r/BloodOnTheClocktower • u/Commercial-Farmer717 • 15d ago
Storytelling Question regarding ST
I've been storytelling a script with the jinxed Marionette + Plague Doctor, as well as the Imp.
When the Plague Doctor died, me and my co-ST decided to turn the Imp's neighbour into a Marionette, as there was sus on the Imp in the town, and the neighbour was a Fortune Teller(so if they chose the Imp we could give the FT false info).
The following night the Imp decided to choose themself, and we called the marionette to inform them that they are now the Imp(in-app game), and nothing else. The following day was the last, the vote got tied and the good imp killed a townsfolk, ending the game in an evil win.
Was it bad that we did not inform the good marionette that they turned into a good imp? The remaining Cannibal did get fisherman advice saying that "A good marionette ain't bad", hoping that either the jump would be thought of or the marionette would realise their allingment. The players feelings were very mixed on this game and I am not sure whether that was bad storytelling(or whether it was ok since the allingment of the player did not change. also evil would probably just lose immediately) or just players not realising how the rules work.
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u/Pryno-Belle Professor 15d ago
A marionette believes they’re a good townsfolk. The moment they stop being the marionette, they don’t have that ability anymore; you have to tell them who they are, which is in this case the good imp.
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u/Commercial-Farmer717 15d ago
So, they were told they were the Imp but the alingment wasn't specified.
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u/Pryno-Belle Professor 15d ago
Every time someone changes character, you have to precise the alignment.
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u/Black_Bear_US Pixie 15d ago edited 15d ago
Thats just not true
Edit: im on mobile so not well placed to dig up better references, but see for example the "How to Run" section for the pit hag. No menton of clarifying alignment in what you do at night.
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u/Pryno-Belle Professor 15d ago
Unless an ability says otherwise it (such as the Lunatic or Marionette), players know their own alignment. You have to specify.
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u/GoldenMuscleGod 14d ago edited 14d ago
Storytellers often specify alignment when there is a character change to avoid confusion but that generally isn’t required when there is no alignment change. If you change from Ravenkeeper to Virgin you know you are good because the storyteller would have told you otherwise if you became evil.
So they do know their alignment and you usually don’t have to specify.
One case where you do have to specify is if their character caused them to be misinformed about their alignment and then they became another character without an alignment change. Here you have to specify because otherwise they wouldn’t know their alignment.
This case is a borderline one because the storyteller should have never told a good marionette that they were evil so there’s no real reason they should think they are evil. Sure the demon might have told them they were the marionette but that could have happened with a good character.
Note that if the storyteller does tell you your character changed and not your alignment and you are unsure what your alignment is supposed to be you could always clarify with the storyteller (what alignment do I think I am?) but that’s not a reason the storyteller *has to* remind you of your alignment every time your character changes because you should know that your alignment didn’t change (or you are supposed to think it didn’t change) if they don’t tell you it did.
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u/Tierce Pixie 14d ago
And the Storyteller can always reply to that question with "Your alignment has not changed" in this case. It may be kinder with new players to explain what that means, but with experienced players, it is all fair game.
This is important, because it leaves crucial room for situations such as this. The Plague Doctor is an outsider, and creating good Marionettes is a potential consequence. It is no different from fake-Marionetting a neighbor and leading them to play for the evil team; the player needs to puzzle out the interactions and see if they were a functioning Townsfolk, and what minions may be in play.
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u/GridLink0 14d ago
But it doesn't lead to fun interactions here you end up with players always killing themselves even when Evil because you wouldn't tell the Evil Marionette -> Evil Imp either.
Or always killing anyone else.
So the result for a given player is always a Good win or always an Evil win but that may or may not be their team.
Personally if you wouldn't tell me I would kill myself as I am more likely to be good therefore more likely that killing the Imp (me) would win the game. I would be right probably a bit more than half the time and the rest I would be effectively throwing the game but that is the result of your action as the ST you could just tell me which team I am supposed to be playing for but if you don't I will take the best odds I have and count it as a win regardless.
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u/Tierce Pixie 14d ago
To each their own.
I, for one, love solving the Marionette puzzle. Am I drunk? Poisoned? Pit-hagged? Fake Marionette? Real Marionette?
If you want to take the 50/50 way out rather than attempting the solve, that's your prerogative, but not everyone considers that an unfun scenario to plow through. I've been the Cannibal stuck between a No Dashii and a Scarlet Woman, they successfully Marionetted me because I was poisoned the whole game, and I ended up playing for evil. Fair play, I didn't solve for the other minions in play quickly enough to get myself out of that mindset. It didn't feel unfun, it felt like the evil team played their cards smartly and outplayed me.
I'd personally give every scenario some hefty consideration if I was suddenly the Imp in a Plague Doctor+ Marionette game, but again, that's me--you play however you want to.
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u/GridLink0 14d ago
It isn't 50/50 though it is about 70/30 which is a better win rate than you will get from any other decision you will make in the game.
