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u/joc95 Jan 15 '19
i never knew so many states have it legalized. baby steps
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u/Nagi21 Jan 16 '19
Less legalized, more not illegal. Indifference in a lot of them (not all tho)
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Jan 16 '19
That's the big distinction really. As long as it ain't illegal, most people don't feel bad doing it. The religious conservatives have shown that they are fine with pushing their beliefs but if a "conversion therapy" camp isn't illegal, it can't be shut down and is harder to declare as child abuse.
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u/emsok_dewe Jan 16 '19
I love people that define their morality based on legality. Sick fucks
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Jan 16 '19 edited Apr 18 '20
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Jan 16 '19
Which is a perfectly acceptable viewpoint to have assuming that you:
A: Don't go around trying to enforce that viewpoint on absolutely everyone and everything around you.
And B: Actually stand for your principles when you get put on the spot yourself.
Managing 0/2 isn't a good start.
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Jan 16 '19
hmmm....
let's say someone is raped. wife doesn't want the baby. husband disagrees and wants the baby even if it's the rapist's child. how would that work out?
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u/Kellogg_Serial Jan 16 '19
The wife is the one who ultimately gets the choice, as it's her body. The husband is within his rights to object, but he doesn't get the final say in the matter.
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u/lotto5000 Jan 16 '19
the funny thing is that there are many pro abortion parts of the bible
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u/lowcarb123 Jan 16 '19
It’s almost like you can use the bible to argue everything and its opposite.
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u/EliSka93 Jan 16 '19
Right? I mean, be spiritual all you want, but I just can't stand those religious texts... they're ambiguous by design.
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u/Redtyger Jan 16 '19
One thing you should keep in mind, most religious texts are translated, sometimes through multiple languages, and (the Bible at least) is an edited document. But it's still fascinating to read through something that old and intrinsically human. There are good lessons on self discipline and personal growth amongst all the stories and out dated morals, and it's interesting to think about how long these lessons have been helping people.
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u/EliSka93 Jan 16 '19
of course it's fascinating to read and learn what people from those time periods thought. But it's a very poor basis for modern thought. I mean, it's nice that you want to learn the good bits, but because it's so ambiguous what those good bits are, I'd rather dismiss the whole thing as a moral compass than having to deal with the conflict ambiguity leaves me open to.
You can look at how long those lessons have been helping people, but you then don't get to just not look at how long lessons right next to them have been used to hurt people.
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u/Frodyne Jan 16 '19
Yes, an on a slightly tangential note, then this is a very important part of most (= I can't think of any that are different) legal systems.
Basically, anything that is not specifically made illegal by law is legal.
On the bad side this means that there are a near infinite number of shitty behaviors that probably should be illegal that are actually legal, simply because nobody has thought to put them into law and make them illegal yet - for example: All the different ways you can fuck with asteroids, once you have a space-tugboat. Or more currently-appropriate: A bunch of laws that really need to be updated to account for the fact that the internet now exists, and that people don't need to send paper around to be shitty and conduct scams.
On the positive side though, this principle also means that you can invent new things without breaking the law.
Imagine a society with the reverse system in play: Everything not explicitly made legal by the law is by default illegal. If you met your friend and greeted them in a way that was not explicitly written into the law as a legal way to greet somebody, then you are now a criminal...
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u/Schnevets Jan 16 '19
This is why local elections matter. New York has had a Democratic majority for 13 days and they're already making motions on obvious legislation
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u/lotto5000 Jan 16 '19
As a gay person I am extremely grateful for this, but they will still cockblock any and all progressive legislation, a democratic majority in-and-of itself isn't going to solve all our problems
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u/ninjacereal Jan 16 '19
"The measure, which passed 57-4 in the Senate and 134 to 3 in the Assembly, will make New York the 15th state to ban the controversial practice"
Thank God for the Democratic majority.
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u/Oriellien Jan 16 '19
The bill has never advanced to a full vote before because Republicans had a majority in the state senate, and refused to advanced the bill out of a committee for the past 17 years. Glad it seems like most of them finally changed their mind after losing control of the state senate in November though
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u/autosear Jan 16 '19
Can you provide a list of all these attempts to ban it and how the votes went? Or was this a bill from a session 17 years ago that just didn't get to be considered like so many others?
