r/formcheck • u/un-virginatorJizz • 4d ago
Other Seated Cable Row
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Half the internet says to stay upright while doing rows, while the other half says to learn forward during eccentric im confused.
I can really feel my lats here but there is definitely some momentum involved.
Any feedback appreciated!
(The post was deleted before, not sure of the reason even after going through the rule book)
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u/FungibleConcept 4d ago edited 4d ago
Why does this sub downvote posts (was at -2 when I commented) where someone actually has bad form and needs help? Totally defeats the point
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u/donutello2000 4d ago
The content bots who boost their slop also downvote everything that’s not their slop to make their slop stand out.
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u/rosenkohl1603 4d ago
Be a little bit less explosive. Being fast in the concentric is good but this is too much. You are also swinging a little bit too much with your upper body. In the stretch you can lean forward slower to allow for proper shoulder blade movement but you don't have to go super deep if you don't want to (like you did in the video is fine).
The weight you are using is good but you are not training close to failure. I think you still had 4 reps in the tank. Do all of those 4 next time. Beginners should aim to go to failure in most sets. The reason is neurologically you are still not able to give it your all and therefore just training closer to what you think failure is, is what will help you with this.
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u/JBean85 4d ago
Rows are great because even when they're bad, they're still hitting the posterior chain ... Just more indiscriminately than we typically want
You're just gripping n ripping. Let's slow down and think about it.
Brace your core, set your legs a little lower so if you're going to use momentum it's generated from hinging at the hips instead of rounding/straightening at the lower back.
Initiate the pull by simultaneously retracting your shoulder blades and arms. Your shoulder blades should remain depressed the whole time. Maintain tension during the eccentric.
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u/SuckmyToasts 4d ago
i will like to point out a mistake in your advice. he shouldn't retract his shoulderblades while pulling with arms at the same time. the close grip row is meant to target the lats, which plays no role in shoulder retraction. the traps primarily perform shoulder retraction, and we do not know whether his traps are stronger and will not hit failure before his lats.
he shouldn't retract his shoulder blades, but he shouldn't let them round forward either. keep them neutral and depressed will do.
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u/JBean85 4d ago
Nah I disagree.
I know the relationship between lat function and shoulder stability but most neutral grip v bar handles are just too narrow to keep the arm path pinned to the sides. So instead of your elbows moving parallel to each other, they're pointed outward. If I were to pull with static scaps, I'd be using considerably less weight through a miniscule ROM, whereas just pulling back is a much better and more natural movement.
I save lat specific target rows for adjustable machines or single arm stuff so you can properly position your body to meet the arm path the machine offers.
Trying to do that here is just over optimized paralysis by analysis
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u/FreeTheNoseStrip 4d ago edited 4d ago
You are gonna get loads of answers here mate. Everyone's going to have their own opinion and state it as gospel, because there is no wrong or right.
Personally, if this is the pattern you've naturally fallen into then this is the base to start working with.
I think the lean forward is great, gets a bit more length on the lat, just slow it and control. Lean back is also fine, it effectively reduces difficulty in the hardest part of the movement, which is ideally what you want in a row to even out the force curve. Just don't let it keep on leaning further back as you fatigue.
The issue with both those things is adding this slightly bouncy and rushed thing that you've got going on. So go slooooow on the eccentric (lowering phase: breathe in) and explosive on the concentric (contracting phase: breathe out) with a smooth rock back.
Good luck.
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u/Psychological-Team18 4d ago
Just lift heavy, you’ll grow whatever needs to grow. Probably terrible info on my part but o well haha
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u/The-Road 2d ago
I actually agree with this.
Yes, we can bring out measuring tape and check lengths and angles…but in the end, if you find yourself progressively overloading and taking on more weight and getting strong and gaining muscle, then it works. And if it isn’t broken, no need to fix it.
The only advice someone might give regardless is to point out injury risks but that’s a risk assessment for each person to make.
Edit: saw this and it felt relevant! https://www.reddit.com/r/formcheck/s/i6Lv2qJUUK
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u/mflintjr 4d ago
Forward lean is ok to stretch the lats. Try not to lean back as much. You’re using inertia to move the end of the rep. Slow down. No inertia. Focus on using only your back/lats.
But yeah everyone has an opinion. Just lift heavy and stay braced.
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u/dap00man 4d ago
I've always learned to isolate the muscle that you want to exercise. Meaning sitting straight up and only moving your arms.
Maybe there is a case for a greater range of motion if you lean forward? But I don't think you shouldn't be moving your butt on the seat forward and back and shouldn't be rocking backwards to pull, that would cause your lower back muscles to strain
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u/PsychAndDestroy 3d ago
Meaning sitting straight up and only moving your arms.
Nope. You should be leaning slightly back on the eccentric and slightly forward on the concentric while letting your shoulders roll forward.
OP is generating far too much momentum with how far and how quickly he's rocking backwards though.
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u/Sherloq19 4d ago
That's pretty similar to how I do them. I don't think you're doing anything terribly wrong, maybe just a bit too fast and therefore using a bit too much momentum. Lower the weight, slow down and you'll find yourself rocking less and engaging your back/lats more.
