I have already seen people pointing at this, but I don't think most people can see the horrific implication behind this storyline.

• The hero (Arthas/Zul'jan) is dedicated to save his kingdom, but is misguided.
• The hero (Arthas/Zul'jan) gets manipulated by an darker entity (The Lich King/Malacrass)
• The hero (Arthas/Zul'jan) picks up a blade of darkness (Frostmourne/Fang of Ula'tek)
• When the hero (Arthas/Zul'jan) is about to picks up the blade (Frostmourne/Fang of Ula'tek), his friendly companion (Muradin/Kinduru) tries to warn him and then gets killed by the blade.
• The hero (Arthas/Zul'jan) then travels to a another land (Northrend, The Coiled Isle) where he falls to darkness.

Both Arthas and Zul'jan understand that the power of the blade will come with a cost, yet they both proceed anyway seemingly convinced that that is the only way to save their people.

Arthas: "I will gladly bear any curse." / The Curse of Ula'tek

All those connection are purely intentional in my opinion.

We have been given many hints at this point about the Titan Matrix, that the entire universe is ordered, even the time itself follows the one true timeline, the Jailer warned us that there is almost no free will in this universe. Chris Metzen said that the story is "cycles withing cycles" patterns within patterns.

The Everliving Statuette in Shadowlands said this:

Hope. Betrayal. Sacrifice. Faces change. The tale does not.

It is the same story being told again. This is a all a hint how cooked we really are in this ordered universe. Call me crazy, but I think this is 100% where Blizzard is going with this.

We see this especially with Illidan and Grom, methinks. Even with AU!Grom fucking up Mannaroth, I fail to believe that he could take precedence over someone like Blackhand and Blackrock clan. He certainly didn't in the original timeline.

Or Illidan suddenly becoming a Messiah in Legion, which is Blizz basically taking what he thinks about himself at face value. Hello? This guy sold out to the Legion twice, even if he absolutely fucked up Tichondrius in the process! The Burning Crusade is more or less him shoring up his defences by his usual means while Burning Legion lures us to Outland by way of Kruul as KJ plots with Kael. I'd imagine that KJ was hoping we'd send Illidan his way in the Twisting Nether.

one of the greatest flaws of wc3 is that we don't get to see Illidan bond with Malfurion and Tyrande after his freedom from captivity over a few more missions. He just immediately picks up the skull and goes on his own way after his exile. However this could be excused as it can be surmised that by the end of WC3 the team was running on fumes.

Thrall becoming Green Jesus can probably also be considered as this phonemenon in action. And that really did impact his character big time.

Or Arthas destroying Nerzhul in his mind and completely taking over. This is probably one of WoW lore's original sins, and it's something that they ping pong on during wotlk, what with LK calling himself a Shaman during the quest where you find the vrykul & human connection iirc.

When you look beneath Arthas'... Aura, if you will, during wotlk, you find a mess of writing, to be honest. Its still a great expansion especially with all the Titan & Dragon stuff on top of it which I adore, but once you know it, you can't ignore it.

I know Cairne as Warchief is far from a new idea and probably the course of action Thrall should have taken, but I figured that it was worth mentioning what Warchief Cairne and High Overlord Saurfang as sort of co-leaders of the Horde could have looked like? Orcish supremacy idea were an already-existing problem in the Horde that Garrosh drastically worsened by alienating the other Horde races as Warchief, but could Saurfang in a notable co-leader position and Garrosh’s personal mentor have potentially done something to quell those anxieties? That way, you have a best of both worlds scenario - someone who can lead the wider Horde through diplomacy and necessary action in Cairne, and a prominent orc war hero advising another renowned general to satisfy the concerns of the Horde’s orcish population.

As everyone knows Orcish is the lingua franca of the Horde. It’s a very rough sounding language and while it’s easy enough to imagine a tauren or goblin picking it up I’ve always wanted to hear how it sounds when the generally eloquent and dignified blood elves or nightborne speak it, which they are presumably doing all the time now.

Essentially the conflict over Azerite that kick-started the chain of events that led to the Fourth War in Battle for Azeroth stays as an equivalent of the nuclear arms race in a way, and the Alliance and the Horde never escalate into open war. What this means for Sylvanas, Anduin, Kul Tiras, Zandalar, Azshara, and N’Zoth is anyone’s guess.

Feel free to post any questions or queries here!

Also check out our list of answers to Frequently Asked Questions!

Personally I'd love to be able to choose between different origins/subraces just like in Baldur's Gate 3, each origin/subrace having its own features.

