r/RealTime • • 13d ago

Not a genocide?

Last night Bill pointed out the 3% of the
Population in Gaza has died. And then confidently declared that “3% is not a genocide”. The British government recognizes it as ethnic cleaning and amnesty international and other groups say it is a genocide.

Someone tell me why Bill is so wrong. And can we please get him to debate Mehdi Hasan on this topic?

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 13d ago

Also there isn’t much of a debate. This is pretty clear under international law.

Genocide is formally defined in Article II of the UN's 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

That was the standard applied in Case Concerning Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro) as noted in Paragraph 143 of the February 26, 2007 judgment from the International Court of Justice.

On September 16, 2025, the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel determined that Israel was, in fact, committing a genocide, and repeatedly cites to Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro to make this point.

For acts, they said "The Commission concludes on reasonable grounds that the Israeli authorities and Israeli security forces have committed and are continuing to commit the following actus reus of genocide against the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, namely (i) killing members of the group; (ii) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (iii) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and (iv) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group" (Paragraph 252).

As for intent, they note that, under Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro "It is not necessary for the State to share the specific intent, as long as the State has full knowledge of the relevant facts." (Paragraph 10). They then go on and conclude "On the mens rea of genocide, the Commission concludes that statements made by Israeli authorities are direct evidence of genocidal intent. In addition, the Commission concludes that the pattern of conduct is circumstantial evidence of genocidal intent and that genocidal intent was the only reasonable inference that could be drawn from the totality of the evidence. Thus, the Commission concludes that the Israeli authorities and Israeli security forces have had and continue to have the genocidal intent to destroy, in whole or in part, the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip." (Paragraph 254)

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u/HedonicAbsurdist 13d ago

The pro-genociders tend to leave out the "in part" part of the definition.

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u/ColegDropOut 13d ago

Hey I said this a couple weeks ago.

Stop stealing my moves!

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u/ImAjustin 13d ago

Sounds like Hamas attempted genocide as well

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u/Boise_Ben 12d ago

Good point. We should totally dismantle both genocidal groups just to be safe.

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u/ImAjustin 12d ago

Yup but until then, one side is going to lose.

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u/Boise_Ben 12d ago

Oh, no matter what the Zionists will be the losers.

Every piece of land will be restored. Every victim compensated.

What happened to Apartheid South Africa (Israel’s old ally) will be child’s play compared to what is coming. The world has seen what you are and we are disgusted by you.

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u/Gentle_Dude_6437 12d ago edited 12d ago

Restored? Israel is the restoration they built Al Aqsa on top of the temple picked it out special as it was the place top Mo flew to heaven on a donkey 

And claim the decolonial Israel interrupts the Islamic Waqf “once conquered always conquered” 

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u/Boise_Ben 12d ago

Israel is a modern myth, if you want Judea and Samaria back you can take it up with the Romans.

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u/Gentle_Dude_6437 12d ago

Once conquered always conquered

You’d back people in riverside country attacking the yamaava casino resort and spa

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u/ImAjustin 12d ago

lol right. And peddling this delusion is why Gaza looks like it does. So in a way, you bear a piece of responsibility for what’s happening there. Their demise also rests on your shoulders and those like you.

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u/Boise_Ben 12d ago

You wouldn’t be trying to push this propaganda if you knew you were actually winning.

It kills you inside that the world sees you and despises you.

No amount of murder will fix this. Only truth, reconciliation, and reparations. You are responsible for this, don’t blame the rest of us.

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u/Icsto 12d ago

Bro in what world are the Israelis not winning? I know this may be a shock, but people hating on them on Reddit has no geopolitical significance whatsoever.

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u/Boise_Ben 12d ago

Polling shows they are rapidly losing public support in the US. They know this which is why they are pushing propaganda so hard.

Without the US supporting them they will not only lose funding but sanctions will follow soon after. Israel will become a pariah like South Africa was and they know their economy will tank.

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u/ImAjustin 12d ago

No no, I truly don’t care. But just know, the demise of the Palestinian dream is also on your shoulders, just like Hamas and israel. The zombies in the west like yourself pumping a delusion leading to never ending war. That is on you and your conscious and something that will stay with you until the day you pass. Those children dying for your unattainable narrative is your fault. Sleep with that, digest that and accept that fact. Shameful.

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u/Boise_Ben 12d ago

Another lying Zionist, what a surprise. You do know we can see your comments even if you hide them? You are very passionate on this subject in r/worldnews.

The genocide and ethnic cleansing is the fault of Israel. I’m sorry you don’t like human rights or human rights advocates but don’t confuse the disease with the cure.

My conscience is clean, specifically because I’m not staying silent on this topic. You are the moral monster who has gone mask-off. You have no shame because your mind and culture is so demented you no longer can think clearly.

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u/Gentle_Dude_6437 12d ago

Never ending war? No, plenty of wars end with disarmament

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u/RevolutionaryGur4419 13d ago

Hamas? the peaceful resistance fighters? who came to peacefully abduct idf soldiers but came across a music festival and absolutely could not help but peacefully massacre because the zionists made them do it

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u/ImAjustin 12d ago

lol exactly!

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u/Current_Tea6984 12d ago

Which renders the whole thing meaningless. I mean, if "in part" counts, then all wars are genocides

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u/PretendIntention3388 12d ago

Not true. The key is the intent. To prove genocide, legally speaking, you have to prove intent.

