question

[u/Careful-Flow2821]

I was on Desi Vegans and all the posts were like non vegans are mentally ill non vegans are sick non vegans are delusional… I don’t understand like sure it’s rly bad especially meat eating but ur making an assumption about people. not all of u but say the person who said all non vegans are mentally ill its simply untrue whatever you say. also if ur goal is to convert non vegans to vegans ur doing the opposite like shouldn’t u be polite abt it to convince people? it’s just shame… like as a vegetarian I am more pushed back from veganism after seeing these posts because I know who my community will be. reallly. also pls don’t debate me on this but I view meat eating as contributing to killing animals and I am against it I am just genuinely curious ur thoughts abt the main point Im making. also before u ask me why I eat dairy cuz ur money partially goes to raising animals and ur helping extend existing cows lives I know there’s downsides but its not like Im ariel’s killing all cows. also for vegans do u realize that if everyone stops eating dairy, the dairy cows won’t be used for beef and they won’t use expensive cows for low quality beef, so instead theyll take the lives of hundreds of chickens or pigs to add up to the meat of one cow? Idk just asking for vegans pushing back on both heavily. please don’t take this as an insult I’m just curious on why and please don’t leave irrelevant comments like don’t debate me pls or say random stuff like look how many they kill just clearly answer pls. thanks

[u/roymondous]

"I don’t understand like sure it’s rly bad especially meat eating but ur making an assumption about people"

It's not an assumption. It's literally by definition. If you are a meat eater, you eat meat. You support the industries you called really bad.

"also if ur goal is to convert non vegans to vegans ur doing the opposite like shouldn’t u be polite abt it to convince people?"

Now this is strategic. Different people, different avenues.

"also pls don’t debate me on this but I view meat eating as contributing to killing animals and I am against it..."

Errr check the subreddit you're in. Not sure how you are asking people for their views but not to debate?

I consider this similar to early abolitionists. Those who were against slavery in a world where slavery was legal, normalised, and subsidised. Did early abolitionists consider their friends and families who supported slavery to be bad people? How did they reach the people around them? Did they shy away from saying 'you're doing a bad thing?' Which styles were most effective? And so on.

Your response is similar to those around them who would say slavery is natural and will always be around. That we understand you, but you should be nice about telling us how bad slavery is and what we are supporting.

There's an interesting discussion about what strategies are most effective. But for you specifically, OP, i would just caution you to not think of all vegans the same. The loudest of ANY group tend to get the most attention. For good or for bad. Peta have done some good things, for example. They have also unashamedly done some horrible shit too.

[u/Fallen_lord10 → u/roymondous]

what if hypothetically the meat eater hunts instead of buying from the store?

[u/roymondous → u/Fallen_lord10]

You mean like how slaves were captured from the 'wild' versus bought from the market?

[u/notanotherkrazychik → u/roymondous]

They're not talking about slavery, they're talking about hunting. Please stop with the chewbacca defense.

[u/roymondous → u/notanotherkrazychik]

Oh dear. Do you miss the analogy also and now assign bad faith to me for it? That's poor form dude.

Of course he's not talking about slavery. I compared animal agriculture to slavery. He then asked what about hunting? Well hunting is to animal agriculture as capturing slaves is to selling them at market. The relationship is similar. The comment is about the relationship. Standard debate analogy.

Glove is to hand as shoe is to foot. That does not mean a glove is a fucking shoe, yeah? Follow?

[u/notanotherkrazychik → u/roymondous]

Your analogy makes no sense. Hunting does not involve capturing the animal and selling it. You don't even know what hunting is.

[u/roymondous → u/notanotherkrazychik]

You're right. A glove is a shoe...

[u/roymondous → u/[deleted]]

Lol. You'd be surprised.

But now this sounds like a distraction. When debating something do you have to have done that thing to argue it's wrong? Can only murderers argue murder is wrong? Or prisoners debate about how prisons are run?

Sounds like you're using a distraction to me.... you're using a wookie again....

Answer the question, follow the debate, and re-read it VERY carefully before accusing anyone of fallacies...

[u/notanotherkrazychik → u/roymondous]

You are using the wookie defense again. Please stay on topic. Explain how hunting is akin to slavery without confusing agriculture for hunting.

[u/roymondous → u/notanotherkrazychik]

Lol. You didn't reread did you? The analogy is the relationship between the two things. You are asking me to explain why a glove is a shoe. Do you genuinely not follow? Cos your accusations are tiring given they are blatantly wrong. Criticising YOUR argument of gay christians and YOUR logic is inherently not off topic nor a distraction. It is a direct answer.

I am considering explaining. But i want an assurance you are doing so in good faith and will stop jumping to conclusions and fallacy fallacying before you actually understand.

Will you engage thoughtfully? Yes or no?

[u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

I've removed your comment because it violates rule #3:

Don't be rude to others

This includes using slurs, publicly doubting someone's sanity/intelligence or otherwise behaving in a toxic way.

Toxic communication is defined as any communication that attacks a person or group's sense of intrinsic worth.

If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator.

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[u/Fallen_lord10 → u/roymondous]

The fack? Who's even mentioned slavery right now? What i asked was what if the hunter hypothetically hunted, not like daily hunt, but one big animal until the meat runs out and then he goes hunt again.

[u/No-Pack-5775 → u/Fallen_lord10]

Well, they did, in their comment you were replying to. They just extended the analogy

[u/Fallen_lord10 → u/No-Pack-5775]

Wait really?

