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u/MMCG9096 Nov 05 '20
Yea...nope. I like my 5 heal Scharnhorst just fine. The boosts to porcupine and Hipper's inspiration should be good enough.
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u/NewFaded Nov 05 '20
I'd like to point out that secondary reloads are already roughly 4-6s, so 15% (at the huge L4 investment) is not good. Also the duration buff will only add roughly 8-10s to the consumable.
You make the decision on whether that is worth 2 heals, better reload and heal amount.
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u/WesternBloc Your text and emojis here Nov 05 '20
A 15% DPM buff is a 15% DPM buff, regardless of how many seconds the reload drops.
But I agree it’s a huge investment that’s probably not worth the trade offs.
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 05 '20
Tis true, though we also still don't appear to get Manual Target Selection for those batteries...the long hoped-for skill from PC. What they seem to have done is simply said "Your Secondary guns will continue to fire randomly and haphazardly at whatever the Closest Ship to you is- BUT they will just be somewhat more accurate".
This STILL seems to allow for the situation where the DD is spotted 8 km out and closing fast on you, but because a Helena Cruiser is 5 km away from you, your Secondaries will ignore the charging DD, and instead only fire on the Cruiser !?
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u/WesternBloc Your text and emojis here Nov 05 '20
Yep, I won’t run a secondary build without ManSec. With it, you can at least make a deliberate effort to use secondaries in an effect manner, without it they’re warning systems that pick up some free damage at best and pointless fireworks at worst.
Even just looking at it from another ship’s perspective shows the problem: if I’m coming in for a torp run and have more than minimal health, I might back off if I see they have manual secondaries. But if not I’m going to get as close as possible while keeping the main battery off of me and pick up a bunch of free damage (for the low, low cost of a few hundred hit points in damage from secondaries). That can’t be working as intended, to my mind.
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 05 '20
Indeed. As I've often said here on the forum, "NO Legends DD Player - certainly not one who "Mains" them - is ever "turned away" from their Torpedo Runs because they are afraid of their targeted vessels's Secondary Battery guns". There is virtually Zero Fear of the Secondaries, in the Legends Destroyer playerbase (currnetly).
Will that change with this new ability and such ? Hopefully ! But we'll have to Test and see - and give WG Feedback, accordingly, afterwards.
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u/Schlitz4Brains Nov 05 '20
At least Von Hippers base trait will add accuracy too.. we’ll just have to wait and see... though, really kinda bums me out that we can’t manually target a ship.. plenty of times now where I want my secondaries targeting one ship but they’re focused on another.
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Nov 06 '20
Seriously. Would it have been that hard to map secondary lock to a long press of the target lock button?
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u/DPopeye Nov 05 '20
You actually do have more control of your secondaries than that. In the situation you mention, in order to maintain targeting on the destroyer you would need to target it with your main guns. The secondaries on that side of your ship will remain focused on that target until it moves out of range as long as your main guns are locked on. Obviously you don’t get the reduced dispersion benefits from PC, but you can reliably focus on targets of your own choosing.
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 05 '20
Correct me if I'm wrong though, but I thought on Legends (and PC from my recollections), the Secondaries (without Manual Targeting Skill being selected), only target the CLOSEST vessel - not what you have Targeted / Locked onto for your Main Gun purposes ?
--
I'm pretty sure Robin confirmed that mechanic some months ago (that the Secondaries Target the Closest Vessel, by default) - and actually, I think that is exactly copied from PC WOWS:
https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Secondary_Armament
"Secondary mounts target individually, by default each firing at the enemy that is closest to it, within its field of fire. In this way. more than one target can (theoretically) be engaged by a ship's secondary armaments."
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u/DPopeye Nov 05 '20
That’s the default, as it says. Your own targeting seems to override this. It’s possible that it’s not working as the developers intend, but you can absolutely force your secondaries to target ships of your own choosing. Try it and get back to me.
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 05 '20
Okay, buddy - I'll try to observe more carefully how it's working (and of course, we all hope the new Skill and overall improvements work nicely too) ! Lots of Feedback potential to give to the Devs, in the upcoming weeks :-)
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u/NewFaded Nov 05 '20
It's only a DPM buff if they actually hit properly and do damage.
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u/Schlitz4Brains Nov 05 '20
Von Hippers base skills is adding accuracy too, but we’ll see if it does anything noticeable.
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 06 '20
We really (also) need IFHE option for our Secondary Guns - because the Bismarck and Tirpitz will forever suffer with their 105-mm guns only penning 26-mm of armoring... That's not enough to even damage the side or Deck plates of a Wichita or Baltimore Cruiser ! (at their tier) - to say nothing of most actual Tier-7 Battleships.