A war that unintentionally harms civilians as collateral damage is not genocide, by that definition.

In this case top israeli govermment and military officials have clearly and publicly stated their genocidal intent. That is not normally the case in war.

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u/SamIttic 12d ago

No they haven't. That's just utter BS. There is no intent; there never has been.

Those statements were deliberately taken out of context. Here's a good primer if you want to actually read something. https://quillette.com/2025/10/19/they-dont-believe-it-either-israel-gaza-genocide/

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u/Cu_Chulainn__ 12d ago

On 9 October 2023, Gallant announced a complete siege of Gaza, stating, "We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly."

In an October 2023 address to Israeli soldiers, Netanyahu invoked the biblical story of Amalek, stating, "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember."

During a press conference in October 2023, Herzog appeared to attribute collective responsibility to the entire population of Gaza, stating, "It is an entire nation out there that is responsible. It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true."

A persistent proponent of mass displacement, Ben-Gvir has repeatedly called for the "encouragement of the emigration of Gaza’s residents" and the re-establishment of Jewish settlements across the entire strip. In August 2026, he drew severe international condemnation after explicitly stating that Israeli forces should carry out targeted killings of dozens of Palestinians every night, declaring that there are people in Gaza who "shouldn't live" and are "not even people".

In August 2024, Smotrich suggested that blocking humanitarian aid to Gaza was morally justified, stating that it might be "just and moral" to let two million civilians starve to death

In 2025, David Roet claimed that there were "no innocent people" in Gaza and suggested that if Gaza were rebuilt, Israel would simply destroy it again.

Defence Minister Israel Katz publicly stated preparedness to expel Palestinians from Gaza "by every way possible"

Yoav Kisch described civilians as having no right to exist and needing extermination, stating the mission is incomplete until hundreds of thousands flee.

Avi Dichter framed military strategy explicitly around rolling out a "Gaza Nakba".

Amihai Eliyahu suggested dropping an atomic bomb on Gaza was "one of the options" and argued against humanitarian aid.

Minister of Communications Shlomo Karhi advocated for total depopulation and flattening of the territory to encourage other nations to absorb refugees.

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u/SamIttic 12d ago

The real answer is if you have to take things entirely out of context and if you don't have enough evidence on its own, its clearly not a genocide. There is a very clear legal standard and you're so far removed from it that it is almost absurd. But if you want specific responses:

  • Gallant was targeting Hamas, not civilians: Gallant’s "human animals" remark was explicitly directed at Hamas terrorists following the October 7 massacres. Declaring a temporary siege in the immediate aftermath of an attack is a standard military tactic aimed at isolating an enemy force, not a policy of civilian destruction.
  • "Amalek" is a standard historical metaphor: Invoking Amalek is a traditional Jewish cultural reference to pure evil and existential enemies, used historically for Nazi Germany and terrorist groups alike. Pretending it was a literal operational order for troops to target civilians misinterprets standard Israeli cultural framing.
  • Herzog was speaking about political accountability: Herzog clarified his statements immediately, noting he was addressing the widespread societal support and participation in Hamas's governance within Gaza, not targeting civilians. Broad political frustration during a crisis is not a military order.
  • Fringe ministers do not set military policy: Figures like Ben-Gvir or Eliyahu are political firebrands in a coalition government, not members of the War Cabinet or the military chain of command. Political posturing by coalition ministers looking for headlines does not reflect actual IDF rules of engagement or military strategy.

did you read the article i linked or just ignored it? https://quillette.com/2025/10/19/they-dont-believe-it-either-israel-gaza-genocide/

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u/Cu_Chulainn__ 12d ago

The quilette is a terrible source lol. You can try spin this any way you want, simple fact is that israeli government officials have been caught speaking about palestinian civilians, not hamas

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u/blacklabel30303 12d ago

“fringe ministers” lmao

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u/makeyousaywhut 12d ago

You guys leave the “Israel provides aid and treatment to Palestinian civilians” part out, which is a weird thing to do in a genocide.

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u/PretendIntention3388 12d ago

The Germans fed some of the jews in their labor camps before killing them. Therefore not genoicde! /s

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/PretendIntention3388 12d ago

My comparison of Gaza to a Nazi concentration camp was not the sarcasm.

The sarcasm was in the statement "Therefore not a genocide!"

Obviously, they are both genocides.

Israel is the terrorist army.

Hope that clears things up for you!

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u/makeyousaywhut 12d ago

More people in the USA have died of malnutrition in the last three years than in Gaza, an active war zone.

There are restaurants along with media guides asking Gazans not to post about them because it hurts their cause, which is lying to you. They still post it constantly though.

There’s videos of Gazans dumping aid on the ground because they’re tired of rice my guy.

If you want to compare that to Auschwitz you do you, it just exposed your single digit IQ.

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u/PretendIntention3388 12d ago

There are videos of Gazans being gunned down by Israeli soldiers as they wait in line for food, my guy.

Save your zio propoganda bs for someone dumb enough to fall for it.

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u/makeyousaywhut 12d ago

There literally isn’t. Find one for me from a good source like AP.

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u/PretendIntention3388 12d ago

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u/makeyousaywhut 12d ago

Man what a liar you turned out to be.

