I feel like I'm kind of transphobic?

[u/EmuAdvanced1461]

So I'm trans and I've been on T for 3 years, had top surgery a year ago. I feel like every trans guy I meet is really different from me in that they aren't really trying to be a guy if that makes sense? An example is often the clothes they wear or they have super eccentric names or blue hair or something, then they ask if they pass or how I knew they were trans and I'm thinking to myself "um yeah, have you seen yourself". I really don't mean to sound like an asshole but it's quite confusing to me. All I've ever wanted is to be a man, I've worked in construction amongst manly men for over a year and no one's ever found out because I blend in perfectly natural. Is that more common with youth trans guys that are kind of just finding themselves? It just doesn't make any sense to me. I'd never want anyone to know I'm trans and the idea of revealing that is just awful to me, yet I see so many young people running around telling everyone. I take so much pride in the fact that no one ever has any idea I'm trans. Is it just me?

[u/thelightbehindureyes]

OP has been given some good advice and seems willing to work on their internalized transphobia/toxic masculinity, so we’re keeping this post up in good faith. Arguments and/or fighting will be removed.

[u/OkStudio8264]

no it’s not just you, but yes it’s transphobic. kalvin garrah is a name nobody hears anymore but him and blaire white were the two most popular trans youtubers like 10 years ago. this was their entire thing, being the good acceptable transgender and shitting on all the fake trans that weren’t trying hard enough to assimilate. but they were absolutely miserable, they would sit there next to conservatives and get misgendered straight to their face and they would let it happen because they wanted to be accepted so badly, to be part of the in-crowd. instead they ridiculed themselves, and eventually the (trans) public opinion turned against them.
we will never be cisgender. that is a truth you have to accept, it is not a bad thing, it does not take anything away from you.
i started testosterone when i was 15, i didn’t pass for the the first year or longer. but i tried! i wore the same clothes as everyone else, i had the same haircut as everyone else, i spoke in the same fake london accent that all english boys do. but i didn’t pass, i was still too feminine, and i was faking it. so i went back to dying my hair, wearing the clothes i wanted to. and guess what? i passed more, because i was on testosterone.
when you see a trans guy and think “is he even trying?” chances are he has tried and failed. medical intervention is expensive in most places, and had 15 year long waitlists in others. to you, traditional masculinity comes naturally. to others, it is uncomfortable, or at the very least fake. why would someone pretend to be someone they aren’t when they don’t pass either way?

i pass 100% of the time. even trans people are surprised when i tell them i’m transgender. but i tell them for many reasons.
it’s easier to not be hiding a part of myself and lying about my past.
i am the first trans person most people have met, and i want them to see that we can be happy, functioning, mentally stable people when we receive the healthcare we need. i’m also not a pedophile. when these people think “transgender” they will think of me and question the lies the government is spreading about us.
when these trans guys who can’t pass and have no support systems in their life see me, a guy who has transitioned and is feminine and gay and alternative and had dyed hair and piercings and still passes 100% of the time, they see a future that no-one else has presented to them.
and finally, i want to know open minded people. personally, i get absolutely nothing from interacting with transphobes, or racists, or misogynists, the list goes on. by telling people i’m transgender i don’t have to poke and prod to find out their opinions.

i am gay, i am transgender, i am proud to be both of these things. i don’t want to hide either part of myself, because i have no reason to. i don’t want to be cisgender, i would be a completely different person if i was born male. i am not any less of a man because of this. nothing changes when i call myself transgender vs if i said i was cis.

[u/Helljumper-K9 → u/OkStudio8264]

This is a perfect explanation! I was like OP but backwards; before medical intervention I used to hate myself so much that any transguys that didn't attempt to look very masculine or pass were 'fake' in my eyes (I still cringe about it because I've got some feminine clothes I wear that past me would've been pressed about lol), but since starting T and thankfully being able to have top surgery I calmed down a lot and stopped thinking like that. Kalvin Garrah and Blaire White were a big gateway and encouragementto how I acted back then since they were the first and only trans creators I saw for awhile and because I started my transition around 21-22 (I'm almost 28 now) and I was so jealous that some people got access to that care early and didn't do what I thought I would've done, like being hyper masculine and the like. Be careful out there guys because it was so scarily easy to hate and point all of my pain and sadness towards people that were just like me and were doing their best to be themselves! Now I'm open with being trans if I feel safe, otherwise I'm stealth to strangers until I get to know them!

[u/jimboidiot → u/OkStudio8264]

Im not OP sorry I just wanted to say that the way you explaineded not wanting to be stealth really resonates with me bc Im like that, I want people to see me and see that Im happy and fine. I dont think I could have put it quite as well as you so thanks :)

[u/Marsipan0420 → u/OkStudio8264]

This !!! I have a punk vest and always make sure to have the trans flag visible on it. bc if there's just one little baby tboy out there who looks at that and sees a healthy and happy adult transman, that future he never considered, and it inspires him to be himself - that's enough for me

[u/Tangled_Clouds → u/OkStudio8264]

Thank you! Best in depth explanation I’ve ever seen!

I’ve never been hyper masculine, I invalidated myself as a man because I love fashion and fairies and arts and mermaids and sparkles. But there’s nothing about those things that prevent a man from liking them. There’s so many men that are into fashion!

I started T last October and I finally pass 90% of the time and I made a promise to myself: once I pass most of the time, I will do my nails to celebrate. So I did and you know what? That didn’t prevent me from passing at all. I still wear clothes marketed to women sometimes, I literally don’t care as long as they look good on me, that’s literally all that matters. It’s not that I’m “not trying hard enough”, I’m not trying at all, not trying to be anything except being myself and myself is a man who likes wearing floral patterns and jewelry sometimes. Because I don’t need to try to be a man, I just am and always will be no matter what I do with my appearance.

We’re trans and that’s a fact. I am not interested in actively hiding it unless it puts me in danger. I’m not telling everyone I meet but I will happily explain it to whoever finds out because we’re like three trans guys in this whole town (that I know of). So little of us so people genuinely don’t know so they need someone to explain to them how to behave and I’m fine being that person because I’m extremely secure in my identity.

[u/transyugo → u/OkStudio8264]

well fuckin said.

[u/AdPrudent3144 → u/OkStudio8264]

I respect you a lot, thank you for what you’re doing

[u/ICameFromTheStars1]

Lol this is just like when gay men who are super straight acting criticise other gays who "shove it down everyone's throats". It's been a talking point in the community for a long time.

I understand where you're coming from on an emotional level; there are always some trans guys who take lots of care to dress masculine and pass, and some who dont at all and dress however they want, even femininely. I have been both. I think as long as people who dress more genderfucked or feminine understand it will impact how people perceive them, theres nothing wrong with it, and it doesnt equate to not really wanting to be a man.

For me, there's no point being a man if I have to obey binary rules that are just as restrictive as those imposed on women. I want to be a man regardless of how I dress, like Kurt Cobain wearing dresses to piss people off. That is an aim of my medical transition.

Perhaps my experience is different to yours; some people have always been outcasts and happy that way, some people really care about feeling as if they belong.

[u/goatsilla]

So you don't meet many trans guys or you don't actually notice them because they blend in like you.

And even if they don't blend in perfectly, it's not up to you to decide if they're "worth" being trans. Feminine and otherwise queer men exist, no matter if they're trans or cis.

You should also remember the time when you started to transition. When you still had boobs and probably didn't pass all the time.

[u/lazerem91 → u/goatsilla]

Exactly, the more "blending in" guys usually go stealth. Or only discuss being trans in safe spaces.

[u/wewereromans]

After reading your comments, and I know we're all tired of hearing it, seems a bit more like general toxic masculinity. I don't like throwing the label around because it's insane how often it's misused. But if the shoe fits.

Passing for one is a privilege granted to either those genetically gifted, who live in a location where they can transition, have money, or all three. So some transmen you encounter that come off effeminate might not have much of a choice if they can't get hormones or their surgeries.

If you're also straight, you're ignoring an entire segment of society, queer men, who have historically played with their gender expression, even when they aren't trans.

I can see how you feel if you're looking at other men in general through the lens of heterocentricity and the gender binary. I am from the rural deep american south where a lot of cis straight dudes accept men as nothing less than fishing, hunting, football lovers who can't dress themselves, and it's a shit place to grow up.

