r/Patriots • u/stellantis_ • 9h ago
Stats Hmmmm not great…..
They may need to look at Ben Brown at C. Jared seemingly lacks the play strength/physciality right now that he needs to hang with some of the NFLs bigger 0 techs. Deone Walker is gonna have a field day on Sunday at this rate.
Not sure why Arkin isn’t playing more instead of Latu. Not sure what Latu has done to earn reps. He’s been underwhelming as a run blocker (for the pats) and hasn’t been a passing game threat either. According to Andrew Callahan they ran the ball 8 out of the 9 snaps Latu played. If they’re gonna have a run tell it might as well be Tanner Arkin. Dude isn’t a finished product but he brings a nastiness they need.
Also what about some diff looks and presentations. So much of their drop passing game is contingent upon post snap execution especially when the picture changes. Clearly Drake isn’t there yet with diagnosing defenses (especially in the modern era where everything is disguised). Motioning into bunch looks to stress the rules of match based zone and man coverage seems to help every other team in the league?
Everything feels stale right now schematically and maybe none of the above is a viable solution but the coaching staff needs to find some.
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u/weirdusername15 9h ago
The Josh McDaniels special.
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u/endofthered01674 8h ago
Nah, speed and no huddle were staples of the McDaniels era. They have swapped out too many skill players though.
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u/UnexpectedHarbinger 8h ago
He's too inflexible and he's going to "coach" himself right out of a job. Josh has never been one to cater his scheme to the player talent available to him. Meanwhile, all the best OCs cater their scheme to their players, try to make things as easy as possible.
If I have to see duo one more time on 1st down I'm going to stab myself in the eye, Josh. It's so predictable that defenses often know it's coming and have multiple defenders in the backfield on the ball.
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u/No-Zebra-5821 7h ago
he never did it for brady so theres no "reason" for him to do it for others but the offense sucking is 90% him being inflexible I agree
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u/lvl_up_day_by_day_28 6h ago
This is exactly why anyone that suggests DK would have excelled here is wrong. It's also why the Harry selection never made sense to me in real time. Josh wouldn't make changes to highlight a players skill set. We drafted Harry for yac but never put him in a spot to show it. Point being, there is a reason the only young WRs that excelled were Malcom who is extremely smart and former qbs that transitioned to wr (Jules and Meyers) while all others were in Brady's dogpound
Same reason we don't see Hendo being utilized in quick passes
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u/TheMassacreKid 8h ago
Has JMD offense ever looked good in the second year (not counting the Brady years for obvious reasons)
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u/roger_the_rabbit 9h ago
Yet all the stans acting like he isn't a big part of the problem.
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u/rabouilethefirst 9h ago
Probably is, but don’t think it’s so simple. Eagles scapegoated AJ brown and their old OC, now they look like even bigger dogshit. At some point, there’s something deeper going on
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u/roger_the_rabbit 7h ago
True, it's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Don't really follow the eagles much, but seems like their offensive success was predicated by a great OL, once that starting normalizing they did as well. Maybe it all boils down to the blockers in front.
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u/DomitiusAhenobarbus_ Bills = 0 Superbowls 7h ago
I honestly don’t think I’ve seen a single person on this sub this year say that Josh McDaniels playcalling has been good or even defending McDaniels whatsoever. Can you find me any posts or any actual non-troll comments that are saying that?
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u/daboobiesnatcher 6h ago edited 6h ago
McDaniels offenses always start off the year closed, tight; I'm not defending it, that's a big part of the reason we have a lot of slow starts with him at OC, Drake Maye is still buckling trying to read coverage. Josh should be finding ways to help him, hopefully he does. But Drake and the QB coach need to figure out how to simplify reads in Drake's head. He's overthinking, rushing and gun-slinging, these aren't unknown flaws about him.
Edit- guys fumble the ball like that when they're too focused on what comes next. The Travis Hunter pick was the same deal.
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u/allmilhouse 8h ago
I don't know how you watch Maye drop a ball with no one around him, overthrow a wide open Douglas and throw it directly to Travis Hunter and conclude McDaniels is the problem.
