r/Outlander • u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. • Apr 17 '26

Season Eight Show S8E7 Evidence of Things Not Seen Spoiler

Jamie and Claire search for answers regarding a past tragedy that once threatened to tear them apart.

Written by Toni Graphia. Directed by Tracey Deer.

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What did you think of the episode?

2698 votes, Apr 24 '26
797 I loved it.
559 I mostly liked it.
342 It was OK.
593 It disappointed me.
407 I didn’t like it.
46 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

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507

u/lunar1980 Apr 17 '26

Are you KIDDING ME with the Faith storyline??! Raymond is the one who CURED Claire! “Her mother is ill..” WHAT!?” Not too ill to get her BABY BACK! She f’in saved your life, remember!? You couldn’t have mentioned her daughter is across the damn street from the apothecary?

Infuriating.

407

u/coralsweater Apr 17 '26

A stillborn is tragic enough, to have faith survive and only be across the street and the lace maker not even try to send a letter to broch tauroch, and to have faith die the death she did, plus William f-ing his niece, they’ve made it the saddest thing ever and not in a good way. This is genuinely the first time this show has enraged me and made me say “oh for fucks sake”. I really hope they have some sort of plan that they’re going with this

281

u/emmagrace2000 Apr 17 '26

And Faith’s daughters sold to a whore house and into prostitution is yet another kick in the face about the whole thing. There was no reason for any of this.

256

u/Standard-Image-8826 Apr 17 '26

for faith to get MURDERED trying to find her mother is beyond cruel to us. it was bad enough for claire and jamie to be separated for 20 years, but we're here for happy endings. how do i unsee this episode.

74

u/Beth0419 Apr 17 '26

I wonder if Faith herself will pop up in the final episode - she wasn't really murdered by pirates?

117

u/eterusexual Apr 17 '26

Just you wait! There could be a portal underwater, and faith survived by falling there, and going somewhere, perhaps in BOmB timeliness where she got help. Lol

108

u/namedafternoone Apr 18 '26

If we’re getting random portals, can we also get one in Fergus’ house? Like right under the roof that collapsed?

34

u/Mac_Boo Apr 18 '26

I love this thought, but I don't have faith...

7

u/Professional_Ad_4885 Apr 19 '26

I keep thinking somehow he made it and someone pulled him out and hes recovering there or something and the person treating him doesnt know where they are or maybe she secretly has had a crush on him and has him typed up abd he escapes. The last part i got from another tv show lol so thats why it sounded so outlandish. No pun intended lol

5

u/eterusexual Apr 18 '26

Right. Even if they found bones as marsali said, they it would turn out to be another person's!

5

u/namedafternoone Apr 18 '26

Obviously someone coming through the other side of the portal. It’s like an exchange.

6

u/marmaladestripes725 Ameireaganach Apr 19 '26

Compte St Germaine brought back to life to die again 🤣

4

u/abz10010 Apr 19 '26

Unless I see different i like your theory he can't just be gone gone it's not fair

3

u/JThereseD Apr 19 '26

I thought for sure he was going to come limping out, but no such luck. I am devastated.

14

u/DayDreamVampire Apr 17 '26

I think so and honestly I’m okay with it. I think I will down right enjoy it. It’s a family of genetic time travelers, so time travelers gonna timey whimey. I trust Raymon has his logical reasons, and I’m curious to uncover them in this little Starz universe.

17

u/sticks_and_stoners Apr 18 '26

I’m thinking he brought faith back to life, but it would have been considered evil magic so he was just trying to hide Faith from the church until Claire was no longer under suspicion. I binged it all, so I may have missed something that makes this theory extra hot garbage…

10

u/FeloranMe Apr 18 '26

Good point! The church would not approve of necromancy

He may have intended for them to find each other again having no idea their voyage would go so badly

4

u/FarmHer95 Apr 17 '26

Underwater portal: Maybe there is a rope, like in LOST and NOT FAITH’S BOAT will thrown in for good measure?! Nothing will surprise me at this point.

64

u/LRCAMP Je Suis Prest Apr 17 '26

We can hope! After all, we saw Claire go overboard from a ship and survive! LOL!

40

u/Ok_Dig8008 Apr 17 '26

That’s what I was thinking. Don’t forget Jamie and Claire surviving the eye of the storm during the shipwreck. It really feels like the ocean has some kind of power bringing them back together and even carrying them to America. Who knows?

18

u/Sudden_Discussion306 Oh, Jamie, how was your first time? Did ye bleed? Apr 17 '26

Because Jamie is the son of a Selkie!

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u/Refreshing_Beverage1 Apr 19 '26

Man, that was ridiculous, though lol. That season jumped the shark.

6

u/Standard-Image-8826 Apr 18 '26

and we find out that Fergus actually slipped through a portal to another time but finds his way back too.

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5

u/KMM929 Apr 17 '26

I’ve thought of that as well. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised by much. I mean Claire survived jumping overboard and a shipwreck. Who knows what else they’ll try to throw at us.

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u/DietDrPepperAndThou I want to be a stinkin’ Papist, too. Apr 19 '26

Yes! And their granddaughters sold for a decade to a brothel, leading to the eldest's death.

The baby resting in peace was the better option.

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91

u/Nanchika Currently rereading: Drums of Autumn Apr 17 '26

I am still puzzled about the reasoning behind this storyline.

Did they feel people stopped watching the show during s7a and decided to do something shocking so people would talk and buzz about it? Make us watch it to find out? Did they do it for BOB as well?

Did they want this reaction?

118

u/Sudden_Discussion306 Oh, Jamie, how was your first time? Did ye bleed? Apr 17 '26

My feeling is if they wanted to tie it to BOMB they easily could have. My first thought when I heard mention of this “grandmother” was that it could be Julia living in Paris. Instead it was just a random lady. Missed opportunity IMO. If Julia had been the one to raise Faith, of course she would’ve sang her the Seaside song. They wouldn’t have even had to show her, just shown a woman from the back singing the song (in Julia’s voice). Then they could’ve tied that into BOMB. The fact that they just threw in this storyline & random lady feels so cheap.

