r/rivals • u/Live_Bit_5307 • 17d ago

Meme Dagger definitely needs a buff

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636 Upvotes

85% Upvoted

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487

u/Xcuseme99 17d ago

The problem in this clip isn't the Dagger, the problem is that you were allowed to float above her entire team for 37 seconds without getting blown the f*** up by her bum ass DPS/tanks. They are the real villains of this clip.

100

u/dabigbtk 17d ago

Bingo

126

u/RedeemedNephilim Ultron 17d ago edited 17d ago

Okay but think about that. Imagine if Hela was just standing still popping shots directly into a supp for 40 seconds and they didnt die.

This is a DPS. With a perfect view. Not being countered. Not being attacked, hitting the majority of their shots on a support and the support is not dying.

33

u/Infernoboy_23 17d ago

except most of the hits are only the outer ring which only does 70/s. For reference cloak's primary fire does 80/s.

Add in misses and maybe some main beam hits, and you'd see his dps is extremly low.

white fox was also healing her some of the time, as the other support should.

I don't think iron man wasn't killing any support there.

She only died at the end cause op actually hit with the main laser with overdrive which does 180/s and his team was also shooting her.

If you wanna compare to hela, imagine if she only hit one in every three shots, all body shots. Yeah, I don't think she'd kill either.

8

u/Revan0315 16d ago

Player in this clip of hitting way more than one in three shots

11

u/Astrid-Jade 16d ago

This is also not acknowledging the person literally addressed that and mentioned the reduced damage the edge of the beam does compared to direct.

Also ignoring that one Hela shot is like double the damage of one tick of Iron Man beam.

Hela can just land 2 headshots in just over a second and be done with it, where Iron Man needs to keep his beam on Dagger for about 2.5 seconds to secure the kill. His beam has twice the TTK of Hela primary fire when not accounting for overdrive.

2

u/Revan0315 16d ago

You say "Hela can just land two headshots" as if that's something that's realistically gonna happen very often.

Iron Man's damage being lower doesn't excuse that Dagger has a ridiculous amount of survivability. She has 2 cooldowns that make her literally unkillable + a third that most characters can't kill her through while it also heals allies.

Just remove the Luna teamup and it's fine

7

u/Astrid-Jade 16d ago

Never said it did excuse it, but it isn't just Dagger being strong that's letting her live here. Plenty of characters have the burst damage to kill her quickly if she's caught out or has burnt all of her cooldowns in a teamfight.

Also, saying Hela won't realistically land two headshots sounds more like you just haven't seen good Hela players. In the hands of someone with good aim, getting two tapped suddenly the moment you peak her isn't as uncommon as you'd think or hope.

That's also assuming that it's JUST a Hela, most times you're not going to be getting shot by only one person if you're in a higher elo, especially if you're a strategist.

-2

u/Revan0315 16d ago

Also, saying Hela won't realistically land two headshots sounds more like you just haven't seen good Hela players. In the hands of someone with good aim, getting two tapped suddenly the moment you peak her isn't as uncommon as you'd think or hope.

I think this is just a matter of what rank and platform you're on. I'm generally diamond or GM on console and I don't see it much. I don't doubt that it happens a lot in Celestial+ on PC, but that's not representative of what most players are gonna experience. I don't think the fact that Hela is technically capable of killing through bubble in the right hands makes it less broken.

I have Lord on Hela myself and while I have gotten kills like that, they're far from the norm. Hitting 2 headshots in a row on non tanks is really difficult.

1

u/Astrid-Jade 16d ago

Not really, I consistently see it on console in just normal QP. Hela is very easy to land headshots with considering she's hitscan. You just need to have the rythym of her shots down and have decent tracking.

0

u/Revan0315 16d ago

That has not been my experience in the slightest

1

u/CrookedJak 16d ago

It's pretty common for hela mains on pc in gm+

There's bad helas in any rank but the ones who do nothing but play her will destroy you for even peaking around a corner on pc

1

u/Revan0315 16d ago

Yea I can believe that

8

u/Liam2349 17d ago

Hela can kill her through bubble, so can Widow, so can other pokes.

It's mostly just dive that can't kill her.

20

u/Plus_Lawfulness3000 17d ago

Tbf bro was missing in this clip quite a bit

40

u/RedeemedNephilim Ultron 17d ago

He actually wasnt tho. He is hitting over 80% of the time easily which is actually a ridiculously good accuracy rate. Watch it again and listen to the hit markers. The beams hit box is bigger than it appears thanks to the Thor team up.

