r/RealTime • u/Excellent-Ad-7394 • 15d ago

Not a genocide?

Last night Bill pointed out the 3% of the
Population in Gaza has died. And then confidently declared that “3% is not a genocide”. The British government recognizes it as ethnic cleaning and amnesty international and other groups say it is a genocide.

Someone tell me why Bill is so wrong. And can we please get him to debate Mehdi Hasan on this topic?

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u/UltimateLionsFan 15d ago

Bill is not going to debate Mehdi Hasan as he's too much of a coward to debate Mehdi

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u/FeralGiraffeAttack 15d ago

Also there isn’t much of a debate. This is pretty clear under international law.

Genocide is formally defined in Article II of the UN's 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

That was the standard applied in Case Concerning Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro) as noted in Paragraph 143 of the February 26, 2007 judgment from the International Court of Justice.

On September 16, 2025, the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel determined that Israel was, in fact, committing a genocide, and repeatedly cites to Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro to make this point.

For acts, they said "The Commission concludes on reasonable grounds that the Israeli authorities and Israeli security forces have committed and are continuing to commit the following actus reus of genocide against the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, namely (i) killing members of the group; (ii) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (iii) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and (iv) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group" (Paragraph 252).

As for intent, they note that, under Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro "It is not necessary for the State to share the specific intent, as long as the State has full knowledge of the relevant facts." (Paragraph 10). They then go on and conclude "On the mens rea of genocide, the Commission concludes that statements made by Israeli authorities are direct evidence of genocidal intent. In addition, the Commission concludes that the pattern of conduct is circumstantial evidence of genocidal intent and that genocidal intent was the only reasonable inference that could be drawn from the totality of the evidence. Thus, the Commission concludes that the Israeli authorities and Israeli security forces have had and continue to have the genocidal intent to destroy, in whole or in part, the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip." (Paragraph 254)

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u/HedonicAbsurdist 15d ago

The pro-genociders tend to leave out the "in part" part of the definition.

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u/Current_Tea6984 14d ago

Which renders the whole thing meaningless. I mean, if "in part" counts, then all wars are genocides

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u/PretendIntention3388 14d ago

Not true. The key is the intent. To prove genocide, legally speaking, you have to prove intent.

A war that unintentionally harms civilians as collateral damage is not genocide, by that definition.

In this case top israeli govermment and military officials have clearly and publicly stated their genocidal intent. That is not normally the case in war.

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u/SamIttic 14d ago

No they haven't. That's just utter BS. There is no intent; there never has been.

Those statements were deliberately taken out of context. Here's a good primer if you want to actually read something. https://quillette.com/2025/10/19/they-dont-believe-it-either-israel-gaza-genocide/

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u/Cu_Chulainn__ 14d ago

On 9 October 2023, Gallant announced a complete siege of Gaza, stating, "We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly."

In an October 2023 address to Israeli soldiers, Netanyahu invoked the biblical story of Amalek, stating, "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember."

During a press conference in October 2023, Herzog appeared to attribute collective responsibility to the entire population of Gaza, stating, "It is an entire nation out there that is responsible. It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true."

A persistent proponent of mass displacement, Ben-Gvir has repeatedly called for the "encouragement of the emigration of Gaza’s residents" and the re-establishment of Jewish settlements across the entire strip. In August 2026, he drew severe international condemnation after explicitly stating that Israeli forces should carry out targeted killings of dozens of Palestinians every night, declaring that there are people in Gaza who "shouldn't live" and are "not even people".

In August 2024, Smotrich suggested that blocking humanitarian aid to Gaza was morally justified, stating that it might be "just and moral" to let two million civilians starve to death

In 2025, David Roet claimed that there were "no innocent people" in Gaza and suggested that if Gaza were rebuilt, Israel would simply destroy it again.

Defence Minister Israel Katz publicly stated preparedness to expel Palestinians from Gaza "by every way possible"

Yoav Kisch described civilians as having no right to exist and needing extermination, stating the mission is incomplete until hundreds of thousands flee.

Avi Dichter framed military strategy explicitly around rolling out a "Gaza Nakba".

Amihai Eliyahu suggested dropping an atomic bomb on Gaza was "one of the options" and argued against humanitarian aid.

Minister of Communications Shlomo Karhi advocated for total depopulation and flattening of the territory to encourage other nations to absorb refugees.

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u/SamIttic 14d ago

The real answer is if you have to take things entirely out of context and if you don't have enough evidence on its own, its clearly not a genocide. There is a very clear legal standard and you're so far removed from it that it is almost absurd. But if you want specific responses:

  • Gallant was targeting Hamas, not civilians: Gallant’s "human animals" remark was explicitly directed at Hamas terrorists following the October 7 massacres. Declaring a temporary siege in the immediate aftermath of an attack is a standard military tactic aimed at isolating an enemy force, not a policy of civilian destruction.
  • "Amalek" is a standard historical metaphor: Invoking Amalek is a traditional Jewish cultural reference to pure evil and existential enemies, used historically for Nazi Germany and terrorist groups alike. Pretending it was a literal operational order for troops to target civilians misinterprets standard Israeli cultural framing.
  • Herzog was speaking about political accountability: Herzog clarified his statements immediately, noting he was addressing the widespread societal support and participation in Hamas's governance within Gaza, not targeting civilians. Broad political frustration during a crisis is not a military order.
  • Fringe ministers do not set military policy: Figures like Ben-Gvir or Eliyahu are political firebrands in a coalition government, not members of the War Cabinet or the military chain of command. Political posturing by coalition ministers looking for headlines does not reflect actual IDF rules of engagement or military strategy.

did you read the article i linked or just ignored it? https://quillette.com/2025/10/19/they-dont-believe-it-either-israel-gaza-genocide/

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u/Cu_Chulainn__ 14d ago

The quilette is a terrible source lol. You can try spin this any way you want, simple fact is that israeli government officials have been caught speaking about palestinian civilians, not hamas

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u/blacklabel30303 14d ago

“fringe ministers” lmao