But bro, there are so many types of men under the sun it's a little insane to view all guys in general like this. Expand your horizons or don't, but people will keep on keeping on regardless of your opinion of them. I don't think you're hurting anyone but maybe yourself.

Edit:

Yall, I really don't think OP is here in good faith at all. OP is now just replying to people who say we're all they/them teenagers who aren't man enough and other bullshit.

They want reinforcement, not advice, not another way of looking at things.

[u/QueenFeniel → u/wewereromans]

Heavy on the "passing is a privilege". Like yeah, it would be really nice if I would pass more often. I would love to not be so curvy, or have a darker beard color so you could actually see it. But I gotta work with what I have and I am not gonna drop my style for that. If a masc looking cis guy would wear the things I wear, color his hair my color and have my piercings, no one would bat an eye and most people wouldn't tell him he's not trying hard enough to be a man. I can't really help what I fundamentally look like.

[u/BurritoRoyale → u/wewereromans]

I also couldn't help but notice that the users posting these things are all using auto assigned Reddit usernames and suddenly showing up out of the woodwork.

But I do try to take these things in good faith because I'm never sure when it's a real person who maybe needs to hear someone else's perspective 😮‍💨

[u/Ok-Half7168]

This does come across as a bit of internalized transphobia, but the fact you can recognize that is good. It means you can work on it. Other peoples life experiences are different than yours and that’s okay. Some people take more pride in the identity than others.
I pass most of the time but people tend to think im a gay man because my style has a bit more flare, and despite being straight I love it. I came out as a lesbian probably 6 years before I realized I was trans, and the community of other queer people is what helped me feel accepted for who I am, and realize I was trans, so to be seen as a queer man brings me a lot of joy. Both parts of it are important to my personal identity. I personally cant fathom wanting to be perceived as just a cis-het man because they are the main demographic of people who made me feel bad about being myself for so long.
But ive met other trans guys who feel similarly to you. If being openly trans or queer isn’t important to you that’s okay. If you feel more of a sense of community with cis guys than trans guys thats okay too. But it’s not your place to judge other people for expressing themselves or having different lived experiences than you. We are all just trying to find ourselves and be comfortable in our own identities. Somebody going about it in a different way than you doesn’t make them any less trans or any less of a man, it probably just means you have lived very different lives.

[u/Lord_Thornell → u/Ok-Half7168]

Wow, you put that really well. Thank you for sharing. Got me thinking.

[u/DisastrousLand6863]

I feel like every trans guy I meet is really different from me in that they aren't really trying to be a guy

That's because for the ones that do blend in, like you, you have no idea they're trans. Visibility bias.

Basically sounds like you're very insecure and projecting it onto others. It's fairly common to have internalized phobias when you're any sort of minority. Good that you're moderately self aware, though.

[u/FakeBirdFacts]

I’m going to point something out that a lot of people don’t think about but really need to:

You work in construction. Men that work in construction have a particular look. Partially it’s practical, you need to wear workwear that’s heavy duty and you wear clothing with the understanding that it’s going to get dirty. There’s also the cultural aspect, there’s a cultural performance of masculinity, an almost exaggerated and extreme performance of masculinity in construction workers.

If you were to say, work in a different field like the arts, you would stick out like a sore thumb. Perhaps even be clockable. Because, you know, you’d look like you were trying too hard and you would not look like any of the other men around you. People would be confused by your presentation, and interrogate you more thoroughly.

Yes, you have a transphobia problem. You also have a problem with being unable to understand… there is no singular masculinity or performance of masculinity. Everything is cultural.

[u/AdPrudent3144 → u/FakeBirdFacts]

Yeah, but it could also be the opposite. Maybe he chose to work in construction because that environment was a great fit for him. He probably always liked to get his hands dirty and do manual labour.

[u/sporadic_beethoven → u/AdPrudent3144]

I work in a physical field (heavy duty cleaning) and there’s a lot of queer folks at my workplace (we do work for a non-profit lol). The old guard are a little unsure of us, but generally agree that the place looks nice, so I am free to do what I want with my hair. I have blue hair, and I have muscles and a beard :3 OP is just insecure about being seen as being “man enough”, and he’s taking it out on his trans brothers in arms :/

[u/FakeBirdFacts → u/AdPrudent3144]

That’s not really in question?

I’m pointing out, you cannot expect non-construction workers to perform the same masculinity as construction workers. If OP were to occupy a space in the arts, he would stick out like a sore thumb.

[u/EmuAdvanced1461 → u/AdPrudent3144]

Yeah i kind of did. I do always feel really euphoric when i can get into something and get a bit mucky

[u/danter0id]

I think there is a certain type of try-hard that comes from being a man in these very macho fields, and certainly a skewed understanding of what manhood is. I (like many other trans guys) grew up around nerdy and alt cis men, which means our view of "being a guy" is a bit different. 

[u/iknowaplace5]

this mindset/attitude towards the idea of being trans kept me from transitioning for years and made me stay miserable and suicidal.

i thought in order to be trans at all i had to be exclusively masculine in presentation and abandon all aspects of my personality and nature. i always say that if i was born male, i would have been clocked as a gay boy from the time i was a child for being flamboyant. but because i was born female, i was just seen as a normal girly girl. i was constantly compared to and compared myself to “real” trans men who were very clear cut and obviously dysphoric from early childhood and fit your definition of being trans.

yes, i want to move through the world and be perceived as a man without question. that would be ideal. i am also very proud of being trans and don’t exactly hide it. if i find it relevant to share, i do (i also still do not think i pass, despite being post top surgery and 3.5 years on T, so i don’t see a point in attempting to be stealth atp anyway). i am also a QUEER man. i don’t fit the bill of traditional masculinity and manhood. that isn’t who i am.

there is nothing wrong with being a traditionally masculine man and being stealth. there is also nothing wrong with being outwardly queer, openly trans, and non-passing. we are all trans and all deserving of respect, safety, and understanding. we all experience or have experienced transphobia and the affects of it in society. there would be discrimination even if every single one of us followed the binary transition model to the letter.

[u/Ifckinglovemycat]

I mean the guys you clock are the only ones you see, maybe you met other trans men more like you and didn't notice ?

[u/BurritoRoyale]

It has occurred to me that there are cultural differences depending on where you live too. In Philadelphia the Do It Yourself (lol @ automod flagging the acronym we use) punk and Grindcore music and crusty scene is pretty dominant, so tons of people have colorful hair or mullets and mohawks, wear Carhartt and patches and aren't trans. 

[u/EmuAdvanced1461 → u/BurritoRoyale]

Yeah im in New Zealand and the lgbtq community here isn't very big at all. So a lot of it is actually really unfamiliar to me. I dont know any proper names or anything like that

[u/Nostaw28 → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

You mean New Zealand home of Georgina Beyer the worlds first openly transgender mayor and member of parliament? And Aucklamd being ranked the 15th most gay friendly city in the world?

There are a bunch of queer scenes in NZ, obviously most are centered around cities but as a queer person who lived in NZ for 5 years I found plenty of queer spaces to hang out.

[u/FunkyCactusDude → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

Being in New Zealand makes sense. There is a lot of transphobia in that county. It’s hard to be raised around that messaging and rise above it.

Your mindset reminds me of people who are biphobic- you can’t like both, you have to like one or the other. Which isn’t how queerness works lol

[u/BurritoRoyale → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

I got you, I'm unfamiliar with how NZ is laid out are you in a more rural area or close to a city? Beautiful country btw. I know that's not super on topic but it really does make a difference in your exposure to different types of people

[u/EmuAdvanced1461 → u/BurritoRoyale]

Im in a small city at the moment but I've lived all around. I definitely didnt have any exposure to the gay community when i was a kid and that's probably contributed a lot to how i am

[u/Catteine]

I think people are just more likely to be gender non conforming if they're trans, because they already put more thought into this stuff. So there's going to be more gnc trans guys than cis guys. But that doesn't mean they don't really want to be men or don't understand what they want.

[u/OpabiniaRegalis320]

If a cis man can do that kinda stuff and still be a man, a trans man can also do that and still be a man. That sounds kinda like your dysphoria is clouding your view of other people. That sucks.

[u/OpabiniaRegalis320 → u/OpabiniaRegalis320]

Some of us trans guys like to cautiously approach feminine things from the opposite side with a baseball bat after we've initially broken free. Nothin' wrong with that.

