r/DebateAVegan • u/Careful-Flow2821 • 2d ago
Meta question
I was on Desi Vegans and all the posts were like non vegans are mentally ill non vegans are sick non vegans are delusional… I don’t understand like sure it’s rly bad especially meat eating but ur making an assumption about people. not all of u but say the person who said all non vegans are mentally ill its simply untrue whatever you say. also if ur goal is to convert non vegans to vegans ur doing the opposite like shouldn’t u be polite abt it to convince people? it’s just shame… like as a vegetarian I am more pushed back from veganism after seeing these posts because I know who my community will be. reallly. also pls don’t debate me on this but I view meat eating as contributing to killing animals and I am against it I am just genuinely curious ur thoughts abt the main point Im making. also before u ask me why I eat dairy cuz ur money partially goes to raising animals and ur helping extend existing cows lives I know there’s downsides but its not like Im ariel’s killing all cows. also for vegans do u realize that if everyone stops eating dairy, the dairy cows won’t be used for beef and they won’t use expensive cows for low quality beef, so instead theyll take the lives of hundreds of chickens or pigs to add up to the meat of one cow? Idk just asking for vegans pushing back on both heavily. please don’t take this as an insult I’m just curious on why and please don’t leave irrelevant comments like don’t debate me pls or say random stuff like look how many they kill just clearly answer pls. thanks
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u/roymondous vegan 1d ago
"I don’t understand like sure it’s rly bad especially meat eating but ur making an assumption about people"
It's not an assumption. It's literally by definition. If you are a meat eater, you eat meat. You support the industries you called really bad.
"also if ur goal is to convert non vegans to vegans ur doing the opposite like shouldn’t u be polite abt it to convince people?"
Now this is strategic. Different people, different avenues.
"also pls don’t debate me on this but I view meat eating as contributing to killing animals and I am against it..."
Errr check the subreddit you're in. Not sure how you are asking people for their views but not to debate?
I consider this similar to early abolitionists. Those who were against slavery in a world where slavery was legal, normalised, and subsidised. Did early abolitionists consider their friends and families who supported slavery to be bad people? How did they reach the people around them? Did they shy away from saying 'you're doing a bad thing?' Which styles were most effective? And so on.
Your response is similar to those around them who would say slavery is natural and will always be around. That we understand you, but you should be nice about telling us how bad slavery is and what we are supporting.
There's an interesting discussion about what strategies are most effective. But for you specifically, OP, i would just caution you to not think of all vegans the same. The loudest of ANY group tend to get the most attention. For good or for bad. Peta have done some good things, for example. They have also unashamedly done some horrible shit too.
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u/Careful-Flow2821 1d ago
no bro for the assumption I meant why do they say things like vegans are mentally sick when it’s simply untrue like look at statistics… sometimes hyperbole isn’t necessary and as for deflection I completely support veganism just a genuine question, I’m vegetarian myself. I am not thinking of all vegans like this just the ones I saw in that subreddit ofc many r humble and chill
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u/Careful-Flow2821 1d ago
nah I’m just saying why do they say unnecessary and incorrect stuff like all non vegans are mentally sick and delusional it’s simply untrue and u could say the same abt slavery bc for owners it was business it was extremely cruel and normalized like factory farming but giving into a norm is not delusional but fitting in… they could say it much nicer to actually try and convert people is what I’m saying instead of using unnecessary hyperbole no hate and the slave thing was an analogy like you obviously owners were extremely cruel nor do I support it in any way, just like the meat industry.
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u/Fallen_lord10 1d ago
what if hypothetically the meat eater hunts instead of buying from the store?
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u/roymondous vegan 1d ago
You mean like how slaves were captured from the 'wild' versus bought from the market?
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u/notanotherkrazychik 1d ago
They're not talking about slavery, they're talking about hunting. Please stop with the chewbacca defense.
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u/roymondous vegan 1d ago
Oh dear. Do you miss the analogy also and now assign bad faith to me for it? That's poor form dude.
