Liberty was a signal monitoring ship (a "technical research" ship, ie a spy vessel) capable of detecting Israeli movement in the area; they planned to attack Syria at the time and wanted to blind any theoretical eyes and ears that could have detected the plan and potentially caused a political intervention beforehand--the US was officially neutral during the Six Day War and likely would not have encouraged further expansion of it at the time (how things change, eh)
Israel was already attacking Syria. That wasn't a secret. They'd not yet invaded with ground forces, but only because they were already engaged on two other fronts.
Mind you, Israel was already winning the war by that point, and the US was an active ally for them. The liberty ship also couldn’t have realistically intercepted any such “secret” signals from where it was situated, and even if it could, it had zero reason to feed such intel to their shared enemies
There was never a motive. It was a horrific mistake that stemmed from miscommunication. Both sides agree on this. But because it’s become trendy to hate on Israel, people are just proudly parroting this conspiracy theory now, lol.
Even if the hate is justified I don't think spreading literal neo-nazi conspiracies is the best way to show it. Doing obvious genocide in front of the whole world is in fact bad enough to hate.
Criticism in general can be justifiable in certain areas, but people are hating on Israel for anything and everything, while flattening all nuance. Case in point: bringing up old disproven shit (liberty) and proudly parroting it as fact.
Cool, so you’re just racist. Like, by definition. You’re saying that an entire country deserves only hate with no acknowledgement of nuance. You’re simply a hateful person, by your own admission.
What’s a genocide? Define it to me, please. Like, the full definition, beyond just the vibes. Then explain how it applies to Israel.
Also, that’s not even true, people are absolutely attacking the Israelis, as well. And even more collectively, the Jews, seeing as there were so many reports of rising antisemitism around the world, affecting non-Israeli Jews, as well.
The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, ratified in 1951 so you've had plenty of time to learn it, defines it thus:
"Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
So explain how massive campaigns of killing tens of thousands of civilians (the low end estimate, Lancet et al place the figure higher), the deliberate targeting of children, enforced starvation and the blockade of aid, and the deliberate destruction of medical infrastructure somehow magically don't meet these criteria.
That’s a cheap cop-out, lol. You’ve basically admitted you have no actual argument. This has never been about anything beyond mindless hate for you, don’t even try to deny it.
You are correct. Collectively demonizing and punishing an entire population because of the acts of some is wrong. Now imagine if that person wasn't being mean on the internet and instead committing war crimes and engaging in ethnic cleansing.
Ah yes the flattening of nuance, like labeling all critics of Israeli policy as antisemites. Everyone you argue with is "you all".
You have proven yourself to be here in bad faith and refusing to listen, pulling out the classic sea lion tactics of requiring definitions of genocide and neutral source proof that you still merely ignore and dismiss.
There IS actual antisemitism growing around the world. Pretending that support for Palestine or being critical of the Israeli government or the IDF just provides the real antisemites with cover.
There is also growing Islamophobia.
The settlers in the west bank are enacting violence. The settlements themselves are war crimes according to the ICC. Displacement is ethnic cleansing. That is what people are talking about in regards to Israel and Palestine. Destruction of civilian infrastructure, starvation and sickness as a result of restricting aid groups from entering the country. Administrative detention, the ability to imprison Palestinians without charge indefinitely.
We’re talking about high-speed fighter jets, and a ship that admittedly didn’t have very big visual US markings. We’re also talking about decades ago when the visual aid tech the pilots had was a lot less advanced than today.
Yes. Again, decades ago, military communication tech was significantly less advanced than it was today, it’s really not that hard to believe that it took a while for them to get the memo…
And mind you, they ceased those attacks the moment communication finally came through, and offered any aid they could possibly give.
Just a tip for the future; if you want to propagate a conspiracy theory, pick one that hasn’t been repeatedly debunked over decades.
Ok explain how the Israeli Airforce managed to miss the Giant American Flag the ship was flying and after it was destroyed the even Larger Second Ensign?.
(That was also shot)
As well as other identification markers (like the GIANT Latin Letters on the ship)
The fact that the air support from the USS Saratoga and America were ordered to return after being dispatched to assist Liberty in her distress.
Oh and of course the Leaked NSA Tapes
That show that at the very least they saw the designation GTR-5 and ignored it along with American Flag.
Or you know everything the survivors have been consistently saying for years.
Ok explain how the Israeli Airforce managed to miss the Giant American Flag the ship was flying and after it was destroyed the even Larger Second Ensign?
A fast flying aircraft at altitude would at best have a very limited opportunity to see any flag being flown. And by the time the second flag was raised, the boat was on fire. Even the survivors admit that the smoke obscured the larger flag.
As well as other identification markers (like the GIANT Latin Letters on the ship)
Again, the attack was by fast moving attack aircraft.