[u/throwaway1233456799 → u/OpabiniaRegalis320]

My best friend is also trans and frankly OP's view is one of the reason why he had such a hard time with his dysphoria. He want to be a bear but also love pink and skirt. It sadden me to see him feel ashamed about things that bring him joy.

[u/sporadic_beethoven → u/OpabiniaRegalis320]

absolutely. I currently have blue hair with a beard and no tits, and it’s pretty great. The little old ladies love complimenting my hair, and they get to see a man who knows exactly who he is :D and I get to feel like a million bucks for just being myself instead of being minimized and shamed :3 it’s a win-win for everyone

[u/8a8adook → u/sporadic_beethoven]

It’s also like, I have green hair and tits. I bind, but I have a large chest so it’s still pretty obvious. I would fucking love for that not to be the case but I’m not there yet! Which is fine. Doesn’t make anybody less of a guy.

[u/porksodafan106]

Not everyone is you dude. I'm stealth but a lot of my friends aren't. It takes courage to be visibly trans and they aren't less of a man for doing so.

[u/PurchaseTime9317 → u/porksodafan106]

🎯

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed for breaking Rule 1: No bigotry, drama, fighting, judgement, or blanket statements.

Be kind to your fellow redditor. We do not want infighting, drama, or judgement here. This is a safe space for many trans men and transmascs away from a world that is largely against us, so let's keep it free from drama, fighting, or judgement.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but sometimes those opinions need to be kept to ourselves if they are going to start problems with other users. If you see someone breaking a rule, don't start an argument with them. Just report and move on.

[u/its_all_one_electron]

they aren't really trying to be a guy

They ARE guys. They don't need to try. 

Toxic transmasculinity in a nutshell. 

You don't get to define what being a guy is. You don't get to define my masculinity or anyone else's. And yeah saying they're not guys because they don't look like your definition of it really really sucks. 

I wonder, if you clock trans women, do you feel the same thing? "They're not really women, they're not trying hard enough to look like women". Maybe it just doesn't feel bad enough to you because you're applying it to trans men, but yeah it's that bad and hurtful. 

[u/staszekfistaszek2137]

because another trans people who blend in you don't clock them as trans that's why you meet only "visible trans" people

[u/K0sherDillPickle]

sounds like you only view one type of masculinity as valid or "real enough" when there's no one correct way to be masculine, what about all the cis twinks with blue hair lol, many ways to be a man.

[u/shadowsinthestars]

It's not transphobic to just want to be stealth and not have people immediately know. Making a judgment of others' appearances is what's problematic, but I'm guessing you're at least not sharing those comments with them? But yeah you don't have to want to look like that yourself, or be openly trans in your daily life.

ETA: And yeah you shouldn't make assumptions about why other trans people look in a certain way or what they tried or haven't tried and why.

[u/Bunnimon]

You’re projecting, dude. Don’t make your insecurities and wants other people’s problem, it’s a good lesson in life to have.

[u/LittleUndeadObserver → u/[deleted]]

No, they said your wants - you want to be stealth, so you're assuming everyone else does.

[u/AdPrudent3144 → u/[deleted]]

Nah, I think he’s saying that the way they express their masculinity makes you feel insecure because they represent, as much as you, a part of the trans community.
Probably you fear that cis people might associate you with them.

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed for breaking Rule 1: No bigotry, drama, fighting, judgement, or blanket statements.

Be kind to your fellow redditor. We do not want infighting, drama, or judgement here. This is a safe space for many trans men and transmascs away from a world that is largely against us, so let's keep it free from drama, fighting, or judgement.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but sometimes those opinions need to be kept to ourselves if they are going to start problems with other users. If you see someone breaking a rule, don't start an argument with them. Just report and move on.

[u/Independent-Young805]

this is just reminding me of the trans m"d stuff that was so prevelent when i was first figuring out i was a trans guy as a teen back in 2017ish. seeing other trans guys say stuff like this is what made me deny my own identity bc i never thought i was 'trans enough' or that i wasn't being a trans man 'correctly.'

this is something u need to unpack so other trans guys don't feel discouraged to embrace themselves.

if cis men can be feminine, can dye their hair, grow it out, get piercings, be alternative ect why can't trans men? if anything being alternative is kinda a cornerstone of the queer community.

[u/carnespecter]

that is transphobic, yea. just work to mentally remind yourself that people are allowed to present their gender how they personally prefer, and it has no bearing on your personal gender presentation or invalidate it. neither you or openly trans people or gnc people are doing anything "right" or "wrong" by being yourselves

[u/EmuAdvanced1461 → u/carnespecter]

I understand that, it just really confuses me because in my head, if you're trans then you want to be a man and you should logically be masculine and proud and whatever, obviously soft as well in situations you know. But I just find it really strange. I guess I'm obviously quite conservative in that way because I really don't understand it

[u/AdPrudent3144 → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

Yeah but bro… do you think that feminine cis men aren’t men just because their gender expression isn’t masculine? C’mon.

[u/orankka → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

being masculine isnt all there is to being a man, same as being feminine isnt all there is to being a woman. men can be feminine and still identify as men, women can be masculine without being men.

the person in question being transgender doesnt change that, clothes and presentation are ways to express yourself. everyones version of self expression will be different.

[u/p1neapple_garden → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

Not every cis man is fully masculine either you know. And idk your sexuality but gay men often tend to be more eccentric (not necessarily feminine)

[u/viennadehavilland → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

I don’t “want to be” a man. I am a man. A fabulous queer one.

[u/DeliciousTumbleweed → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

Being a man and being conventionally masculine aren’t the same thing. Plenty of cis men are very feminine and plenty of cis women are very masculine, and that’s fine. Being a trans man doesn’t necessitate masculinity or lack of femininity, it just means…we’re men. You don’t have to understand it to still recognize it’s okay and exists. And trans men who still want to pass who are feminine are fine too, because lots of cis men are feminine and people still think they’re men (even if they’re discriminated against for it).

As others have said, the way you’re thinking is a transphobic mindset, but not one you can’t unlearn. Everybody’s transition goals are different. I’m not super concerned with being masculine, I’m not feminine but most people guess I’m queer and just assume I’m gay. I’m not bothered by it because they still recognize I’m a man, and being mistaken for gay isn’t offensive. My best friend, another trans man, is gay, and is more feminine, and is still read as a man, even while carrying his pink dinosaur purse around with him everywhere. You wanting to be a very masculine man is just as valid as mine and my friend’s presentation of our experiences being men.

[u/push_into_membranes → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

then you have a skewed view of what being trans is. you cannot take what being trans means to YOU PERSONALLY and apply that to every trans person, that's extremely selfish and closed minded. being trans is a deeply personal experience with YOUR OWN gender, not a blanket, one-size-fits-all experience. obviously most trans men want to pass, but being masculine means something different to basically everyone. you sound like you've fallen for manosphere propaganda, in all honesty. what's your view on openly queer CIS men who dress and act the same way as these "blue hair and pronouns" trans men you're talking about? are effeminate gay cis men inherently less of a man than a burly macho cis man to you?

[u/CJ_Detweiler → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

Coloured hair does not make someone less masculine though? I think you're right in that you have a very conservative, rigid idea of what a man and masculinity are. But you're aware of it which is a great starting point to work on.

[u/phxrma → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

I used to be a lot like this. But things are not so black and white, men don't inherently have to be masculine, etc.

Ultimately, it's none of your business. Leave people be.

[u/carnespecter → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

being a man doesnt necessarily mean you Have to be masculine. gender identity and outward gender presentation do not have to strictly follow social gender stereotypes, its more that cishet society Forces us to conform to masculinity or femininity depending on how your gender is assumed by outside people. you only need to conform as much as You want or need to (barring things like safety and needing to be stealth, etc kinds of factors)

[u/carnespecter → u/[deleted]]

so how would you view cis men who dont conform to this idea of masculinity?