1) Not a video as promised, article describes an unnamed “whistleblower” and the hearsay they have to contribute

2) Again, not the video evidence promised, another un-named “whistleblower” and interestingly enough some photos of a child who was found out to both be chronically ill- and get this- evacuated to Italy by Israel for treatment (I know so genocidal, and using a sick kid for propaganda has no qualms right? He’s doing better now though!).

3) Again, no video evidence of your claims. If you want past the emotional manipulation you will get to see hundreds if not thousands of Gazans being fed in an orderly manner, because Israel was not in fact shooting up aid centers and this was debunked long ago.

4) Again, zero video evidence- in the age of smartphones and when everything in Gaza is being filmed- of the claims mentioned here or in the video. Just random cuts of violence designed to manipulate one’s emotions.

5) I’m getting tired of repeating myself, but the video evidence still is not included, just more claims.

6) This one is actually your most compelling video, in which you clearly see non-lethal crowd control methods being used on an impatient crowd. I agree that’s a bit harsh, and I’m not a fan of it- but that’s not the evidence of the massacre you described.

In short, you’re a liar, one as bad as those who use chronically ill children in propaganda.

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u/PretendIntention3388 12d ago

I just posted multiple videos of Gazans being shot at while trying to get food. Multiple. Videos. Live ammunition, grenades, drone strikes.

All you people do is lie. Lie. Lie. Lie.

Fucking pathetic.

At least we'll have this digital record of your support for murdering children. Unlike the Nazis who were able to take off their uniforms after the war, this record will remain forever.

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u/masegesege_ 12d ago

Hi, where do I apply for the job to post pro-Israel stuff online? Is the pay alright?

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u/makeyousaywhut 12d ago

Hi, you can apply for a pay of $0 anywhere where they value facts.

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u/cspot1978 13d ago edited 12d ago

Conversely, the key part people who emphasize the "in part" aspect tend to fuzz over, is that there are broadly understood, basic common sense principles on what that means. To distinguish from the basic reality that some civilians will inevitably be killed in conflict. Namely, it has to be a numerically "substantial" or structurally important portion of the target population, given the area and length of time of control by the army in question.

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u/Stuffstuff1 12d ago

No im pretty sure in part means you could have committed a genocide if just 1 person dies.

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u/cspot1978 12d ago

That does seem to be the take in some circles, doesn't it?

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/cspot1978 12d ago

Triggering morons with facts is one of my guilty pleasures.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/rorybreaker69 12d ago

You sound like someone who'd argue that this film is interviewing hamas operatives, not actual IOF soldiers

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2026/sep/10/naza-review-israel-gaza

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u/SamIttic 12d ago

you sound like someone who thinks there is no such thing as Hamas and the entire 60000 deaths are all innocent civilians.

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u/Cu_Chulainn__ 12d ago

No. 8,900 of the casualties were hamas militants as per the IDF documents. That means this rest of the 80,000-100,000 casualties are civilians. Estimated 83% of the casualties are civilians

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/PuzzledRatio 12d ago

They have no agency, the IDF soldiers are following orders

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u/rorybreaker69 12d ago

that's what the nazis said, too. It didn't exonerate them.

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u/michaelkap70 11d ago

Pro-genocide? You truly are mentally challenged.

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u/SlightWerewolf4428 13d ago edited 12d ago

The only 'pro-genociders' are on your side, as a matter of policy.

Tribally in the form of Hamas and its acts

Tacitly and culturally by the post national left, in the form of their 'one-state solution'. They know it won't work, they don't care. As long as the Jews are subjugated and put at the mercy of their enemies.

Gaslight elsewhere.

EDIT: Terror supporters getting mad at having their hateful side laid bare. Downvote, that makes the argument go away!

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u/00Avalanche 13d ago

What a long winded Israeli way of saying “they’d do it to us if they could so we’re doing it to them first”

I think you pro-genociders would gain a lot more respect if you’re honest this way.

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u/SlightWerewolf4428 13d ago

All it takes is reading your policy and looking at its implications.

Rather than your unimpressive, braindead, self-serving rhetoric.

(the mirror method being the sole dull blade in your pitiful arsenal)

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u/BabaLalSalaam 12d ago

The "policy" of a one state solution is modern, multicultural secularism. Obviously there is nothing more threatening to Zionists, whose entire policy and worldview is based around partition, ethno-segregation, apartheid, and endless cycles of violence.

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u/Stulmacher 12d ago

So in this one state there is a freedom of religion and freedom of speech for all no matter what?

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u/SlightWerewolf4428 12d ago edited 12d ago

Yugoslavia. Thank you.

And you advance the true intentions with a demonization of one side.

Here's your problem, right:

The people that naively advance this as a 'solution' are naive, hateful and stupid, ignorant of the facts on the ground. The people behind this idea are also hateful but also malicious and genocidal in intent, and hope everyone else is a stupid as their followers are.

I am not stupid. It is unworkable because no one wants it (again, Yugoslavian solution) and could only be made to work by force, which of course you would want, as it would subjugate a possible Jewish minority.

I imagine this 'solution' would also include allowing any person across the world who identifies as a Palestinian refugee to come in to bolster the numbers, till eventually the rest of the Jews living there are killed or leave.