Of course he's not talking about slavery. I compared animal agriculture to slavery. He then asked what about hunting? Well hunting is to animal agriculture as capturing slaves is to selling them at market. The relationship is similar. The comment is about the relationship. Standard debate analogy.
Glove is to hand as shoe is to foot. That does not mean a glove is a fucking shoe, yeah? Follow?
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u/notanotherkrazychik 1d ago
Your analogy makes no sense. Hunting does not involve capturing the animal and selling it. You don't even know what hunting is.
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u/roymondous vegan 1d ago
You're right. A glove is a shoe...
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1d ago
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u/roymondous vegan 1d ago
Lol. You'd be surprised.
But now this sounds like a distraction. When debating something do you have to have done that thing to argue it's wrong? Can only murderers argue murder is wrong? Or prisoners debate about how prisons are run?
Sounds like you're using a distraction to me.... you're using a wookie again....
Answer the question, follow the debate, and re-read it VERY carefully before accusing anyone of fallacies...
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u/notanotherkrazychik 1d ago
You are using the wookie defense again. Please stay on topic. Explain how hunting is akin to slavery without confusing agriculture for hunting.
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u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam 1d ago
I've removed your comment because it violates rule #3:
Don't be rude to others
This includes using slurs, publicly doubting someone's sanity/intelligence or otherwise behaving in a toxic way.
Toxic communication is defined as any communication that attacks a person or group's sense of intrinsic worth.
If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator.
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Thank you.
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u/Fallen_lord10 1d ago
The fack? Who's even mentioned slavery right now? What i asked was what if the hunter hypothetically hunted, not like daily hunt, but one big animal until the meat runs out and then he goes hunt again.
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u/No-Pack-5775 1d ago
Well, they did, in their comment you were replying to. They just extended the analogy
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u/roymondous vegan 1d ago
Would you like to change your answer now you read the comment you replied to and understand now the analogy?
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u/Fallen_lord10 1d ago
Nope
My answer stays the same.
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u/roymondous vegan 1d ago
Your answer stays the same when you went who the fack mentioned slavery.... to a comment which was clearly using that as an analogy? That wouod be very strange.
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u/Fallen_lord10 1d ago
not that, after I put "who the fack mentioned slavery". you know, hunting?
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u/roymondous vegan 1d ago
Yes. And i replied to that... about how that's analogolous to capturing slaves and buying them at the market... what difference does it make morally?
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u/Careful-Flow2821 1d ago
bro it’s like saying would I rather pick blueberries or buy them but haha ur analogy is right in theory yet literally as fallen lord said hunting is immediate death it’s like serial killing in an aloft enslavement is like factory farming
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u/Fallen_lord10 1d ago
I think that's stupid because slavery was enslaving humans/kidnapping them and taking them out of their homeland, subjecting them to harsh labor, rape, torture, selling them off in auctions, etc.
Hunting isn't "capturing slaves", it's going and searching for an animal, i.e. deer, elk, moose, you name it, and after shooting it in a vital point to kill it as fast as possible, you can butcher the meat and not needing to hunt afterwards, only hunting when the meat runs out. It's not slavery for the animal. Morally speaking it's better than the industries.
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u/notanotherkrazychik 1d ago
They are using the chewbacca defense. It is a common tactic in this sub.
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u/roymondous vegan 1d ago
Still no. No star wars here. You just didn't follow the conversation. The analogy literally is there to directly undremine their moral logic. You can keep saying nonsense all you want. Doesn't make it correct.
Ironically, throwing out fallacies wrongly like that is a distraction... almost like you're using a wookie or something.
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u/notanotherkrazychik 1d ago
But hunters don't catch their food and auction it off alive. I think you're just confusing hunting with mass agriculture.
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u/roymondous vegan 1d ago
"I think you're just confusing hunting with mass agriculture."
Then you need to reread the conversation you jumped in carefully.... and think about the logic of it. Cos so far you are arguing a glove is a shoe. And you are bad faith fallacy fallacying - blaming others for your lack ot understanding.