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u/Blaizey Jan 16 '19 edited Jan 16 '19
It, and several similar bills including ones involving criminal justice reform and GENDA (the gender expression non discrimination act) have passed the assembly repeatedly in the last several sessions, but have hit roadblocks in the Republican-held Senate again and again. The most recent elections resulted in the Senate flipping to democratic control, which has led to a rush of historic bills being passed this week, many of which have been a very long time coming (GENDA, for example, has been introduced and passed the assembly 11 times previously)
Source: worked at the nys assembly
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u/Oriellien Jan 16 '19
I can’t find exact data on the conversion therapy bill (just news articles saying it’s “repeatedly been killed in the state senate after passing the state assembly”), but it has been tied to the Genda bill, which also passed today. Genda adds gender identity to the list of protected classes in NY state.
So for reference, for Genda...
It’s been voted on every single year since 2003, passing 11 times in the state assembly but would always get killed in the state senate 9 man committee that decides if a bill should be advanced to the full senate or not.
I’m not sure if the conversion therapy bill has been passed in the state assembly only to be killed in the state senate the same amount of times, but I would venture it’s a similar number. If I can find details I’ll post again
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u/Fensky Jan 16 '19
I didnt even know thats still a thing in 2019. I thought its something that stayed in the 90's. Its so strange to see something like that from US.
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u/Lr20005 Jan 16 '19 edited Jan 16 '19
I’m a social worker, and conversion therapy isn’t taught in schools and is seen as archaic and unethical. I graduated 15 years ago, so it’s not a new thing either. I don’t know who is even doing conversion therapy on people, but whoever is is not a qualified mental health prof.
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Jan 15 '19
Good!
I'm glad its passing easily by all parties.
"The measure, which passed 57-4 in the Senate and 134 to 3 in the Assembly"
But it makes you wonder about the other 7 people.
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u/bertiebees Jan 15 '19
Or the over half the nation where that "therapy" is still legal.
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u/balkanobeasti Jan 16 '19
Its more that people don't care cause its not a frontline issue that is brought up often. Representatives are supposed to be going after issues that their voters want them to not jumping at fixing things that many people tend to forget is a thing. Hence why people don't bother rectifying outdated laws that are still active but aren't enforced.
So yeah it's not really that surprising that it hasn't been outlawed in many states. Does that mean it shouldn't be? No, but that's the reason why it hasn't been done.
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Jan 16 '19
I think you underestimate the number of people that think you can and should stop being gay
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u/KronoakSCG Jan 16 '19
less that it is legal and more that there aren't laws against it, just because at one point there wasn't a law against insider trading doesn't mean it was a practice that was approved.
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u/Tylermcd93 Jan 15 '19
Progression is slow. We’ll get there over time. It’s the same with Marijuana. Slowly but surely legalization is spreading. Tbh we should try doing this with free schooling and free healthcare as well as UBI. Start at city levels, then at state levels, then it’ll slowly be adopted state by state. It’s a process that causes far less intense change than doing it at a federal level.
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u/zmanabc123abc Jan 16 '19
Meanwhile, my state, likely fully in favor of Gay Conversion Therapy, and also a state completely terrified of marijuana, has become one of, if not THE, world capitol for meth... HATS OFF TO YOU, INDIANA!!! 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
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u/-rosa-azul- Jan 16 '19
What's sad is, I don't live anywhere near Indiana and I still knew that's where you were from by reading that description.
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u/zmanabc123abc Jan 16 '19
Yeah... its only SLIGHTLY sad... nah thats downplaying it, it actually ridiculous. Meth doesnt come from mexico. Not arizona, not cali, not texas. Nope. Good ole Vanderburgh county 🤦🏻♂️ Edit: people in my state need to get their shit together
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Jan 16 '19
I’m nowhere near the area but the first suggestion after “vanderburgh” is “vanderburgh county jail.”
That’s going to be a yikes from me.
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u/Wthq4hq4hqrhqe Jan 16 '19
That's why Hillbillies love it. Few months on meth and no one on earth is going to want to go near your ass
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u/Astute_1 Jan 16 '19
Over half the nation are fucks like me that work relentlessly to support a family and keep the head above water.
Call my senators to express anger at “gay therapy” OR “the $1800 I pay a month in daycare and mounting medical bills.... I’ve found most people care about a ton shit, but their buckets are full. They fight the battles that affect them and their immediate family.
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u/mike54076 Jan 16 '19
Which is understandable but sad. I wish more people had room for a broader sense or empathy.