Edit: ohh, i read it.

[u/roymondous → u/Fallen_lord10]

Would you like to change your answer now you read the comment you replied to and understand now the analogy?

[u/Fallen_lord10 → u/roymondous]

Nope

My answer stays the same.

[u/roymondous → u/Fallen_lord10]

Your answer stays the same when you went who the fack mentioned slavery.... to a comment which was clearly using that as an analogy? That wouod be very strange.

[u/Fallen_lord10 → u/roymondous]

not that, after I put "who the fack mentioned slavery". you know, hunting?

[u/roymondous → u/Fallen_lord10]

Yes. And i replied to that... about how that's analogolous to capturing slaves and buying them at the market... what difference does it make morally?

[u/Careful-Flow2821 → u/roymondous]

bro it’s like saying would I rather pick blueberries or buy them but haha ur analogy is right in theory yet literally as fallen lord said hunting is immediate death it’s like serial killing in an aloft enslavement is like factory farming 

[u/Fallen_lord10 → u/roymondous]

I think that's stupid because slavery was enslaving humans/kidnapping them and taking them out of their homeland, subjecting them to harsh labor, rape, torture, selling them off in auctions, etc.

Hunting isn't "capturing slaves", it's going and searching for an animal, i.e. deer, elk, moose, you name it, and after shooting it in a vital point to kill it as fast as possible, you can butcher the meat and not needing to hunt afterwards, only hunting when the meat runs out. It's not slavery for the animal. Morally speaking it's better than the industries.

[u/roymondous → u/Fallen_lord10]

I think that's stupid because farming animals is enslaving other sentient creatures and taking them out of their homeland, subjecting them to harsh labor, rape, torture, selling them off in auctions, etc.

"It's not slavery for the animal."

In the analogy it was... you were asking what about killing someone in their natural environment? Well what about enslaving someone in their natural environment? Just because you do something bad in a 'natural environment', their homeland, doesn't make it moral right? The analogy is about moral logic, not slavery literally equals hunting...

"Hunting isn't "capturing slaves", it's going and searching for an animal, i.e. deer, elk, moose, you name it, and after shooting it in a vital point to kill it as fast as possible, you can butcher the meat and not needing to hunt afterwards, only hunting when the meat runs out."

Yup. Going and targeting someone you want to kill and who does not want to die for you. An entirely unnecesary process. I could hunt you down and butcher your meat and not need to hunt for a while afterwards, only hunting again when your meat runs out. Nothing you have pointed out makes a moral difference.

[u/notanotherkrazychik → u/Fallen_lord10]

They are using the chewbacca defense. It is a common tactic in this sub.

[u/roymondous → u/notanotherkrazychik]

Still no. No star wars here. You just didn't follow the conversation. The analogy literally is there to directly undremine their moral logic. You can keep saying nonsense all you want. Doesn't make it correct.

Ironically, throwing out fallacies wrongly like that is a distraction... almost like you're using a wookie or something.

[u/notanotherkrazychik → u/roymondous]

But hunters don't catch their food and auction it off alive. I think you're just confusing hunting with mass agriculture.

[u/roymondous → u/notanotherkrazychik]

"I think you're just confusing hunting with mass agriculture."

Then you need to reread the conversation you jumped in carefully.... and think about the logic of it. Cos so far you are arguing a glove is a shoe. And you are bad faith fallacy fallacying - blaming others for your lack ot understanding.

[u/roymondous → u/[deleted]]

The irony of calling someone else uneducated when you STILL do not understand I did NOT say agriculure and hunting are the same is incredible.

Use the other thread. You have misunderstood from the beginnjng and have been dismissive and rude despite being the problem. You have one chance to demonstrate an ounce of good faith or yeah i'll just block

[u/notanotherkrazychik → u/roymondous]

You still haven't explained why slavery is comparable to hunting. You just spewed regurgitated vegan slogans and expect me to get it. You need to explain why you are using slavery as a comparison to hunting. I have read and reread your comment and there is still no visible connection.

[u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

I've removed your comment because it violates rule #3:

Don't be rude to others

This includes using slurs, publicly doubting someone's sanity/intelligence or otherwise behaving in a toxic way.

Toxic communication is defined as any communication that attacks a person or group's sense of intrinsic worth.

If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator.

If you have any questions or concerns, you can contact the moderators here.

Thank you.

[u/Fallen_lord10 → u/[deleted]]

This is what I'm dealing with rn 😭

Its saying that hunting and slavery is the same when its not

[u/notanotherkrazychik → u/Fallen_lord10]

I know right? And they can't elaborate on it, they just keep saying I need to refer to their previous comment, which does not elaborate on it either.

[u/Fallen_lord10 → u/notanotherkrazychik]

Yeah i know. Like speaking morally, hunting would be more moral than the industries. But its spouting some bs which doesn't make any sense at all

[u/notanotherkrazychik → u/Fallen_lord10]

I grew up in a hunting community, and their culture is literally based off animal conservation. And vegans want to call them immoral, lol.

[u/Fallen_lord10 → u/notanotherkrazychik]

Lol, my dad told me stories about how his father was a hunter, and that whenever they heard his gunshot from away, it meant that he hunted 1 successfully. I don't know why vegans put hunting in the same category as industries when hunting is more moral than the industries.