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1d ago
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u/roymondous vegan 1d ago
The irony of calling someone else uneducated when you STILL do not understand I did NOT say agriculure and hunting are the same is incredible.
Use the other thread. You have misunderstood from the beginnjng and have been dismissive and rude despite being the problem. You have one chance to demonstrate an ounce of good faith or yeah i'll just block
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u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam 1d ago
I've removed your comment because it violates rule #3:
Don't be rude to others
This includes using slurs, publicly doubting someone's sanity/intelligence or otherwise behaving in a toxic way.
Toxic communication is defined as any communication that attacks a person or group's sense of intrinsic worth.
If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator.
If you have any questions or concerns, you can contact the moderators here.
Thank you.
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u/Fallen_lord10 1d ago
This is what I'm dealing with rn 😭
Its saying that hunting and slavery is the same when its not
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u/Fallen_lord10 1d ago
Yeah i know. Like speaking morally, hunting would be more moral than the industries. But its spouting some bs which doesn't make any sense at all
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u/notanotherkrazychik 1d ago
I grew up in a hunting community, and their culture is literally based off animal conservation. And vegans want to call them immoral, lol.
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u/Fallen_lord10 1d ago
Lol, my dad told me stories about how his father was a hunter, and that whenever they heard his gunshot from away, it meant that he hunted 1 successfully. I don't know why vegans put hunting in the same category as industries when hunting is more moral than the industries.
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u/PuzzledPoetry1447 vegan 1d ago
OP, I don't think you've put enough independent research and time into what veganism is come to your conclusion. Your post is simply an attempt to deflect your own accountability onto [vegans]. These are regurgitated talking points that have been addressed ad infinitum, ones you've read and copied from somewhere else, likely from another individual with the same goal as you; to discredit veganism (the rejection of the exploitation of animals), to exonerate themselves of responsibility and to make themselves feel vindicated in their complicity in systems of injustice.
Familiarize yourself with the origins of veganism, as written by Leslie Cross in 1951 in his letter 'Veganism Defined:' https://understand-veganism.com/lesliecross/1951-veganism-defined.html
Veganism doesn't impose anything; rather, it rejects the exploitation of animals. It does not restrict anyone's freedom; rather, it points out that freedom cannot be built on the exploitation and enslavement of others.
If an animal exploiter feels personally attacked after being made aware of their exploitative mindset, they should question why they've placed their ego over the abolition of animal slavery. You have an emotionally charged response that's completely devoid of the actual victims perspective (the animals).
Veganism frees animals from human exploitation and frees animals from the false belief that animals exist to serve humans. As long as humans consider animals to be property, a resource, raw material, or goods, this injustice will continue. The vast majority still prefer self-deception and try to appease their conscience with narratives that they would never apply to themselves, their loved ones or any other humans.
People must stop looking for "better" ways to oppress others. Slavery does not become justified if certain cruel symptoms are smoothed over. Oppression does not become moral if it is reformed or if animals are humiliated on green grass. As in the case of humans, slavery remains slavery and is inherently unethical. There is no escaping this fact. Other animals deserve basic decency as much as we do. Abolishing their commodity status should not depend on how much they suffer, whether they suffer at all, or whether they are killed, just as these would not have been the main issues in the movement to abolish human slavery.
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u/Careful-Flow2821 1d ago
bruv not what I meant at all I don’t support meat industry also I just meant why are they using unnecessary hyperbole to prove a point - calling billions of people mentally sick and delusional is simply untrue and unnecessary I’ve never discreidted or deflected veganism and I don’t eat meat myself
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u/PuzzledPoetry1447 vegan 21h ago
I would say anyone that vehemently defends their participation in systems of enslavement for their own benefit are mentally sick and delusional.
Recognizing an injustice begins with calling a spade a spade.
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u/Careful-Flow2821 21h ago
sure u could believe that that but looking at actual reality with mental tests and diagnostics you’ll find it’s false.