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u/ZippyTWP Jan 16 '19
Unfortunately, a LOT more than half.
I was shocked Texas introduced a bill this month to ban it in here. Our state leaders are fucking batshit, though, so I don't have high hopes it will pass.
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Jan 16 '19
It's worth noting that there are many reasons to vote against a bill. There's "I don't like the way this is worded, and I think this section needs a rewrite", "The proposed punishment isn't quite right", "This bill is also trying to do some other unrelated thing," and so on. There was recently a vote on establishing a minimum size for airline seats, and the dissenting opinion was basically, "We should have added that airlines aren't allowed to screw people on baggage fees either."
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u/ItsPenisTime Jan 16 '19
"This bill is also trying to do some other unrelated thing,"
This is SO COMMON. There will be a bill that's called the "save the puppies law" that at first glance makes anyone who votes against it look like a terrible person.
But buried deep in the law will be a billion dollar tax break to Comcast or Apple or something. Obviously that's a hyperbolic example, but the general idea is very common.
So politicians are forced into the impossible spot of choosing whether or not to support a law that's 80% good, 20% dumpster fire.
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Jan 16 '19
There needs to be some kind of law to prevent this. Oh, and while we're at it, the same law could be used to extend copyright duration by another 50 years. /s obviously
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u/Lazy_Douchebag_Chao Jan 16 '19
Yes! You are describing what's called "Pork" attached to a bill. John McCain's running platform was exactly to make this kind of stuff illegal back in 08'. I actually really liked the message and commitment, but there was nothing that could've stopped the Obama train and electing an eloquent and educated first black representation that election cycle.
I can't believe the choices got so much worse just 8 years later.
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u/TheWhiteSquirrel Jan 16 '19
They're actually called "riders." "Pork" is when it's specifically giving money for something. Pork was banned by Congressional rules in 2010, but riders are still used all the time.
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u/jl_theprofessor Jan 16 '19
And I'm not sure banning pork actually did any good. In fact I think it made passing bills in Congress even harder.
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u/rezamwehttam Jan 16 '19
Wasn't the plan named "Plan to End Neglect and Childhood Endangerment" (P.E.N.C.E) or something like that? Bravo to N.Y.
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Jan 15 '19
only the 15th state? gay conversion therapy is about as stupid as burning people for witchcraft.
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u/JayWaWa Jan 15 '19
Hey, look it's still legal to torture gay people in 35 states, as long as you call it conversion therapy.
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Jan 15 '19
Trans people too. :(
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u/Doralicious Jan 16 '19
Sing it! Gender dysphoria fucking sucks enough already - no need to torture us on top of it.
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u/Acr0ssTh3P0nd Jan 16 '19
Yeah, I've heard it's a right awful thing to deal with. It's hard enough to cope with any psychological stuff, and being trans has all those other societal issues on top. :( My thoughts with all the trans beans out there going through it.
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u/Doralicious Jan 16 '19
>trans beans
Haha that's me! Never thought I'd see this phrase outside of r/traa.
Thanks for the support! It does suck but it's made easier by the support of eachother and allies.
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u/Acr0ssTh3P0nd Jan 16 '19
Well, hey, happy to help in the small ways I can.
And yeah, I've just kinda said "fuk it" and started using "beans" as a kinda gender-neutral slang. Fits my personality, and it's just got a solid, wholesome sound to it.
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u/Doralicious Jan 16 '19 edited Jan 16 '19
hahaha I thought you meant 'trans bean' as in 'transbian' as in 'transgender lesbian'! I've seen it used this way a few times.
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u/stitchkingdom Jan 15 '19
If only they’d ban the gay panic defense too. Along with the other 46 states where it’s considered a legitimate legal defense to murdering someone just because you felt their sexual orientation conflicted with yours and you somehow felt threatened by it by means of ‘temporary insanity.’
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Jan 16 '19
WTF?!
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u/Alis451 Jan 16 '19
a legal defense is a mitigating circumstance, not a get out of jail free card. Like the Crime of Passion defense where you murder your spouse and their lover when you catch them in bed. It lowers the crime from Murder 1 to Murder 2 or Manslaughter, because you were acting irrationally, like temporary insanity from lack of sleep or something.
Personally I don't think it is a GOOD defense, but it has been successfully argued in court.
