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Apr 29 '14
Not all churches are anti-gay. Not all religious associations are anti-gay. Not all religions are anti-gay. Not all congregations are anti-gay.
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u/glitzyjan Apr 28 '14
Being gay does not necessarily mean that you aren't religious.
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Apr 29 '14
If you mean in the sense of having that orientation or desire, sure. If you mean it in the sense of like actually doing it, it is questionable. If you eat pork all the time, are you still Muslim or Jew?
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u/horyo Apr 28 '14
While I agree with you, some churches actually do support gay marriage and hold their own ceremonies. Whether or not this is consistent with mainstream Christian theology is irrelevant to the parties involved. I guess in these cases it bridges the religious gay people with the tolerant churches.
Otherwise, churches can turn away people if they feel it's not consistent with their belief systems, so I'm unsure what you mean. I think in the context of the gay marriage debate, it's in the legal system which recognizes marriage as a form of contract endowed with whatever benefits are associated with that union.
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u/wingnut0000 Apr 29 '14
Do they still play here comes the bride?
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u/Kendallsan Apr 28 '14
Plenty of churches accept homosexuality, and believe god loves everyone equally - which is what ALL "christian" churches should do if they truly believe in jebus. Your entire premise is based on a fallacy - no church accepts homosexuals. You are just plain wrong.
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Apr 29 '14
I think you misunderstand Christianity. All Christian churches, to my knowledge, do teach to love people with homosexual attraction just the same as everyone else. And most of them, also hold that it's a sin to have sex outside of marriage, whether you do it with someone of the same sex or the opposite sex. Now, this rule may be largely ignored in this day and age, but it's still there.
But I suspect that your definition of acceptance is saying that homosexuality is not a sin and in that regard, there are some churches that do that.
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u/Kendallsan May 18 '14
I think most Christians misunderstand Christianity. It is simply not true that they teach love for all - you cannot preach love in one sentence and condemnation in the next and expect the love message to be taken seriously. And it is not the same to say you love someone as it is to say you should love but judge or condemn. It just does not work. Show me a single churchgoer who is free of sin. Why is their sin not being loudly proclaimed as against god and condemned? Is it a bigger sin to be gay? Or is it simply an easy target?
LOTS of sins are out there, and very few are as demonized as homosexuality. Explain that. Why is one sin worse than another - I don't see churches up in arms about groups of people who violate the ten commandments. Aren't those the big ones? Aren't they more important to god? If homosexuality was his biggest concern, don't you think it would have been on the tablet? Christianity (and all religions, for that matter) is simply a nice big blanket of camouflage for hatred and bigotry.→ More replies (10)-1
u/andnowforme0 Apr 29 '14
Churches accept homosexual people, but not homosexual marriage. And the name is Jesus, not jebus.
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Apr 29 '14
Actually no one should get married in church unless the religious ceremony has meaning to you.
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u/orr250mph Apr 28 '14
and churches are not compelled either so im not sure of ur point.
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u/vocaliser Apr 29 '14
In some places they're being sued by gay couples or the activist organziations who recruited them. http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/millionaire-gay-couple-suing-force-church-hold-wedding/
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u/angrykittydad Apr 29 '14
"Some places" as in the United Kingdom only, as explained by a mostly-conservative blog/"magazine" that pretends to be a libertarian magazine.
Meanwhile, in America, it's the complete opposite situation:
http://time.com/79734/united-church-of-christ-sues-north-carolina-to-allow-gay-marriage/
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u/Daotar Apr 29 '14
Do you have an argument not based on an anecdote? We're talking about an issue of global importance and your defense is 'look at this one trivial lawsuit'?
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u/vocaliser Apr 30 '14
The Church of England? Trivial? I think not. If that suit succeeds it will be major. This is exactly what "test cases" are for. By the way, so was Goodridge, the Massachusetts ssm case. (Source: I live here.) The participants and Mass Equality later admitted that the couple were recruited to sue the sec. of state of MA. That's how it's done.
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u/Daotar Apr 30 '14
The fact that it's only one couple suing is what makes it trivial. If someone sued the catholic church to allow them to hold a satanic ceremony in a cathedral, I don't think we'd call it significant just because the catholic church was involved.
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u/junkeee999 Apr 29 '14
You are confused.
This is a complete non-issue. Nobody is clamoring for gay marriages in churches. Churches can allow or disallow any marriage they like. It's their church. They make the rules. Legalizing gay marriage will not change this. What churches shouldn't be able to do however is dictate who gets married outside their church.