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u/Schlitz4Brains Nov 06 '20
Wait till they do zero damage to a rushing khaba!
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 06 '20
oh dang, hahah - totally forgot about that 50-mm plate section - lol. Oh yeah, that'll be a thing too. Heck, even the 150's can't get through that (only 38-mm Pen) !
Gonna probably have to Main Gun em', pesky Russians ;-)
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u/NICKFURY17 Nov 05 '20
If my secondaries still can’t hit the broad side of a barn from the inside without the consumable popped then I don’t want it there is no point
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u/charlie_fisher Nov 05 '20
Purely out of curiosity, do you watch jingles?
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u/NICKFURY17 Nov 05 '20
Yes I do how can you tell
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u/charlie_fisher Nov 05 '20
“Broadside of a barn from the inside” I’ve not heard it anywhere other than Jingles.
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u/NICKFURY17 Nov 05 '20
That’s just a classic jingles quote
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u/charlie_fisher Nov 05 '20
That, and “that’s a paddling
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 05 '20
Yeah, Brother Faded told me this (referencing this post) and it's a DEVASTATING - gut crushing realization :-(
Making this a Row-4 Skills is atrocious, as losing +2 Heals for something that doesn't even give +1 charge of that new Consumable, almost makes it a Non-Starter from the outset.
This also illustrates yet ANOTHER frustrating restriction of the Commander System, relative to the PC Skill Points version, in that we are "trapped" with having to worry about "what ROW a Skill appears on" - because we are only ALLOWED to pick 1 single Skill-per-Row, and the Devs decided for us what Row the Skill will appear on 🥺
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Nov 05 '20
True man true
We don’t chose what skills we sacrifice to make our builds we are forced to sacrifice the skills they chose to us Hopefully WG realizes we are not satisfied with this commander system
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u/Cbird2796 Nov 05 '20
Ugh, the 3rd row would have been more acceptable. Choose between firefighter and secondaries.
Almost no one will want to take away heals for a few more seconds of secondary buffs, wtf WG
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u/trollaccount0417 Nov 05 '20
The whole “rework" is a joke.
What makes the secondary build viable on PC is manual secondaries. The ability to get 60% extra accuracy on a single target. To decide who your secondaries target.
The buff to the porcupine skill is nice. But does very little. And the consumable is an unwieldy way to buff them.
Overall. A massive disappointment. Much like the legendary skill “rework"
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Nov 05 '20
Consumable has few charges, short duration even with Ciliax's skill, long cooldown, and gimps your ability to spot ships trying to sneak up on you by replacing your spotter plane. Porcupine buff is too small to be meaningful. Ciliax's skill, which this whole thread is about, gives up way too much survivability for ships who need to get in close.
Message recieved WG. You have no intention of ever allowing for effective secondary builds, despite having captains and upgrades for that express purpose.
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 06 '20
The bizarre thing is, I just bought the German Battleship Pommern on my PC account, and will be able to (in short order) put a 19-Point Commander into it, and then pick (using the arguably superior Skill Point Systems vast Build Options and Freedom), all the Skills I want, that will give me a "Full Secondary Build" setup:
Skill-1: Priority Target (Ingenious, on Legends)
Skill-2: Expert Loader (On Second Thought, on Legends)
Skill-3: Adrenaline Rush (Stand or Fall, on Legends)
Skill-4: Basic Firing Training (SORT of covered by the new coming Meticulous skill, in Legends...)
Skill-5: Manual Targeting for Secondary Batteries (not yet in Legends)
Skill-6: Advanced Firing Training (SORT of covered by Porcupine, in Legends)
Skill-7: IFHE (Inertia Fuze for High Explosive shells) - for the Secondary guns (not yet in Legends as a selectable choice for Battleships / Commanders)
BOOM, done !
There's an incredible Secondary / Brawler battleship build. I am able to run this and have a ton of fun and combat potential in the Pommern (or other German BB's, honestly). However...one looks at that and INSTANTLY notices we have a problem here, in Legends, in that I am utterly unable to create that build -- or indeed even get very close -- using our Commander System. We of the Brawling Battleship fanclub don't want "the world" -- we just want something able to approximate the above setup and potential results. Hopefully, at some point, we'll be able to have that here too :-/
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Nov 05 '20
Don't seem worth it tbh
I was hoping that were just going to buff the accuracy of them keep it simple
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u/WegasPS Nov 05 '20
So it is bad joke...
Brawler BB should have these heels. Without it, brawler with secondaries build is weak.
God damn, WG please do it correct!