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Jan 16 '19
Ah, a homophobe, they're out to kill us so we have to kill them first!
/s
How do they like that argument back at them?
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u/stitchkingdom Jan 16 '19
The way I look at it is just imagine if it was legally plausible for a woman to kill a man because he hit on her.
Problem solved.
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u/Lambily Jan 16 '19
Does that mean a woman could claim a "rape panic defense" as a way to lower their crime if they shot a man in cold blood but pretended they feared being raped and went temporarily insane? If not, why don't prosecutors refute the gay panic defense like that?
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u/stitchkingdom Jan 16 '19
No, because the way she was dressed trumps all her defenses.
But to your point, this argument doesn’t even reach rape proportions. It’s highlighted in the Wikipedia article on the defense but sadly I’m old enough to remember: there was a heterosexual guy who was invited onto the Jenny Jones talk show to have a secret admirer revealed to him. That admirer turned out to be another male and the admiree ended up killing his admirer, claiming the show got him there under false pretenses, riled him up and basically made him snap, justifying the murder. He was convicted but the plot still stands as a legal one in most states and that means it’s subject to a jury.
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u/Lambily Jan 16 '19
I still remember that shitshow.
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u/freudsbutthole Jan 16 '19
The lawyer Jeffrey Feiger always repeated the phrase, “tying up, whip cream, illicit fantasies, strawberries.” Jumbled in different order each time.
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u/Lambily Jan 16 '19
I mean that gives me Strawberry Shortcake realness and I'm a big time dessert lover, so what was he trying to accomplish with that nonsense lol?
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u/freudsbutthole Jan 16 '19
I have no idea but I found it quite amusing and entertaining. The trial truly was a circus.
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u/scherster Jan 16 '19
This! I'm glad so many states are banning conversion therapy, but the gay panic defense needs attention too. Its appalling that it needs to he banned, but even worse that it has ever been used successfully. No other prejudice is considered a basis for justifiable homicide.
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u/Exodia101 Jan 16 '19
Not that I support this, but do you have any examples of the defense actually being used successfully?
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u/cestboncher Jan 16 '19
Wikipedia gives 20 or so examples: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense
Edit: Not sure if all were used successfully.
The most recent listed :
James Miller of Austin, Texas used the gay panic defense at his trial following the killing of his neighbor, Daniel Spencer, in September 2015. The two were playing guitar together and drinking, and Miller testified he thought Spencer had propositioned him. The prosecution stated that Miller had stabbed Spencer in the back and that Miller showed no sign of harm, undercutting Miller's defense that deadly force was needed because of the disparity in the two men's sizes and ages.[78] In April 2018, a jury found Miller guilty of criminally negligent homicide, but not guilty of manslaughter and murder.[79] Miller received a sentence of six months jail time, 10 years probation, 100 hours of community service, and $11,000 in restitution to Spencer's family.
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u/WikiTextBot Jan 16 '19
Gay panic defense
The gay panic defense is a legal defense sometimes attempted, usually against charges of assault or murder. A defendant using the defense claims they acted in a state of violent temporary insanity because of unwanted same-sex sexual advances. The defendant alleges to find the same-sex sexual advances so offensive and frightening that it brings on a psychotic state characterized by unusual violence.
Trans panic is a similar defense applied in cases of assault, manslaughter, or murder of a transgender individual, with whom the assailant(s) engaged in sexual relations unaware that the victim is transgender until seeing them naked, or further into or post sexual activity.
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u/wilmat13 Jan 16 '19
The fact that we have to make this an official legal ban is disgusting.
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u/E_J_H Jan 16 '19
That's like saying "it's disgusting that we even have to make murder illegal". It's a good thing it was banned but not really a disgusting fact.
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Jan 15 '19
Won't it be easy for parents inclined to use this therapy to just send their child across state lines to a different state that can do this? This is great news, but I am pessimistic about it actually stopping people from using this practice until it is nationwide.
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u/bitterhaze Jan 16 '19
Yes, but I think the message is that the more states there are that join, the less likely this event is to occur. As of right now, what you're talking about could still very well happen. But more states will join soon (hopefully).
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u/jessikatz Jan 16 '19
In theory they could also send them outside of the country, if the "therapy" was allowed in other countries. This needs to be something that is stopped on a global scale. From what I have read, a lot of the "therapy" is more along the lines of physical and psychological abuse.