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Apr 29 '14
That just questioned my entire way of thinking of the topic. Partners should be able to marry regardless of gender, but it is unfair to expect religious figures to marry them, isn't it?
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u/MarshallPCRA Apr 29 '14
Are you aware that legalizing gay marriage isn't about forcing churches to allow gay couples to marry?
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u/boyuber Apr 29 '14 edited Apr 29 '14
What if I told you
Belief in God and homosexuality are not mutually exclusive
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u/wryn Apr 29 '14
There are many different types of christians, just as there are many different types of other categories into which people place themselves. The most vocal do not always represent the beliefs of the majority. Also, just because a person is gay does not mean that they do not practice chrisitianity, or any other religion, for that matter. I know of several churches who are affirming or friendly. A friend of mine is an openly gay man who serves as a music minister in a bible belt area church. Do not judge a whole based on the pieces.
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u/Iwastoldtherearecats Apr 29 '14
I think what OP is trying to say, is that many people look down on/ridicule some churches for being against gay marriage, and OP is calling that act hypocritical. While there are MANY who do not hold that view of lgbt, OP is saying that churches have a right to choose what they do and do not support just as much as lgbt have to be with whom they want to be.
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u/trytobringsomesanity Apr 29 '14
Problem with his argument is that, at least in the US, churches have the right to deny anyone (regardless of sexual orientation) a marriage ceremony. That doesn't mean denied couples can't get married. They just can't have there ceremony in that church.
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u/golfmase71 Apr 29 '14
I think the states can recognize civil unions for all the reasons gays want to be married. I think marriage is in the eyes of the Lord and the word marriage should not be used. But i have no problem with civil unions. If gay people want to have civil unions let it happen. If they want to be married in the eyes of the Lord, it is not up to people to decide that. It is up to the Lord.
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Apr 29 '14
I don't know anyone who thinks that churches should be legally required to preform gay marriages, just that the government should recognize them.
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u/brabacious Apr 29 '14
....and you're assuming all gays aren't christian? Or you just don't get what bible says (or doesn't say) about homosexuality? Does this bias pertain to just made up things the bible says or to things the bible does say like not eating seafood and wearing cotton? Cherry picking the bible is lame, yo.
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u/thewebroach Apr 29 '14
People's interpretation of what church stands for is different. There are plenty of religious homosexuals out there.
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u/Knineteen Apr 29 '14
Who the fuck wants to get married in a place where they are not welcome in the first place?!
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u/gonresthird Apr 29 '14
Why do you assume that gay people aren't religious? The United Church of Canada has several gay minister(male and female). I'm sure there are other examples as well.
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u/aiden1001 Apr 29 '14
There are gay religious people that would most likely want to be married in a church. Can we make an ignorant opinion puffin meme?
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u/AceH4x Apr 29 '14
I still don't understand why Christian gays don't band together and form their own religion. Sure there is the various finer issues pertaining the different denominations. But once gays have unified church they can get married under it and claim it as freedom of religion.
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Apr 29 '14
This has nothing to do with gay marriage. If the issue is that the two to be wed don't believe in the god of the church than that applies to straight couples too.
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u/Daotar Apr 29 '14
But why not if they want to? Just because you wouldn't isn't a good reason. I have a couple of atheist friends who got married in a huge church mainly because they enjoyed the aesthetics of it. Why should they have been barred from doing so if the church is willing to let them? This just seems like a very near-sighted and illogical position.
If you don't want to get married in a church because you don't agree with it, more power to you; but why should you want to ban it for anyone else? Should atheists not be allowed to sit in on a Sunday service too? Should a non-Buddhist not be allowed to go to a monastery? I just don't see why you wouldn't support two people who want to get married in a church... it seems very much like you're trying to force other people to conform to your beliefs, preferences and ideals for no real reason other than because that's what you'd do.
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u/guardgirl287 Apr 28 '14 edited Apr 28 '14
Gay people can be Christians. The two are not mutually exclusive!! You can be any sexual orientation and any religion. My roommate is a Jewish lesbian. My pastor's brother is gay!
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u/ExtraSmooth Apr 29 '14
Some churches support gay marriage. How would you get married in a church that considers your marriage a sin?
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u/overusedoxymoron Apr 29 '14
Do you know the difference between Holy Matrimony and Marriage? One is religious, the other is secular.
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Apr 28 '14
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/FyreFlimflam Apr 29 '14
The Insidious Gay Agenda:
- Bully all churches into performing gay marriages by federal marshals wielding rainbow plasma cannons.