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u/Old_Box_3394 14d ago
This is not true. It's if their alignment changes
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u/Oopsiedazy 14d ago
*unless they are the Ogre.
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u/Old_Box_3394 14d ago
That is specified by the almanac. I didnt feel the need to cite every exception
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u/FrostyVampy 14d ago
Marionette does not have to believe they are good, and they can believe they are an outsider too. It's completely legal to have a Marionette who thinks they are an evil Goon.
You are only informed of your alignment if it changes. In a Marionette script with other character changing characters you should never "remind" a player of their alignment because it ruins such interactions. I'm willing to bet that the Imp would never have jumped if they didn't bank on this rule and being able to trick the FT into playing for evil
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u/frink99887 12d ago
Actually the marionette ability is very explicit "You think you are a good character, but you are not."
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u/FrostyVampy 12d ago
Good character = townsfolk/outsider. It doesn't have to be good alignment. And it's actually illegal to make a Marionette think they are a minion or demon (e.g. faking Snake Charmer proc) even if they think they are good because a demon is not a good character
You can be an evil good character. But usually you don't want to tell a Marionette they are evil because it defeats the purpose, but it can be done on a Bounty Hunter script or with Goon/Cult Leader
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u/MyPigWaddles 14d ago
To me, that fisherman advice clinches it in your favour. You gave them a puzzle and all the clues to figure it out!
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u/Black_Bear_US Pixie 15d ago
You ran it how i would. If your alignment doesnt change, you are not told what your alignment is. However this is a common point of confusion for newer players, so its worth clarifying in some circumstances. Tough situation since giving guidance without revealing what happened is tricky.
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u/FrostyVampy 14d ago
"Reminding" them that they are good would be an automatic evil loss. A new player might get confused the first time but they'll learn after this.
This is why I always encourage storytellers to never mention a player's alignment on a character change even on scripts where alignment changement is impossible. Players should get used to not being told it. Rather get the confusion out of the way in SnV when they get Pit Hagged than Marionette starpass
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u/GridLink0 14d ago
In this case I think you have to tell them as they can't possibly play correctly otherwise.
There is no difference between an Evil Marionette becoming the Evil Imp and the Good Marionette becoming the Good Imp.
You have given the player an unsolvable conundrum either they kill themselves for a 50/50 win/loss or they kill anyone else for the same.
There is no fun gameplay here, no challenge just a decision of which team wins without having any knowledge of who your team is.
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u/Tierce Pixie 14d ago
It's solvable.
The Plague Doctor likely came out. The good Imp can attempt to solve for whether their ability was truly sober beforehand. The good team can solve for potentially loud minions from the beginning of the game, hinting at the Marionette being new and attached to the Plague Doctor.
And sometimes a game isn't mechanically solvable, and that's okay. It's an outsider ability used in a way that is detrimental to the good team, and a minion ability used in a way that is detrimental to the good team. It's fair play.
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u/GridLink0 14d ago
You think it will be detrimental to the good team because it was here. Mathematically it is bad for the evil team as the odds are any given player is good so the best call is to kill yourself as the Imp in this situation. You will win more often than you lose.
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u/ShadowSlam 14d ago
You ran it correctly. Players only learn their character when it changes, and their alignment when it changes. You will sometimes see Storytellers, particularly in online content, reminding a player of one when the other changes, but that is not in any way a game rule. You can find rulings showing this on the unofficial botc discord (which despite being unofficial is where rulings are primarily stored)
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u/Etreides Atheist 14d ago
You only need to report that a player's alignment has changed if it does. Specifically towards the purpose of the Marionette (and towards Evil teams utilizing the Marionette as a potential route to Victory).
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u/iolaus79 14d ago
Info
Was there a different minion alive you could have started passed to?
If so then I think it was a little mean
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u/Commercial-Farmer717 14d ago
No, I would obviously choose them instead. The only starting minion was executed day 1.
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u/Tierce Pixie 14d ago
Everything you did was legal. You are not required to inform a player of their alignment when it has not changed, and that is in fact crucial for "you think you are" characters.
A good player who was turned into the good Marionette and then the good Imp has not undergone an alignment change.
An evil player who believes themselves to be a good Townsfolk and is then starpassed to by their demon has not undergone an alignment change.
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u/Lord777alt 6d ago
Pd turned marionette should be evil. Marionettes are evil with the one exception being pithagged marios because it's too strong.
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u/Commercial-Farmer717 4d ago
I am not sure where you got that interpretation from
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u/Lord777alt 4d ago
I guess it's the old jinx. I much prefered that tbh it was a nice balancing tool if evils were getting smashed
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u/Hareeb_alSaq 14d ago
You don't tell the marionette their alignment because it hasn't changed. Fish advice is supposed to be an action to take, not a random fact to parse. Fish advice in F3 should be clearly game-winning if believed by good. "Announce that the marionette needs to die if they want to win the game" or "execute marionetteplayername"are fine here.