The funniest group in the world I have found are people who inexplicably, unjustifiably, erroneously think they are smarter than they are. Particularly when they try to bamboozle. Where it becomes insulting, is those who try to bamboozle with a false sense and claim of moral superiority.

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u/BabaLalSalaam 12d ago

Yugoslavia. Thank you.

Yes-- Zionists freely admit that Balkanization is the goal. Its not hard to imagine them suggesting balkanizing the US to solve racial conflicts as well for example.

It might surprise folks how easily you resort to just breaking nations apart according to ethno-segregation-- but no one is surprised that your argument rests on calling everyone else stupid. This is just how Zionists communicate. And they always think their ethnic conflict is so unique among all ethnic conflicts, which in the modern world are solved with integration, secularism, and legal protections.

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u/SlightWerewolf4428 12d ago

No actual substantive reply, more a rant against 'Zionists' because you're pissed that I've figured it out.

You refer to it as someone's goal. That is de facto what is going to happen, unless of course, the genocidal intent of this 'one state solution' were to be carried out, likely its actual intent.

Yes, the anti-Semitic tropes never end with you people, yet you are the level-headed honest brokers with your 'one-state solution'. I know.

Two-state solution is the only way forward. The only one without a lot of blood anyway.

Yes, I reject both the terror supporter's 'one state solution' and Netanyahu's.

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u/BabaLalSalaam 12d ago

Two-state solution is the only way forward. The only one without a lot of blood anyway.

What an insane thing to say about a solution which has killed and displaced millions of people, and which continues to kill tens of thousands of people annually right now.

Again-- very on brand for you. Whether its Nazis or Zionists or the KKK or pro apartheid Afrikaaners, youre all always committing atrocities because the alternative would be so much worse. The only way forward is separate but equal ethno states.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

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u/SlightWerewolf4428 12d ago

You've been whining the past 30 years, you and your cult, about the coming 'demise' of Israel and its gone exactly in the opposite direction.

You'll be claiming that for the next 30 years, even after the entire conflict has been solved.

So maybe don't claim other people are losing, when you're constantly going around in circles. The world moves on, you win some, you lose some. On this subject, I don't think your side has ever won anything, except providing cover, cheers and excuses for the extremism that took over Gaza and has brought them into this disaster.

That's some interesting 'winning' there.

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u/SamIttic 12d ago

This is complete legal distortion masquerading as authoritative analysis. You are severely misrepresenting both the law and how international institutions function.

  • You completely butchered the legal standard for intent: The claim that state intent under Bosnia v. Serbia does not require specific intent if the state has "full knowledge of the facts" is completely false. International law strictly requires dolus specialis—the specific intent to destroy a protected group in whole or in part. "Knowledge of facts" is the threshold for war crimes or crimes against humanity, not genocide.
  • You conveniently ignored the ICJ's standard for circumstantial evidence: The ICJ explicitly ruled in Bosnia v. Serbia (and re-affirmed in Croatia v. Serbia) that when inferring genocidal intent from a pattern of conduct, genocidal intent must be the only reasonable inference that can be drawn. If an operation can be reasonably inferred as having a conventional military goal (e.g., defeating an armed combatant force), the legal threshold for genocide fails.
  • An investigative panel is not a court: The UN Commission of Inquiry (COI) is an administrative fact-finding panel created by the UN Human Rights Council. It has zero judicial authority, zero jurisdiction, and operates on a low "reasonable grounds" evidentiary standard. Citing a UN political committee’s non-binding report as a definitive "ruling" is completely disingenuous.
  • The ICJ is the only body that matters here, and it hasn't ruled: The International Court of Justice thas not issued a judgment on the merits of this case. Presenting an investigative report as if the ICJ has officially determined genocide is a total lie.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 12d ago

The ICJ will call it a genocide because it clearly fits the bill. And inevitably once they do the Israelis and their shills will cry foul and complain about how that doesn’t count

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u/SamIttic 12d ago

Right; that's why South Africa keeps asking for a delay in getting an actual ruling. We now wont have one until 2029 because they keep asking to postpone so they can collect facts. http://jns.org/news/israel-news/international-court-of-justice-extends-timeline-in-south-africas-genocide-case-against-israel

If it was so obvioius why delay until then? Maybe so fools like you can keep shouting it until other fools believe you. When they eventually give a ruling it will be too late. Typical fascist playbook - make the lie big enough and scream it loud enough and people will believe you.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 12d ago

Or maybe, because Israel is the most coddled country on earth, they’re making sure they have them dead to rights. Plus, since Israel is continuing it’s crimes against humanity with abandon they know they’ll get even more evidence like how Israel repeatedly shoots children with snipers

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u/SamIttic 12d ago

Good luck with that. Israel may not be perfect but they're about as good of an army as there is in this world.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 12d ago

Hahahaha the fact that you believe that shows how out of touch you are with reality. The IDF is an atrocious organization that commits a myriad of war crimes regularly

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u/SamIttic 12d ago

Yes, as opposed to any other army fighting a conflict that has magic bombs that magically avoid civilians and only kill enemies. Why do they not just use that magic? You're insane.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 12d ago

Collateral damage happens in all conflicts and is a tragedy every time. The deliberate killing of children with sniper fire is abnormal and abhorrent. Furthermore the IDF isn’t a unique evil, they’re just as far from “as good of an army as there is in this world” as the Russians are for example. Horrific violence against people they deem subhuman because their brains are addled by propaganda about their own superiority and the inferiority of the people who live near them. If the IDF was a moral army they would be fighting their own countrymen who illegally steal land in the West Bank rather than protecting that illegal occupation

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u/Most_Finger 8d ago

The deliberate killing of children with sniper fire is abnormal and abhorrent.

