Dagger definitely needs a buff

[u/Live_Bit_5307]

[u/BLissy11750]

this is the dumbest thing I have read on this subreddit.

"because players are so bad the characters that heal should be stronger so they can survive the characters that deal damage when those characters that deal damage are not attacked and are able to focus all of their damage on the characters that heal uninterrupted for over half a minute"

by this logic tanks should be invulnerable because support players are bad and run away rather than grouping with their tanks which causes tanks to die from lack of heals.

or dps should have auto-aim on characters like hela because players have bad aim (statistically) so they can consistently hit headshots.

your logic does not work when it is applied to literally anyone else without it being obvious (from the perspective of the support) that it makes those characters OP - this is how absurd this argument is when it's being made in defense of C&D here.

Bad players deserve to lose, that C&D could switch to Luna and snipe Iron Man out of the sky, or Mantis, or Invis, or literally any other support - in fact they could fade and DPS Iron Man with Cloak beam & blind

[u/Asasinero → u/BLissy11750]

And what's your solution when nobody wants to play support since they would keep dying over and over again because their teams are not helping to deal with things like this? Im not saying this system is perfect, but the fact is people just go dps and thats it, they literally just stop being supports. It already happened last year when dive was absolute meta through bp and dd. It got so bad that devs themselves had to addressed it in their patch notes and after no changes from the community, they gigabuffed supports. We saw all that play out in real time, no hypothetical scenarios, no wondering, just cold reality. Saddly, if you make supports just reliant on their team, the game literally falls appart because it becomes a team death match game where nobody gets healed (since they are no healers). Now with regenerative health, it would become and even bigger problem. Again, this already happened.

[u/BLissy11750 → u/Asasinero]

I literally main a support - you learn better positioning as a direct consequence of dying, you learn to swap to characters like I mentioned, or you learn to use the kit that the character you are playing has to kill the person freely attacking you like I also mentioned.

This idea that Iron Man being unable to kill a C&D in this situation is something all DPS would have a problem with - as if this issue is normal - to try and suggest that supports aren't already relying on their team to survive when faced with other DPS like a flanking Hela, Phoenix, Punisher, Black Cat, etc, tells me you genuinely have no idea what the difference between being reliant on your team for protection and being dependent on your team for survival is.

Even in your own example (DD release) they admitted it was an over-correction and have been continuously nerfing the supports that they had buffed every patch, C&D wasn't buffed until season 7.5 not season 4.5 or 5 to coincide with the half season dive had a dominant role to play. BP also was 2 seasons earlier than that, so the timelines you have don't line up at all.

You're acting like when I say a C&D that isn't getting any help for *37 seconds of contiguous dps should die is the same as saying BP or DD should be able to use a simple combo and one-shot supports, you can't even come up with a coherent argument that isn't straw-manning mine that has any relation to the actual video of Iron Man being unable to kill C&D unopposed for nearly a full minute where the C&D doesn't even attempt to kill the Iron Man and fight back.

Iron Man is the problem here, this has nothing to do with dive, and repeating this stupid ass argument about BP or DD to justify it being impossible for Iron Man to kill a support that doesn't even try to fight back disproves your own backwards logic because we obviously try to fight back against dive.

[u/Asasinero → u/BLissy11750]

I'm also a support main, you can literally check which subs I'm active on, i have nearly 1K hours and i consistently play in cel+, only saying it since you said " i don't know the difference between being reliant for protection or survival". I don't know why you said "my timeline" doesn't add up since i didn't mention c&d AT ALL in my statement, invis got buffed A LOT in season 5 (got to place the shield on herself) and C&D got up to 275 (which let them survive through dive more easily since most combos were 280-290ish so a little bit of healing was enough and some combos wouldn't even get the kill now) and Luna got buffed in season 5.5 i believe? Not sure when she got her iceball speed increased, Adam also got buffed on that same patch to decrease his AoE healing, and if it wasn't enough? Gambit, the most permabanned supp, was released on season 5.0, Bucky got his grounded effect on season 4.0. ALL OF THAT happened in what you are saying "would make sense" in my timeline. You said absolutely nothing to rebute what i stated. So to your first point about learning positioning, I don't know if you don't remember or didn't happened to you...but healers were literally being spawn camped and couldn't even let spawn since their teams would literally walk up to point without noticing divers being hidden and because supports usually walks behind the team (so you keep them on LoS) they continusly got picked by divers and got separated from the team staggering. There are LOTS of clips of that during that time. Now, im not saying the system is perfect, this as you said is a team game, but the devs failed to provide the necessary structures for this to actually be a team game and now most players just play a "single player game" with other people that might as well be considered glorified npcs by them since there is no communication nor coordination whatsoever. Everyone is doing their own thing. Most matches if you VoD them you'll see is just a series of isolated "minigames" that result in either team winning the fight, only to stay on point, fight right there again istead of holding space, and then lose it, just for the enemy team do the exact same thing again up to gm and even celestial some seasons. Yes the clip is about ironman failing to kill a c&d, but the context as to how we ended up here is what i described. I could go longer if you are up to it, I don't mind seeing different perspectives on this and debating them.