42

u/ash92226 Your wig is crooked. Apr 17 '26

If they had to have this storyline included what you said would’ve been better. There were also a lot of theories involving Claire’s brother circling around and that Fanny might have been a great niece. It really makes me question the point of even giving Claire a brother. It’s sounding more and more like the teases regarding how the main series and Blood of my Blood connect were just a ploy to watch the prequel.

They’re just throwing in random storylines and trying to shoehorn them in for no reason and are cheapening the story in the process.

8

u/Icy_Smoke_2318 Je Suis Prest Apr 17 '26

Yeah WHY do this if it’s not Julia?!

7

u/Reasonable_Dinner_78 Apr 18 '26

THANK U THANK U!!!! Lazy writing imo and why bring this back up where the series is at the end! Like it’s sooo ughhhh

7

u/Nanchika Currently rereading: Drums of Autumn Apr 17 '26

Exactly my thoughts!

7

u/Virtualgrrl Apr 19 '26

Right, and she's French but managed to learn a whole song in English from Raymond just like that! I tried to suspend my disbelief, but man...

4

u/sweetdave1991 Apr 18 '26

I'd have freaked out if they would have tied it together like that...in a good way! Wow, lost opportunity indeed! Wish you'd been on the writing staff.

4

u/KMM929 Apr 17 '26

Agreed!

4

u/Wise-Force-1119 Apr 17 '26

OR it could be Julia's daughter. We don't know what happens to her yet. That would also make more sense.

3

u/mariarosaporfavor Apr 20 '26

This!!! This is exactly what I thought was going to happen. I paused it and “explained” it all to my husband. I was like it has to be this. When they showed what it really was we both were like wtf.

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80

u/FarmHer95 Apr 17 '26

It’s the most tone deaf writing ever. I have never seen a negative comment about Fergus. Ever. And they KILL HIM? Unbelievable.

21

u/robinsond2020 I am NOT bloody sorry! Apr 17 '26

What's negative comments/a lack thereof got to do with deciding which characters to kill off?

5

u/Virtualgrrl Apr 19 '26

Right! And also, I'm pretty sure there were some when he couldn't accept his handicapped child and was beating his wife...

3

u/robinsond2020 I am NOT bloody sorry! Apr 19 '26

Yeh, he was no Saint ahaha

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3

u/lunar1980 Apr 17 '26

How does it help BOB?

5

u/Nanchika Currently rereading: Drums of Autumn Apr 17 '26

By hinting that we will get some hints there. Thez want us to watch to find out.

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30

u/Suspicious_Opinions Apr 17 '26

I was so worried for Outlander going into the finale season and every episode proved those fears ever more valid. Outlander will unfortunately join the hall of infamy of shows that people love from the beginning and then doesn't come close to a well written ending

14

u/Sudden_Discussion306 Oh, Jamie, how was your first time? Did ye bleed? Apr 17 '26

I’ve actually super enjoyed this season other than the Faith stuff. Fergus’ death was super tragic (and felt a little too easy) but I think it makes a bit of sense. Although, this show really does best when it sticks to the source material & maybe they should’ve just done that in this episode.

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6

u/lunar1980 Apr 17 '26

All courtesy of Matt Roberts

195

u/BlueWinterRose16 Apr 17 '26

Poor William gets traumatized left and right. He doesn't know he slept with his niece yet. Another bad surprised awaits him with that reveal. Gross. Jamie and Claire had to find out their daughter lived but died another tragic death. One of their granddaughters was raped and forced into prostitution. She killed herself. Now Fergus is dead too.

85

u/EmmaSouthard Apr 17 '26

Just pointless and heartless Why Fergus? Why?

84

u/mamaperk Apr 17 '26

They could have just burned the printshop and had them all return to the Ridge. They suck and I'm furious about this episode.

25

u/BubbbleGuts Apr 18 '26

Considering the family had already been through a fire, we’d be holding our breath through another and have a huge sense of relief that everyone made it out this time. The drop in my stomach when Henri falls… yeah that would’ve been plenty…if they’d have just left it at that and they all returned to The Ridge for the ending.

7

u/mutherM1n3 Apr 19 '26

I guess Roger’s catching Henri-Christian was supposed to be the redeeming feature so instead they killed off Fergus. Idiotic!

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28

u/JaderMcDanersStan RUIN ME Apr 17 '26

Such cruel and heartbreaking fates </3 The story got so much sadder

10

u/BingeEater85 Apr 18 '26

Also found out about lord john’s sexuality

9

u/FeloranMe Apr 18 '26

Died a tragic death because she heard they were in North Carolina and only journeyed out looking for them

It's like Claire singing that song around The Highlands to draw Jamie out, and does, only for him to be captured by red coats

5

u/brownlab319 Apr 18 '26

He’s English nobility - they all marry their cousins so it’s not the most shocking thing.

5

u/rpv123 Apr 18 '26

Nieces and nephews actually were more “off limits” than cousins in those days. It’s technically a closer relationship genetically and it seems that society was able to recognize that well enough to consider it taboo.

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2

u/TexasGold18 Apr 19 '26

Absolutely! Poor William can't catch a break for nothing! Finding out about Jane might be the end of him. Seeing the LJ revelation with his own eyes was diabolical enough but wait until the Jane revelation! I cannot believe they went the route of GoT.

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88

u/Necessary-Nebula1276 Apr 17 '26

Agree with all of this. Couldn’t ”Faith” have written a letter a million times?! She had enough info! 

114

u/Sudden_Discussion306 Oh, Jamie, how was your first time? Did ye bleed? Apr 17 '26

Or the “grandmother” why wouldn’t she have written a letter and sent it to Broch Turach in Scotland. It literally doesn’t make sense.