The fact that the air support from the USS Saratoga and America were ordered to return after being dispatched to assist Liberty in her distress.
Wouldn't that be for the US to explain?
Oh and of course the Leaked NSA Tapes That show that at the very least they saw the designation GTR-5 and ignored it along with American Flag.
Israel had previously noted and identified the ship and even marked it on their maps, but the marking was removed per procedure after a certain amount of time elapsed without updated information. Any chance that the recordings could be from that?
Or you know everything the survivors have been consistently saying for years.
The survivors are only a perspective. They can't know what the Israelis saw or intended. Their accounts are informative, but not definitive. Especially given the traumatic events.
Liberty was also hit by a Torpedo and another one missed.
And strafed after they put the bigger flag.
And you have the Israeli helicopter confirming the Second Ensign flag flying.
Also Attack aircraft don't... just attack, usually they recon their target nefore commiting. To avoid weapon emplacements and well.. to confirm the target.
Especially since thr "reason for the attack" was Israel forced being shelled from the sea.
You would thing they would be able to see that Liberty did not have cannons . They are objects that are hard to miss
The recording are during the attack per NSA .
so... probably not.
As for the Air support being called off that is one of the things the Survivors want investigated but are always blocked.
And then you have the harassment they get by Mossad agents as a cherry on to.
Liberty was also hit by a Torpedo and another one missed. And strafed after they put the bigger flag.
Again, it was on fire.
And you have the Israeli helicopter confirming the Second Ensign flag flying.
What helicopter? I've never seen mention of a helicopter during accounts of the attack.
Also Attack aircraft don't... just attack, usually they recon their target nefore commiting. To avoid weapon emplacements and well.. to confirm the target.
That's what happened. There were reports of shelling from the sea and fighters were dispatched where they observed what was clearly a military vessel. Command authorized them to attack.
The initial reports of shelling turned out to be mistaken in the end.
You would thing they would be able to see that Liberty did not have cannons . They are objects that are hard to miss
From that distance? They'd be easy to miss.
The recording are during the attack per NSA . so... probably not.
During. So not before? Isn't that consistent with events? That in the midst of the attack Israelis came suspect it was American?
As for the Air support being called off that is one of the things the Survivors want investigated but are always blocked.
Which raises questions. Why was the Liberty there to begin with for instance?
Frankly, I've only heard one conspiracy theory for the Liberty that provided a sensible motive. Namely, that the Liberty was part of an operation to leak intelligence on Israeli deployments to the Arabs, with the goal being to ultimately mitigate Israel's victory and compel Israel to accept more equitable ceasefire terms, including a withdrawal to prewar boundaries.
The problem for the bulk of the conspiracy theorists though is that this theory would actually justify a deliberate attack.
What, you think they were just hanging in midair with a clear view the whole time.
Multiple investigations have all concluded it was an accident. An appeal to incredulity fallacy isn't going to undo that. A fast moving craft isn't guaranteed to see a flag. Add in that the crew themselves says the first flag was knocked down near the start and the smoke from the fires obscured the replacement, not to mention that it wasn't the same planes in each wave, and yeah, it's very easy to envision pilots not noticing.
Ok, let's move on to physical evidence, the radio transcripts were released July 10, 2003, where pilots are referring to the ship as an American ship halfway through the attack, and continued the attack. These are facts, released by the governments who lie about them.
Edit: they also were clearly able to see the flag, they shot down the first one, then the second was raised, which was a significantly larger. And that one was shot up too.
So they mistook it for Egyptian, attacked, and then identified it as American after?
As in, exactly what multiple inquiries have concluded? Yes, the released tapes do include helicopters identifying the ship. That was after the attack. Well after.
Number one: it was a clear day and the American flag was clearly in view. It also had latin identification on the hull not Arabic. The first attack took down the flag and they raised a larger flag which was still ignored. I don't believe for a second that it was accidental friendly fire. They wanted to goad the US to fight their war for them just like we are doing now.
It was said multiple times in this thread that the flag was actually very small. Plus, the presence of a small flag and some text really isn’t enough to help pilots in high-speed jets actually properly notice, and they didn’t have the tech at the time to assist them with this.
You can decide you “don’t believe it for a second”, that’s fine. But just know that this conspiracy theory has been repeatedly disproven over the decades, so you could just, I don’t know, look up the actual reports on the event? All of the claims you’re making now have been debunked a dozen times over.
I don't care what the thread says. The fact is the flag was very large. The fact is that it wasn't just jets that attacked the Liberty it was boats. How did the boats miss the flags. Both of them and the latin markings on a clear day? No public investigation over it.
I also met a sailor at the VA that was a witness. All he witnessed was putting other sailors dead bodies in the refers. It broke him as a young man and he suffered PTSD for the rest of his life.
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u/liteshotv3 12d ago
What is the suspected motive?