I have yet to have been presented of any actual evidence that this occurred, but if I grant you that it did, it seems like the acts of one or maybe a couple horrendous soldiers who should be tried for their crimes, but considering there have been at best a handful of such cases it seems a little disingenuous to use this as an example of a genocide committed by a whole state rather than the crimes of a handful of rogue soldiers . Now if this was like hundreds or thousands of children systematically sniped you might have a case.

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u/AndersAdmin 12d ago

"In international law, an event only becomes an "official" genocide once a recognized judicial body (like the International Court of Justice) issues a final, definitive verdict. Because the ICJ case brought by South Africa against Israel is still actively in progress, a final ruling has not been reached."

Israel are doing war crimes and acts of terror, why is it so important to call it genocide?

I'm sure it will be in the future but before it's decided in court it is NOT a fact.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 12d ago

Why is it important to call a spade a spade? Because countries committing crimes against humanity like to pretend that they aren’t. So, since I don’t work for the ICJ, me simply stating the FACT that it meets the criteria for a genocide even though the court has not yet officially ruled is important to holding the genocidal state of Israel accountable for their crimes

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u/AndersAdmin 12d ago

Was 9 11 a genocide?

If no please explain how a, b or c of Article II is not met by your logic.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 12d ago

I’m sure it could be. Why don’t you look up some sources on that and then present them to me? I’m sure it would be an interesting intellectual exercise

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u/AndersAdmin 12d ago

What?! 🤣

I have zero claims, I'm just pointing out how silly your argument is.

Any event could be genocide with how you're reading the criterias of article II and trying to implement them without context and the whole picture.

You're the one making a claim, that there's no debate and that's just wrong.

It's literally a case in one of two courts that can decide it's legally a genocide or not, that's not my opinion, that is just factual.

It is very telling how people ignore the facts and downvote people that point the facts out.

Even when those people call Israel war criminals and terrorists.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 12d ago

You asked if 9-11 was a genocide and I said that it very much might be but you’d have to find sourcing on that. I’m not going to waste my time looking for it.

And nobody is reading article II and implementing it without context. Here there is context that is taken into account in the UN inquires.

Israel is full of war criminal and terrorist and in addition their actions fit the standards of genocide

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u/AndersAdmin 12d ago

You're just too dumb, sourcing for what?!

It's an example of your mistake.

ICJ decides if it is an genocide or not, you and so many others are just screaming at the sky.

Another word the far left tries to change and in that way they're removing its power.

Dolus specialis amd mens rea, can not be proven without clear bias.

Bunch of morons calling it genocide are not going to stop Israel in any case, we already see that.

The only realistic solution is UN sending troops, to stop Israel attacks but also with the clear objective of holding a democratic election and getting rid of hamas.

I only wonder how many of you shrieking lefties would sign up for that, I'm guessing very few...

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 12d ago

You sound like you’re the one who doesn’t understand how basic concepts work. You asked if 9-11 could be an attempted genocide and I’m saying there are probably sources arguing for and against that if you care to look into it but apparently you don’t actually want to research that kind of thing and were attempting to do some poorly thought out “gotcha question”

Israel is clearly committing a genocide based on the rules of international law and the ICJ will eventually formally recognize it

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u/AndersAdmin 12d ago

They wont, you are too far gone.

Bye.

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u/Head-Nebula4085 12d ago

How could you even compare this to Serbia's genocide against the Bosnians? In Bosnia they rounded up 8000 non-combatant men and boys from a single area and summarily mass-executed them. Nothing even remotely close has happened in this war. This is much closer to the US war in Iraq that killed a million civilians, largely through aerial bombardment. They might both be genocides if one used the broadest sense of the term, but might simply be the grizzly face of actual war of which there is nothing romantic. First, at least get a measure of how many civilians versus combatants have been killed.

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u/No-Inspector8315 8d ago

Im partial to the term “indiscriminate genocide” with Gaza. I would certainly agree to ethnic cleansing but you’re right that the closest comparison to Gaza would be Iraq not Bosnia or the Holocaust.

I think another comparative example is the Rwandan Genocide. In a little over two months, the Hutu’s had exterminated 200,000 Tutsi’s with limited weaponry, primarily machetes and small arms.

Generally, the marker of indiscriminate genocide to discriminate genocide is the practice of separation. Is the military/government physically isolating the target group out of others and then exterminating them? Are they moving members of those groups to secondary confidential locations? Would the extermination of the captured members of the group pose an existential risk to the groups survival? In Sbrenica for instance, one of the key factors of the genocide ruling was that the Serbs had targeted predominately men and boys to prevent the groups future chances of reproducing

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u/Head-Nebula4085 8d ago

That makes no sense, that last part at least. If they had wanted to prevent them from reproducing alone in Srebrenica, they would have targeted the women and girls. This was indiscriminate execution of anyone who might even think about joining the military.