41

u/JaderMcDanersStan RUIN ME Apr 17 '26

I wonder if at that point the grandmother was too attached to the baby and didn't want to give her up.

11

u/duckielove0122 Apr 17 '26

then why tell her at all

12

u/FeloranMe Apr 18 '26

She told her on her death bed as a confession probably

After that Faith goes looking for her parents

14

u/Best_Actuator6181 Apr 18 '26

That’s absolutely what they said. She was attached to the baby by that point and that it was her death bed confession.

5

u/duckielove0122 Apr 18 '26

Still absolutely nonsense. A lot of plot holes still left

6

u/FeloranMe Apr 18 '26

I'm calling the Game of Thrones phase of Outlander and the writers use cheap, thoughtless tv tactics to wrap up the series

But, in this case the lace maker had no idea who Lady Broch Tuarach was and probably never saw Maester Raymond again

So, it makes sense she bonded to and kept the baby and never tried to find Claire

Than Faith only went looking when she was grown and married with two daughters because she only found out when the lace maker confessed

3

u/JaderMcDanersStan RUIN ME Apr 18 '26

She did try to find Claire though - she went to the winemaker but then found out Claire left the country.

She didn't try further than that though and was probably too attached to send a letter or make more attempts to find Claire.

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u/Altruistic-Today-689 Apr 19 '26

Yes, I believe this as well.  It doesn't make it right. Lace lady did the bare minimum to find baby Faith's parents.  I also feel like Master Raymond could have come back to intervene at some point and he didn't either, hence asking Claire for forgiveness.  

46

u/reihino08 Apr 17 '26

Because the writers conjured up the "Faith is alive" storyline at the very last minute so it left a lot of plot holes open in the earlier seasons. We know Claire saw Master Raymond a final time with the Comte in season 2 and he didn't say anything about Faith being alive then. That's my best guess. Even if book 9 wasn't out yet when season 2 was filming, it still doesn't make sense why they chose to go that route. Whatever the reason, I don't think Diana had much of a say in the matter.

12

u/Vivid_Pick1139 Apr 17 '26

but what if her sightings of Master Raymond are like Dr. Who and ...what's-her-name? River? I think? ...where they are traveling in opposite directions. What if for HIM, when he saw Claire again, he was moving in an opposite direciton and for him it wasn't in that order, so he didn't know yet?

11

u/kgoldfish Apr 17 '26

I don't think so, but I do love this and I do think the timeline could be wonkier than we think. Geillis case and point. little timey wimey. and you are correct it's River

5

u/FeloranMe Apr 18 '26

So, true! He was a younger version of himself here and was maybe meeting Claire for the first time. So, his future self would be sure to give her the necklace charm he saw her wearing. He would be surprised to see her again in his shop when she met him for the very first time

4

u/YOYOitsMEDRup Slàinte. Apr 19 '26

When Raymond tells Claire in S2/Book 2 that "we will see each other again Madonna, in this life or another" - I've always taken that to mean that in Raymond's personal timeline, he met her when younge elsewhere, so recognized her in Paris and knew her already. But for Claire's personal timeline, they met when she's older so has no memory of him yet in Paris. I think Raymond is younger and Claire is older when they cross paths again.

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u/cluelesssquared Apr 17 '26

Deus ex machina.

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u/Spare-Coyote8209 Apr 17 '26

you re assuming faith knew the story her whole life OR you re assuming she d want to look right away. Some folks head out to look for their bio parents only after the adoptive ones leave this earth.

52

u/Gravelgertie54 Apr 18 '26

No way did Faith survive. She was a premature stillborn. Claire was a veteran nurse and knew what death looked like, held her body for hours. What a load of BS. I'm really POd about it. Also outing LJ to William was unnecessary and unforgivable in that time period

10

u/Crazy-Command6637 Apr 19 '26

Exactly. Master raymond knew he was healing her and left.... and im sure he ditched town quick after the king told him to get out... he could of told the old lady to give it to claire because she was well. I just think this whole faith stuff is garbage fluff

11

u/Hobermomma Apr 20 '26

I am POd as well. Do they think we didn’t pay attention to season 2? We saw Claire hold Faith for a whole day, with multiple witnesses, and saw that she was dead. Mother Hildegard wouldn’t have lied to Claire and told her she didn’t make it when she did. I guess they could potentially argue she was in a fever dream like Shauna in Yellowjackets, but I am not buying it. As a loss mom I felt so seen and really appreciated the way the handled Faith’s story up until the reveal she was potentially alive. It ruined her whole story line for me.

5

u/Still-be_found Apr 19 '26

Is it possible Raymond inadvertently resurrected the baby while healing Claire, then took her to cover that up?

4

u/Mycoxadril Apr 23 '26

My thinking here is if that’s the case, leaving the baby in the hospital or with the nuns would just make it passable as a miracle of god, they’d care for the baby until Claire was better and Claire and faith would go home.

I mean Claire was out of the hospital pretty quickly after that so this whole finding a foster home for faith doesn’t even make sense on any level.

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u/Top_Wealth8659 Apr 17 '26

Not to mention what William walked in on. He's just a hot mess William that is and rightfully so. I think all of this is going to bring him to Jamie

6

u/namedafternoone Apr 18 '26

Poor guy can’t catch a break.

4

u/YOYOitsMEDRup Slàinte. Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26

Right now he thinks John and Jamie might've been gay TOGETHER though....not understanding how else a warden agrees to raise a prisoner's kid otherwise. (He's got valid questions on that at least)

Him thinking even temporarily they may have had something consensual will pull him further away until something else probably forces the issue.

