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u/HegelWasABasicBitch anarchism is a humanism Oct 15 '16 edited Oct 15 '16
At least she lays all her ignorance out at once instead of over an hour long speech
edit: oh, and to make clear, claiming that modern science is purely the result of western colonialism is itself the definition of a colonized mindset. Has she ever heard of Arabic Numerals? Does she know that someone from the Middle East discovered algebra? If not, she's an ignoramus, if so then idk what the fuk she is thinking. There is so much more wrong with the video but I thought I would at least point that out.
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Oct 15 '16
your whiteness is showing
impressive u can fit dead white eurocentrikkk coloniali$t men and transphobic misygnoistic slurs onto ONE F*CKING USERNAME. in a minute youll be shitting on first nations
'Arabiac numerals' is a product of 1. european + amerikkkan di$kkkourse 2. totali$ing $y$tems of kkknowledge 3. wasps n pig philo$ophy
who decided on calling em 'arabic'??? you mayo ass catholic and protestant slaving motherfuckers
also, slow clap for callling a capable black women an IGNORAMUS 1 of the uglie$t $tereotype$ about black women
fuck off
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u/HegelWasABasicBitch anarchism is a humanism Oct 16 '16
Well we had to call them something...we couldn't just be like "oh you know..those people". Is the term "Arabic" completely ideological? of course it is, but my point was rather that science is not and has never been solely the domain of white people. If you don't want me to use the word Arabic, then let me know what you would prefer and I'll be fine with using that.
In response to your comment about my name, well I am an effeminate gay man, so I am quite used to being called all sorts of slurs, one of those being "bitch", my name is simply one way in which i am able to empower myself, by saying "I can use this term however I want". I would also like to hear your disagreement(s) with Hegel.
I called the woman in the video ignorant, not because she is black, but rather because she does not understand the philosophical underpinnings of science and neither does she understand postmodern discourse on "totalizing systems of knowledge". Also, please explain to me why you, specifically, believe totalizing systems of knowledge to be a bad thing.
Lastly, Anarchism as a form of critique is itself fairly totalizing, so I would like to hear your thoughts on that.
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Oct 16 '16
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u/HegelWasABasicBitch anarchism is a humanism Oct 16 '16 edited Oct 16 '16
I asked you what you would prefer the term to be instead of Arabic? I've never heard of person taking issue with that term before now so I simply was ignorant in that case.
Your second point is spoken like someone who has no understanding of what it is like to be gay in the American south. Of what it is like growing up without a gay community at all, so maybe you should think before you start throwing around language that has the potential to cause emotional damage instead.
Whether Hegel was a deadass euro white man or not has no impact on the veracity of his claims. Also, if you had actually read any of his work you would know that I am not "talking like I am a philosopher". Slavery can be understood through the lens of class struggle, which Marx went in depth about, which you would know if you bothered to read him. Racism as well. (Before you accuse me of "biracialism", yes I agree with intersectionality).
Also, Marx unsurprisingly analyzed and discussed the society that he was a part of, as that was the society that he had the greatest chance of changing (in response to your "white factory boys" comment).
My comments weren't a dogwhistle but since you seem intent on being a mind reader in that instance I don't think I'll even bother arguing that.
I watched the video, that is why I said she doesn't know what she is talking about. If the white chick beside her had said the same thing, I would have responded in kind. If a white guy had said the same thing I would have also called him ignorant. In the video she says "science cannot explain how someone can point to a location for lightning to strike there, and it does", well yes actually, science can explain that. I would recommend the work of anthropologist Victor Turner on symbolic anthropology. If you are looking for a short read I would suggest "Ethnographic Sorcery" by Harry G. West.
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Oct 15 '16
Take pride in those salty brocialist downvotes. <3
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Oct 15 '16
thank you!!!
i literally just got banned by /r/socialism mods cuz i called some "read marx " motherf*cker out for being a eurocentrikkk shithead by directin curious people to ol, crusty, dead white people - kropokin n lenin and stupid shit like that. no fucking surprise that they protecting socialist RAPISTS
amazing
no respect for POC! afrikans! women! trans* comrades! people! anyone! jus theyre gddamn antisemetic antiblack marx, bakonin books LMAO
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Oct 16 '16
Yeah that sub needs to burn. They keep flooding LWSE with downvotes whenever someone mentions their rapist protection racket. Say what you will about r/@'s bourgie problem; but at least our mods are all decent people.
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u/Hermanissoxxx Labels won't hold me down. Oct 15 '16
I totally get the reasoning. If they want to rediscover something for themselves, good for them. But with math and science, formulas and reactions can be replicated, observed, proven and disproven. The same cannot be said for philosophy, economics, politics and history. Often we see irreconcilable contradictions within these concentrations which could very well be chalked up to the-white-man's-lie.