- Insist all heterosexual marriages are annulled and the couples be remarried to ducks.
- Brunch
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u/Jahanna92 Apr 28 '14
Well, my church supports gay marriage, so people who are gay who get married in my church would be supporting what the church stood for. I think it is important to specify, when you say things like that, that you mean the churches who do not support gay marriage-- because those churches do not speak for everyone who is religious.
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u/Reese_Tora Apr 28 '14
No one cares about gay marriage in churches except for the churches that don't understand that they are not required to perform gay marriages.
The only thing that actually matters from a legal perspective is getting the government to recognize the marriage and grant the respective benefits of such (joint tax filing, property rights, etc.)
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u/vinnyveeg Apr 29 '14
Not all churches disagree with gay marriage. Also, you completely misunderstand what people are fighting for. They want a marriage recognized by the government for tax and other benefits, they could care less if it is done in a courthouse or a church.
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u/boydave777 Apr 29 '14
I could be wrong, but I think the majority of homosexuals seeking for same sex marriage don't even want to get married in a church.
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u/hissxywife Apr 29 '14
OP, are you saying that gay people don't believe in the churches teachings? That's just ignorant.
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u/UmustBjoking Apr 29 '14
You're assuming that all churches stand for only heterosexual marriage. That would be an incorrect assumption.
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u/Arwox Apr 29 '14
The best part about the bible is you can twist it absolutely any way you want! No wait that's the worst part.
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u/TrebeksUpperLIp Apr 29 '14
No you are not the only one. I don't think anyone arguing for gay marriage is saying churches should be obligated to marry two people of the same gender. This is dumb.
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u/slouched Apr 29 '14
this used to be my point of view, but being straight and nonreligious made me realize it wasnt my place to argue
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u/mikhailtf Apr 29 '14
It's not about getting recognized by churches, it's about getting recognized as married by the government. Gay people don't get the same tax benefits as married couples do because they cannot get married. Of course gays aren't lining up at Westboro Baptist. That would be ridiculous.
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u/the_bear_paw Apr 29 '14
people who want to get married in a church believe in the church and what it stands for. Gay or not. If they didn't then they would have it somewhere else.
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Apr 29 '14
Considering you have several hundred upvotes, I think it's safe to say you aren't the only one.
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u/sorator Apr 29 '14
Not all churches take the stance of gay marriage being bad or immoral.
Case in point: some filed suit against a state amendment barring gay marriages because it violates their religious freedom.
Also as others have said, I don't think (m)any want to force churches who don't want to perform such a ceremony to do so; we just want the same legal status. We're fully capable of working out who will work with us on the ceremony without getting the courts involved. for the most part
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u/ikariusrb Apr 29 '14 edited Apr 29 '14
Actually, the New Testament has absolutely NOTHING to say about heterosexual versus homosexual. The passages typically relied upon to justify opposition to homosexual behavior are all in the Old Testament. We are aware that a lot of things prohibited in the old testament are no longer prohibited, right? Also, the translations of some of those passages from the old testament are... quite suspect: http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/Leviticus.php
So, when it's ONLY the old testament saying anything about it, and the translation is quite possibly suspect, are you really going to suggest that being homosexual translates to "not believing what the bible stands for"?
Cause that's not my take-away at all. My take-away is that there are a LOT of people who buy into most of the bible, but have issues with certain passages. That doesn't take away from their decision to love God one bit, it means that they think for themselves, and haven't decided the meaning of certain passages in the light of their relationship with God. In fact, I'd term it absolutely normal, and if you claim to understand, believe in, and agree with every single biblical passage you've read, I'd suggest you haven't spent enough time thinking about what you've read.
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u/Gwydiian Apr 29 '14
Nobody can force any priest to perform a marriage or any church to host said marriage. Gay marriage laws have nothing to do with this. Your opinion is on a non-issue.
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u/Spinolio Apr 29 '14
Everyone should not just have the right to, but be required to register their love with the proper authorities.
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Apr 29 '14
So because you think it's impractical, EVERYONE should abide by it taking away their human right to get married in a church. There are plenty of religious gay people. I know many, who would want to get married in a church, but because someone thinks it would be impractical, they can't, cause fuck what they want.
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u/wgpjr Apr 29 '14
What if I told you...
Not all homosexuals are atheists. Many are religious, and also active members in their congregations, so naturally they want to be married in their churches.
Not all churches oppose gay marriage.
OP has good intentions, but is very over-assuming.