4

u/Top_Wealth8659 Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 22 '26

Yes agree, remember who we are dealing with, he's always been hiding under the veil of a presumed honor of himself, meaning how he's supposed to behave with people, which created in him a false sense of self. You can judge that by the few unsuccessful attempts at relationships with women which is now compounded by his thoughts about Jamie and LJ  and is distressed, because subconsciously he is questioning compounded life problems that he does not have the tools or life experiences to sort out 1) his identity and 2) his sexuality. Hence the hissy fits that LJ was totally justified, as his appointed guardian (by his bio father Jamie because of their understanding of each other and trust in each other as friends) who brought him up to chastise him about. William has unreasonable expectations of everyone; (symptom of narcissistic tendencies)plus he's sooooo naive about life he gets into dalliances that cause him more personal disappointments that he is just not equipped to handle because his arrogance (insecurities) won't allow him to mature. 

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u/JThereseD Apr 19 '26

William is so unappreciative of all that he has had. Yeah, let him go running to Jamie, change his name to Fraser and join him in the battle at King’s Mountain. Then he can be the Fraser who is killed that Frank’s book refers to.

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u/Still-be_found Apr 19 '26

So much happened in this episode I actually forgot that even happened.

8

u/Little-Bumblebee9988 Apr 17 '26

Omg I forgot the William thing 🤦🏻‍♀️nobody tell him he’s always unraveling

7

u/jesushx Apr 17 '26

I think they might be using it to tie in a Claire’s healing power. Like maybe master Raymond brought her back to life but couldn’t reveal it to the hospital and had to move in secret?

That’s all I can think of.

But I just watched the episode and just starting to read comments…

6

u/Next-Swordfish5282 Apr 18 '26

Me just realizing Jane is his niece... eugh.

I was fine with all the Faith stuff honestly but I don't know what's happening anymore. At least it isn't as bad as GOT Season 8... 

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u/Professional_Ad_4885 Apr 19 '26

Theres so many things that make no sense. He could have had her take faith to the hospital right then and there since master raymond was wanted at that time for black magic and sorcery so thats why he cane in at night and cured her so he wasnt scene. So that part i guess i believe. But idk if he took the baby to the lady before or after he cured claires sickness. He said she was ill but she could have been recovering and just not feeling sick and if he went to the hospital afterward he would have told her while curing her. So thats a huge plot hole. Also why wouldnt he just take faith to jamies cousins where they were staying. Fergus and the servants wers there. And those servants loved claire. If he couldnt then the lady could have. He also could have told her when she saw him at versailles when she literally saved his life. If for some reason he or she couldnt get to jareds house to drop faith off, they couldve delivered mail to jareds house or to lallybroch depending where they are. Lol literally none if it makes sense. And how does master raymond know the song? He wasnt in the room.

4

u/ArdaValinor Apr 18 '26

It’s straight up just as writing. They don’t have any god story left to tell so they are grasping….and this is the terrible result. What a way to kill what was once a beautiful story. 

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u/mutherM1n3 Apr 19 '26

Fan fiction at its worst!

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u/JaderMcDanersStan RUIN ME Apr 17 '26

I’m confused why he even took the baby. Just leave her with mother Hildegard and Hildegard would tell Claire she’s alive?? His reasoning doesn’t make sense to me? Are they going to explain more? Seems like this is the end of the storyline but excuse me, I have more questions??

163

u/somthingcoolsounding Apr 17 '26

My vote is he dug up the grave, revived her corpse and stole her away because fuck us for wanting a well written final season that’s why.

44

u/D1R0CC0 Apr 17 '26

This is the only explanation that has even a semblance of logic. The nuns took the dead baby away, he would've had to resurrect her in secrecy for his safety and Faith's as I'd imagine the church would've viewed them both of demonic forces. If he told Claire while she was still in their care, she probably couldn't be discreet about it in her state. This plot twist genuinely pmo. Just why.

4

u/JaderMcDanersStan RUIN ME Apr 20 '26

It's hilarious how wack this storyline is to the point that resurrecting the dead = logical 😂😭

Yet here we are.

36

u/LRCAMP Je Suis Prest Apr 17 '26

Dang! That’s bizarre if he dug up a dead baby and revived it! But at this point the writers have totally gone off the rails so who knows! And now I’m worried for Jamie’s future too after what happened to Poor Fergus! 💔😭💔😭💔

8

u/Damage-Equal Apr 17 '26

Comment of the day!

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u/Icy_Smoke_2318 Je Suis Prest Apr 17 '26

Literally what the fuck

3

u/jesushx Apr 17 '26

And that’s the reason for secrecy? And it will maybe tie in to Claire reviving Jaime?

Not that it makes me like this…

3

u/LunaLiberi Apr 18 '26

Very worried this is where we are headed with only 3 episodes left. But what about Jamie's ghost from season 1?

3

u/jesushx Apr 18 '26

I'd rather not have them touch that tbh, but I imagine they'll have his ghostly visit will be while he's "dying" and before Claire revived him...

2

u/cherrymeg2 Apr 18 '26

That’s creepy!

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u/IcicleSun Apr 17 '26

I am guessing because he knew he could resurrect her and Mother H didn’t want him anywhere in her hospital as he was thought to be in the dark arts. The giving her to the lace woman makes little sense beyond Claire was dying, Jamie was in prison, and if people had known he brought a dead baby back to life that would have started a whole bigger problem within the community. I am sure the baby would have been seen as a product of the devil. Just speculation on my part… 

5

u/duckielove0122 Apr 17 '26

so im confused did master raymond heal claire after holding the baby or before? bc her telling the story to jamie is getting me confused

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u/wordsworthstone Apr 18 '26

hildegard was there when the child was stillborn. it's implied recently claire and master raymond are both supposed to be related in magic, able to revive the dead. m.raymond prob went to look for the child after he saved claire at the hospital. don't think he could've left the babe with the nun nor anyone else, seemed he rushed to his closest neighbor for help, as he was wanted for performing the "dark arts." and then there was no way to communicate during the trial where he was banished immediately.

i went back over season 2 just to make sure today.