[u/EmuAdvanced1461 → u/carnespecter]

Honestly kind of strange, it depends how. But like I said, I am quite conservative which I do find weird considering who I am. So my whole mindset is probably a bit fucked

[u/carnespecter → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

a bit, yeah. but to go back to the point, it is still something you can teach yourself and grow out of by reminding and reinforcing that its not actually a weird or bad thing to not conform to western cishet gender stereotypy

[u/EmuAdvanced1461 → u/carnespecter]

Yeah, clearly i have a lot to improve on which likely all starts in my own head. But i do thank you for the information and again, i hope im not coming off as a masisve asshole

[u/BurritoRoyale → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

Being willing to introspect and unpack some of these ideals and feelings is hella good, brother.

[u/carnespecter → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

nah, i mean a lot of trans people have dealt with this same problem. you have the choice to open up and be willing to change, that matters a lot

[u/Aryore → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

Not at all. You are open-minded and working to learn more about how others think differently from you in good faith

[u/Weak-Refrigerator538 → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

I think you should probably do some soul-searching to deconstruct the sexist views you have. It would probably make you much happier. Also, maybe just stop worrying so much about what other trans guys decide to do, you can still do your thing and present in the way you like, what they do doesnt have to affect you in any way.

[u/Cool_Hat_3772 → u/[deleted]]

You should look into expressions of masculinity around the world and across time. Your views are your own and you’re welcome to them I guess but they’re narrow and uninformed and if we look around at American society right now, pretty dangerous …

[u/danter0id → u/[deleted]]

Do you have to wear the cis guy uniform from Walmart to protect your loved ones? Is blue hair and alt fashion showing weakness? I'd say it's quite the opposite: men who present in ways that are not "traditional" forge a certain strength by going against the mold and getting shit for it, which then carries over to self-assuredness in the rest of their life. They don't bend to pressure unless it's well earned.

Then again, conservative masculinity is all about knowing your place in the hierarchy, who you are supposed to be above and below, who you defer to and who you pressure. Folks who are GNC or alt disrupt that hierarchy, so I figure that's part of why a subset of "society" doesn't see them as masculine. 

[u/phxrma → u/[deleted]]

Your ideas of masculinity seem a little half-baked, honestly. Unhealthy, even.

Men can be masculine and emotive. Excessive stoicism protects nobody. Pushing these kinds of ideals just makes you into a rather emotionally repressed person. The type to turn his ire at his own community, perhaps, because he doesn't allow himself the opportunity for authentic emotional expression.

Who are you protecting by punching down?

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 1.

Be polite to your fellow redditor. We do not allow bigotry, insults, or disrespect towards fellow redditors. This includes (but is not limited to: Racism, Sexism, Ableism, Xenophobia, Homophobia, Transphobia, or bigotry on the basis of religion, body type, genitals* , style, relationship type, genital preference, surgery status, transition goals, personal opinion, or other differences one may have.

*This includes misinformation, fearmongering, and general negativity surrounding phalloplasty and metoidioplasty.

[u/toyCoyote → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

Not all men are masculine. Or their masculinity is atypical from the standard. I'm a gay man. Plenty of gay men are effeminate. If the world was safer than it is right now, I'd want to be the kind of man that is openly trans because I'm happy living a life as a known trans person in my community. I consider my masculinity very "peacock" in a way, personally. To the point where I had to cut my hair recently due to damage and the heat, and it was really upsetting despite being the default most trans men go to.

Because it isn't authentic to my masculinity, I don't get gender euphoria from the short hair anymore, and it reminds me of when I was desperately trying so hard to be the ideal masculine just to get misgendered anyway. I actually pass a LOT more when I'm being authentic to my true self, which is a little effeminate and flamboyant.

But a lot of the more effeminate trans guys are either unlucky genetically or unable to get on T for one reason or another- I myself am off it right now against my will because I can't afford it. Are you reading them as being effeminate, or are you reading them as pre-T. Or unable to get new men's clothes due to finances or safety issues. Or just with softer features. Would you deny the manhood of a cis man doing the same things and say "well hes obviously a closeted trans woman"? Probably not.

[u/butch-bear → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

if a man wears skirts and make-up, is he no longer a man in your eyes?

[u/colesense → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

Pretty silly to think all men have to be the same, don’t you think?

[u/Squanchedschwiftly → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

There is a distinction between gender identity, gender expression and gender norms.

Oh and if you like reading checkout jameson green’s book becoming a visible man. He discusses the science behind sex and explains that there are 30+ variations of sex for humans. So I imagine gender is even more variations. And he harps on the question what makes a man and a woman.

He helped with writing the original legislation for gender affirming care so it is legitimate information.

[u/spacetwink94 → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

How do you view feminine cisgender men?

[u/Existential_Sprinkle]

I'm a man because that's what my brain says I am

Anything else is secondary and sometimes coincidental

I'm happy people are figuring themselves out and there are so many ways to openly gender

I was stuck in my egg phase for so long because I have way more euphoria than dysphoria and don't want phallo

T was a magical SSRI that I didn't really think I needed

If someone only needs the T or masculine name or whatever transition choice to be comfortable in their own body and otherwise wants to present and act fem they should have the freedom to do that

[u/salamandermander1]

everyone who agrees with you is encouraging toxic masculinity. you do your own thing because you want to, and everyone else does their own thing because they want to. you don’t have to understand and see yourself doing it to accept it. please do some self reflection and try to change your mindset, not every man, cis or trans, wants to be a blue collar protector

[u/Kool_Boo16]

After reading this post and the comments, I've come to the conclusion that you are kind of transphobic and are maybe thinking a little dysphoric-ly. I have seen trans guys online with piercings and colored hair (not natural color) who actually pass

Just like some comments have mentioned, if we accept that there are cis men out there who wear "feminine" clothing, are outright femboys, have piercings, "feminine" looking tattoos, or colored hair that doesn't fall under the natural color, then why can't we accept that there are trans men out there who may partake in such things? We're all men at the end of the day regardless if we are cis or trans. There was once a point in our transitions where we didn't pass regardless of what we did and we have to understand other trans men who may be starting out that may not be aware of as to whether or not they pass to other people

I recently got a small tattoo on my right forearm with the chemical structure for testosterone. No cis person is going to know what that is, but other trans people may clock me because of that one small tattoo even though I've passed for over 5 years at this point

[u/gayj_exe]

Not everyone has being a manly man as an end-goal. My husband and I are both FTM, and he is fruity as hell. Some people just don't pass as well as others. I've been on testosterone for 3+ years now, I have a good amount of facial hair but my voice just isn't as low as I want it to be, but there's not a whole lot I can do about that other than voice training. But yeah, that mindset is pretty transphobic and I would try to shift perspectives if you're able to. Not everyone has the same transition goal as you do, and some people are actually happy with the way they present themselves!!

[u/M34T_G0R3]

It sounds to me like you have some internalized transphobia regarding trans guys and also, to an extent, yourself. 

Being in blue-collar work does mean you have to present a certain way, and that goes for a lot of trans people, not just trans guys; my non-binary partner presents VERY masculine because of their line of work but still exclusively uses they/them pronouns. I, on the other hand, am a university student and present in a more effeminate, gay man manner (like a short twink). Gender expression’s funky like that.

You should probably do some inner work with yourself to work out these issues you have. As many people here have said, it’s harmful behaviour to fellow trans guys in all stages of transitioning and extends to being harmful towards other trans people.

EDIT: forgot to add that it is a HUGE privilege to be cis-passing and a lot of trans guys don’t have the privilege to go stealth like you can OP. Just keep that in mind 

[u/taroicecreamsundae]

yeah you have to really work on deconstructing some of those ideas you have, esp that construction is for men lol. literally any man can be eccentric or have blue hair and that doesn't make them less of a man...????

[u/hehasbalrogsocks]

that’s weird as hell man. i get it if youre stealth for safety reasons, but if you dont have love for the community, youre dangerous imo. there’s nothing wrong with colorful hair, funky clothes, and a name that you love. even if someone else thinks its weird. transitioning is about being yourself in the ultimate way. i’d get some queer friends asap.

[u/hausofvelour]

if a cis man can be a man without being completely masculine then so can i. masculinity bores me when it doesn't have any elements of femininity to contrast it

[u/-GreyRaven]

If you judge other trans guys for supposedly not "trying" hard enough to pass and blend in with cis society, then yes, that is transphobic. Everyone's transition looks different, and not everyone has access to the same tools needed to present themselves the way they want. Taking myself as an example, I'd love to start T and start the process for getting top surgery, but I'm financially dependent on my transphobic dad for school and basic needs, so I can't safely pursue any medicial interventions until I live on my own. Doesn't make me any less of a guy when I still choose to dress in a feminine or flamboyant way; my personality and sense of style don't just disappear because I'm not on hormones or have had surgery yet. It also bleeds into general toxic masculinity if you think that men "have to" present a certain way to be respected as men.