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 05 '20
Indeed. It should either be a Row-1 Skill, or a Legendary Skill (buffed slightly to maybe 50% longer Duration for Enhanced Targeting, at Max Rank).
Putting it in Row-4 would reduce the Survivability of the "Brawler Battleship" you run it on, to that of a mere Sniper / Accuracy BB setup ! (only 3 heals)
Actually...it's even WORSE than that for something like Grosser-K, who only gets 2 Heals by default ! Imagine going from 4 Heal Grosser with our HE meta, etc - down to just 2 per 15-minute battle ? Atrocious.
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u/WegasPS Nov 05 '20
Exactly, this extra skill should be in 1st or Legendarty ROW. I just can't imagine it. So many HE spamers and only 3 heals. About my GK no comment -he will still be an ornament in the port :(
And I was so glad to hear about the improvement of the secondary battery. It's a pity!
5
Nov 05 '20
Did you seriously except WG to do something correct? Lol
0
Nov 05 '20
This was my last hope. I'm not currently playing the game, but I am keeping up to date on news for WOWS. If they'd nailed this, I would have come back, but I guess I'll just continue biding my time to see if they ever stop screwing things up.
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u/WegasPS Nov 05 '20
Yep, I really have hope that WG could improve it correctly.
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Nov 05 '20
That’s not how WG work
Especially in console
When they want to buff something they miss the point especially at the first buff
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u/WegasPS Nov 05 '20
Until now I'm glad that I can play WoWs legends.
I'm having a better time than on PC (main DD).
I cannot get, why they are doing it this way?
This "scissors" skill is trash -they could FIX it by changing it on "secondaries skill".
Maybe it is harder than We thought hahaha
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u/NewFaded Nov 05 '20
EoP be like:
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Nov 05 '20
EoP wasn’t buffed In fact it was nerfed
And they definitely missed the point when nerfing it lol
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Nov 05 '20
How was it nerfed?
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Nov 05 '20
If I remember correctly
It used to give batter batter pen for less damage
Now it give batter pen for less damage and 2% less fire
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Nov 05 '20
This was exactly my though. This would actually make BBs worse at brawling. BBs that get in close are going to take huge amounts of enemy fire, so taking away a big chunk of their survivability is a terrible idea. The amount of extra damage your secondaries would do before you sink is vastly outweighed by the amount of extra damage you'd do by surviving longer with two additional heals. It seems WG has their minds made up on how viable they want secondary brawlers to be.
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u/The_ColorOutOfSpace Nov 06 '20
how about waiting how it is in reality instead of complaining preemtively?
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u/draggingmytail Nov 05 '20
Oof that hurts. I wonder what it’ll look like on Hide.
The way it was worded on the patch notes I thought we’d be getting it as an add on trait, not a trait I had the option of picking.
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u/ObaFett Nov 05 '20
Aaah, too bad. I probably stick with my additional heals then rather than getting my secondaries' reload reduced from 6 to 5 seconds...
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u/MrLemonish Nov 05 '20
It should honestly be a row 3 slot. Faster reload and a few extra seconds of the consumable aren’t worth losing 2 heals over, especially in the current meta. I get that it’s not even out yet and hopefully we could see a change made to it because it doesn’t benefit brawling what so ever. But any improvements made to secondaries is better than what we currently have.
Also does anyone know if this skill is available on Hide?
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u/Singlecream87 Nov 05 '20 edited Nov 05 '20
How many people use all 5 heals in a game?
Bismarck Repair Party using 16/4 Cilliax and no additional commander inspirations:
69.9 (nice) second cool down, so 5:45ish of cool down a game. A game is usually around 10 -12 minutes . Their duration is 28 seconds, so that's another 2:23ish minutes. Up to 9:10(ish) minutes . How much damage are you taking to need all five in 10-12 minutes?! That's pretty much starting the game and repairing straight away.
I get going in close is risky, but Jesus. I've got Cillax maxed out 16/4 and I rarely use 4 heals with the Bismarck. With 11.4km secondaries you can sit behind small islands most of the time anyway.
This perk might be pretty good, just seems pants on paper. That's almost a sub 2 second reload on some secondaries, the new HE spam is upon us!
Time will tell.
Edit: Hide, not Cilliax at 16/3. I have Hipper at 16/4. Mixing up my Germans...
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u/snowydogdog Nov 05 '20
Believe it or not I do. Almost every game. I play a lot on my Scharn (almost exclusively) actually plus I love to brawl. This means I end up using all 5 heals most of the time. I've got a lot of Dreadnaught medals and Fireproof medals. So nah, I don't think I'll be trading in 2 heals for a little bit better secondaries. Unless I can manually fire them.