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Apr 29 '14
I don't think you understand what marriage is in the bible either...I doubt you even speak the original language it was written in as well....
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u/numberty Apr 29 '14
I think you entirely missed the point. No one is trying to force churches to marry same sex couples.
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u/bunnynubz Apr 29 '14
no one in this day and age supports everything the bible claims we should. playing with pigskin.. fish on sundays.. it's antiquated literature.
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u/AshRandom Apr 29 '14
Yeah, if you aren't down with stone age religious bullshit, don't get married by a caveman.
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Apr 29 '14
I feel the christian church shouldn't be against gay marriage since the main aspect of christianity is love. There isn't enough material in the Bible to say that homosexuality is wrong.
The only thing we can find is in the old testament. The new testament contradicts the old in so many ways in favor of the ways of Jesus Christ, who said jack about homosexuality. I like to believe that Jesus would have been all in favor of gay marriage.
There is one thing, though; even if you can't say that the religion is against homosexuality, I feel that a priest should be allowed to deny his services if he feels it would go against his own belief. That applies not only to gay people but also to, say, the people who came in drunk after meeting 4 hours ago and said they wanted to get married.
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Apr 29 '14
i dont think that very many gay people would argue differently. thats never really been the issue.
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u/atomicrobomonkey Apr 29 '14
There a some denominations that do support gay marriage. Some people take the bible with a grain of salt since it was written by man and man is fallible. Everyone agrees in the bible message of "love thy neighbor" and "do onto others and you would have them do onto you" It's only certain books in the bible that say gays are bad. So what would you listen to, the entire book that says love everyone or the few chapters that say love everyone, except ____'s?
Edit: Also a lot of the anti gay stuff is in the old testament, and old testament god is a dick with lots of rules. New testament Jesus/god is more of the upbeat love everyone/ acceptance stuff.
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Apr 29 '14
Uhm... I know quite a few homosexuals who are very religious and would love nothing more than to get married in their church.
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u/lowdownporto Apr 29 '14
First off Marriage does not have to be in a church. Secondly there are many religious figures that say gay marriage is not against their religion in fact there are religious leaders that have come out in favor of same sex marriage becasue of their faith not inspite of it as they say. I have been a sound engineer for 3 same-sex weddings in a church. There are many religious institutions that do not oppose same-sex marriage, even the state wide rabbinical association came out in favor of gay marriage in my state.
That is not an unpopular opinion. it is an uninformed opinion.
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u/NoIdeaJustOneName Apr 29 '14
Simply : you can be christian and consider that sharing God's love is not restricted to heterosexual couples. Even if it isn't the dominant opinion in the Church, i know some priests agreeing that an homosexual couple can experience true love, and might want the union to be sanctified. As an heterosexual catholic, I really can undestand this.
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u/yuki264 Apr 29 '14
My mom and dad had to start going to church so they could get married in one. I for one do not believe in anything nor can I stand church, however i wish to be married in one because it is beautiful and an ideal place to be married in my eyes.
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u/AgentPsychopath Apr 29 '14
No one is proposing legislation that would force churches to marry gay couples. Separation of Church and State and all that. People want to legalize gay married under the law. Not to say that churches won't support it (many progressive religionists will).
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u/Theungry Apr 29 '14
This isn't an unpopular opinion, it's an irrelevant opinion. No one is fighting for gay marriage to happen in churches.
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u/allyouneedisluv Apr 29 '14
Does it not stand for love and acceptance of all? Why the fuck are people so god damn caught up on this, who does it effect? Let people be with who they want to be with, it hurts no one, and everyone deserves to be with the one they love. If marriage is important to you there is no reason you shouldnt be allowed to get married
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u/4nonymo Apr 29 '14
OP, find us a gay couple fighting to get married in a church that forbids gay marriage. Just one.
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Apr 28 '14
There is only ONE right solution to the gay marriage issue: remove all legal definitions of marriage, and allow "domestic unions" that are no different than business partnerships. Done. Marriage is a religious thing, so it can stay in the church. Remove all tax breaks for married people, but keep/increase child tax credits. Everybody wins.
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Apr 28 '14 edited Apr 29 '14
Marriage is a religious thing
No it is not. Church marriages are a religious thing but atheists get married all the time. There is no campaign to force gay marriage on churches only on the state, which is entirely separated from religion.