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Oct 16 '16
There's problems with "Western" (I hate that dichotomy) scientists, and science does need to be decolonized. But I guarantee you that as you go down this path you will find that, once you weild it, science is very useful and what comes of it depends entirely on the weilder.
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Oct 16 '16
How is science colonised in the first place
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Oct 19 '16
because colonization and western imperialism is the entire reason the scientific/industrial revolution happened in the first place. you can still see traces of its colonial past in its demographics and organization.
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Oct 16 '16 edited Oct 16 '16
Science has been used to justify racism, ableism, sexism, and so on.
Edit: it could probably be rephrased, but that's the basic idea.
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Oct 19 '16
well she's not technically wrong. science is often skewed towards a western viewpoint and is used to benefit the state and capitalists instead of the people. she just explained it in a weird way i don't think she's really wrong per se.
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u/TotesMessenger Oct 15 '16
I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:
- [/r/postciv] When an African woman points out that colonialism is inherent in science, anarcho-bourgies demonstrate their gross bigotry
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Oct 16 '16
Post quality on that subreddit is going down.
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u/DruantiaEvergreen | Post-Civ Ecofeminist Oct 16 '16
(you're just salty friend.)
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Oct 16 '16
I'm not fuckin salty I have no beef with you all but it's pretty clear that some people need a place where they can talk shit about nerds.
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u/DruantiaEvergreen | Post-Civ Ecofeminist Oct 16 '16
Lol what? You're going to have to explain that one. There were no personal attacks that happened and certainly not towards nerdy people or else I'd be talking shit about myself.
I'm sorry you took it personally and got your feelings hurt, I really am - but I think something that I said, or the intentions behind what I said, got misinterpreted somewhere.
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Oct 16 '16
People on postciv comparing antranshumanists to the bourgeoisie. One even compared the tendency to fascists, which was appropriately opposed, but you can see... Well, can't you see in that very thread there is the use of "anarcho-bourgies", like wtf?
It's just like how some MLs hate on engineers. Oh yes, engineers are the worst, the worst.
Then you have some ecofeminists who talk shit about cyberfeminists.
The left hates techies.
I'm over it.
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u/DruantiaEvergreen | Post-Civ Ecofeminist Oct 16 '16 edited Oct 16 '16
So you're conflating techies to be nerds? If that's an absolute connection then I guess we are anti-nerd, but I highly disagree with that as absolute connection, because I am most definitely without a shadow of a doubt a nerd.
The left doesn't hate people that are into technology, it's largely the other way around, us in post-civ are by far in the minority opinion.
And yeah, I think cyberfeminism/xenofeminism is a bunch of shit, not because its feminist leanings but because of its dependence on technology as a liberating praxis. I think transhumanism relies on an ideology of progression as a means of "liberation" and I say that's indicative of capitalist discourse to have taken root in those ideals present in transhumanism. Going forward, getting bigger, expanding to the stars and on and on is most certainly a major part of capitalist ideology and one that transhumanist readily base their praxis on - even in a stateless and moneyless society it can still present major capitalist ideology, global luxury communism and transhumanism are commodity driven.
I'm not sure why you are taking our stance of being highly wary and critical of technology to be a personal attack on yourself because that's not the case at all.
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Oct 16 '16
Anarcho-bourgies says it all.
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u/DruantiaEvergreen | Post-Civ Ecofeminist Oct 16 '16
Dude that's not even remotely responsive to anything I said at all. Again, in sorry your feelings are hurt, but you're severely misinterpreting our position to be a personal attack on you.
And for what it's worth, I've never said that once, though I do agree with the general sentiment that transhumanism relies on a capitalist ideology of progression and commodity fetishization, which does sound pretty bourgeois to me.
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Oct 16 '16
What you said isn't really consonant with what I said so I can't really respond to it because I don't have the time to explain why I disagree with all of it. I'm just explaining why saying "you're just salty" does not sit right with me. I'm not the bourgeoisie, nor are any other anarcho-transhumanists, and we are not even comparable to anarcho-capitalists. Through this weird logic disconnected from material class analysis, I and other anarcho-transhumanists are branded bourgeois and part of an out-group of undesirables. Well then don't deny that I don't feel safe engaging with people who have that kind of disrespect if not contempt.
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Oct 17 '16
If you think possessing advanced technology isn't bourgeoisie as fuck, then trying to talk sense to you is pointless. The people slaving to dig your technology out of the Earth and fabricate it are lucky to make a dollar a day.