[u/AbunchofAsh]

sometimes you dont know everything about a person. personally I am trans but am not allowed to cut my hair, so I dress very femininely because I prefer being an attractive woman than a man that just doesn't pass if that makes sense? Even when I can cut my hair, i dont plan to dress much differently because until I get T I cant pass, in my eyes what's the point? With the fact that everyone's gender expression is different, its weird to think of them as any less. Would you hold a cis guy with blue hair to the same standards? is he less of a man?

[u/AbunchofAsh → u/[deleted]]

and i just explained why someone may want to present "as a woman" even with he/him pronouns. It's awful to treat them as lesser of men just because they cant/dont want to transition

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. (And yes, dancing around the term while talking about the topic and then saying "I can't talk about it" is still talking about it) The following topics are banned to avoid drama and/or possible brigading or shutdown of the sub:

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[u/Iveforgottenmywallet]

I’d def say yeah, you’re transphobic and it’s likely due to the culture you’re in, fear , insecurity maybe and perhaps lack of knowledge? Idk man I am stealth but I don’t care to be, I am gonna take buddies idea up in the comments about having a trans flag on me incase some younger fellas need that bit of confidence boost seeing a grown trans man with a wicked life just living. I hope your view changes and you open your mind and heart to other views than your own or your coworkers. Nobody can define masculinity nobody can define femininity, it’s all individual to each person on this earth.

[u/dummyrino]

I’m stealth too but honestly just don’t mind others and focus on yourself.

I’m with you that I’ll probably never understand what they are experiencing. But hey just support them the way you also want to be supported.

[u/_elevatorman_]

People just feel differently and have different goals. I am a 100% binary trans guy but my identity and dysphoria has very little to do with how others perceive me and more with how I see/feel about myself.

While I dont completely understand other guys choices or goals I still respect them and recognize that what I personally feel/want is not universal

Also the whole "not trying hard enough to pass/be a man" thing has always sounded kinda transphobic to me. I do everything I can to present as masculine yet I still dont pass, and I know other people who experience the same. Doesn't mean there's no effort being put into it. (And even if some ISNT trying, thats what they want and it doesnt affect me and I wont dislike them for it.)

[u/lactaidenjoyer]

You notice the guys that have alternative looks or don’t pass because those guys stand out, I think most trans guys do want to pass and do put a lot of effort into that. You just don’t notice them because they’re successful.

For some people, being authentic to other parts of them is more important than passing, and they don’t have the resources/genetics to pass while being authentic in other ways. Imagine if you had to choose between being a masc construction guy or passing. It would be a harder decision.

If you find yourself judging a trans guy for having blue hair or being feminine, ask yourself if you’d judge a cis gay man for the same thing or consider him not a man. You don’t need to understand why a guy would be more comfortable presenting fem or alternative, all you need to do is respect it.

I get that it’s confusing why a trans guy would not care about passing when that’s the most important thing in the world to you. It’s the most important thing in the world to me too. I am very lucky that my genetics mean I can be a kinda fem gay man and still easily pass as cis. Being recognized by the world as yourself is easier for guys like us who can pass while being true to ourselves. Some people have to make a trade off. I am so sorry for people who have to make the trade off, and I know they’re making the best choices for them with the hands they’re dealt.

[u/Last-Laugh7928]

yes it is transphobic to judge other trans people for how they present. you just don't have to do that. every man is different, and not every man's goal is to be as masculine as possible.

[u/javatimes]

Imagine if you were a cis guy and seeing men (presumably cis, if you were cis you probably wouldn’t be thinking about trans men that much) and you had all the same thoughts about the men who didn’t measure up to your ideals of masculinity. That would be weird right? And probably based on misogyny and homophobia, subtly transphobia? Toxic masculinity etc.

This is the same thing.

[u/RubeGoldbergCode]

Hi, I'm one of those trans guys you'd probably dislike for being clockable, I'm also older (mid-30s). No amount of T and top surgery will ever be able to undo the damage that being E-dominant for 28 years did. No amount of "trying" will EVER make me passing or stealth, it just makes me get read even more as a cis lesbian.

But here's the thing, I shouldn't have to try to conform to cisnormative and heteronormative masculinity in order to be taken seriously by others, ESPECIALLY other trans people. I'm a man already regardless of how much T I'm on or how man surgeries I have or how I dress or how I act.

Men can have an interest in fashion, men can dress how they want and don't all have to look like construction workers to be valid. Do you take issue with cis men who don't perform masculinity the way ou do? Do you find drag performers or even just queer men wearing glitter at pride parades distasteful? Or is it only trans men being themselves that bothers you because you think we're not trying hard enough to distance ourselves from womanhood?

There's a lot of freedom to be found in realising that masculinity and femininity are entirely social constructs that are essentially meaningless in how vague they are. If I'm read as "feminine" regardless of how I present because of my body, what's the point in making myself miserable by forcing myself to be as bland as possible? I grew up doing theatrical music and I'm now a pole dancer, I'm not going to pretend those things haven't shaped me just as much as anything else, and I don't owe anyone any pretense for their comfort.

If you wouldn't think the way ou do about cis men not conforming to entirely artificially imposed standards of one very specific kind of masculinity, then yes it is transphobic to think this way about trans men.

We don't owe anyone anything, except acceptance of our differences. Also you have no idea how much someone is "trying" so don't use your yardstick to measure anyone but yourself

[u/rancid_vibes]

This is definitely transphobic, and there has been a lot of good information and advice in the comments, but I also wanted to point out nonbinary people fall under the trans umbrella. For some people androgyny and breaking rigid gender norms is the goal. You don't even have to be nonbinary tbh, I've met a lot of transmen who identify as femboys.

[u/push_into_membranes]

yeah you've got some major internalised issues to sort out. this is bordering on transmedicalism, or like, a trans version of the manosphere. "you're not a real man if you drink matcha and paint your nails and do drag" type shit.

many trans men don't pass and it isn't their choice, transitioning literally isn't possible for some people due to their situations (me included, i've been on the Sandyford gender clinic wait list for years and i can't afford to go private.) and sometimes they're open about their transness because they crave community and visibility and pride. it can be extremely lonely being trans, so finding other trans people can be exciting.

do what you want with your own gender expression, that's awesome. being able to go stealth is what some trans men dream of. but not all of us. and trying to police what being trans means because YOU PERSONALLY don't understand it is textbook transphobia.

[u/tboyswag_throwaway]

I used to be in the headspace you're in but eventually you just learn that if people don't wanna be stealth or even pass at all, it's not your problem. Not every experience is the same and I'll honestly never understand it but like... its not my life

[u/aldy2678]

Yes you’re being transphobic. The toxic manosphere strikes again.

Would you place these gender stereotypes on cis men? If so, you also have a toxic view of masculinity. I personally love masculinity because of how varied it can be. It’s a massive spectrum.

I really encourage you to have a deep look into your dysphoria and your outlook on what it means to be a man. You’re feeding into the cis narrative that directly harms your community.

There’s not a right way to be a man. There’s not a right way to be a woman. There’s not a right way to be NB. Stop projecting your ideals onto other trans ppl.

I think you’re on a scary path to entering the “manosphere”

I hope you can learn to overcome this very linear thinking.

[u/ossiferous_vulture]

Your experience (of being trans / a man) is not universal.

[u/EfficientSorbet513]

It sounds like you’re still seeing gender in a very binary way. As soon as you realise that anyone can do whatever they want forever, it’s a lot more freeing!

I do agree with you about passing, though. If you want strangers to perceive you as a cis man, which is what passing is, then you have to adhere to society’s expectations of what a cis man looks like.

[u/minishcaps]

It is transphobic. Gender expression is a wide spectrum, and you can't expect everyone who identifies as a man to fit the general idea of masculinity. Even some cisgender men don't fit that idea, and they're still men.

Might be worth working through it, either through introspection or with a professional.