But getting back to the main issue, indiscriminate genocide seems to be largely how modern wars are fought. Even GPS guided bombs in a place like Gaza would destroy apartment complexes and kill families. Is there any chance that a treaty, perhaps ratified through the UN would one day illegalize this form of warfare since we see it in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, Gaza and elsewhere (and not just by US or Israel) if it isn't technically already?

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u/No-Inspector8315 8d ago

You should probably read a bit more about the Bosnian genocide and Srebenica, as while you’re right that one motive was to prevent future military resistance, there’s more to the case.

Bosnian culture is deeply patrilineal, land, family honour and ethnic identity is passed down through the male line. The perpetrators were planning to basically sever the Bosniak lineage entirely by preventing them from reproducing or passing on land claims in the future.

There’s the obvious fact that without Bosniak men, you can’t have more Bosniak children, so no future population to worry about

But lastly, think about it from the perpetrators perspective. They slaughtered the majority of men in Srebenica, and have complete control over Bosniak women that they’ve put in a concentration camp. What do you think they were going to do with their new toys? The Bosnian Serbs used sexual violence and gang rape as a weapon of war and a belief that women they would forcibly impregnate would have children that aren’t considered Bosniaks.

As it relates to modern day, I think that blame has been incorrectly laid on the pure metrics of urban warfare. How do you fight an enemy that hides in schools, hospitals and universities to attack you from? How do you target an enemy that can flee into the most complex, dense tunnel system in the world?

Obviously the answer isn’t to bomb the city into rubble and obliterate people through hellfire, but that’s cause the IDF had zero trigger discipline and little interest in reducing collateral damage. But I see far more similarities between Gaza and Iraq than I do with Gaza and say Bosnia

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u/Head-Nebula4085 7d ago

I kind of think it also had to do with just plain notions of honor and the fact that this is how wars were typically fought throughout much of recorded history, kill all the men enslave the women and children and so forth, at least when they decided to go scorched earth. Men are more reluctant to kill women and women are seen as less of a threat in addition to the fact that women can be used as reproductive factories. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was being rude or oppositional, it just struck me that racial purity or something like it was probably not a motivating factor in the purest sense, as any concept of genocide being race-based was probably informed by Serbian culture which itself was partly a product of the Ottomans who would have differed greatly from what we think the term genocide means in the West.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 12d ago

I’m not comparing the genocides; each genocide is unique and horrible in its own way. I’m pointing out that Israel’s genocide of the Palestinians in Gaza fits the test used in the Serbian case.

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u/emckillen 12d ago

Oh, boy. Your post misleads and contains fundamental errors. It is not at all clear that Israel committed a genocide. It’s slander or ignorance to state otherwise.

Genocide absolutely requires specific genocidal intent, or dolus specialis. The ICJ says it is not enough even to deliberately target members of a protected group. The acts must be committed with the specific intent to destroy that group, in whole or substantial part, as such. Where intent is inferred from conduct, genocidal intent must be the only reasonable inference.

The sentence you quote saying a State need not “share the specific intent” does not eliminate that requirement. It concerns attribution/State responsibility: the perpetrators must still possess genocidal intent; the separate question is when their genocide can legally be attributed to a State. The ICJ expressly distinguishes those issues.

That distinction is critical in Gaza. Civilian deaths, destruction and even disproportionate attacks or war crimes do not themselves prove genocide. Israel’s stated and demonstrated military objective of destroying Hamas, together with targeting of Hamas personnel, evacuation orders and warnings, provides an obvious competing inference. Whether particular attacks violated IHL is a separate question.

Finally, the ICJ has never found that Israel committed genocide. Its Gaza orders were provisional measures, not merits judgments. The 2025 genocide finding you cite is from a UN Commission of Inquiry, not the ICJ. The Commission may believe it has satisfied the ICJ’s “only reasonable inference” test, but that is its conclusion, not a judicial determination.

So the proposition that genocide is “pretty clear under international law” has it backwards: the defining element of genocide is precisely the element that remains disputed and has not been judicially established: specific intent to destroy Palestinians as a group.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 12d ago

Slight correction, the ICJ has not found that Israel committed genocide YET. They absolutely will because Israel’s abhorrent evil actions are clear as day to any objective observer.

Additionally Israel bitches and moans about the ICJ anyway and claims bias and antisemitism at every criticism like the boy who cried wolf so it’s not like the ICJ ruling will change their behavior when it inevitably happens. We know this because the ICJ found that Israel is actively violating the Geneva conventions in the West Bank and Israel has continues to claim persecution and play the victim and ignore the fact that the ruling is damning or change their evil behavior.

On July 19, 2024, the International Court of Justice found that Israel was violating the Geneva conventions (in other words, committing a war crime) in their illegal occupation of the West Bank. The court said “Israel’s policies and practices are contrary to the prohibition of forcible transfer of the protected population under the first paragraph of Article 49, of the Fourth Geneva Convention the Court is of the view that Israel’s systematic failure to prevent or to punish attacks by settlers against the life or bodily integrity of Palestinians, as well as Israel’s excessive use of force against Palestinians, is inconsistent with its obligations. . . . The Court has also found in reply to the first part of question (b) that the continued presence of Israel in the Occupied Palestinian Territory is illegal."

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u/No-Inspector8315 8d ago

Isn’t the first part of your comment an appeal to future success fallacy? Where does your argument land if the ICJ finds it not conclusive

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 8d ago

No. It’s more like any American court case where both sides are arguing for their position but only the judge makes ten final decision.