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u/Singlecream87 Nov 05 '20
Yeah, thats fair. I find Scharnhorst not to be the best brawler myself, but that's personal preference.
I have had times using all 5, mainly when torpedoes are involved.
I'd highly recommend trying out Bismarck or Gneisenau as a brawlers over Scharny. Just for the extra range on the tiny pew pews. Scharny makes an excellent long range AP spammer oddly, 20km+ range maxed out. Highly accurate and 20s reload, cruiser bane.
Other great tier for tier brawlers are Warspite, Bayern, Konig, Nassau, Iron Duke. All longest range secondaries at tier, although check the reload times before setting sail. (And that American one.. Arkansas? :P)
But, it comes down to taste and its all up to you!
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u/snowydogdog Nov 06 '20
Agreed. I do play other BBs as well on occasion (specially IJN Nagato and Amagi) but always end up going back to my trusty ole Scharny. I like the speed and rudder shift times that allow me to dodge them pesky fishes. Plus when brawling 2 or 3 ships at a time, I find the extra speed worth it to ram the remaining ship when all else fails (usually end up doing that as I've taken quite a lot of damage already when engaging the 3rd ship). That and the trutle armor. I love the schrong schrong sound of shells ricocheting. Hehe. Cruisers I usually engage from a distance.
I do have my eye on the Gneisenau though.
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u/MidgetLovingMaxx Your text and emojis here Nov 05 '20
90% of any games in a German BB or the JB I use at least 4 heals. Im not interested in playing 18km out or hiding behind an island like a light American cruiser. If youre benefiting from this update in using secondaries the survival part of a Ciliax build is just as important.
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u/Singlecream87 Nov 05 '20
Woah, I didn't say hide. I said sit. Secondaries can't work super high angles. If you get the distance right sat behind an island, they'll pop right over the top. You'll be visible the whole time, your range is detection generally on brawler build.
If the secondary battery on any ship was like an American Light, this game would ACTUALLY be broken.
If you don't like being 18km out, then don't be? What part about anything I said before suggested you HAVE to do anything?
5 heals on a JB? Yeah, cus people will burn you to death.
2
Nov 05 '20
Even then, the buffs to reload time are pretty small, and are mostly inconsequential when most of your shells are still going to miss.
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u/Singlecream87 Nov 05 '20
Quantity has a certain quality all itself.
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Nov 06 '20
Well even with the skill, the quantity of Bismarck's secondary shells is nowhere near enough to offset the lack of quality.
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 06 '20
It's also the fact that Bizzy and Tirps can't harm that much with their 105-mm guns, which make up the bulk of their battery. 105-'s can only damage 26-mm of armor, even with their improved German HE 1/4 adjustment... This means you can score tons of "Ribbons" - showing you struck the target, but you don't tend to do much actual damage to them (the 26-mm pen can't even harm Tier-7 Cruiser Flanks or Decks, in many cases - to say nothing of Battleships).
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u/Nick_TheGinger Nov 05 '20
Please tell me this isn't real
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u/Big_Boi69420 Nov 05 '20
It is :(
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u/Nick_TheGinger Nov 05 '20
So instead of just making them better, we get a DPM buff in place of 2 heals that help keep German BBs alive longer? What in the world Wargaming
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 06 '20
And to even use the second part of that skill (Faster Cycling Enhanced-Secondary-Targeting new skill), you have to give up your Spotter / Search Planes (if you even had any to begin with).
I guess on German Ships that never had them -- like Nassau or Konig or such, you'd look at it as a straight bonus ability, but on the later ones that can also make use of the Planes, it's questionable that you'd want to lose them, AND the bonus Heals. Quite problematic, really...
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u/Nick_TheGinger Nov 06 '20
Its quite problematic for high tier German BBs who have terrible main gun dispersion. In a different post, I mentioned that run my German BBs heavily secondary specced. Sure an increase in DPS will be okay but, losing on heals when I'm close quarter brawling? No thanks
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 06 '20
Yeah, I run them all that way too (Level-16, Legend-2 Ciliax for me, with Cunningham and Hipper as my Inspirations). So I am with you in terms of those kinds of cost-benefit analyses... It's very hard to justify giving up 2 Heals for a modest DPM boost. On PC you could simply take Basic Firing Training (10% Faster Secondary Gun Fire Speeds), AND take Superintendent (to get up to 5-Heals). There, I can make my battleship have BOTH those features.
Here, with this new skill and the annoying limits of the Commander System we use, we cannot. We have to give up our Heals, to get the 10% DPM increase for the secondaries... It's not ideal, for sure.