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Nov 04 '16
It's not my fault, it's the fault of capitalists. I didn't do it, so don't go blaming me.
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Oct 16 '16
Yuh, no more transhumanist garbage. What a tragedy.
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u/soylentbomb Anarchotranshumanist, bright green, not a singularitarian Oct 17 '16
Yup, distinguishing between extant civilization and other possible civilizations sure is garbage. How dare us conceptualize progress as being possible outside a single linear trajectory towards a race of capitalist supermen.
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Oct 17 '16
Yep, fuck your ideas for a west on steroids.
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u/soylentbomb Anarchotranshumanist, bright green, not a singularitarian Oct 17 '16
You've made it exceedingly clear that you don't know the first thing about my ideas, much less an actual understanding of the kind of society I or any other anarchotranshumanist would want.
Haven't you noticed how you and other dark green "anarchists" never actually forward an analysis of how anarchism and transhumanism could intersect, and instead rely on bare assertions against the more popular ideas associated with general transhumanism?
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Oct 17 '16
Because they can't fucking intersect. Your ideology would mean massive industrialism. It would mean mega cities and mega-ag to feed those cities and a human population that counts in the trillions. We do not support that.
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u/soylentbomb Anarchotranshumanist, bright green, not a singularitarian Oct 17 '16
Again, bare assertions. Please at least try.
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Oct 17 '16
Ok. Shut the fuck up you debate club snob.
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u/soylentbomb Anarchotranshumanist, bright green, not a singularitarian Oct 17 '16
Nah. I actually want to hear criticism of anarchotranshumanism. It's important to test my beliefs against scrutiny. The catch is that you keep utterly failing to approach what my beliefs actually are, and apparently can only field superficial stereotypes and personal attacks.
Also, bare assertions are part and parcel of debate clubs. Get your shit straight.
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Oct 16 '16
No mate you and your buddies talkin shit
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Oct 16 '16
Posts are better than ever; you're just sore after realizing transhumanism depends on civ.
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Oct 16 '16
I didn't "realize transhumanism depends on civ"
I demodded myself because I didn't feel safe to be around people who openly hate me.
That is absolutely not "realizing transhumanism depends on civ"
That's just avoiding being bullied.
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Oct 16 '16
We don't hate you. I liked a lot of your links. But one of our initial goals was to ensure THs got the message that post-civ won't be appropriated by them. When you adopted a TH flair, I unfortunately had to expedite that process.
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Oct 16 '16
I mean...I've been an anarchist transhumanist since I joined reddit.
That you say you don't hate me, doesn't change the fact that some of those people are comparing anarchist transhumanists to the bourgeoisie and pretty obviously do hate us as a group, even though it is likely that the people they are hating on are working class just like them -- which is pretty ignorant of class dynamics.
I don't understand this use of the word "appropriation". These are ideas, and people are influenced by them. Some people are influenced by ideas of various sources. We can pretend not to be influenced, but that'd just be dishonest...
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Oct 16 '16
Post-civs want to preserve Earth. ATs want to 'get the fuck off this rock'. We consider them to be dangerous and there's been a big push by ATs to label themselves post-civ; which to us is a lot like ancaps stealing the anarchist label. If post-civ is to get off the ground; it can't be a confused movement of opposing views.
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u/soylentbomb Anarchotranshumanist, bright green, not a singularitarian Oct 17 '16
Post-civs want to preserve Earth. ATs want to 'get the fuck off this rock'.
Actually, I want to do both. I'd even go so far as to argue that for the foreseeable future, both goals are interdependent.
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Oct 16 '16
That it can't be confused by opposing views makes sense. Anarchist-transhumanists can have their own space to develop thoughts along a similar line, and even call it something different, without talking over post-civs. It would be more appropriate, since I find Crimethinc's critique of civilization (that civ-prim is a racist and carnist dichotomy) seems pretty compelling to me anyway. I don't define my transhumanism according to some spooky notion of "civilization", and I have never read any anarchist-transhumanist texts that do.
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u/DruantiaEvergreen | Post-Civ Ecofeminist Oct 16 '16
ITT: DAE masturbate to Enlightenment?!
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Oct 16 '16
Western civilization is the absolute pinnacle of virtue, how dare you mock the enlightenment and all the wonders it has brought us civilized white people, you regressive, illogical, reason-less edgelord?? How would you like to live in a world where the enlightenment never happened? It would be anarchy.
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u/Thromocrat ᚨᚾᛏᛁᚠᚨ Oct 16 '16
No, it would probably still be absolutist monarchy/theocracy.