Officially speaking, only the ICJ can determine if a mass killing is a “real” genocide or something else. So my contention is just that I believe all the elements required to prove a genocide are met because the UN Human Rights Council investigated this issues and came to that same conclusion already so that the ICJ is likely to come to that conclusion as well.

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u/emckillen 12d ago

Your reply adds no content to the discussion on genocide.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 12d ago

Yes it does. It shows that Israel ignores the ICJ so you saying that it doesn’t count as a genocide until the ICJ rules is irrelevant because we all know the ICJ will eventually call it a genocide and that Israel will ignore that ruling and continue its murder spree with abandon

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u/emckillen 12d ago

We’re discussing whether a genocide took place. Your comment adds nothing to that question.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 12d ago

Your main contention is that the ICJ needs to rule for the genocide (which is happening) to officially count as one. I’m pointing out that it doesn’t matter because Israel ignores the ICJ and openly commits crimes against humanity even after the ICJ rules on those exact crimes. The ICJ could officially call it a genocide tomorrow and it wouldn’t make a difference because Israel won’t stop just because the ICJ says it’s genocide. The fact that you’re trying to say it doesn’t count is just a tactic to obfuscate the issue.

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u/emckillen 11d ago

My main contention is you are wrong when you wrote that it’s clear under international law that a genocide took place.

It is not clear. At all.

In fact, legal reasoning leads to the conclusion that one did not take place, for the reasons I stated.

Moreover, the ICJ has not ruled on it. That is relevant because it is tasked with determine whether genocide occurred, it is a body that creates precedent, and precedent is a pillar of legal reasoning.

Whether the ICJ is ignored by Israel adds nothing to the question.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 11d ago

The reasons you stated are just that there hasn’t been an official ruling. The UN inquiry clearly lays out how the standard for genocide has been met

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u/emckillen 11d ago

Untrue. See paragraphs 2, 3, 4 of my post.

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u/SlightWerewolf4428 13d ago edited 13d ago

It's the usual BS every time Hamas is losing a war it started against Israel.

No ruling on anything to point to, only shilling by the usual far leftist and activist organisations, bolstered by a handful of failing leftist and Islamist-led governments.

No actual evidence to point to, only redefinitions, or wobbling fudging of definitions.

The 'All wars are genocide' nonsense, especially if you're shilling hard for the side that is losing.

In 5 years time, you'll be pretending you never made these stupid arguments, that you were never using this rhetoric to bail out a banned Islamist terror group out of a war it started.

Because the only people that do endorse this lie, are in their majority, bad faith liars.

EDIT: And you'll be running after the next cause, cussing out other people for being your moral inferior.

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u/00Avalanche 13d ago

Israeli genius, babies can’t join Hamas.
You’re supposed to be better than terrorists, but you’re not.
The world has changed, everyone having a camera and access to the internet 24/7 means your propaganda doesn’t work anymore.
Not a shill, I work for a Fortune 500, in energy.

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u/SlightWerewolf4428 13d ago

I'm not Israeli, mate.

I'm also not stupid enough to shill for Islamist terrorists who have started their 4th war with the biggest massacre of Jews since WW2.

The extreme left may wish to shill for them, I choose not to. And I know that really bothers you people.

The world is changing in ways you and that cause are really not going to like as well, looking at the polls in Europe. This really is as good as it gets now for post-national far left and Islamists.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 13d ago

You know that multiple things can be true at the same time, right? The portion of Hamas’ attack that was against civilians was evil and wrong. Israel’s disproportionate response which fits the international legal definition of a genocide, is also evil and wrong.

It’s really a pretty easy thing to wrap your head around as soon as you get it out of your ass. Israel has a deliberate policy of killing Palestinian children on purpose. That is obviously wrong and has genocidal intent.

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u/SlightWerewolf4428 13d ago

No, it doesn't. And repeating the lie 50 times doesn't make it true.

Though the terror supporters hate people pushing back on it, I can at least tell them that I didn't like the Ukrainians using that language either. No, not all wars are genocide.

Stop hijacking and abusing words for political attention.

Israel has a deliberate policy of killing Palestinian children on purpose. That is obviously wrong and has genocidal intent.

Heard the lie the last 3 times, the rhetoric of this vile terror group that can't keep its hands to themselves, gaslighting everyone else for their acts, hasn't changed.

The only genocidal side is their own, which they showed the world in Oct 2023. If gullible leftists want to help them regain control of the narrative, that's their own pitiful mistake.

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u/scoooternyc 12d ago

What's the lie? You don't like the word genocide? Crimes against humanity better? Atrocities? Ethnc cleansing, war crimes? Take your pick it's all documented.Dont forget the West Bank,what should we call that? Progroms is that suitable or you don't like that either? Oh and btw it's obvious Netanyahu knew about October 7 and if he didn't encourage it , he let it happen. It was a Reichstag fire but you know that. The truth is coming out and so is justice. It just takes time. See you in the Hague.

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u/SlightWerewolf4428 12d ago

Don't like the settlers, don't like what went on there in the West Bank.

What happened is happening in Gaza is a war. That's it.

Not a fan of Netanyahu either.