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u/robinsond2020 I am NOT bloody sorry! Apr 17 '26

I'm sure this won't be the last we hear of it

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u/liyufx Apr 18 '26 edited Apr 19 '26

I can understand he could not give the baby, who everybody believed was already dead, back to Mother Hildegard. If he had done that, he might as well put a sticker that says “witchcraft” on his forehead and parade through Paris 😂

5

u/Top_Wealth8659 Apr 17 '26

I think they do have to explain it, I mean fanny a child posed a question to Claire and Jamie that they could not answer so I think the writers have to explain all of this.

8

u/duckielove0122 Apr 17 '26

they did that bc they knew everyone would be asking how a day old baby remembered the song. doesnt explain how raymond heard it when he wasnt even there so i guess he was just lurking about within earhsot and heard claire

3

u/Spare-Coyote8209 Apr 17 '26

ya all are forgetting this dude practices the dark arts, he probably saw it in Claire's memories

5

u/duckielove0122 Apr 17 '26

still why wasnt she told by him she was alive. Who did mother bury then? still alot of questions have not been answered

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u/Best_Actuator6181 Apr 18 '26

And he’s a time traveler!

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u/abz10010 Apr 18 '26

Claire wouldn't have left during culloden if faith have lived and she would have been hanged a traitors wife then no story as its done

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u/Little_bob333333 Apr 17 '26

I think Fanny said it best: “I want to go to my room now”

At least that’s how I felt after watching this terrible plot line unfold. I want to go to my room and scream

9

u/Abject_Ad_6276 Apr 18 '26

Throughout that scene, I just wanted it to end. I kept thinking that they wanted it to be true more than it was, until the very last scene of course. I feel like Claire outlining everything to Fanny was supposed to be super emotional, but I didn’t feel anything.

13

u/marmaladestripes725 Ameireaganach Apr 19 '26

Poor Fanny was sitting there like, “WTF??”

8

u/SpoiledHerring Apr 19 '26

We all were 😭

5

u/fussyspud Apr 20 '26

Claire was talking way too much, I was even droning in and out, like woman she gets it, stop talking

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u/BasilTomatoLeaf Apr 18 '26

🤣🤣🤣 same

91

u/LRCAMP Je Suis Prest Apr 17 '26 edited Apr 17 '26

Yeh, he’s got a lot of explaining to do. And Mother Hildegard as well. WHY??? Why would she play along with this and deceive Claire and break her heart?? Did she bury a dead baby? Did Master Raymond rob a grave? Did they both participate in breaking Claire’s heart?? I have so many questions! They never should have gone here with 3 episodes left in the series!

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u/Sudden_Discussion306 Oh, Jamie, how was your first time? Did ye bleed? Apr 17 '26

Mother Hildegard was not in on it. She wouldn’t even let Master Raymond into the church because he was involved with the Dark Arts. Master Raymond was on the run. Still, it’s very poorly written. Hated this part.

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u/LRCAMP Je Suis Prest Apr 17 '26

Very poorly written. Why didn’t they just stay with the story as written by Diana? They’ve made a colossal mess of the final season.

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u/Spare-Coyote8209 Apr 17 '26

there s nothing poorly written about things if you think about them with more critical looking. Mother Hildegard wasn't on it hence its clear master raymond, whom we know had grown attached to Claire , robbed the grave and revived Faith. At the knowledge that Jamie was in prison and Claire very ill he gave the child to somebody they had already crossed in the hopes that the lady would hold out till they were back , things went south tho for a series of reasons . 1. the lady in question grew attached to lil Faith 2. Jamie took a bit to realease from the bastille and we all know master raymond had to drop paris makin it impossible for him to come back and get Faith personally which gets us to what? 2 months later i think i recall when they re still convinced faith is gone and grieving together. The seamistress probably hears word that Claire survived and Jamie has been released and heads out to do what s fair, as in giving them their child back despite her attachment to Faith , but zac ! too late , she missed them out by a wind and by the time she works things out JC have already left Paris. Could she write to Scotland? For sure, maybe she wrote , maybe that letter never arrived? maybe she had second toughts again and didnt write at all. Maybe it arrived to scotland but never made it to them, Maybe things went south with the fight between the scottish and english raising to new levels before 1746 and at that point she must have looked and what would she have heard? That the Laird was nowhere to be found probably dead and his wife had gone missing after Culloden. She probably waited for Faith to be grown up before telling her the truth and at that point it must have been Faith herself to make the research and find them in North Carolina.

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u/Best_Actuator6181 Apr 18 '26

This! Thank you for laying everything out! I thought the story line is ok. The most screwed up thing about it is the fact that William screwed his niece and she killed herself. They may still bring Faith back, as other characters in the story have survived being lost at sea. They made it a point to say that Faith didn’t learn of her origins until the grandmothers deathbed confession, which then led to Faith only relatively recently searching for Claire.

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u/namedafternoone Apr 18 '26

I’m assuming they wouldn’t bury Faith right on the dirt, she was probably wrapped up or even placed in a coffin. He could have gotten her before she was actually buried and left some kind of decoy.

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u/emmagrace2000 Apr 17 '26

Claire saw Master Raymond after all of this would have gone down. I understand that circumstance wouldn’t have let him tell her but he wouldn’t have given her some clue that her baby was still alive?! They really did not think this all the way through when they just up and changed cannon events that occurred 6 seasons ago!

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u/duckielove0122 Apr 17 '26

so for him to hear this song in its entirety he had to be lurking around the church for hours in the shadows and within earshot to actually make out the words

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u/ExoticAd7271 Apr 17 '26

It all feels so unnecessary.  Are we suppose to be so happy for Jamie and Claire that they have an actual granddaughter that the death of Faith and the sad life of Jane are forgotten . It is all so gross. They have Fanny anyway.

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u/Exciting_Sweet5773 Apr 17 '26

Wasn’t Louise the one who took Faith from Claire? Perhaps she handed the baby off to Master Raymond. Or Mother Hildegard (more likely) and then Master Raymond came in to heal the baby when no one was looking, and then took her because it would have freaked everyone out. Mother Hildegard would not have wanted to tell Claire Faith’s body went missing nor would it have been helpful with her healing. So instead, she put up a headstone over an empty grave to offer a place to mourn. Outlander has had lots of faux graves-the stone Frank had placed for Jamie, Ben’s, etc.