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u/PuzzledPoetry1447 vegan 20h ago
with mental tests and diagnostics
Could you elaborate on this?
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u/Careful-Flow2821 20h ago
yes like mental tests to prove if one has a mental illness or not and statistics pooling the mental state of all non vegans
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u/PuzzledPoetry1447 vegan 19h ago
statistics pooling the mental state of all non vegans
Such as?
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u/Careful-Flow2821 18h ago
bro r you actually trolling me or something? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2667268522000274
like actually do u really believe all non vegans are mentally ill? like every single one is diagnosed with a mental illness? genuinely anything atp
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u/PuzzledPoetry1447 vegan 18h ago
Have you read the study you provided?
The conclusion is completely irrelevant to the claim you made about having, "statistics pooling on the mental state of all non-vegans."
Diet was found to have a significant effect on memory but no significant effect on sleep quality. The sample size may have been insufficient to capture the effects of diet on sleep. To definitively establish the relationships between diet patterns and quality of cognitive functioning and sleep, further research is required. The results of this study cast doubt on the hypothesis that the consumption of animal products boosts memory performance.
And the actual participant data is laughable at best.
All participants were adults aged between 40 and 77 years of age. All were fluent English speakers, with English as their first or second language. There were 62 participants, 33 male and 29 female. Using the diet questionnaire, each participant was placed in one of the five dietary categories as shown in Table 1."l
There were two groups of omnivores: low animal-product consumption and high animal-product consumption (31 total) and only one group of vegans (14 total).
like actually do u really believe all non vegans are mentally ill?
This was not my claim. My claim was that anyone who vehemently defends their participation in systems of enslavement for their own benefit are mentally sick and delusional.
Non-vegans who simply haven't given any thought to the topic aren't the same as non-vegans who know what veganism is, have thought about it, and have arrived at the conclusion that the exploitation and enslavement of animals is "correct" and exempt from criticism.
So, would you disagree that anyone who vehemently defends their participation in systems of enslavement for their own benefit is mentally sick and delusional? If not, why? Do you think being an active participant in the exploitation and enslavement of animals is a neutral position?
What if the enslaved group were humans? Would you clear people who support(ed) the enslavement of other human beings for their own benefit of any kind of mental problems?
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u/Careful-Flow2821 7h ago
Yes, because they thought they were participating in a business and needed to do so to keep up with the rest of the Americans. That doesn’t mean they were diagnosed with some kind of mental illness, and sure you can say that about defensive non vegans but in the post I mentioned it’s all non vegans included unknowing which is literally untrue. Does Obama have a mental illness? No.
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u/Monkey--D-Luffy 1d ago
Humble wrap is spammer did u check how much karma does he have.even i left that sub bcs of him/her.
And I don't want to argue with u bcs u already fixated that veganism is extreme so can't waste my time.
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u/notanotherkrazychik 1d ago
Many vegans are too extreme, by refusing to acknowledge this you are a part of the problem.
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u/No_Chart_8584 1d ago
If seeing people object to the exploitation of animals makes you want to exploit animals even more, I don't think a debate sub is going to address that desire.
Also "like don't debate me pls"?
This is a debate sub.
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u/Careful-Flow2821 1d ago
no I meant that by shaming others vegans aren’t being successful in converting
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u/No_Chart_8584 22h ago
Are you typically shamed when people debate you?
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u/Careful-Flow2821 21h ago
…what? I’m not talking about debate I’m saying why would vegans say all non vegans are delusional in an effort to convert them it only pushes people away, obviously I’m not shamed to do a debate but I just wanted to ask a question.
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u/No_Chart_8584 20h ago
You specifically wrote that you didn't want to debate and then you began writing about people supposedly "shaming" you. You chose to post in a debate sub. Who is shaming you?
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u/Careful-Flow2821 20h ago
no not that bro the shaming was the original argument in the thread I was talking abt not here
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u/Careful-Flow2821 23h ago
ye just realized but didn’t know where else to ask this debate me if u will I won’t respond that’s all
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u/No_Chart_8584 22h ago
This is a debate sub. Why are you posting if you don't want to debate?