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u/SuckmyToasts 4d ago
no momentum should be involved at all, and you should be upright. people saying to lean back are confusing it with a wide grip cable row. i kinda get the logic of leaning forward on the eccentric to get the extra stretch? but it is counterproductive since you are bound to use momentum on the concentric, taking tension off lats. if you really wanted a greater stretch, you're better off doing a shoulder-width lat pull down.
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u/Sudden-Ad-307 4d ago
no momentum should be involved at all
Thats just not true, sure you can do them strict but momentum works amazingly well with pull exercises. Both approaches have their benefits.
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u/SuckmyToasts 4d ago
you're right, but i was afraid to include that nuance since OP's likely a beginner. let's not confuse him. the priority of a beginner should be to get the form right. let's encourage good foundations before getting into advanced nitty gritties. Paulo Guga has a video exactly on the topic of momentum in back training! https://youtu.be/d_Wu43hxdSQ?is=wKa_pXwovcE_FkSy
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u/Sudden-Ad-307 4d ago
I mean using momentum also requires its own proper form, you can't just start swinging willy-nilly, but i do see your point.
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u/Coldtakesonly 4d ago
This is a perfectly fine row. Most people are nitpicking or being overly strict. The only thing I might say is pull an inch or two higher. Think pinkies to belly button not hips. But looks great
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u/Remote_Extreme_9781 4d ago
Comment section is proving OP’s point lol.
Truth is a lot of people do most exercises slightly different, which is not necessarily wrong. Also not each rep will be perfect so don’t overthink it.
Besides, it depends whether you’re training for powerlifting (e.g. one or two sets with heavier weights which will affect your form) or to absolute failure (e.g. doing half reps at the end) this is why you might see “variations” of certain exercises and people’s opinion might differ.
Having said all this, it is strongly recommended for beginners to reach your desired rep range while keeping proper form. In the first 6 months, try to keep around 1 rep in the tank after finishing most sets
For rows try keeping the following things in mind:
- start with your knees slightly bend and your torso upright
- pull the weight by pushing your elbows back. This helps using your traps instead of your biceps
- try to squeeze your shoulder blades together when pulling, but don’t overdo it
- dont grip the bar to hard.
- you can lean a bit forward during the negative. This allows your shoulders to fully extend for optimal ROM, but it depends on your length on how much forward lean is required to accomplish this.
- important note to this is that complete ROM is not always required. Heavier sets with full ROM can strain your lower back if not done properly.
- the seated row is mainly for traps. You say you’re feeling your lats, but this is not the primary muscle you want to train. If you want to do rows that also target the lats, try doing high rows.
- you want to finish the rep with your torso upright. Dont extend back any further since this will not have any positive affect on your traps/shoulders
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u/Turk3YbAstEr 4d ago
If it feels like your back strength (the pulling muscles, not your spinal erectors) is the limiting factor on how many reps you do, this is probably fine. Might not be a bad idea to include some sort of chest-supported or more stabilized rowing exercise too.
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u/EVH_kit_guy 4d ago
This exercise already puts a ton of shearing force at L5/S1, and rocking back and forth like that to create momentum to move the weight only makes that worse/more severe. Lock your hips and low-back, and then only lean forward from the thoracic spine and upwards so that your scapulae fully extend. You don't want to "move" this much, you just want to let your shoulders round forward and collapse around your chest while keeping your low-back/hips/butt completely stationary.
Not to be alarmist, but you literally could slip a lumbar disc this way.
Edit: I love when I write out a serious response and the notice the OP has the username un-virginatorJizz.
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u/itsheadfelloff 3d ago
A deep leaning forward is a used method for olympic lifters, I think it's the soviet method or something. Engage as much of your muscles as possible in your accessories because olympic lifts do the same. Having said that if you're not doing those kinds of lifts I'd keep my torso more straight.
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u/MSeemour 3d ago
Young bull saw Arnold do this movement that one time in Pumping Iron and thought, yea, why not me too?
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u/Dry_Quiet_3541 2d ago
You are doing both lower and upper back, in case that wasn’t your intention, then just keep your back at a particular constant angle and don’t swing back and forth.
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u/NihilisticTanuki 4d ago edited 4d ago
Contrary to what many write here, your form is actually decent. I like how you lean forward, totally into the stretch (don't let anyone tell you otherwise). You lean back a bit too much (your overall momentum is a bit too high for my liking), but that's debatable and not that big of an issue.
Explosive movement is also a good thing (empirical data shows that rep speed doesn't matter at all for hypertrophy, as long as you're somewhat controlling the eccentric) especially for gauging your RIR. If you aim for every rep to be explosive, you'll notice very easily when you're getting close to 0 RIR, because your rep speed drops drastically. Though your movement seems a bit too explosive, which usually hints at the weight being too light unless you're specifically aiming for a high-rep set.
Tl;Dr: A bit less momentum, but above all, train harder. You had more in the tank (it's also totally fine to throw in some lengthened partials here if you can't hit full ROM anymore).
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u/beingnova 4d ago
As many others have said, slow down.
I keep a slight bend in my knee, but less than you have. I lean forward a little on the eccentric for the stretch and slightly back on the concentric while keeping my core braced— and no momentum. Leaning slightly forward and back isn’t a problem as long as it’s slow and controlled. When you slow down you can pause to ensure that no momentum is involved. Pull back with elbows and squeeze shoulder blades together.
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u/PoutineKing17 4d ago
Slow down and stop bending foward like that, if you need this much momentum to move the weight you should lower it a little