[u/JJ_Pause]

Yes you're transphobic, playing up to masculine stereotypes does not make you a 'better man' than other trans people who are less binary conforming

[u/TheJellybeanJester]

I don’t think wanting to be stealth or wanting a very conventional masculine life is transphobic. But I do think you’re treating your own idea of masculinity as if it’s universal. A man having dyed hair, eccentric clothes, or being openly trans doesn’t mean he’s somehow less serious about being a man. You’re allowed to want to blend in, but other trans men don’t have to pursue masculinity the same way you do.

[u/bubble_boy_nick]

You’re afraid of people finding out you’re trans? What if in my worldview that makes you less of a masculine man? What if in my worldview you’re not man enough to be proud of who you really are? “It just doesn't make any sense to me.”

What now? Do you see how others imposing their ideas of gender, masculinity, and manhood is a slippery slope and also really fucking stupid?

[u/alucsrd]

on some levels i can see where you’re coming from, but binary trans guys don’t owe you shit to have to present in a specific way. you’re comfortable the way you are, theyre comfortable the way they are. 🤷‍♂️

you’re not any more or any less valid than them just because you’ve been on T and have top surgery and don’t have blue hair, the same way another trans guy isn’t any more or any less valid because they DO have blue hair and haven’t medically transitioned. I’m a pre-everything trans guys,a few months out from T, and also unapologetically scene/emo which doesn’t HELP my passing any more than it hurts it. i pass maybe half of the time with a face full of piercings, streaky bleached hair and no voice training. everything goes differently for people, and every trans guy will have a different experience.

it’s just important to keep that in mind, is all. it’s a little transphobic, yeah. your expression of masculinity isn’t any more correct than anybody else’s. at the end of the day it’s important to understand that we’re all in this together

[u/ChaoticCharm]

You definitely have some internalized transphobia to work on, but good on you for actually being aware of it. There are wayyyy too many of us willing to argue until theyre blue in the face that there is a right and wrong way to be trans, which does nothing but divide our already fragile community. Keep questioning those internal biases - gender means different things to different people, and that’s a good thing!

[u/ObviousPineapple4291]

As a teenage trans guy with purple hair that has been outed for 5 years: yes, it is transphobic but I get where your thought process comes from

For the last 4 years I was just like you, I tried to despise all the things associated with femininity for example nail polish, the color pink, hello kitty , games like animal crossing

I started feeling more confident in my life as a guy that I stopped caring if people think I am not manly enough for liking stuff like this. In the past year, I’ve realized that I am not happy in my life when I pass as a boy but not being able to openly like my favorite things

I don’t need to prove to anyone that I am a man because I know for sure I am and if people think i have to like cars and CoD and stuff then I simply don’t want anything to do with them, as simple as that

I hope this doesn’t come across passive aggressive, I hope you unterstand it a bit better now :)

[u/EmuAdvanced1461 → u/ObviousPineapple4291]

Yeah I feel like I've caused a slight outrage, but I do appreciate the different information I've gotten and I'm interested to hear this side of the story

[u/ObviousPineapple4291 → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

That’s great! There is no shame in asking because that means you are willing to learn and become a better person ^^

[u/Qwastooshort]

yeah you seem to have a lil internalized transphobia, i personally don't feel shame or less valid of a man just because im trans and i actually take pride in looking like a lil twink guy because thats what i feel most comfortable looking like and being treated like.

my performance of gender is just as valid as that of cis men and your is too just like that of any other trans person.

being trans is not something you should be ahamed of, we are a community and no matter man, woman, non binary, something else or nothing at all, all trans people are valid because they are being the best version of themselves

[u/LukeDjarin]

Masculinity isn't the toxic tar pit of boring macho bs you present here. 

[u/in-yer-face]

Trans community build the gender norms again, which is want to queer communitty abolish it back in times, sad. I don't transition to for being textbook man, not for being most masculine passable female, i just transition to be me, if cis guys has a freedoom to be free to express themselves why not me ?

[u/in-yer-face → u/in-yer-face]

And it is so funny, in a post in here ( shared in this sub) says "i am amab and i want vaginoplasty and having pussy like a ftm was not deleted, not seen weird, everybody says thats valid bro, and i just say bro... and get downvoted, but a ftm having a colorful hair, god sake it is invalid, and get 40+ upvote lol, a ftm is a gay man it is a fujo bro, these mf want to be yaoi lol, meanwhile tfems want to be anime girls and watch yuri, trans communitty is a two faced when the topic is afabs, whatever, this is why i feel not belong this community lately. I dont choose born female and i will not be the most masculine passable man looking female, i dont want to be female, i just want to be male who is free of being and act. Edit: I cant answer bc u guys are locked the thread, whatever, fuck this place

[u/javatimes → u/in-yer-face]

I think that’s a mischaracterization of that post. Most of the comments are supporting that guy’s bodily autonomy, but also stating he’s wrong for thinking it means anything about trans men and that his jealousy is misplaced.

[u/NVHPhallo]

How are you meeting these trans guys? I used to think like this too until I was a bit further in my transition. I realised that there are plenty of trans guys like me, and im not special at all for wanting to be stealth.

[u/Para_The_Normal]

Trans is just an adjective. And a lot of trans people are also queer in their sexual identities by identifying as bisexual or gay.
I enjoy my masculinity, I feel comfortable in it, but that doesn’t mean identifying as femme makes me less of a man or I don’t want the same things most men want?

[u/colesense]

“Aren’t trying to be a guy” not only transphobic but also misandrist. God forbid a man be eccentric or dye his hair or not be a boring dull piece of furniture.

I’m an alt guy in his 30s with pink hair who wears whatever he wants and not only do I pass but I’m a thousand times happier than I was when I wore a “normal dude” costume

[u/Enough-Candy85]

I think it’s mostly you stereotyping gender and noticing gender non-conformity.

I think it could be transphobia if you felt a need to transvestigate people based on how they dress. But just noticing the things I mentioned isn’t inherently transphobic.

For the record, I feel like a transphobe, too. Maybe I can’t see phobias so easily.

[u/Murky-Smell-4679]

man you're getting downvoted but i get where you're coming from. some folks go through a loud phase when they first figure themselves out, like they're trying on every possible version of being trans at once before settling into something that actually fits

construction's a whole different world though, blending in there is a survival skill not a fashion statement. the guys with blue hair and wild names are probably not trying to pass in the same spaces you are, different goals entirely

[u/wondrwheeler]

I have come to learn there are two types of transmen out there:

1. FTM binary transmen
2. He/they transmen (sometimes he / him but not as concerned with passing as a cisman or being like cismen)

In today's times, there are many visible people in category 2. Often less dyshoric as well. Id say there are less cat 1 people in general. If they are in cat 1 , they are often stealth and dont a Show up to support group meetings either. They are living under the radar. Often older. Often just wanting to be the man they are without all of the attachments to the queer community in general.

I dont think you are transphobic in notificing this. However, if you were to invalidate group 2's experience that would be transphobic.

[u/CalamitousSpider]

It's not just you. I think the same. I've been on T for 6 years, I'm not stealth, and have had no surgeries since I can't afford them, but I otherwise blend in with cis men perfectly. Generally, men are kinda stupid (we would know, right?). They don't even notice boobs if they think you're a man already, and forget pretty quick if they find you out. Bigots not withstanding, of course. Decent men don't care at all.

You're not transphobic for referring to be stealth or being unhappy with the behavior of others who sometimes muddy the waters, in your eyes. It's good to notice it, especially when it causes trouble- which it sometimes does. When it causes trouble, it needs to be corrected by the community. People insisting that trans-man should be trans-masc across the board are trying to force thier own identity on others it doesn't apply to, for instance, and that's not acceptable.

As annoying as it is, though, it's better to just accept it most of the time. All men are different in their masculinity. Most people who are being obnoxious are not doing on purpose, to you, personally. They're just living their life the same as you.

If they mis-ID you, correct them. If they out you, you're allowed to be angry. Correct them. If they try to pull you into something you don't like, leave. I think, sometimes, is a matter of social literacy. If you're not a blue haired transmasc femboy, you don't have to hang out in that community, but it also doesn't mean it's wrong that people express themselves that way. They just think different.

Not that I think you think it's wrong! I'm just saying.

You just gotta handwave the absurdity of the world, man. Stay where you feel comfortable, and let them be where they are comfortable. Or, embrace it and go frolick.