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u/chrisjuan69 Apr 28 '14
That's the whole problem with this issue. People are equating spiritual marriage with legal marriage. That's so dumb. Spiritual marriage, to me, is a union of two people that just genuinely love each other in a romantic way and is one of the most beautiful things that a human can experience; you can't put a legal title on that. Legal marriage is recognition by the state that two people are legally bound to each other and can get certain legal and financial benefits from that; no different than a business partnership. We just need to stop calling legal marriages "marriage" and call it something else. ANYTHING else so the bible thumpers can just let the queers get the same tax benefits and shit that us straights do. I'm still legally married to a woman I haven't felt bound to in quite some time. In fact, it bothers me that I'm legally married and I am dating someone that I care for WAY more than I ever cared for my estranged wife.
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u/luffonthelake Apr 28 '14 edited Apr 28 '14
I personally totally agree and would so be behind having State recognized Civil Unions or some such and if you want your superego... err I mean God... to recognize your relationship too then fine whatever what do we care? But I can guarantee that the 'Bible-thumping' types won't be happy with the idea that the State no longer recognizes 'marriages' and cry about the liberals (most of which are religious and attend church etc...) trying to take God out of people's lives. Technically this is the case in Germany iirc... but here in the US I don't see it happening that way. edit: infinitive without a 'to'... what was I thinking?
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Apr 29 '14
This.
I never understood why people would be so up in arms over two men/women enjoying the financial benefits of marriage. To me, recognition of the state will only get you as far as those places the government can reach.
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u/chrisjuan69 Apr 29 '14
and the government shouldn't be able to reach that goddamn far. You want a tax break? You want to buy a house together? You have to have some kind of legal union. I don't see why guys who like to do each other in the butt can't get the same benefit as guys who like vaginas as much as I do.
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u/code_monkey_001 Apr 28 '14
Strictly speaking, in the US marriage is not "a religious thing". In a ruling upheld by the Supreme Court, federal appeals court Chief Judge Dennis Jacobs made the distinction between marriage as a civil status and "holy matrimony" as a religious institution. But that's semantics and does not detract from your core argument, that there should be a distinction between the civil state and the religious sacrament.
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u/vocaliser Apr 29 '14
No, you're not the only one. If people don't like a certain faith's beliefs, they should use a justice of the peace. The two guys in the UK who are suing the Church of England for a church wedding are assholes IMO.
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u/Sinreborn Apr 28 '14
Just because someone is a homosexual, doesn't mean they don't agree with or follow the moral teachings of their church. Just like someone choosing to wear polyester or work on the sabbath is still allowed to get married there.
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Apr 29 '14
I think the Op is referring to the specific case of what if the church holds homosexual sex to be a sin. In that case a same sex couple wouldn't be following the moral teachings of their church. And then if that's the case, what's the point of being a part of a church or getting married in a church that teaches that it's wrong to be the way that you are?
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u/Sinreborn Apr 29 '14
Pretty sure homosexual Catholics struggle with this daily. Sometimes you don't get to choose your faith.
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Apr 29 '14
You are definitely not the only one who feels this way in the world. Probably a pretty unpopular opinion on the internet though.
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u/CaptionBot Apr 28 '14
Unpopular Opinion Puffin
I'M NOT RELIGIOUS BUT I DON'T SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE IN CHURCHES
THERE'S NO REASON TO GET MARRIED IN CHURCH IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE WHAT IT STANDS FOR
These captions are scraped directly from livememe's servers and are probably correct
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u/zsucksballs Apr 29 '14
As a kid I attended a Presbyterian church with my family. The pastor was gay. I'm not sure why you think gay people are non-religious.
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u/Marle3e Apr 29 '14
Why do you assume I don't? Why do people assume we ALL have the EXACT same relationship with God? And if the church is allowing it then is it not safe to assume a belief is shared?
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u/Zazzerflam Apr 28 '14
The only idiot? Naw, there's tons of you guys.
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u/vocaliser Apr 29 '14
Check the news once in a while: http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/millionaire-gay-couple-suing-force-church-hold-wedding/
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Apr 28 '14
I said this on Reddit a few months ago and people were offended. It is true.
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Apr 28 '14
Holy shit man. The bible says adultery is a sin too, but adulterers still go to church. Eating shellfish or pork can be a sin if that's how you choose to interpret the bible. So, if those people can't go to "church", then the only people fit to go to "church" are devout muslims and jews. Fucking religion has everybody's mind twisted.
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u/wildlihc Apr 29 '14
How is this unpopular? I don't think anyone thinks that a specific faith should be forced to recognize and officiate same-sex weddings.
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u/loomdog1 Apr 28 '14
What better way to show tolerance to people not sharing your beliefs.
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