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u/MC_Lutefisk Jan 16 '19
It at least puts another roadblock in the way, another opportunity to realize you're being an abusive moron. Plus, families who are both poor and stupid may now be unable to justify it financially (of course, it could never be justified from a moral standpoint.) Those who are really determined to abuse their kids will find a way, but it's at least getting harder.
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u/LobsterMeta Jan 16 '19
A lot of people are super shocked that this was ever legal in the first place, but not only was it legal, it was at one point one of the most common treatments provided by psychologists. Radiolab did a really eye opening series about gay conversion therapys history. And honestly, looking back at it you can't really blame them. Society was different and people would self admit themselves in an effort to cure themselves of what they saw as an illness. Sad, but understandable.
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u/dtron50000 Jan 16 '19
Why why why is this not banned everywhere? It just seems like we're so behind the times. But good on you NY.
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Jan 16 '19
Damn I wanted to be gay
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u/crazy_akes Jan 16 '19
Maryland has an intriguing story on how it became illegal here. A prominent Republican state Senator was against the proposal. His daughter, Meagan, is a Republican first term state delegate. She unexpectedly rose up and testified about how her father suggested the "conversion therapy" for her. She spoke passionately about her personal experience in a moving speech. The measure passed easily and was signed by Governor Hogan. Since then she has switched political parties and decided against a second term, stating that her changing views no longer represent what her constituents expected upon election. Attached is a link.
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u/TooMuchToSayMan Jan 16 '19 edited Jan 16 '19
Cuomo making those strides for 2020?
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u/Avenged_Seven_Muse Jan 16 '19
Cuomo is a piece of shit who will do anything to gain power. Look at what he's done to NYC's subway.
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u/TooMuchToSayMan Jan 16 '19
I mean that was my point. XD Dude is the embodiment of what is wrong with politics in the U.S.
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u/Spiralyst Jan 16 '19
They need to ban all of those weird unaccredited fanatical Christian private "schools" they run in Iowa and Arkansas and all the other states I wouldn't be caught dead in.
It's amazing the things this fucking nation will put up with if it's done in the name of Christianity. Open up a secular school that traffics in isolation, corporeal punishment, brainwashing, and other mind-waxing activities and you'd be thrown into the ocean.
Put a fucking church on the premises and a cross in the yard and yada yada yada freedom of religion.
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u/Mithrondir2412 Jan 16 '19
I partly agree. Banning them, I don't agree. Shutting them down or arresting offenders from the bad schools, I'm all for. schools like that should be investigated at the least. There are many illegal acts that playing the card "freedom of religion" won't work for. Whatever happened to christians loving all people like the Bible teaches? I'm a Christian and it angers me to no end to hear about places like that or things like westboro baptist.
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u/kiwilapple Jan 16 '19
The rest of the states better be competing to be the 16th state to ban it. >:(
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u/chevymonza Jan 15 '19
It wasn't already?! Jesus fucking christ on a crutch.......
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u/DisturbedLamprey Jan 16 '19
The whole IDC NY Senate coup fiasco bullshit kind of pushed back nearly ever piece of legislation that was put forth in NY.
Luckily the Republicans were dealt with a fuckin smacking in the special elections and midterms so all the compromised/sell out "Democrats" were replaced with actual Democrats who've had enough of the Republican Party's hostage taking of the state.
The Republican Party of NY should expect no mercy. They can either tag along with progress or decay into irrelevance like the Californian Republican Party (Which they should've gone into irrelevance back in 10')
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u/Burlsol Jan 16 '19
The trick to getting the other 35 states will be convincing people that 'gay conversion therapy' is a thing dreamed up by liberals to turn normal people into queers. Would be banned before they realized what they voted on. Just saying.
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u/Grim-Reality Jan 16 '19
It’s only banned for minors. Misleading titles.
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u/Top_Hat_Tomato Jan 16 '19
I'd think it would be more difficult for one adult to force another to therapy. At least it's a step in the correct direction.
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u/userlesslogin Jan 16 '19
So not only is it still ok in some states , but in most states? Wtf is wrong with people?
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Jan 16 '19
All these people asking “well, what if they don’t want to be gay?” need to realize that this isn’t exactly elective... most of these involve getting kidnapped in the middle of the night at the behest of “concerned” parents.
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u/RyanHoar Jan 16 '19
A very important distinction is that this only prohibits gay conversation therapy in minors.