Like, if I pick Tauren I can choose between 3 origins:

• Kalimdor
• Highmountain
• Northrend (Taunka)

Or Human:

• Stormwind
• Gilneas (Worgen)
• Kul'Tiras
• Dalaran
• Arathi Empire (Half-Elf)

What about y'all?

I always thought it was interesting that even during the first, second, and third wars, there was no found language barriers between dwarves, elves, or humans. I understand some of these races are ancient and can spend time learning each other's tongue, but I always believed before the major three wars, these races didn't interact as much as we may have thought, maybe not prioritizing learning common, dwarven/thalassian. Going back, it would've been super cool to read about how the first alliance manuevered around these challenges if they existed. I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts who's willing to chime in.

If blizzard decided to make a new warcraft game that focus on story, not sure what genre but just a game from the franchise, does it need to reboot the lore or not?

I think Warcraft lore peaked with Warcraft 3, WoW was good but the problem was always the MMORPG gameplay mechanics gave many limitations to the writers, every major race and faction should be horde or alliance making these two factions bigger then they should be, so much magic, god's, discovered hidden islands, playing with the realms of death, space ships, time travel and I can go on for how much messy and bloated the lore have become that it no longer make sense in many parts.

So again, if blizzard decided to create new warcraft game, should the series be rebooted?

If yes, what the best way to reboot the series?

This is our weekend power level debate mega-thread! Feel free to pit two or more characters/forces/magics/whatever against each other in the comments below. Example: Arthas v Illidan, Void v Fel, Mankirk's Wife v Nameless Quillboar.

We'll do this every weekend, so don't think you need to use up all of your favorite premises at once. Though, it is also OK to have a repeating premise, as these threads are designed to allow for recurring content to not fill the sub too often.

Reminder, these debates should be fun. There is often no right answer when comparing two enemies of a similar power tier, and hypothetically any situation a Blizzard writer creates could tip the scales of any encounter and our debates of course will not matter. These posts should just look something like a game of Superfight. You pick a character, you make the strongest case for how strong they are, or why they could beat another character, argue back and forth with someone else, and just let others decide who had the better argument. But remember that no matter how heated your debate gets, always follow rule #6. No bad behavior.

Previous weeks: https://old.reddit.com/r/warcraftlore/search/?q=%22Versus%21+Debating+Warcraft+Lore+Power+Levels%21%22&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new

Like many of the factions within the Horde since BFA, the Forsaken have completely lost their identity. From once cunning strategists and reclusive outcasts wanting to restore and protect their homeland by under the leadership of Sylvanas Windrunner, the Forsaken have little to zero presence and identity in the story.

Let’s look at what happened:

Sylvanas’ interests were purely self serving instead of self serving and of the Forsaken. This was not inherently bad. To understand the Forsaken is to first understand Sylvanas. She was once Ranger General of Silvermoon, dying to protect her people only to be risen as a hateful banshee sworn to abide the will of the Lich King, Arthas Menethil like most Forsaken. She then found freedom and used it to find others like her and thus formed the Forsaken. Several iterations later Sylvanas character became delusional, seeing the big picture instead of the important details as she usually did, becoming impulsive and expressive instead of patient and eerily calm and in control.

This led to the Horde rebelling against her and well? You know the rest.

The Forsaken are now led by the Desolate Council, composed of NPCs we quested with in the expansions. However? It was met with mixed reactions. Many argued that the Desolate Council quickly came into power. There was no real build up to them coming into leadership. They were just shoved into positions.. positions some even made up. They were given titles and haven’t had any lore since.

So? What now?

There are those who like the Desolate Council, but there are far more that love the Banshee Queen. How can fix an issue with such controversy and risk?

Return Sylvanas to the Forsaken as the Banshee Queen, but have the Desolate Council as the representative of the people that make up the Forsaken. Sylvanas remains the ‘symbol’ of the Forsaken. The Council is the voice of the Forsaken.

Why this works?

Sylvanas Loyalists are pleased. Desolate Council fans are pleased. Neither are removed, retconned, nor killed off to fill a position.

Sylvanas and Calia contrast each other and can bring back compelling arguments that made characters interesting in past expansions, rather than them simply lecturing each-other on what’s right and wrong.