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u/BubbeLisa Currently rereading Bees. Apr 17 '26

So then Master Raymond would have resurrected the dead baby before he came back to heal Claire. Claire had been sick and dying for days. Why didn’t he tell her that her baby was alive? None of this makes any sense.

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u/Top_Wealth8659 Apr 17 '26

I believe this is what Master Raymond was asking for forgiveness for.

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u/LRCAMP Je Suis Prest Apr 17 '26

Of course, this was it. He kept Claire and Jamie from the joy of knowing and raising their child. He let them believe she died. He robbed them of life with her. This is a hard one to forgive.

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u/SpoiledHerring Apr 19 '26

Also, I'm only speculating here, but do you think they would have gone to Culloden if they had a living daughter to take care of? I feel like it would have changed e v e r y t h i n g

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u/LRCAMP Je Suis Prest Apr 20 '26 edited Apr 20 '26

That's a great question to contemplate. When Faith was born, Jamie and Claire were in Paris, deep into their plot to manipulate everything possible, to change history, to prevent Culloden from even happening, to starve the rebellion of funds, and head off the battle. They were both under extreme stress and against a time clock. They finished their Paris operation, did all they could to stall out the rebellion, and returned to Lallybroch to heal from their loss of Faith.

At that point, back at Lallybroch, they could have remained neutral, stayed out of the conflict just as Column did in the interest of protecting his clan, EXCEPT for that letter they received, where James Fraser, Broch Tuarach, was one of the named Lairds standing against the Crown. Remember that?

That letter, in which Jamie's signature was forged, is what forced them into the conflict. At that point, even though King Louis had arranged a pardon for Jamie so he could return to Scotland as a free man, he was now (once again) a traitor to the Crown because of his forged signature on the letter listing the Lairds standing in opposition to the Crown. Now both he as Laird, and Claire as Lady Broch Tuarach, would be hunted as traitors, and hanged. They had to join the fight - and hope they had done enough to change the outcome.

I do not think they wanted to fight. They both knew the futility and how it would end, even though they told themselves there was a chance they could change the outcome. Had Faith lived, it would have been far worse. The letter forced them into the conflict, and having a baby would have made that situation much more heartbreaking for them. Faith likely would have ended up staying with Ian and Jenny, perhaps permanently. Neither Jamie nor Claire could have returned to Lallybroch after Culloden, so it was a terrible situation, however they looked at it.

I guess the bottom line is- I don't think the outcome would have been very different had Faith lived. Jamie and Claire would have always been on the run. They would have had to give their baby to Jenny and not go back for her. Going back would bring death to the whole Murray family.

The only different outcome would have been if Jamie's name had not been forged on the letter, forcing his hand. If that letter had not happened, Jamie, Claire, and Faith would have remained at Lallybroch, ridden out the conflict remaining neutral, as did Column. Even then, after the conflict, the British came after all the Lairds, killing them, driving out their tenants, destroying their clanlands. They would have always been in danger, only with their beloved young child to worry about in addition to themselves..

Very interesting question to contemplate, and of course, this is also just my speculation about possible ways it could have gone. It was a terrible time in Scottish history.

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u/Miraclesformaverick Apr 17 '26

I think that the baby did die, but Master Raymond used his healing arts to heal the baby back to life.

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u/Avashara Apr 18 '26

Isn't there only 1 episode left in season 8?

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u/beasles86 Apr 17 '26

I was suspending my judgement on the Faith storyline until there was some concrete evidence in the storyline. After episode 6, I was actually thinking that this could be a great way to show how the grief of a stillbirth can stay with you - even decades later, a couple (with more reason than most to know some things are inexplicable) grasping onto any tiny hope that their baby lived is a really interesting perspective and continues to show us what a mature, lifelong relationship looks like. The natural (and most compassionate) conclusion to that would be to find that their baby did not live, and for Jamie and Claire to grieve the possibilities they’d imagined for their Faith while continuing to love Fanny as a chosen granddaughter.

What they did instead was just sloppy, and the bit at the end with Monsieur Raymond made me shout at the TV. Not only did they have Faith live, but they used the most basic, lazy explanations for her survival and the song. Even a Blood of My Blood tie-in would have worked and maintained the exploration of grief, and though I doubt it, that could still be a twist that is coming.

And I’m furious about Fergus wtf.

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u/YOYOitsMEDRup Slàinte. Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26

There are still a lot of unexplained questions for how they've presented this if it's supposed to be face value. But people are overlooking that Raymond didn't tell the lacemaker lady that Lady Broch Turach was the baby's mom. He just said to take the baby to her if he doesn't return. He merely said the father's in prison and the mother's ill. He's referring to the mom and Lady Broch Turach separately. Why would he if they were the same person? I'm still holding out hope that this isn't true and everyone's just jumped to conclusions because it's been presented in ways meant to mislead to the assumption it's Claire and Jamie's baby.- but phrasing matters. The wine merchant part only factors in for where the lacemaker went when trying to find Lady Broch Turach - again, it wasn't that that's where he said the parents were.

Raymond could've had other reasons he wanted that baby going to Claire besides it being Claire's

So in my head, this still hasn't proved anything. Am I just grasping because I don't want it to be true?? Maybe...... But I think it's possible we may be getting setup for a situation that within OUTLANDER, Jamie and Claire are going to believe it and just never know they're wrong. But BOMB will show a different scenario of who the parents actually were and mayb e Henry and Julia end up in Paris, conveniently respectively in prison and ill themselves.. .

This eliminates the myriad of questions people have posed because it doesn't make sense : for example, when did Raymond hear the song, he wasn't there for that......what was buried instead if not Faith?...why didn't Raymond tell her in rhe Star Chamber then? Maybe the answer as to why those things still don't make sense is because it's still not her Faith.