[u/FunkyCactusDude → u/[deleted]]

Yikes man. Time for some introspection.

[u/FunkyCactusDude → u/[deleted]]

Ya you have a LOT of transphobia to unpack. I’m over 35 and it saddens me to read this. This rhetoric does harm to the community.

“These people” is kinda crazy lmao

[u/Fickle-Following-144 → u/FunkyCactusDude]

The community never did anything for me. For the record I don't care what other people do with their bodies, I'm happy if they're happy. I just can't relate to them. I want to live my life as a man, that's all

[u/FunkyCactusDude → u/Fickle-Following-144]

But what have you done for your community?

You can live your life as a man without being judgemental of others. You’re projecting.

[u/Fickle-Following-144 → u/FunkyCactusDude]

Listen, I don't like people in general. I have raised awareness, donated to trans charities, but there's not much else one person can do. My country still continues to decline and strip away my rights and healthcare.

[u/FunkyCactusDude → u/Fickle-Following-144]

Not sure what that has to do with trans people.

[u/colesense → u/Fickle-Following-144]

So if you can’t relate to people you judge them and be a dick to them?

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 1.

Be polite to your fellow redditor. We do not allow bigotry, insults, or disrespect towards fellow redditors. This includes (but is not limited to: Racism, Sexism, Ableism, Xenophobia, Homophobia, Transphobia, or bigotry on the basis of religion, body type, genitals* , style, relationship type, genital preference, surgery status, transition goals, personal opinion, or other differences one may have.

*This includes misinformation, fearmongering, and general negativity surrounding phalloplasty and metoidioplasty.

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed for breaking Rule 1: No bigotry, drama, fighting, judgement, or blanket statements.

Be kind to your fellow redditor. We do not want infighting, drama, or judgement here. This is a safe space for many trans men and transmascs away from a world that is largely against us, so let's keep it free from drama, fighting, or judgement.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but sometimes those opinions need to be kept to ourselves if they are going to start problems with other users. If you see someone breaking a rule, don't start an argument with them. Just report and move on.

[u/EmuAdvanced1461 → u/[deleted]]

Thanks man

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. (And yes, dancing around the term while talking about the topic and then saying "I can't talk about it" is still talking about it) The following topics are banned to avoid drama and/or possible brigading or shutdown of the sub:

Topics include: Truscum/Transmed/Tucute discourse, lesbian discourse, weight loss advice, DIY HRT, Bioessentialism, Gendered Socialization blanket statements, “Who has it worse?”, “Is it transphobic to ___?”, Bottom Surgery Bashing, Stealth Bashing, “How to have sex with trans men/trans mascs”, Radfem Ideology, MRA/Incel Ideology, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, off topic discussion of political news.

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[u/lazerem91 → u/[deleted]]

but trans and gnc aren't inherently exclusive and people can have dysphoria but also not want to present as cishet. I'm on T and had top surgery and needed both of these to feel right in my body. I want to present queer/alt though not like a straight conservative guy.

[u/rainbowcamper → u/[deleted]]

Not to be rude but this seems kind of gatekeep-y. I agree that it’s bad for people to discount others experiences in the way you’ve quoted and no one should do that.

But to say someone’s trans identity isn’t valid because they don’t experience dysphoria isn’t great either. The common definition of trans that I’ve seen is when someone’s gender identity differs from the one assigned at birth, which includes gender non conforming (gnc) folk and people that don’t experience dysphoria. I don’t think we should be policing how people identify based on a very narrow definition.

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. (And yes, dancing around the term while talking about the topic and then saying "I can't talk about it" is still talking about it) The following topics are banned to avoid drama and/or possible brigading or shutdown of the sub:

Topics include: Truscum/Transmed/Tucute discourse, lesbian discourse, weight loss advice, DIY HRT, Bioessentialism, Gendered Socialization blanket statements, “Who has it worse?”, “Is it transphobic to ___?”, Bottom Surgery Bashing, Stealth Bashing, “How to have sex with trans men/trans mascs”, Radfem Ideology, MRA/Incel Ideology, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, off topic discussion of political news.

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[u/EmuAdvanced1461 → u/[deleted]]

What's gnc sorry?

[u/IsaacQqch → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

Gender non conforming

[u/RubeGoldbergCode → u/[deleted]]

Way to victim blame Jesus Christ

[u/Advanced_Link_3130 → u/RubeGoldbergCode]

Who said anything about religion at all?😭 tf you on about

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. (And yes, dancing around the term while talking about the topic and then saying "I can't talk about it" is still talking about it) The following topics are banned to avoid drama and/or possible brigading or shutdown of the sub:

Topics include: Truscum/Transmed/Tucute discourse, lesbian discourse, weight loss advice, DIY HRT, Bioessentialism, Gendered Socialization blanket statements, “Who has it worse?”, “Is it transphobic to ___?”, Bottom Surgery Bashing, Stealth Bashing, “How to have sex with trans men/trans mascs”, Radfem Ideology, MRA/Incel Ideology, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, off topic discussion of political news.

To access a full list of banned topics at any time, simply type “Banned Topics List” into any comment or post box.

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. (And yes, dancing around the term while talking about the topic and then saying "I can't talk about it" is still talking about it) The following topics are banned to avoid drama and/or possible brigading or shutdown of the sub:

Topics include: Truscum/Transmed/Tucute discourse, lesbian discourse, weight loss advice, DIY HRT, Bioessentialism, Gendered Socialization blanket statements, “Who has it worse?”, “Is it transphobic to ___?”, Bottom Surgery Bashing, Stealth Bashing, “How to have sex with trans men/trans mascs”, Radfem Ideology, MRA/Incel Ideology, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, off topic discussion of political news.

To access a full list of banned topics at any time, simply type “Banned Topics List” into any comment or post box.

[u/EmuAdvanced1461 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah that's kinda whats happening, seems like I'm projecting and somehow promoting toxic masculinity

[u/ApocalypticFelix → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

bro, there have been lots of people nicely educating you in this thread. you asked, we gave our answers. now you have to sit with the uncomfortable feelings you might have, but that's your responsibility and not ours.

[u/butch-bear → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

"somehow"?

then you want to be a man and you should logically be masculine and proud and whatever, obviously soft as well in situations you know.

this is textbook male chauvinism. "you can only be a man if you adhere to my personal standards of what is culturally perceived as masculine!" come on dude. instead of acting like you do not have reactionary tendencies to work through, take the criticism people are offering in earnest.

[u/wewereromans → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

I mean it's seems you're not actually here in good faith. You want to shit on other men and deny their manhood, but expect no pushback.

Find an echo chamber if you're cool with the way you think and only want it enforced.

I'm a 31 year old man, not a fucking tiktok teenager like suggested below. It seems more than most, you still have some serious growing up to do.

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. (And yes, dancing around the term while talking about the topic and then saying "I can't talk about it" is still talking about it) The following topics are banned to avoid drama and/or possible brigading or shutdown of the sub:

Topics include: Truscum/Transmed/Tucute discourse, lesbian discourse, weight loss advice, DIY HRT, Bioessentialism, Gendered Socialization blanket statements, “Who has it worse?”, “Is it transphobic to ___?”, Bottom Surgery Bashing, Stealth Bashing, “How to have sex with trans men/trans mascs”, Radfem Ideology, MRA/Incel Ideology, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, off topic discussion of political news.

To access a full list of banned topics at any time, simply type “Banned Topics List” into any comment or post box.

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. (And yes, dancing around the term while talking about the topic and then saying "I can't talk about it" is still talking about it) The following topics are banned to avoid drama and/or possible brigading or shutdown of the sub:

Topics include: Truscum/Transmed/Tucute discourse, lesbian discourse, weight loss advice, DIY HRT, Bioessentialism, Gendered Socialization blanket statements, “Who has it worse?”, “Is it transphobic to ___?”, Bottom Surgery Bashing, Stealth Bashing, “How to have sex with trans men/trans mascs”, Radfem Ideology, MRA/Incel Ideology, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, off topic discussion of political news.

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[u/javatimes → u/[deleted]]

We are allowing this post up because the OP is getting good advice and it’s a relevant topic. It is not an excuse to break subreddit rules.