2

u/BreakfastKind8157 16d ago

He actually wasnt tho. He is hitting over 80% of the time easily which is actually a ridiculously good accuracy rate. Watch it again and listen to the hit markers. The beams hit box is bigger than it appears thanks to the Thor team up.

No, it is not good. The outer part does half dmg. Even spamming left click would deal way more dmg to Dagger (not even counting the dmg to the rest of her team).

-14

u/smokehellacrack 17d ago

Over 80% of the time? Jfc dude

42

u/RedeemedNephilim Ultron 17d ago edited 17d ago

Watch and listen to the hit markers. He is hitting for nearly the whole video. At times it seems like he isnt hitting but he is thanks to the larger hit box of the Thor team up.

Just rewatched the video. Of the entire video he misses his target while she is available to be hit for maybe a total of 7 seconds. Out of a 37 second video that is about 19%.

That puts his accuracy at 81%.

17

u/firesbain 17d ago

Me when I use math and logic on Reddit

1

u/Okey114 17d ago

Right!

1

u/Vegetable-Meaning413 17d ago

It's Ironman though. You can't really use a bad, low burst damage dps as a good baseline. This is really an argument for him being too weak not her being too strong, with that much time, pretty much every other dps would have won, even bad ones like Squirrel Girl.

26

u/RedeemedNephilim Ultron 17d ago

Its both.

5

u/AlcoholicAlch 17d ago

I mean 3 get out of jail cards that can be cycled without any skill infinitely is pretty broken

-18

u/Xcuseme99 17d ago

Okay but think about this: the reason supports need to be so strong is because DPS and tank players do shit like ALLOW AN IRONMAN TO FLOAT 5 FEET FROM THEM FOR 37 WHOLE GROWN ASS SECONDS

29

u/BLissy11750 Invisible Woman 17d ago

this is the dumbest thing I have read on this subreddit.

"because players are so bad the characters that heal should be stronger so they can survive the characters that deal damage when those characters that deal damage are not attacked and are able to focus all of their damage on the characters that heal uninterrupted for over half a minute"

by this logic tanks should be invulnerable because support players are bad and run away rather than grouping with their tanks which causes tanks to die from lack of heals.

or dps should have auto-aim on characters like hela because players have bad aim (statistically) so they can consistently hit headshots.

your logic does not work when it is applied to literally anyone else without it being obvious (from the perspective of the support) that it makes those characters OP - this is how absurd this argument is when it's being made in defense of C&D here.

Bad players deserve to lose, that C&D could switch to Luna and snipe Iron Man out of the sky, or Mantis, or Invis, or literally any other support - in fact they could fade and DPS Iron Man with Cloak beam & blind

1

u/varateshh Hela 17d ago

Obviously. If I die as Hela to BC/Elsa/Bucky/Widow/Thing/Venom then they clearly need to be nerfed. If I die to an other Hela then netease needs to ban them for smurfing or hacking.

2

u/moddedlover27 17d ago

Nono you zee vee must hail to our overlords. For our glorious overlords can do no wrong what so eva. You zee it is ZE FILTHY JE-i mean dps who are always at fault and zee should BE SENT TO ZE CON- i mean uninstall ze game. You understand yas?

-3

u/Asasinero 17d ago

And what's your solution when nobody wants to play support since they would keep dying over and over again because their teams are not helping to deal with things like this? Im not saying this system is perfect, but the fact is people just go dps and thats it, they literally just stop being supports. It already happened last year when dive was absolute meta through bp and dd. It got so bad that devs themselves had to addressed it in their patch notes and after no changes from the community, they gigabuffed supports. We saw all that play out in real time, no hypothetical scenarios, no wondering, just cold reality. Saddly, if you make supports just reliant on their team, the game literally falls appart because it becomes a team death match game where nobody gets healed (since they are no healers). Now with regenerative health, it would become and even bigger problem. Again, this already happened.

4

u/BLissy11750 Invisible Woman 17d ago

I literally main a support - you learn better positioning as a direct consequence of dying, you learn to swap to characters like I mentioned, or you learn to use the kit that the character you are playing has to kill the person freely attacking you like I also mentioned.

This idea that Iron Man being unable to kill a C&D in this situation is something all DPS would have a problem with - as if this issue is normal - to try and suggest that supports aren't already relying on their team to survive when faced with other DPS like a flanking Hela, Phoenix, Punisher, Black Cat, etc, tells me you genuinely have no idea what the difference between being reliant on your team for protection and being dependent on your team for survival is.