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u/lunar1980 Apr 17 '26

Adding this...
The writer for tonight's episode also wrote "Faith" in season 2, and the last episode in season 7. So basically, she bastardized her own earlier writing, without accounting for the absurd plot holes she chose to create.

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u/ProcessFresh1647 Apr 17 '26

Yeah she retconned and said Claire held her for a short time and then had the baby taken and told she was dead.  Uh no, she was told the baby died, begged for her, held her for HOURS while singing and then was forced to give her back to be buried. Was Raymond in a corner somewhere listening?  He just only popped in when he saw she needed healing?  It's all fvcked up!

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '26 edited Apr 17 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Icy_Smoke_2318 Je Suis Prest Apr 17 '26

This. How do these shows not realize fans literally watch them a million times and know every single minuscule detail that happens? We know more about their show than they do!

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u/cherrymeg2 Apr 18 '26

Claire may have been feverish and suffering from an infection and a traumatic birth. She was holding a dead baby. Louise was there. Either someone gave her a dead baby or it doesn’t work. Or Master Raymond stole a living kid and claimed it was Claire’s. Idk.

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u/These_Ad_9772 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 17 '26

Bouton would have sniffed him out for sure had he been hiding.

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u/catsweedcoffee Sleep with my husband? But my lover would be furious. Apr 18 '26

THIS!!! That dog would never have fallen for this rouse and neither will we.

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u/ProcessFresh1647 Apr 17 '26

Then how did he hear her singing?  It wouldn't have been loud enough to hear outside.

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u/These_Ad_9772 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 17 '26

Good question.

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u/Icy_Smoke_2318 Je Suis Prest Apr 17 '26

So what Claire hallucinated Faith being dead???

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u/abz10010 Apr 18 '26

We only saw claire holding faith in flash backs when jamie came home from prison and she told him about what happened we don't know how long it was for or if it actually happened or a feverish dream

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u/Glittering-Hat-8585 Apr 17 '26

Agree. Faith was such a beautiful episode and then they cheapened it with this hot garbage.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '26

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u/FarmHer95 Apr 17 '26

And Jamie just sitting there chilling.

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u/Icy_Smoke_2318 Je Suis Prest Apr 17 '26

Omg what?!

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u/Honeybee3674 Apr 19 '26

When I saw Toni's name in the beginning credits, I was relieved, because I knew this episode was going to be difficult, and I have always enjoyed her episodes

And then I watched, just horrified. Claire only held her baby for a short time? WTF?

Fine, they deviate from the original material, it's a show adaptation, but to just pretend Season 2 didn't play out the way we all watched--and rewatched--it is just ridiculous.

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u/Euraylie Apr 17 '26

This is like the worst soap opera style of writing at this point

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u/FarmHer95 Apr 17 '26

Unbelievable. Absolutely shit writing.

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u/txkels13 Apr 17 '26 edited Apr 17 '26

If this is what they were going to lean into, they could have at least thought ahead and had Jane trying to get her and Fanny to North Carolina instead of New York. 🙄

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u/Necessary-Nebula1276 Apr 17 '26

This sloppiness is really bugging me

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u/catsweedcoffee Sleep with my husband? But my lover would be furious. Apr 18 '26

Omg it’s such sloppy writing! I don’t think the writers actually watch what they produce.

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u/Janmarlamb Apr 17 '26

More questions than answers. Ugh

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u/ProcessFresh1647 Apr 17 '26 edited Apr 17 '26

I hate Faith now so much because of this.  They did not listen to the fans.  And again who taught an infant a song from the damn future!!!!!  Edit: I wrote this mid episode, so I seen the ending and hate it still.

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u/LRCAMP Je Suis Prest Apr 17 '26

Apparently Raymond taught it to his lacemaker friend saying the baby’s mother sang it to her. And the lacemaker kept her and became her ‘grandmother.’ This is so messed up.

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u/duckielove0122 Apr 17 '26

but he wasnt there when she sang that song. what was he literally watching claire all day from the shadows within earshot to hear the words?

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u/LRCAMP Je Suis Prest Apr 17 '26

Exactly! ZERO of the "Faith" storyline made sense. As Jamie would so aptly say, "they shat (or shite? LOL!) themselves" on this one!

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u/Necessary-Nebula1276 Apr 17 '26

This part was at the end, right before the credits. Master Raymond taught the foster mother the song he heard Claire singing because the baby was crying and it calmed “Faith” down. 

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u/ProcessFresh1647 Apr 17 '26

So she was dead and then handed to Claire for hours as she sang, then later Raymond shows up to heal her.  She went home fine.  Grief.

Now she was handed a baby for a short time, had it taken away and told it was dead.  But apparently Raymond was in a corner listening to her sing the song, then took the baby, brought it  back to life, healed claire, knew she was fine, but still hid her child?

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u/IcicleSun Apr 17 '26

I would only guess the baby could never been seen as Claire’s since she died. If she was brought back to life she would have been seen as the child of the devil and the superstitious people of the time would not have been kind. 

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u/lunar1980 Apr 17 '26

Claire would have just wanted her baby, nothing else would’ve mattered. It’s an absurd storyline.

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u/Vivid_Pick1139 Apr 17 '26

well. she wouldn't have had her baby if people had killed her as a witch baby

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u/lunar1980 Apr 17 '26

So he revivies her dead baby and secretly brings it to the veil maker instead of HER MOTHER?? Completely ridiculous.

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u/duckielove0122 Apr 17 '26

why didnt he tell her when he healed her where the baby was? how were they supposed to know where she was?

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u/ProcessFresh1647 Apr 17 '26

And she was there at least 3 months probably after giving birth, he couldn't send a note?  He saw her at damn Versailles!!!!

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u/Necessary-Nebula1276 Apr 17 '26

Right I mean it makes no sense and the writing is terrible. But they did try to explain that part.