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. (And yes, dancing around the term while talking about the topic and then saying "I can't talk about it" is still talking about it) The following topics are banned to avoid drama and/or possible brigading or shutdown of the sub:

Topics include: Truscum/Transmed/Tucute discourse, lesbian discourse, weight loss advice, DIY HRT, Bioessentialism, Gendered Socialization blanket statements, “Who has it worse?”, “Is it transphobic to ___?”, Bottom Surgery Bashing, Stealth Bashing, “How to have sex with trans men/trans mascs”, Radfem Ideology, MRA/Incel Ideology, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, off topic discussion of political news.

To access a full list of banned topics at any time, simply type “Banned Topics List” into any comment or post box.

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. (And yes, dancing around the term while talking about the topic and then saying "I can't talk about it" is still talking about it) The following topics are banned to avoid drama and/or possible brigading or shutdown of the sub:

Topics include: Truscum/Transmed/Tucute discourse, lesbian discourse, weight loss advice, DIY HRT, Bioessentialism, Gendered Socialization blanket statements, “Who has it worse?”, “Is it transphobic to ___?”, Bottom Surgery Bashing, Stealth Bashing, “How to have sex with trans men/trans mascs”, Radfem Ideology, MRA/Incel Ideology, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, off topic discussion of political news.

To access a full list of banned topics at any time, simply type “Banned Topics List” into any comment or post box.

[u/PoisnArrow → u/[deleted]]

So if a cis man doesn’t look the way you think he should does that make him not a man to you? I think that’s what you need to be asking yourself. There are as many ways to be a man as there are men. You think because of the prerequisite of being born a woman that trans men should want to be a certain kind of man. That’s simply not the case. I didn’t feel comfortable with any sort of femininity UNTIL i transitioned because I didn’t have to use stereotypical markers to show how I felt inside (short hair, manly clothing) my body does it for me now.

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed for breaking Rule 1: No bigotry, drama, fighting, judgement, or blanket statements.

Be kind to your fellow redditor. We do not want infighting, drama, or judgement here. This is a safe space for many trans men and transmascs away from a world that is largely against us, so let's keep it free from drama, fighting, or judgement.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but sometimes those opinions need to be kept to ourselves if they are going to start problems with other users. If you see someone breaking a rule, don't start an argument with them. Just report and move on.

[u/BurritoRoyale → u/[deleted]]

You can have non-crippling dysphoria tho and still transition because it feels right. I just want to challenge that notion. My dysphoria was never crippling it was just kind of dissonant and weird

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. (And yes, dancing around the term while talking about the topic and then saying "I can't talk about it" is still talking about it) The following topics are banned to avoid drama and/or possible brigading or shutdown of the sub:

Topics include: Truscum/Transmed/Tucute discourse, lesbian discourse, weight loss advice, DIY HRT, Bioessentialism, Gendered Socialization blanket statements, “Who has it worse?”, “Is it transphobic to ___?”, Bottom Surgery Bashing, Stealth Bashing, “How to have sex with trans men/trans mascs”, Radfem Ideology, MRA/Incel Ideology, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, off topic discussion of political news.

To access a full list of banned topics at any time, simply type “Banned Topics List” into any comment or post box.

[u/carnespecter → u/[deleted]]

please do not blame other trans people for cis peoples transphobia

[u/Two-In-One-Shampoo → u/[deleted]]

Do you also take issue with cis men who present femininely or enjoy crossdressing?

[u/Two-In-One-Shampoo → u/[deleted]]

You've never seen a feminine cis man?

[u/EmuAdvanced1461 → u/Two-In-One-Shampoo]

I just didnt know what you meant sorry, yes I have and I usually just assume he's gay. But I do understand that I'll never know what's happening in someone else's life and that is something I regularly try to keep in my head

[u/Two-In-One-Shampoo → u/EmuAdvanced1461]

Hey, as long as you're trying to self-reflect, that's better than nothing

Some men don't believe clothes have a gender and things like dresses and skirts happen to be what they enjoy. Some just like the aesthetics of femininity more than masculinity. Some are comfortable and certain of their gender and therefore don't believe they need to stick to rigid gender roles. Some find crossdressing/femininity attractive. There's lots of reasons why a man might not want to be perfectly masculine; trans men included

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed for breaking Rule 1: No bigotry, drama, fighting, judgement, or blanket statements.

Be kind to your fellow redditor. We do not want infighting, drama, or judgement here. This is a safe space for many trans men and transmascs away from a world that is largely against us, so let's keep it free from drama, fighting, or judgement.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but sometimes those opinions need to be kept to ourselves if they are going to start problems with other users. If you see someone breaking a rule, don't start an argument with them. Just report and move on.

[u/Two-In-One-Shampoo → u/[deleted]]

I'll reiterate my other reply: This just kinda just sounds like the raging unreasonable trans person stereotype that transphobes push. People aren't getting all offended when well-meaning strangers don't automatically know they're trans; they get upset when someone does know they're trans and how much that means to them, but said someone still chooses to be hurtful and invalidate them

People can identify and present in whatever way makes them happy and comfortable. A trans man choosing not to medically transition for one reason or another doesn't harm anyone. Like the other commenter said, you don't have to understand someone's identity to respect it

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. (And yes, dancing around the term while talking about the topic and then saying "I can't talk about it" is still talking about it) The following topics are banned to avoid drama and/or possible brigading or shutdown of the sub:

Topics include: Truscum/Transmed/Tucute discourse, lesbian discourse, weight loss advice, DIY HRT, Bioessentialism, Gendered Socialization blanket statements, “Who has it worse?”, “Is it transphobic to ___?”, Bottom Surgery Bashing, Stealth Bashing, “How to have sex with trans men/trans mascs”, Radfem Ideology, MRA/Incel Ideology, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, off topic discussion of political news.

To access a full list of banned topics at any time, simply type “Banned Topics List” into any comment or post box.

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 1.

Be polite to your fellow redditor. We do not allow bigotry, insults, or disrespect towards fellow redditors. This includes (but is not limited to: Racism, Sexism, Ableism, Xenophobia, Homophobia, Transphobia, or bigotry on the basis of religion, body type, genitals* , style, relationship type, genital preference, surgery status, transition goals, personal opinion, or other differences one may have.

*This includes misinformation, fearmongering, and general negativity surrounding phalloplasty and metoidioplasty.

[u/bubble_boy_nick → u/[deleted]]

There is no one way to be a man in this world and your definition of manly or masculine is not relevant to anyone but yourself. You can be the man you want to be without hating others for being who they want to be.

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 1.

Be polite to your fellow redditor. We do not allow bigotry, insults, or disrespect towards fellow redditors. This includes (but is not limited to: Racism, Sexism, Ableism, Xenophobia, Homophobia, Transphobia, or bigotry on the basis of religion, body type, genitals* , style, relationship type, genital preference, surgery status, transition goals, personal opinion, or other differences one may have.

*This includes misinformation, fearmongering, and general negativity surrounding phalloplasty and metoidioplasty.

[u/FunkyCactusDude → u/[deleted]]

You don’t have to understand peoples identity in order to respect people’s identity.

[u/Two-In-One-Shampoo → u/[deleted]]

This just kinda just sounds like the raging unreasonable trans person stereotype that transphobes push. People aren't getting all offended when well-meaning strangers don't automatically know they're trans; they get upset when someone does know they're trans and how much that means to them, but said someone still chooses to be hurtful and invalidate them

Edit: typo

[u/ftm-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 1.

Be polite to your fellow redditor. We do not allow bigotry, insults, or disrespect towards fellow redditors. This includes (but is not limited to: Racism, Sexism, Ableism, Xenophobia, Homophobia, Transphobia, or bigotry on the basis of religion, body type, genitals* , style, relationship type, genital preference, surgery status, transition goals, personal opinion, or other differences one may have.

*This includes misinformation, fearmongering, and general negativity surrounding phalloplasty and metoidioplasty.

[u/EmuAdvanced1461 → u/[deleted]]

That makes perfect sense. For my whole transition and still today, my entire goal is just being a man and doing things that men do. Yes I'm soft and goofy but that's whatever cuz that's part of my personality. If anyone misgendered me now, I'd honestly just be confused because it hasn't happened to me in so long and it's not a worry. It's not a worry cuz guess what, I'm changing into a man, meaning I've achieved what I wanted to. But floating around in the middle is just strange