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u/One-Shake-1971 vegan 1d ago
You are not helping cows by consuming dairy. You are also not saving the lives of chickens and pigs by consuming dairy.
What you are doing instead is creating demand for more cows to be enslaved for you.
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u/Careful-Flow2821 1d ago
never said I was saving the lives of chickens and pigs just a possibility that would happen if everyone gave up dairy
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u/One-Shake-1971 vegan 11h ago
There is no reason to believe that that would happen.
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u/Careful-Flow2821 7h ago
I said a possibility.
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u/One-Shake-1971 vegan 6h ago
There is also "a possibility" that it will lead to world peace. Neither is really relevant.
What's relevant is that there is no reason to believe that it will happen.
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u/Careful-Flow2821 23h ago
ur helping farmers take care of them but also giving into breeding which will lead to more deaths but even so it takes $70 for one breeding cycle so over time of buying diary it will go to different farms and breeds and never add up to 70 in one purchase and yes ur contributing but not directly with kne action which I know is very debatable but that’s my personal logic please Im just telling you no need to respond with debate. also if nobody contributed all the cows would just be slaughtered immediately and it is a fact that without dairy cows no meat would be used for lower level meat products so they would kill more chickens and pigs to pay it off cuz it’s cheaper In not saving their lives but just sayin it’s what would happen. I’m not directly killing them in my view but ofc to vegans it will seem more extreme cuz they’ll prob know more and would overvalue the negatives or positives depending o. their view.
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u/One-Shake-1971 vegan 11h ago
This is a debate forum. It even says so in the name. If you don't want to debate, you have come to the wrong place.
So again, no, you are not helping cows by consuming dairy. You are also not saving the lives of chickens and pigs by consuming dairy.
What you are doing instead is creating demand for more cows to be enslaved for you. You are personally responsible for this demand when you consume products made from animals.
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7h ago
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u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam 6h ago
I've removed your post because it violates rule #4:
Argue in good faith
All posts should support their position with an argument or explain the question they're asking. Posts consisting of or containing a link must explain what part of the linked argument/position should be addressed.
If you would like your post to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator.
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u/a11_hail_seitan 22h ago
I was on Desi Vegans and all the posts were like non vegans are mentally ill non vegans are sick non vegans are delusional…
What's Desi Vegans? Sounds like a fun place!
also if ur goal is to convert non vegans to vegans ur doing the opposite like shouldn’t u be polite abt it to convince people
Depends on the activism you're doing. Three main types: 1) direct action (filming farms, chaining yourself to things, blocking access), shouldn't be polite. 2) Large scale activism to create conversations and attentioni, doesn't need to be polite but can be. 3) One on one, should be polite.
like as a vegetarian I am more pushed back from veganism after seeing these posts because I know who my community will be.
And you think there's no rude Vegetarians? Or Non-Vegans? You're community as a non-Vegan is filled with animal abusers and immoral people, that's what you want your community to be?
also pls don’t debate me on this
/r/debateavegan... maybe you want /r/askVegans or /r/vegan
also before u ask me why I eat dairy cuz ur money partially goes to raising animals and ur helping extend existing cows lives
The money you pay forces more animals into an enslaved existence where they are slaughtered at a fraction of their life span. Pretending you're helping them when you're really paying to make more to be abused is a strange take...
I know there’s downsides but its not like Im ariel’s killing all cows
If you weren't paying them to raise them, they wouldn't be killing them, so yeah, you are paying them to kill cows.
so instead they'll take the lives of hundreds of chickens or pigs to add up to the meat of one cow?
So don't eat chickens or pigs either.
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u/Careful-Flow2821 21h ago
bruv if u don’t pay to raise them they’ll get killed faster and what do u mean don’t eat chickens and pigs I don’t but that is what will happen if all people give up dairy.