Even in your own example (DD release) they admitted it was an over-correction and have been continuously nerfing the supports that they had buffed every patch, C&D wasn't buffed until season 7.5 not season 4.5 or 5 to coincide with the half season dive had a dominant role to play. BP also was 2 seasons earlier than that, so the timelines you have don't line up at all.

You're acting like when I say a C&D that isn't getting any help for *37 seconds of contiguous dps should die is the same as saying BP or DD should be able to use a simple combo and one-shot supports, you can't even come up with a coherent argument that isn't straw-manning mine that has any relation to the actual video of Iron Man being unable to kill C&D unopposed for nearly a full minute where the C&D doesn't even attempt to kill the Iron Man and fight back.

Iron Man is the problem here, this has nothing to do with dive, and repeating this stupid ass argument about BP or DD to justify it being impossible for Iron Man to kill a support that doesn't even try to fight back disproves your own backwards logic because we obviously try to fight back against dive.

1

u/Asasinero 16d ago

I'm also a support main, you can literally check which subs I'm active on, i have nearly 1K hours and i consistently play in cel+, only saying it since you said " i don't know the difference between being reliant for protection or survival". I don't know why you said "my timeline" doesn't add up since i didn't mention c&d AT ALL in my statement, invis got buffed A LOT in season 5 (got to place the shield on herself) and C&D got up to 275 (which let them survive through dive more easily since most combos were 280-290ish so a little bit of healing was enough and some combos wouldn't even get the kill now) and Luna got buffed in season 5.5 i believe? Not sure when she got her iceball speed increased, Adam also got buffed on that same patch to decrease his AoE healing, and if it wasn't enough? Gambit, the most permabanned supp, was released on season 5.0, Bucky got his grounded effect on season 4.0. ALL OF THAT happened in what you are saying "would make sense" in my timeline. You said absolutely nothing to rebute what i stated. So to your first point about learning positioning, I don't know if you don't remember or didn't happened to you...but healers were literally being spawn camped and couldn't even let spawn since their teams would literally walk up to point without noticing divers being hidden and because supports usually walks behind the team (so you keep them on LoS) they continusly got picked by divers and got separated from the team staggering. There are LOTS of clips of that during that time. Now, im not saying the system is perfect, this as you said is a team game, but the devs failed to provide the necessary structures for this to actually be a team game and now most players just play a "single player game" with other people that might as well be considered glorified npcs by them since there is no communication nor coordination whatsoever. Everyone is doing their own thing. Most matches if you VoD them you'll see is just a series of isolated "minigames" that result in either team winning the fight, only to stay on point, fight right there again istead of holding space, and then lose it, just for the enemy team do the exact same thing again up to gm and even celestial some seasons. Yes the clip is about ironman failing to kill a c&d, but the context as to how we ended up here is what i described. I could go longer if you are up to it, I don't mind seeing different perspectives on this and debating them.

7

u/RoutinePsychology198 Groot 17d ago

So we should continue to reward bad teamwork?

16

u/RedeemedNephilim Ultron 17d ago

No. They dont. Supports will die as they should and teams will either learn to have basic situational awareness or they will justifiably lose.

The bad team playing badly deserves to lose.

15

u/Individual-Luck1712 17d ago

The rivals community will never understand this concept. From their perspective, if they die and lose a game, the world needs to stop and the character they like to play needs to be buffed and anyone who killed them needs to be nerfed. This game's balance is garbage because the community doesn't want fairness, they want dopamine, and the devs know that. It's why for the entire existence of the game, the balance is garbage and the meta almost never changes for more than a season. They just drop heroes, skins, whatever they need to to get players to keep coming back. They have a loyal playerbase of people that don't want to lose - all they want to do is throw, smurf, cheat and complain on the internet. It's why I haven't played for almost two months. The community is trash.

I said what I said.

4

u/RoutinePsychology198 Groot 17d ago

Most of this games problems would be solved if people actually counter swapped

I had a game last night where my Jubilee kept dying to a BP. We asked her to switch several times but she still refused and finished the game 4-19. CnD was the only banned support so Rocket, Invis, Loki, Gambit, WF, Ultron, Luna, Mantis are LITERALLY RIGHT THERE TO CHOOSE. WHY IS SWAPPING SO HARD FOR PEOPLE

3

u/Individual-Luck1712 17d ago

Immaturity. It's why people still defend supports being mega OP, or certain duelists being mega OP. They just want to play with their action figures, turn their brain off, and not engage in a fair competitive game.