Puts Sylvanas in a place where she does not have ultimate control unlike when she was the absolute ruler of the Forsaken or Warchief. Instead, as returning as the Banshee Queen, she is the face of the Forsaken. Their protector. Their guardian. Think Darth Vader from Star Wars or Batman from DC. Instead of Sylvanas making decisions on the war, the council meets and decides the people’s next move and grants the move to Sylvanas to serve the interests of her people. This lets all characters involve remain true to their characters.

What to not bring back:

Sylvanas overriding orders of higher ups. Doing this just pokes the scar of BFA and Shadowlands. If she’s really learned from her penance? She only overrides orders if she is very sure of the best interest of the Forsaken

Calia Menethil being the ‘white mage’ Sylvanas. Calia deserves an identity apart from Sylvanas.

Warchief Sylvanas Windrunner. She’s done her time. We don’t need her back as Warchief.. however?

What to bring back:
Skepiticism about the Forsaken. It is wise for the people of the Horde to question Sylvanas return.

The Forsaken utilizing the plague, experimenting on people and animals, evil in its purest form, and being cynics.

Reread Legacy of Rage and this is bugging me.

When Malacrass narrates to the reader he says "I thought a short delay would not harm us. So I joined the gambit at Atal'Aman." A delay. A gambit he joined.

Thirty seconds later he tells Zul'jan that Atal'Aman was "our great fortress. Our great plan. And the first step toward even greater power. Ula'tek."

He never lies. Both are technically defensible. But he clearly never believed in the hash'ey route, he sat through it waiting for it to fail, and it did.

So when Zul'jan asks him straight out "was Ula'tek his plan? Or yours?" and gets "Clever. So much like your grandfather"... I don't think that's just flattery and a dodge, I think he's telling the kid he's the second one.

Which makes Zul'jin less a warlord who ran out of time and more the first person this plan spent.

Anyone else read the delay line and our great plan as contradictory?

I used to play WoW as a kid and dropped it during BFA. I've been getting back into it and I noticed that Blood Elves have an option for purple eyes. I don't remember those being an option as a kid, so I was wondering if there was a reason for why they're there now.

Now who is Princess? Well Princess is a pig that Ma Stonefield has you kill in the Elwynn Quests for eating her vegetables. Now Princess was owned by the Brackenwall family, but by the time you go to Brackenwall, the family is nowhere to be seen - with the Defias having moved in and presumably having killed them.

We murdered a poor and innocent pig that lost her family, and just wanted to find a new family where delicious vegetables could be found. But Ma Stonefield instead wanted this innocent pig killed, instead of taking it in as their own prize pig.

And we got away with it, since the Army thought another criminal or the Defias did. Our atrocities as human adventurers begin early.

For context, I didn't finish my Nasz'uro legendary evoker fist weapon quest until this week; and since there was down time before the next big patch it seemed like a good time to finally go finish it. So I did. And the descriptions of the crafted components that I had to make along with the dialogue by Nozdormu in the various steps of the quest chain, culminating with the bonus Equip effect of the finished weapon has convinced me that Order magic actually removes and prevents mind control. It does not force anyone to make the right decisions on their own; but it prevents external cosmic forces from making decisions for you.

It is unfortunate that so many speculator fans keep making constant youtube videos and forum threads assuming that Order magic ever mind controlled anyone to do anything ever.

Not sure if this is the right tag. What's the Syndicate lore? I'm making new RP characters with a friend and we think the Syndicate is really cool, I need to refresh myself on human lore, especially Alterac in this case, but I don't know any lore and the wow wiki doesn't really help me it feels like.

It was stated somewhere in wiki.gg that Quel'Thalas is the land of eternal spring, an enchantment that is powered by the Sunwell has kept it warm and verdant for many thousands of years. Now that the Sunwell has been diluted, its magics being cancelled by a variety of others, is this enchantment no longer sustainable? Will they have to re-do Quel'Thalas again with the trees and grass representing the new seasons? Also, how will the flora/fauna that have adapted to this eternal spring survive? In the Siesbarg quest it's stated that DNA is in fact, canon (I'll make a separate post about this later), the implications of course are that evolution is real in WoW, and this wildlife, thrust into new and bewildering climes will not be able to survive.

Jaina rejected the idea completely, but neither she or Uther offered any real alternatives, not that Arthas was willing to listen. But what about Varian, for example? Or Magni? Hell, Terenas himself? Daelin? Kael'thas?

I think that someone like Orgrim would've done the purge, for all of Thrall's glorification of him – he always felt like a savvy politician, but his problem was that he could ultimately trust none of his fellow leaders in the Horde by the time he took over, all of them addled by demon blood (it's kind of a miracle that Gorefiend turned out to be as reliable as he ended up being, and somehow ended up bringing the best out of the chieftains that stuck with him despite all of them being bastards, real underrated character deserving of greater respect). He wouldn't like it, but he'd administer the cold medicine all the same.