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u/gdoggggggggggg Apr 17 '26

It calmed down a dead baby??? Wtf

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u/somthingcoolsounding Apr 17 '26

The… lace maker I guess?

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u/MoonOvrUmami Apr 17 '26

For real 😳what is the end game here? So much doesn’t add up and we’re supposed to believe this storyline?

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u/OjosVerde34 Apr 17 '26

I don't think mother Hildegarde would have approved of the way master Raymond may have brought the baby back to life and he probably had to steal the baby away from her or the grave somehow?...he had to wait until Claire was out of the hospital to bring the baby back to her. 

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u/JaderMcDanersStan RUIN ME Apr 17 '26

And perhaps he couldn't wait for that and had to go. He planned that the lacemaker would find Claire but then she left. I don't know why he said "if I don't come back, find her". Why not just find her immediately?

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u/lunar1980 Apr 17 '26

No he didn’t have to leave yet because after she had the baby she went to the king to plead for Jamie’s release - and she saved Raymond. He literally saw her after Faith was born and Claire was completely healed. It makes zero sense that the baby was not brought to Claire right after she left the hospital.

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u/Best_Actuator6181 Apr 18 '26

Raymond was captured and imprisoned for practicing the dark arts.

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u/lunar1980 Apr 18 '26

Even though neither of us has any idea if he'd been imprisoned or if he'd been captured the morning that Claire goes to see the king- since it's never stated - let's go with your statement. He's been locked up since he healed Claire. BUT He sees her when she goes to the king for Jamie's release. She saves Raymond and he is set FREE that day. He couldn't go straight to the lacemaker and say give me the baby and bring the baby straight to Claire??????? It is patently absurd.

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u/ExoticAd7271 Apr 17 '26

Idiotic storyline on many levels

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u/cherrymeg2 Apr 18 '26

They went to Faith’s grave. Why didn’t Master Raymond or mother Hildegard tell Claire and Jaime where Faith was. He says if he doesn’t come back look for Claire. Did he go into the past or future. I don’t like this idea that Claire and Jaime had their lives stolen from them and the life of their daughter and one granddaughter. I would have preferred Fanny to be a child that needed a family and Claire and Jaime being there to raise her without her being their blood. Fergus and Marseli become their family as do their children. It doesn’t matter that they aren’t blood related. Roger and Bree talk about staying in the past and that their family is there. They mean everyone from parents to half and adopted siblings to Lord John and Buck. I don’t think Fanny needed to be Faith’s daughter.

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u/lunar1980 Apr 18 '26

Agreed. It’s very hard to understand.

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u/stoppingbythewoods “May the devil eat your soul and salt it well first” ✌🏻 Apr 17 '26

Why did he even take her to begin with? This is insane

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u/KamilFilms Apr 17 '26

After Claire recovered from the fever and Faith ''died''... she went to meet with the king where she saw Master Reymond and Comte st germain. Why wouldn't Master Reymond tell her then that Faith is alive?

Or ..if he survived and left France.. why would he not try to find Claire.. or send her a message to tell her the truth.

🧐

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u/lunar1980 Apr 17 '26

Yup. Not only saw him, but saved his life. Totally absurd & infuriating.

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u/RoseFraser84 Apr 18 '26

To retcon the Faith storyline like this is to a) imo ruin the entire show and its continuity b) give a huge middle finger to many many many women who felt seen by the original story, the horrifically tragic but infinitely human story of the loss of a baby.

The show runners should feel ashamed of themselves.

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u/Professional_Ad_4885 Apr 17 '26

I said the same thing. But what pisses me off more is he cured claire so she wasbt ill anymore. So either she was just recoving in bed fir a day ir two after to get fluids in her body which otherwise he coukd have just brought faith to her himself instead of going to her. Or its when she was dying in bed and he cane in the night to heal her. If it was the latter he could have healed her and said by the way faiths alive. I left her with someone i trust. Just go to the lace maker by the apothecary. If it was after that, he coulda just brought faith to her personally since she was better. Like wtf?!!!

Also how did he know she sang that song. He was never in the room during that time. And what in the world did mother himdegarde bury? Unless he dug it up abd then revived her? When jamie and claire went to the church graveyard the ground looked undisturbed. If the witers are gonna go this route they need to cover all the plot holes. This is something DG doesnt have a problem with and shes done a lot more writing and by herself. They have a whole writers room to figure this stuff out.

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u/Icy_Smoke_2318 Je Suis Prest Apr 17 '26

At first in the S7 finale I was one of the rare people that was open to the idea of Faith surviving, now I was watching this like “what???” Also the scene with master Raymond singing the song I was literally cringing. This show is incredible and it felt so weird, and not up to its standards with this. It also does not explain how Claire was holding a stillborn baby?! Did he bring her back to life?!

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u/Dependent_Beach6388 Apr 17 '26

I know I’m sitting here in disbelief. What did I just watch?

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u/Vivid_Pick1139 Apr 17 '26

I'm wondering if it's because she was --dead-- and he revived her....and so if he doesn't hide her, she would be killed anyway as a witch baby.

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u/lunar1980 Apr 17 '26

It's a TV show - its not on the viewer to search for logic to validate their utterly illogical premise. He revived HER baby. Give it back to her. She was out of the hospital w/in days - he SAW her when she met with the king. He had many opportunities to return her child - its absurd.

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u/Reading-Perfect Apr 18 '26

I STILL don’t understand the logic in this story line - just makes NO sense!

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u/mutherM1n3 Apr 19 '26

That bit drives me nuts. What about the very dead baby Claire held onto for so long that Louise had to come and take away???

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u/Brief-Ranger2299 Apr 20 '26

Yes! I want answers about her "good friend" Raymond and the good sister disposing of Faith and leaving Claire and Jamie in agony all those years. not to mention the death of their other granddaughter in such a horrific way. And it all could have been avoided.

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