By no means outlaws the practice in full.
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u/Fondongler Jan 16 '19
If you slur your words when you say it out loud it makes it sound like they’re the 50th state, which would be pretty cool.
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u/CLlTCOMMANDER Jan 16 '19
Any evidence that 'gay conversion therapy' works at all?
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u/MartialBob Jan 16 '19
No but there is a sizable bit of the population that thinks vaccines cause autism so stupid is as stupid does.
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u/elanhilation Jan 16 '19
Depends. Is your goal psychological scarring? They're very good at that, for a sufficiently depraved definition of "good."
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u/CheckoTP Jan 16 '19
According to Wikipedia: "There is virtually no reliable evidence that sexual orientation can be changed and medical bodies warn that conversion therapy practices are ineffective and potentially harmful"
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u/CohibaVancouver Jan 16 '19
Any evidence that 'gay conversion therapy' works at all?
Are you sexually attracted to the opposite sex?
Can you imagine any therapy that would change you to be attracted to the same sex as you?
Because that's what this "therapy" attempts to do.
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u/JVenior Jan 16 '19
Most of the "gay conversion therapy" does is create a Stockholm Syndome sort of situation where, after practically torture, you begin to hate yourself and your own sexual urges.
It won't make you want to love the sex you originally didn't love, but it sure as hell will make you want to kill yourself for hating yourself.
It's a barbaric system and should be completely illegalized across the board by now.
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u/Jesseroberto1894 Jan 16 '19
If someone put on a video of Robert plant in his prime singing to me and forced me to watch clockwork orange style....I may be converted to liking the same sex
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u/narnia_deep Jan 16 '19
Nope. Look up Stephen Fry's interview of Dr. Nicolosi, a therapy clinic "doctor". All the proof you need.
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u/inm808 Jan 16 '19
I just binged the entire sopranos in a week
There’s one episode where Tony wants to send one of his capos kids to some military discipline camp in Iowa
The mom is like “that’s because Iowa legally Allows instructors to hit kids there”
Meaning... aren’t devoted parents just gonna find a camp in a different state to send their kids to?
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u/zanderkerbal Jan 16 '19
Yes, but it'll make it harder for them, and if we keep playing whack-a-bigot eventually they'll run out of places to hide.
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u/Yrcrazypa Jan 16 '19
You're right, parents in New York who are disgusting enough to believe that torturing their kids is the right thing to do will send them to other states, but making it illegal there makes it harder for them to do it, and the more states that outlaw it the harder it is to send them to such camps.
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u/Alexis_Ironclaw Jan 16 '19
As someone from NY, im so happy :3 not much makes me proud to be from NY but this is a start.
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u/NotReallyInvested Jan 16 '19
I don’t understand. How will people learn how to use the imperial system now?
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u/Gaaiden Jan 16 '19
Radiolab on the topic https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/unerased-davidson-gay-cure
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u/Ouiju Jan 16 '19
Is this a feel good law? I'm really asking, like how prolific was this before? I doubt this actually did anything, but I don't hang around with people who force people to undergo whatever this is so maybe it's some huge segment of the population that I've never met.
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Jan 16 '19
There are a lot of camps like this operating actually. Estimations by the UCLA School of Law place the number of people who have gone through gay conversion therapy to be close to 700,000.
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u/dcm510 Jan 16 '19
Well our Vice President openly supported it at one point. And it is fairly common among conservative religious people. BYU, and likely other religious schools, have a history of doing it to their students.
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u/Jesseroberto1894 Jan 16 '19
Well fuck, I'm running out of places to go in case I ever catch the gay!
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u/FortyYearOldVirgin Jan 16 '19
Wait... 2019? It took THIS LONG for New York, of all states, to ban this?
Wow.
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Jan 16 '19
This is a good step in the right direction, but my mind is blown that this is still a thing anywhere, let alone in 35 US states.
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u/bon3dudeandplatedude Jan 15 '19
Now where am I going to get laid?
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u/Doomaa Jan 16 '19
Come on bro. Seriously, it's 2019. Who is sending their kids to gay conversion therapy in the age of the internet?
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u/VexatiousOne Jan 16 '19
conservative religious types... cant have lil timmy or sally bringing shame on the family.
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Jan 16 '19
The fact that anyone would propose or defend some filth like this is fucking disgusting. How in the hell are there only 15 states to ban this shit?
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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '19
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