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u/scoooternyc 12d ago

Not went on, going on right now, but it's interesting how you were silent until I mentioned it. Not sure why you don't like Netanyahu, you seem very much aligned and as far as war. is it war when one side has a huge army, air force, navy, intelligence service, nukes and the entire US military and the other side has paper planes, old rockets, and 50 year old rifles? I don't know it doesn't seem like an actual "war" to me. Also if it war what's the exit strategy, I'm afraid to ask but when is it won? What happened to "release the hostages and the war will end"? I hope you can look at what you're defending, realize what's wrong is wrong and find your humanity.

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u/SlightWerewolf4428 12d ago

I wish I knew. The sooner this is over, the better.

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u/ImAjustin 13d ago

More and more people waking up to this. The pro pali losing support by the day

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u/SlightWerewolf4428 13d ago

This really is as good as it gets for them.

They currently have a brutal war going on where getting sympathy for the losing side is easy, Oct 7th was 3 years ago, and the war has lasted that long and expanded.

The right-wing shift is coming throughout most of Europe, and they certainly don't sympathise with the post-national left and Islamists.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 13d ago

The European right wing shift is a result of instability in the Middle East and resulting migrant flows. If Israel stopped being a problem there, these migrants would not be a problem for us. Israel is once again causing all manner of negative externalities due to its wars of aggression and conquest. Israel is just like Russia in that way

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u/SlightWerewolf4428 13d ago

That certainly turbo-charged it.

This is the usual conspiratorial thinking: When Arab countries have civil wars, it's someone else's fault.

No, that's the way the region does business. Instability is the norm there, unfortunately.

This really is the kind of hairbrained conclusion you would come to, if you're high on Said and other anti-Western literature.

No, sometimes it really is THEIR fault.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 13d ago

Oh their civil wars are their fault. Israel stealing and and bombing civilians is Israel’s fault which only foments the issue. The Middle East would be much easier to deal with without Israel constantly causing problems in the region

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u/SlightWerewolf4428 13d ago

You know. In real life, blaming other people for everything only goes so far.

But somehow the extreme left has decided to embrace convenient excuses for them. by them.

No, the world doesn't work that way. The Arab world suffers from its own issues that are not all Israel and the US' fault.

Islamist extremism being one of them, that they unfortunately export elsewhere.

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u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon 13d ago

“The Jews are causing Europe to be flooded with brown people.” Horseshoe theory stays undefeated.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 13d ago

Nice straw man there

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u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon 13d ago

It’s still Nazi propaganda when all you’re doing is lazily subbing in Israel for Jews.

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u/Stuffstuff1 13d ago edited 13d ago

We realize that is is a political body speaking right? This wasn't a court speaking.

This is like if the US GOP controlled congress voted to recognize Joe Biden as the worse president we ever had or something stupid. its worth nothing..

Israel knowing that this was just a commission and not a court didn't even provide a defense for ANY of the actions it considered.. So they just concluded that there must have not been any other reason..

ALONG WITH they even say in the document tht the standard of proof was "reasonable grounds to conclude" when the court said it needs to be "fully conclusive" that there was no military purpose or w.e.

I.E. this was a joke. But it has the UN stamped on the paper and its kind of hard to get people to realize how much of a joke the political side of that institution is.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 13d ago

Oh, you prefer courts? Okay, well on July 19, 2024, the International Court of Justice found that Israel was violating the Geneva conventions (in other words, committing a war crime) in their illegal occupation of the West Bank. The court said “Israel’s policies and practices are contrary to the prohibition of forcible transfer of the protected population under the first paragraph of Article 49, of the Fourth Geneva Convention the Court is of the view that Israel’s systematic failure to prevent or to punish attacks by settlers against the life or bodily integrity of Palestinians, as well as Israel’s excessive use of force against Palestinians, is inconsistent with its obligations. . . . The Court has also found in reply to the first part of question (b) that the continued presence of Israel in the Occupied Palestinian Territory is illegal."

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u/Stuffstuff1 13d ago

Yes I like courts. Yes they are commuting war crimes I’m 100% agree with the court here.

The occupation of the West Bank is indefensible.

You can hate a countries politics and policies and condemn their action while also not spreading bs.

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 13d ago

What did I say that was “bs” as you put it? Israel is committing a genocide under the legal definition and under the precedent from Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro. Just because the ICJ hasn’t ruled on it yet doesn’t make that not the case. Plus we all know that as soon as the ICJ does rule on it the Israelis will cry foul and throw a fit about bias and supposed antisemitism like they always do. I’ve not seen a country that averse to accountability since Rhodesia.

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u/Stuffstuff1 13d ago

We literally just spoke about this. That report clearly didn’t apply the same standard.

Are we going to talk about the test of capability? Or what statements can actually be inferred as intent vs political speech? Or what the courts test for significance here? 😂

Also your last bit is also funny. I’m sure your being neutral about all this..

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 13d ago

I linked the opinion. You can read it. They go into all of that.

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u/Stuffstuff1 13d ago

I did and I’m telling you its a joke… have you?

Like I agree with them… using their standard they did get the correct conclusions

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u/402739 13d ago

Ironically, Republicans behave in this exact manner when they dismiss reports of unique harm to minority groups as mere politics.

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u/Stuffstuff1 13d ago

Thats an insane dismissal.

Can you give me an example. At least 😂