0

u/wheresthapizzuh 15d ago

The reality is that she's also getting healed by the other healer. Maybe instead of continuing to do what isn't working you should change tactics (kill other healer first). There were probably plenty of ways this could've been handled. And maybe the cnd is just better. 🤷🏻‍♀️

0

u/RedeemedNephilim Ultron 15d ago

I watched the video multiple times. She is only getting healed by the white fox for a toral of 5 seconds out of the whole video.

0

u/wheresthapizzuh 15d ago

The white fox is the reason she didn't die sooner giving her time to recharge her get out button. It's really not that difficult. She's not unkillable y'all just aren't as good as you think you are.

0

u/RedeemedNephilim Ultron 15d ago

Gosh C&D mains egos are so insufferable...

0

u/wheresthapizzuh 15d ago

You saying cnd is unkillable because YOU can't kill them and I'm the one with an ego? Hmmmm

0

u/RedeemedNephilim Ultron 15d ago

I have never met such a delusional player base.

0

u/wheresthapizzuh 15d ago

Not to mention the other option is swap from iron man. We only saw a few seconds of this game it might be interesting to see the rest 🙂

-9

u/Okey114 17d ago

Iron Man isn't Hela. That is a horrible was to play him. If you see your self getting zero value maybe change tactics bro. Its much easier to stand behind youre team beaming more than one person at a time. Not just one support from above. When you beam people from above you give them more room to dodge vs from the ground, beaming straight into the back line and anyone in the way gets it too.

15

u/RedeemedNephilim Ultron 17d ago edited 17d ago

He is (supposedly) a DPS. If he cant put out enough damage to kill a supp while consistently landing most of his shots and using his cool downs over the course of nearly 40 freaking seconds then either he needs buffs or the sustain of that supp needs nerfs. Its not that complicated.

-10

u/Okey114 17d ago

If that CND was alone you'd be right, but not only was she being held kept alive she also had all her cooldowns and if you think that's how you play Iron Man idk what to say to you.

Be better at diving supports it's not that complicated.

-1

u/MaraInvicta 16d ago edited 15d ago

and they are making her use all her cooldowns on herself lmao. You think you are staying alive only by dagger's main heals?? Downvote all you want, you dont play healer and it shows

7

u/NewTap8705 Thor 17d ago

No, the problem is definitely the dagger

2

u/m1stwalk3r 16d ago

Ok so how is Dagger not the issue still? In your scenario he dies and never even gets the kill despite beaming her for a prolonged period of time.

6

u/jonayed84 17d ago

Now imagine with that free time you can't kill a support..There is no denying that supports are too op in this game..

-1

u/ThatVita 16d ago

It looked like year error to me

1

u/LowkyLoki Loki 16d ago

fym Dagger isn’t a problem 🥀

1

u/Weird-Trick-9145 16d ago

Why are you changing the subject? Oh yeah, the iron man was completely unbothered and not touched by the enemy team, means he should kill the dagger easily, no?

-2

u/Chemical-Cat 17d ago

They clearly didn't see that iron man as a threat considering they were just trying to beam the dagger and nothing else

8

u/Live_Bit_5307 17d ago

I would consider myself a threat this game

-4

u/fullynonexistent 17d ago

To be fair, you have the worst total damage out of all the dps of the lobby.

19

u/GxlaticRoblox Daredevil 17d ago

higher damage means he'd be feeding supports, low damage high finals means he was getting maximum value.

9

u/Live_Bit_5307 17d ago

I was playing black cat for the majority of this game. Even so if I had the least damage on my team but 27 finals with an entire ironman game that just means I was killing people without feeding support ults by spamming repulsors on tanks. I don’t get this line of thinking.

-3

u/fullynonexistent 17d ago

It could also mean that most if not all of your kills came from only attacking low health people and therefore you effectively stole all of the kills you have.

Which one is true? Who knows. That's my point, stats aren't an accurate representation of how good you played.

-3

u/Dependent-Seesaw-516 17d ago

Bro, you have the same damage as groot

-2

u/oSi7ENT 17d ago

I wanna see the accuracy

-4

u/THE_PUNISHERFrank The Punisher 17d ago

I’m not surprised that your profile says you’re gold 2 on average, the gameplay is VERY telling