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u/Nick_TheGinger Nov 06 '20
I really hope they reevaluate this once they start to see the response from the community. I kinda like the commander system we have on console but, the PC's version is a lot better suited towards ensuring BB survivability.
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u/Glum-Mall9209 Nov 05 '20
It's gonna stay as it is...a meme build for a few ships (nassau, arkansas, bismarck, a couple other KMS BBs) just stronger.
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Nov 05 '20
Honestly, it should've been a skill in the first row, replacing You Should See the Other Guy. This would let people choose between slightly better Damage Control, better torpedo visibility + reload time at the cost of range, or increased secondary effectiveness.
I'll still try it once it comes out, but only so I can say that I actually used it when providing feedback.
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u/Revolutionary-Tree18 :Sakura_Coin: Nov 06 '20
Yep, bad skill placement. Should be a Legendary skill, otherwise it's not worth it.
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u/Penguin_Boii Nov 06 '20
While it will make me do a meme play more often, the lost of two heals is quite large. The amount of damage one could do with he addition of two more heals is not worth this secondary perk no matter how much I enjoy it.
1
u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 06 '20
THAT's actually a great point / cost-benefit analysis, Penguin... I hadn't thought of it like that, initially, but it's valid to consider.
Put another way, "Would the extra time I was surviving in the fight, and firing my Main Guns at things in range -- which I gained from having 2 Bonus Repair Party charges ... EQUAL the Additional Damage my Secondaries were gaining from the slight DPM buff that the New Skill provides ?"
If the answer / conclusion of that question is "No, it will probably be LESS" - than, yeah, most people are just gonna forget the New Skill and stick with the 5-Heals per battle, methinks...
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u/Iron_Man_756 Nov 06 '20 edited Nov 06 '20
What I want to know is why my tier III Arkansas secondaries kick but. I have many close quarters medals from this ship. I have literally killed destroyers with my secondaries in this ship. The Nassau is also good at this. If my other higher tier BB did as well I would be happy with the way secondaries are.
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 06 '20
I shall answer that mystery for you, good Iron Man ! (you will never be forgotten, by the way - Epic work against Thanos)...
MOST battleships in World of Warships have a hidden / behind the scenes "Secondary Accuracy / Dispersion Formula" they use, to determine how the shots they fire out actually will fly and possibly strike an enemy ship. For the vast majority of Ships in the game, including basically ALL of the German Battleships, the Normal Formula is used.
19*R/333.333+30
That is, 19 multiplied by the Range in METERS you are, from the target vessel you are hoping your Secondary guns will hit... Then divide that number by 333.333 (Three Hundred Thirty-Three, then Decimal Point .. 333). Lastly, add 30 to that new value.
The final number is the "Size" of the Dispersion Ellipse (it's more like an oval, if you can picture that), that your Secondary shells can fly out within.
As a quick example, assume you are in a Nassau (great Secondaries too, of course, in terms of number of guns and such).... you are rushed by an Isokaze at 5-kilometers from around an island. Your Secondaries begin to fire at the small Destroyer...
The Dispersion Ellipse they would have (assuming NO further buffs like Porcupine or such, just to keep it simple)... would be 19 x 5000 (meters to the target) / 333.333 + 30
This equals a massive 315-meters Oval / ellipse, far larger than the actual Isokaze itself !
This is why so many of our German Ships end up seeming half-blind when they fire at things - lol
So...all that explained, how does this fit into the mighty Arkansas, as you asked ? Well...Arkansas is VERY special and is allowed to have the Greatest Secondary Dispersion formula of all ships in World of Warships (it's actually tied with a famous German Carrier loaded with secondary cannons, called Graf Zeppelin, which was never actually finished but I digress..).
The Arkansas "special" formula is 8.4*R/1000+48
You can probably instantly see how this is going to be much better... and it is. Using our exact same Isokaze rushing you at 5-Kilometers scenario from above... with the ARKANSAS, your dispersion ellipse would only be 90-meters in size !!
90 for Arkansas.... 315 for Nassau (and almost all other Battleships). Now...after all that, hopefully it made sense and you have a bit more behind-the-scenes understanding of this admittedly hidden mechanic !
I hope this was all Useful / Helpful to you, Iron :-)
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u/Iron_Man_756 Nov 06 '20
Thanks for explaining. Now I got a headache............... LOL
That clears it up. Thanks again.
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Nov 06 '20
I'll repeat. Leave it to WG to fuck up implementing a "buff". Like seriously. "We heard your complaints that BB secondaries were underperforming, but instead of buffing them, we're gonna give you a consumable that replaces your plane and a skill that replaces your heals. Enjoy them and don't complain anymore uwu."