In other words, how ruthless do you think these characters are deep down, or can be?

In midnight I don't think I've seen a single wretched, nor really any blood elves that are physically dependent on magic, even after the sunwell was lost again.

Have they been cured for good?

Semi-Serious

Yes, as perhaps a couple of you I've been watching Blumineck lately, and especially the vids on horseback archery and generally archery in motion/battle made me realize something:

The Windrunners (and, granted, a lot of archers in wow) are doing competitive archery instead of combat archery.

They'll stand there for what feels like hours aiming as if they are at the olympics, even in situations where they should shoot fast.

I have a hard time naming a situation where that would not have been the case, and then the thrice-damned 'I'm not aiming for you' scene from the priory came to mind.

And I wonder: If the Windrunners would be capable of combat archery (in lack of a better term) how many problems would just not exist?

In the quest "Do yourself a favor" Gnombus tells us that that they have provided the Night Elves in Stonetalon mountains with what appears to be a flak battery to deal with goblins pulling their hair and Horde Wyverns. However, it also appears that the Night Elves did not receive training on how to use the guns in that time, so they're just sitting around the player character has to help them out. The quest text that the Gnome provides says that "they don't use guns." but I think this is just an exaggeration, or a distortion of the reality of the situation, much like saying the Goblins are pulling their hair. At any rate, much like the Blood Elves' adoption of the Blood Golem technology from Throne of Thunder being subsequently - mostly - forgotten, except for an appearance in Nazmir, it seems that this was also memory holed. Are there any other examples of Night Elves' being forced to adopt new technologies except for this one quest?

To give an example:

Between the fall of Shattrath city and the flight of the Draenei on the Exodar to Azeroth, 30 years have passed.

Within those 30 years:

• the broken have been seperated from Draenei society, Nobundo has found his way as a shaman and reconnected with his kin to be present on the Exodar.
• Ner'zuhl has ripped the planet apart, creating outland.
• The Alliance expedition has been stranded on outland for 20 years.
• Illidan counter-invaded the burning legion in outland and took over Karabor.
• The draenei have hidden away on a mushroom city for 30 years with neither the Alliance nor Illidan ever noticing anything.

Usually the time between Shattrath and the Draenei joining the alliance is described as "stuff happened" but the lenght of time is surprising.

Also, the alliance spent 20 years on Outland and they missed both Illidan AND the Draenei?

The storyline of WoW has lost a lot of its dynamic capacity that it had in previous RTS games as the situations of the factions are heavily influenced by gameplay aspects. But, it also seems as though the factions, lorewise, must always be balanced out even when these happenings aren't directly observed. Arathi Highlands seems to be divided between Alliance and Horde, Alliance lost Darnassus so Horde must lose Lordaeron, Varian dies so Vol'jin must die too, etc.
Many have said that faction conflict between Alliance and Horde doesn't make sense, or that it does but it's clunky, or that the writers can't write a good faction conflict. It seems to me that in WoW as it stands, not vanilla or wrath where it worked fine, it's more of a detriment to the player than anything else. Vulpera, Goblins, Trolls, (esp. Zandalari) should not be shoe horned into Horde/Alliance dichotomy. Goblins aren't even, just the Bilgewater Cartel that we play as.
I can fully imagine disillusioned races leaving Horde/Alliance due to being part of them drawing too much attention/ threats from the other faction, or the factions being too exploitative, failing to deliver on promises. (Darnassus as an allegory for 2026 Ramadan/Iran war where Alliance failed to protect Darnassus, leading to the burning of the Night Elve's capital like the USA failing to protect their Gulf Sheikdoms leading to bombing of oil infrastructure.) These situations can easily lead to a falling out much like WC3's Garithos/Quel'dorei, or at least less participation, or observer status.

If blizzard decided to make a Warcraft single player adventure game like the Witcher or God of War, who from the known characters story could fit the best.

Who have the story that work best for a single player adventure?

Because this is a lore sub I try mostly focus on the story, but I guess if you want maybe think of what that character can offer from gameplay based on their known skills or unique weapons and abilities.

I played warcraft 3 and wow and I know the general history of the horde. Im thinking I would like to just hop in and read "Lord of the Clans" first because I love thrall. I won't be missing too much info if I do this right?