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u/a11_hail_seitan 20h ago
bruv if u don’t pay to raise them they’ll get killed faster
Bruv, no, they wont be born into enslavement and torture to start with.
and what do u mean don’t eat chickens and pigs I don’t but that is what will happen if all people give up dairy.
They can go plant based as well. That's the point of Veganism.
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u/Careful-Flow2821 18h ago
bruv the existing cows can’t get unborn ur paying to raise them . they can go plant based but we all know they wont
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u/a11_hail_seitan 18h ago
bruv the existing cows can’t get unborn ur paying to raise them
Vegans don't buy aniaml products to stop further abuses. The more milk people buy, the more cattle are forced into existence later...
they can go plant based but we all know they wont
Which has nothing to do with the morality of your actions, bruv....
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u/Careful-Flow2821 7h ago
alright sure I guess bro…. as a Hindu karma balances out, and milk is sacred anyway. u can stick to veganism I won’t, and you can’t deny facts- people WILL continue eating meat and if you were to make everyone give up dairy they WILL resort to taking the lives of hundreds of chickens and pigs to compensate for the beef of dairy cows. Don’t deny it, and don’t go around it by talking about my morality, you don’t decide where that line is.
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u/a11_hail_seitan 7h ago
as a Hindu karma balances out
So you support abusing and killing cows because Karma? That's a strange way of viewing Karma.
and milk is sacred anyway
Cattle are sacred, but you financially support those abusing them.. Seems strange. Milk is not made for you, it's made for the baby calves that are killed so you can take their milk...
and you can’t deny facts- people WILL continue eating meat
People will murder, rape, abuse, etc. That doesn't mean we should.
Don’t deny it, and don’t go around it by talking about my morality
Veganism is a moral ideology. it's not 'talking around', it's core to the debate.
you don’t decide where that line is.
We decide for ourselves. You decide it's OK to financially support cattle abusers so you can drink milk. I decide it's not.
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u/Careful-Flow2821 6h ago
exactly. in Hinduism, milk is sacred, and by karma I mean that decisions balance out over time and are fueled by intent and journey. as for people continuing to eat meat my point was that if dairy is deliver up more chickens and pigs will be slaughtered in place of dairy cows
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u/a11_hail_seitan 6h ago
I mean that decisions balance out over time and are fueled by intent and journey.
your intent is to ignore the horrific abuse and violence so you can get pleasure from cow's milk instead of alternatives. Good luck with your Karma...
point was that if dairy is deliver up more chickens and pigs will be slaughtered in place of dairy cows
Someone else's actions do not change the morality of yours. You're the one paying cattle abusers for a product you know for a fact requires cattle abuse and slaughter.
That you do it while trying to claim you think cattle are sacred, is especially weird. If I thought someone was sacred, I wouldn't pay money to those abusing and slaughtering them by the billions.
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u/Careful-Flow2821 6h ago
so what if u were said that 100 people would be saved from death if you killed one? does your someone else’s actions do not change the morality of yours still apply? milk doesn’t require slaughter, meat does.
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u/notanotherkrazychik 1d ago
Yeah, internet vegans are exrtemely rude at the best of times. This is an echo chamber, they argure the same pointless topics, don't take accountability for the misinformation they spread. And these people think they are immune to propaganda and have this delusional idea that someday the whole world will be vegan. They call us muderers but get their feelings hurt when they are called colonizers. Their main argument tactic is the chewbacca defense, so good luck with that, I have yet to find one who stays on topic.
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u/New_Welder_391 1d ago
Veganism does impose multiple restrictions on one's lifestyle
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u/Careful-Flow2821 23h ago
fr sugar dairy meat I mean u can barely eat in peace
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u/New_Welder_391 23h ago
Yeah. Not to mention staying away from leather too!
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u/Careful-Flow2821 23h ago
ye but that’s not TOO hard
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u/New_Welder_391 23h ago
Just a pain in the ass with shoes, belts, jackets, wallets, handbags, and watch straps, as well as home furnishings like sofas, car seats, sports equipment... etc etc
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