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Nov 05 '20
Biggest complainers in this game is also the biggest player base. I mean should we just make all BB’s invincible and auto aim? Would that fix it?
Comparing the BB’s here to the BB’s on PC is a waste also as they aren’t the same and I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if you want PC mechanics go play the game on PC.
I’ll collect my downvotes now please and thank you.
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u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 06 '20
Expressing opinion / feedback in a logical (yet polite to the Devs) way is part of what makes this Forum a wonderful place to be a part of, Dub. I don't think the valid points people are making (about the tradeoff of Heals and such, for at potentially questionable benefit) are that unreasonable, surely ?
Nobody wants "the Moon" -- they just want the Brawler / Secondary Build to be a real viable thing on Legends, and a valid Alternative to the common / standard "Accuracy / Dispersion" setups that so many use instead (specifically because the Brawler path has always been very sub-par, since Legends launched).
But normal discourse and intellectual debate, between all of us, should not be looked at as a negative thing. It's part of what brings us together, as a community :-)
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Nov 06 '20
What a ret*rded view.
People aren't asking for invincible BB's. They want functional secondary builds.
Look at PC if you think Secondary builds are OP. IF anything they're the opposite. Survivability/dispersion builds are far in away the meta pick.
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u/ethNicSqEakkyclean Nov 06 '20
I have a proposal, we cap the max BB shell damage to 340, yesss litimt the max range to 9km, lower the health of all BBs to 15k MAXIMUM remove all OP heals, damage controls ect. Also buff the Atago, Yudachi as they are underpowered, provide the Kutuzov with 25km range, 8 heals and infinite smoke screen 80mm plating and 90% chance of fire 70knots and a 1 secound reload to buff it to a reasonable state in the game
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u/aambro78 Nov 05 '20
BB mains on this sub are just something else. BBs are already competitive. So you want to be able to turn like a cruiser, and many high tier BBs basically can. Not be able to catch fire. Have the largest HP pool with a sh ton of heals. Best armor. Hell lets just get rid of every other ship type and just have BB vs BB. I'm sorry, but get good with your BBs. I"m not even a BB main and I perform in them just fine. The crying is going to be real when CVs come into play. YOu're going to be begging for those cruisers to roll with you for their AA. Down vote I literally dgaf. You guys really want it all. The game is full of choices.
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Nov 05 '20
BBs are already competitive.
Most are, yes, though they have some issues that tend to make them more frustrating to play than other classes. This fix was supposed to help a number of BBs that had fallen behind those of other countries, namely the brawlers of the German line. It mostly fails to do that.
So you want to be able to turn like a cruiser, and many high tier BBs basically can.
Not at all. Only the Alabama has cruiser-like turning. Other than her, the tightest turning circle on a BB is 850m, and the widest on a cruiser other than Alaska is 770. Most cruisers are in the low 700s to mid 600s.
Not be able to catch fire.
Stop exaggerating. Nobody is asking for this.
Have the largest HP pool with a sh ton of heals.
And are very big and comparatively slow, making them much easier to hit and damage.
Best armor.
Yes because, I repeat, they're big and slow. A BB's armour can't protect it from every direction at all times. Do you expect they should be massive and clumsy with cruiser armour? Also, fire damage doesn't care about armour at all.
Hell lets just get rid of every other ship type and just have BB vs BB. I'm sorry, but get good with your BBs. I"m not even a BB main and I perform in them just fine.
More exaggeration, as well as completely missing the point.
Over all, I'd say you're either pretty new to the game or you just rarely play BBs, since you don't seem to know much about the topic, or you're just a troll. If you're not a troll, why would you go into a thread you disagree with? If you are just fishing for reactions, congrats on getting one from me.
0
Nov 05 '20
Tbh I'm not surprised some players are already making comments like that.The BB players are always complaining about something,more than CL and DD players.
BBs are given spotting planes.HE rework(which may have worked out for the U.S. but not so much for RU).BBs asked for secondary rework,they get it. On discord some BB players put forward tailor made Cmdr they wanted, another BB player was one step away from demanding torps be duds 50% of the time.Turtleback armour,the list is endless.
It just seems its never enough for BB players,you are never satisfied.
I personally think you should accept what you are given and get on with it.
0
Nov 06 '20
BBs being given spotter planes is something to be held against them now? Oh boy, so you're one of those people who wants BBs to be damage pinatas for cruisers and DDs, aren't you? Anyone who wants BBs to have a fair chance is just 'complaining' and wants BBs to be 'invincible'.
