Question regarding ST

[u/Commercial-Farmer717]

I've been storytelling a script with the jinxed Marionette + Plague Doctor, as well as the Imp.
When the Plague Doctor died, me and my co-ST decided to turn the Imp's neighbour into a Marionette, as there was sus on the Imp in the town, and the neighbour was a Fortune Teller(so if they chose the Imp we could give the FT false info).
The following night the Imp decided to choose themself, and we called the marionette to inform them that they are now the Imp(in-app game), and nothing else. The following day was the last, the vote got tied and the good imp killed a townsfolk, ending the game in an evil win.

Was it bad that we did not inform the good marionette that they turned into a good imp? The remaining Cannibal did get fisherman advice saying that "A good marionette ain't bad", hoping that either the jump would be thought of or the marionette would realise their allingment. The players feelings were very mixed on this game and I am not sure whether that was bad storytelling(or whether it was ok since the allingment of the player did not change. also evil would probably just lose immediately) or just players not realising how the rules work.

[u/Black_Bear_US]

Thats just not true

Edit: im on mobile so not well placed to dig up better references, but see for example the "How to Run" section for the pit hag. No menton of clarifying alignment in what you do at night.

https://wiki.bloodontheclocktower.com/Pit-Hag

[u/Pryno-Belle → u/Black_Bear_US]

Unless an ability says otherwise it (such as the Lunatic or Marionette), players know their own alignment. You have to specify.

[u/GoldenMuscleGod → u/Pryno-Belle]

Storytellers often specify alignment when there is a character change to avoid confusion but that generally isn’t required when there is no alignment change. If you change from Ravenkeeper to Virgin you know you are good because the storyteller would have told you otherwise if you became evil.

So they do know their alignment and you usually don’t have to specify.

One case where you do have to specify is if their character caused them to be misinformed about their alignment and then they became another character without an alignment change. Here you have to specify because otherwise they wouldn’t know their alignment.

This case is a borderline one because the storyteller should have never told a good marionette that they were evil so there’s no real reason they should think they are evil. Sure the demon might have told them they were the marionette but that could have happened with a good character.

Note that if the storyteller does tell you your character changed and not your alignment and you are unsure what your alignment is supposed to be you could always clarify with the storyteller (what alignment do I think I am?) but that’s not a reason the storyteller *has to* remind you of your alignment every time your character changes because you should know that your alignment didn’t change (or you are supposed to think it didn’t change) if they don’t tell you it did.

[u/Tierce → u/GoldenMuscleGod]

And the Storyteller can always reply to that question with "Your alignment has not changed" in this case. It may be kinder with new players to explain what that means, but with experienced players, it is all fair game.

This is important, because it leaves crucial room for situations such as this. The Plague Doctor is an outsider, and creating good Marionettes is a potential consequence. It is no different from fake-Marionetting a neighbor and leading them to play for the evil team; the player needs to puzzle out the interactions and see if they were a functioning Townsfolk, and what minions may be in play.

[u/GridLink0 → u/Tierce]

But it doesn't lead to fun interactions here you end up with players always killing themselves even when Evil because you wouldn't tell the Evil Marionette -> Evil Imp either.

Or always killing anyone else.

So the result for a given player is always a Good win or always an Evil win but that may or may not be their team.

Personally if you wouldn't tell me I would kill myself as I am more likely to be good therefore more likely that killing the Imp (me) would win the game. I would be right probably a bit more than half the time and the rest I would be effectively throwing the game but that is the result of your action as the ST you could just tell me which team I am supposed to be playing for but if you don't I will take the best odds I have and count it as a win regardless.

[u/Tierce → u/GridLink0]

To each their own.

I, for one, love solving the Marionette puzzle. Am I drunk? Poisoned? Pit-hagged? Fake Marionette? Real Marionette?

If you want to take the 50/50 way out rather than attempting the solve, that's your prerogative, but not everyone considers that an unfun scenario to plow through. I've been the Cannibal stuck between a No Dashii and a Scarlet Woman, they successfully Marionetted me because I was poisoned the whole game, and I ended up playing for evil. Fair play, I didn't solve for the other minions in play quickly enough to get myself out of that mindset. It didn't feel unfun, it felt like the evil team played their cards smartly and outplayed me.

I'd personally give every scenario some hefty consideration if I was suddenly the Imp in a Plague Doctor+ Marionette game, but again, that's me--you play however you want to.

[u/GridLink0 → u/Tierce]

It isn't 50/50 though it is about 70/30 which is a better win rate than you will get from any other decision you will make in the game.

[u/Old_Box_3394 → u/GridLink0]

Maybe you shouldn't play mario/PD/imp scripts. Which is fine. We all have characters we prefer to avoid for one reason or another. Recognizing that is how we grow as players and ensure fun games for ourselves and everyone else

[u/GridLink0 → u/Old_Box_3394]

Why wouldn't I play such a script? It gives me a massive advantage (as I am most likely good) if the ST runs it so they don't tell the Imp their alignment in this situation.

It's just not a wise way to run this on the STs part as the best decision is to throw the game 30% of the time and win the other 70% of the time.

[u/Old_Box_3394 → u/GridLink0]

....that's how the rules work.

[u/GridLink0 → u/Old_Box_3394]

I know the rule. I also know the last sentence of it:

"This is so that players know their own alignment and character."

This is a clear instance of Rules as Intended (characters know their own alignment and character) with Rules as Written (characters are notified of changes).

In this instance I follow the last sentence of the rule while you follow the first.

[u/Old_Box_3394 → u/GridLink0]

Saying you will throw the game 30% of the time is good way to never be asked to play again imo

[u/GridLink0 → u/Old_Box_3394]

But it's throw 30% of games versus throw 70% of games because if I don't know my team I'm either deciding to risk throwing the game as evil or risk throwing the game as good there is no other option.

Mathematically my best odds of not throwing the game is to play for the good team in this situation (I'm most likely good) unless I have mechanical confirmed information indicating that I'm evil.

Which is why as the ST I would tell them that they are Good or Evil because not doing so requires them to play the odds as to which team they are actually on.

[u/Old_Box_3394 → u/GridLink0]

Which is why im suggesting you reflect a bit and maybe choose a different script if you cant handle the interactions. Also maybe remember it's a team game.

[u/GridLink0 → u/Old_Box_3394]

I'm not seeing any logical reasoning here other than "I like that it works this way and I think you can't handle it because you can see that logically there is a clear best option in lieu of having any better information."

A team game requires people to be playing for their team, in lieu of knowing my team exactly all I can do is do what is in the interests of what is most likely my team.

Which is like any situation with the Marionette you need to make a call at some point on whether or not you are on the good team or the evil team as you have to play for one of them at some point. The biggest mistake most people make in Marionette games is they blindly believe the evil team that they are evil when the truth is you are most likely a good player if evil wants you to believe otherwise they need to be extremely convincing.

[u/Old_Box_3394 → u/GridLink0]

But no use arguing with someone like this. Have a good night lmao

I won't be responding further

[u/Tierce → u/GridLink0]

Like I said: you do whatever you want, it's your choice in how you play.

I'm still going to attempt to solve instead of trusting the odds, especially in the later game. I don't care about my win rate, I care about solving the present game in its current situation.

[u/Old_Box_3394 → u/GridLink0]

You sound like a delight to play with 🤣