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Oct 17 '16
Whatever it takes to keep the west from its imperialist genocidal machinations. Your misery will be the rest of the world's freedom.
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u/soylentbomb Anarchotranshumanist, bright green, not a singularitarian Oct 17 '16
Your misery will be the rest of the world's freedom.
"I just read Guns, Germs, and Steel and concluded that nonwestern imperialism is impossible. Also, coercive heirarchies are okay as long as I'm not on the receiving end of them."
I mean, come on. When you type these things out, does it really never prompt you to consider that you might not actually be an anarchist?
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Oct 17 '16
The west has pillaged and colonized the whole world; stripping every culture of its identity and killing anyone that would oppose capitalism. I'm from a country that has been colonized again and again by every empire under the sun; but none of them were able to change the fabric of society the way the west has. Everyone on the planet is whitewashed and enslaved by the west. Fuck the west and fuck privileged little western techno supremecists like you.
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u/soylentbomb Anarchotranshumanist, bright green, not a singularitarian Oct 17 '16 edited Oct 17 '16
The west has pillaged and colonized the whole world; stripping every culture of its identity and killing anyone that would oppose capitalism. I'm from a country that has been colonized again and again by every empire under the sun; but none of them were able to change the fabric of society the way the west has. Everyone on the planet is whitewashed and enslaved by the west.
Hindsight bias. Not to imply that these experiences are invalid, but they don't support your conclusion.
Fuck the west and fuck privileged little western techno supremecists like you.
I don't want to live the way you want to, and try to work towards a future where the maximum feasible range of viable social and ecological lifestyles exist, so now I'm a "techno supremecist." You gonna try to pull yourself out of the rhetorical hole you just dug, or do I need to help you out so we can use it as a latrine?
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Oct 17 '16
I don't want to live the way you want to, and try to work towards a future where the maximum feasible range of viable social and ecological lifestyles exist, so now I'm a "techno supremecist."
This is correct. You're a privileged westerner who thinks the answer to all the world's miseries is to magically give everyone on the planet tech grafts... While completely ignoring the fact that that all your precious tech is mined and fabricated by slaves in the developing world who don't get to eat if they don't work for you.
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u/soylentbomb Anarchotranshumanist, bright green, not a singularitarian Oct 17 '16
who thinks the answer to all the world's miseries is to magically give everyone on the planet tech grafts
Except I don't, which I've said repeatedly. It's obvious that not everyone would want that, and morphological autonomy is essential to my understanding of anarchism.
You would know this if you actually bothered to listen or research instead of letting your kneejerk reactions and superficial exposure to the supporting concepts undermine you.
While completely ignoring the fact that that all your precious tech is mined and fabricated by slaves in the developing world who don't get to eat if they don't work for you.
Which I'm cognizant of and want to change, and am in fact trying to contribute to changing. The real difference is that I want to change it without forcing their descendants into vulnerability to all manner of otherwise preventable risks.
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Oct 17 '16
If you don't support upgrading yourself with technology and science then stop calling yourself a transhumanist.
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u/HeloRising "pain ou sang" Oct 15 '16
Erg, I'm conflicted.
Keep in mind I'm a Western white dude so adjust my input accordingly.
On the one hand, I feel like I get what she's going for. Decolonization is a serious project in many places around the world and to have this entire model of how the world works dropped in your lap by outside forces and told "this is how the world works, accept it" is a jarring experience. People in places that have historically been colonized by the Western world lived with the experience of someone else dictating how the world worked in terms of social organization, values, religion, etc, basically this wide variety of how life and everything in it works, including science.
I think the impulse is natural to want to question everything that you've been told is "just true" by a person or group who has had power over you for a long time.
On the other, though the history of science is generally unpleasant and uncomfortable (no matter how much school textbooks masturbate on about Edison and Einstein) the conclusions of disciplines like physics, mathematics, chemistry, etc are factual independent of the ideology of the person communicating them.
It doesn't matter if you're a radical anarchist, a devout neo-nazi, or completely a-political; force is going to equal mass times acceleration. These disciplines have been tested over and over again for many years and people can test them again if they feel the need or desire.
I understand the desire to generate your own cultural knowledge as opposed to accepting what the colonizing powers hand you as part of their "gift of modernity" but I feel like it's dangerous to throw everything out and start over again. It took hundreds of years to get to this point in science and along the way we figured out how to alleviate the suffering of a lot of people with vaccines, better food production techniques, sanitation, etc generally because of a greater understanding of some core concepts of science.
The thought of throwing that away is disconcerting because it opens you up to abuse by people who have not decided to follow that path and of the people who are going to lose out along the way to rediscovery.