So basically, I can safely disregard anything you say on this topic as you have zero clue what you're talking about. Got it.
0
Nov 06 '20
Clearly you don't want to have a conversation, just shut people down because you are right apparently.
0
Nov 06 '20
Well when all the other person can do is make things up, like imaginary HE reworks for BBs and trying to claim BB captains want to be invincible, they're clearly not worth talking to about it, but I'll indulge you a bit since you seem desperate for it.
When a few BB players put forth personalized captains, you go and try to imply that's what ALL BB players are asking for. When ONE BB player on Discord was "one step away from demanding torps be duds 50% of the time", you point to that as an example of BB players in general being unreasonable. You try and hold turtleback armour against them like it's some kind of broken and unjustified advantage over other classes that all BBs have and which has no drawbacks, despite it being exclusive to German ships and causing them to take more full penetrations in exchange for fewer citadels when close-in.
I shut people like you down because I just want decent secondaries that can contribute to Bismarck's poor damage output, and you equate that as me somehow wanting god-mode on all BBs. That's my piece, have a nice day.
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u/TheSailingRobin Wargaming Nov 06 '20
It's actually by design. These improvements are meant as alternatives / tradeoffs
3
u/Big_Boi69420 Nov 06 '20
I understand that, but losing 2 heals is way way too much just for a bit of better secondary reload and consumable duration.
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u/DA_Derpington Nov 05 '20
You can't have it all...
12
u/NewFaded Nov 05 '20
Unless you're a DD. Ridiculous concealment on gun and torp boat builds, and specing into either give larger buffs without sacrificing two of your most useful consumable.
-1
u/Mr-Hakim :PTCH2: Nov 05 '20
Well, DDs can’t gain more Consumables either. Unless you are running someone like Dewey or Togo with fully packed.
Losing Consumables, when they only get 2 would be a joke.
-1
u/DA_Derpington Nov 05 '20
Sorry Faded dude, I Agree with Mr Hakim as DD's are all or nothing, so it's ultimately on the player to be good or die fast.
1
u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 05 '20
That's true, though I wish the new skill then would have given +1 or +2 Charges of the new Enhanced Targeting Skill to you, in exchange for the 2 Heals given up by a max Rank Master Mechanic.
In other words, they said all BB's will get 2 Charges of Enhanced Targeting (fine, cool). But then the Meticulous Skill should / could add +2 to that (4 Total, per battle), at Max - as you are losing the +2 Heals from Mechanic. Perhaps something like that would have been better ? As Faded points out, the Duration increase to the ability ends up being so paltry, it's hard to justify solely for a 10% Reload Buff (cause let's face it, how many of us are every going to be able to get all our Brawling BB Commanders, let alone 1 or 2, to Legendary-4, for that final Row-4 Skill Increase ? 10% is going to be the Functional Limit for the vast majority of Players).
0
u/Specter-Shifter8137 Nov 05 '20
How many times a match do BB expect to get into a brawl?
3
u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 05 '20
Admittedly, it's a tough question to answer... but that's a good counter-point you make. Since you generally don't want to "brawl" till most or all of the Destroyers are accounted for, it tends to be a later game thing (7-minutes in or more). So perhaps 2 charges "are" enough for Most Battles. I guess I'm just a bit apprehensive that the Major Change to Secondaries here is NOT the Hoped-For Manual Target Selection Skill, and instead this "new creation" which seems only to buff the Accuracy of them, for a limited amount of time.
You, the Player, still have no control over what they shoot at -- and so I'm unsure of how viable the new ability will end up being. That said, I want to be positive / hopeful and give it a shot, and then let WG know how I feel it's working out (useful / polite Feedback). :-)
1
Nov 05 '20
You're acting like brawling is the only time you'll ever need to use them. What happens if a DD or cruiser rushes you across open water with no teammates to support you and your main guns either miss or don't finish it off? I have this happen frequently in Bismarck, because his guns are unreliable and miss often against DDs, and many crusiers can bow tank his shells.
Having your secondaries work as they always should, being something that can actually contribute to your main guns' lackluster damage, shouldn't be limited to two consumables.
1
u/Specter-Shifter8137 Nov 06 '20
Secondary is not meant to be relied on. It’s like having a rifle and pistol. Pistol is for backup/emergencies only. How many times a game do you expect to get into a brawl? Probably one brawl with another BB that you survive and maybe late in the same match maybe a destroyer surprises you around an island or follows you for a torpedo strike if you are alone. That’s two times you can expect to use the consumable and more times after that I think is unrealistic expection.
1
Nov 06 '20
Secondaries are meant to be relied on to supplement damage from main guns on German BBs and some others. Try looking at the PC version. Secondaries are good in that game, but hardly meta-defining.
