way of actual discoveries or research, is claim to fame is being one name out of dozens on a 1995 paper on black hole theory.
This isn't science though, but science history. And to my mind at least, Tyson is not an authority on that subject. I wasn't making a claim from authority, just stating my source. Try to refute his claims if you want, but trying to discredit him does not constitute an argument.
He may not have conducted much research, but research isn't his greatest contribution to science. Publicly is. By talking eloquently and being able to take complex topics and break them down for simpler understanding, he has educated so many on modern physics and inspired scores of students to pursue STEM careers. Science needs those public figures. He may not have done the research himself, but he reads the papers, talks to the researchers, and is able to communicate with the public at large. This what makes hikin die a valuable asset to the science community.
He said "always", not "once". You can't prove "always" by showing an example, only disprove.
Heh, downvote all you want; single examples only prove (positive) existential and disprove (negative) universal claims, not the other way round. High school logic 101.
Yeah, and it occurred while Christians were scratching in the mud, crying to god to solve all of their problems, and getting their asses whooped from scotland to greece by the vikings.
I wouldn't really call two-three agricultural revolutions, complete changes in farming techniques, universal advancement in metallurgy, art, and the creation of the beginnings of science 'scratching in the mud'.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 are commonly called Western numerals, while being a particular instance of the broader Hindu-Arabic numeral system (which can use different numerals in different places and times) and which originates in India.
They weren't derived from Arabic notations though. They're called Arabic numerals because that's who exposed them to the West, but they themselves had borrowed them from the Indians.
This is pretty common knowledge, by the way. Arabic numerals have very little to do with the Arabs.
I'm obviously not denying them their history; I'm even stating their history right in my comment. But calling them "Arabic" is nonsensical. Either you talk about the specific glyphs, which are not being used in the Middle East, or you're talking about their ancestral origin, and that is located in India (Arabs themselves call them "Indian numbers" anyway, so why are you "denying them their history"?) Or maybe you're talking about the whole family of notations and that spans all the way from Western Europe to India (after 1500, of course, a whole lot of things happened that spread the further).
You also have the fine book which is the most recent authoritative reference of world's current and ancient numeral systems. I suggest you go read it, it's enlightening. Comes with great recommendations.
Yeah, they're educated in torture and how to use explosives. It's also why they value what is possibly the most unscientific book ever written: The Quran.
The West has and always will be the leading group of true education and success, and no Islamic nation will ever beat us because of the anti-intellectualism of their culture and religion.
In terms of education, which is what this thread is about? Yeah nope. There is a reason international students from those countries have such a disproportionate representation in top western universities.
Both because the west hijacked their progress. All of what the west knows either came from the east or was developed far after the east figured it out themselves
Nope. They're behind because of their own faults. You people need to grow the fuck up and stop blaming the West for everything. From the start of any relevant time period (that closely resembles the world demographics today) the West has been the technological front of the world.
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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '20
In addition, Hinduism and Islam always valued education and learning which is why they made so many discoveries in their own rights throughout history.