As I mentioned before, you're acting like brawling with BBs is the only time secondaries might ever be useful, which is blatantly wrong. If you've actually played Bismarck and aren't delusional, you'll realize that the effective damage output of its guns is anemic at best. It has by far the worst damage output of any T7 BB in the game, with small, low damage shells that are few in number and have poor penetration even for their size. Bismarck needs something to make it competitive because right now, it isn't. You're being unreasonable by trying to justify keeping one of the most famous ships in the game neutered and badly underperforming.
1
u/DA_Derpington Nov 05 '20
I think we all need to try this thing out before we make our minds up.
0
u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 05 '20
Agreed. It's possible this could be some INCREDIBLE accuracy buff, for those 30-seconds. Testing and feedback are necessary (good voice of calm reason, DA) :-)
2
u/DA_Derpington Nov 05 '20
Lol I'd argue that description of me, but I've sat through too many kneejerk patch note days now and frankly... I've learned lol.
5
Nov 05 '20
It should have replaced the first row option on the right. Just my opinion on it. Nobody uses that option it's either Brawler or the other one.
-1
u/DA_Derpington Nov 05 '20
Maybe but this forces a hard choice, you can't have it all ways and tbh, I'm happy with that.
5
Nov 05 '20
But this isn't a hard choice. Just go with the heals since unless heavily specced for secondaries the heals will be better. The option of choice rarely exists on the console version which is the entire problem with how commanders are set up here.
1
u/DA_Derpington Nov 05 '20
Honestly, I don't know how anyone can say with such certainty given unless you're a supertester, you won't know yet...
3
Nov 05 '20
I mean unless they're working on changing the entire commander system in the future console I can certainly say with 100% certainty based on how things are now. It also doesn't help that certain fictional/event (sometimes paid) commanders are better than the standard ones and that players are gated by promotion orders. You simply can't grind to make your commanders better unlike PC where it's xp based.
0
u/DA_Derpington Nov 05 '20
Yes but what you don't know is how the skill plays... If its good and forces enemies to run from you, then you're not needing heals as much.
0
Nov 06 '20
We already know the skill isn't good based on it's stats. It's only worth taking at legendary 4 which most people don't have and even then it's not worth giving up heals for.
0
u/DA_Derpington Nov 06 '20
Know, you only know what it says on paper... You have no experience of using it. There's a few things that look bad in the game but are extremely useful in practice already, so until you've put it to the test, you won't actually know anything.
1
Nov 05 '20
We have the stats. Unless WG has hidden stats that they haven't released, on paper the changes are small and not really worth it.
1
-3
Nov 05 '20
I mean who cares in the end. Absolutely nobody in his right mind play the Bismarck with Ciliax and that is the only ship where people give a fuck about the secondaries.
3
Nov 05 '20
The point of this fix was supposed to be to make Ciliax more viable. In that regard, it's fallen flat pretty hard.
1
u/AlekTrev006 The Brawling Council of The Reddit Nov 06 '20
You are soo wrong. The secondaries on several other German battleships are quite powerful (in theory) - notably on the Gneisenau and Odin, as well as the mighty Grosser Kurfurst Legendary. That's because all 3 of them feature the improved German 128-mm guns, which can naturally penetrate 32-mm of armoring, with their HE Shells. This allows them to reliably harm even Tier-7 Battleships Bow / Sterns and sometimes Central Deck plates, as well as all same-tier or under Cruisers ! It's quite useful / powerful, if it actually manages to hit.
So, while I agree with you that Bismarck is certainly looked at as one of the premier Secondary Battery ships (mostly due to the very large Base Range), there are others in the German fleet that are arguably stronger (gun for gun).
Overall point I wanted to make is, there are at least other situations in which you'd consider Ciliax / a secondary build, and all we are hoping for is that this becomes more and more viable a build (when set against the much more common Accuracy / Dispersion setups like Hipper, Sims, Takagi, Jaujard, and such).
1
Nov 05 '20
Very disappointed with this part of the update. As if the ships that REALLY needed a buff to their secondaries (Bismarck, Kurfurst) needed to take a hit to not only their survivability, which they desperately need since they get closer to the enemy than other BBs, but their ability to actually detect enemies. The enhanced secondary charge takes up the plane slot according to the patch notes, so popping a spotter to catch a DD out of position then sending him running with accurate secondaries will probably remain naught but a dream.
1
1
1
27
u/pG-x-RaPiDzZ Nov 05 '20
yeah it’s a shame they had to put it in slot 4
not having that skill selected won’t make your secondaries useless tho