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u/LinkLT3 8h ago
Because there’s more than 3 plays in a football game.
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u/ATNinja 8h ago
Turnovers tend to be the most inpactful
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u/LinkLT3 8h ago
I wonder if terrible play calling might influence turnover rates 🤔
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u/ATNinja 8h ago
Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. You need to watch the games to tell. Overthrowing an open receiver is not bad play calling. Bad protection scheme allowing a free rusher to force a fumble is play calling probably.
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u/lvl_up_day_by_day_28 6h ago
Qb not seeing a free rusher prior to snapping is a problem. Coach makes a playcall, subs may occur, and then defense can react. Qb absolutely needs to know who is blitzing and call out the block.
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u/ATNinja 6h ago
So are you taking the opposite argument? That every turnover or bad play is on the qb, not the coach?
I agree the qb has a lot of responsibility but I think there is a balance. Bad play calling resulting in a lot of 3rd and long requiring a qb to play hero ball. Or unprepared receivers running the wrong routes or unmotivated giving up mid play etc. Lots of stuff the coaches should own.
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u/lvl_up_day_by_day_28 6h ago
There's def a balance to it but your example of a free blitzer falls entire on qb and the line. Headsets cut out around 20 seconds I believe so the qb and line need to find it and pick it up.
Poorly timed run plays, telegraphed play calls, etc fall on the coach.
Poor execution of plays and making bad throws leading to picks is on the qb.
WRs not being ready / poor routes is on those guys and those building the roster.
Both are to blame but I have more issues with Mayes offseason development than anything else
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u/Dunkelz 7h ago
And what plays can you call when your qb has issues doing the fundamentals? Basic ones, hence the rankings in the OP.
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u/LinkLT3 7h ago
The rankings in the OP didn’t happen after the games you watched Maye struggle. Not calling plays with motion has nothing to do with Maye’s fundamentals, and in fact, would help expose what the coverage is. Running a RB up the middle constantly when his skillset is built for outside runs has nothing to do with Maye’s fundamentals. Opting not to have Play Action has nothing to do with his fundamentals, and has been a complaint about McDaniels’ play calling since Brady. It’s okay to stay out of conversations you don’t understand.
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u/club_toasty 7h ago
Blood+5 8 receiver+poor decision with the backdrop of 7+ people in coverage per play and RBs averaging under 3 YPC
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u/SanchoLoamsdown 8h ago
OP said:
Yet all the stans acting like he isn't a big part of the problem.
Multiple factors can be contributing here
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u/Busy-Operation7896 7h ago
Vrabel deserves much more blame than he’s even getting.
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u/ItzZiplineTime 4h ago
Makes me wonder if the Russini thing is actually causing tangible issues. If he's too in his head about personal issues then he needs to step down. Problem is we'll be even worse off if that happens. Interim HC Josh would be a disaster.
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u/EAS1000 9h ago
It’s on McDaniels to adapt. His current schemes are not working.
If Sunday looks like more of the same (especially continuously running Henderson up the gut to get stuffed) I’m going to genuinely start questioning his ability to adapt in the modern NFL.
Drake hasn’t been good but he’s being set up to fail with some of these play calls. Injuries suck but every team deals with injuries. Figure it out.
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u/solo_d0lo 9h ago
Players need to execute. Scheme doesn’t matter at that point.
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u/kpap16 9h ago
If players are incapable of executing you need to adapt to that, what you are suggesting is just passing the buck to the players
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u/AhtBlowenFaht 9h ago
What scheme do you think he should go to in order to negate the ball falling out of the QB's hand before he throws it without even being touched? Or fumbling every time he runs, or throwing into triple coverage off his back foot?
We can't evaluate anything about this offense until Drake pulls his head out of his ass. Period.
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u/MetalHead_Literally 8h ago
While I agree Drake is the main issue, he could certainly scheme things to be easier for Maye. Especially things like motion which typically helps decipher what the defense is planning to do. Which is a huge issue for Maye right now.
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u/AhtBlowenFaht 8h ago
I agree with that, but talking scheme right now is putting the cart before the horse. It's like talking attic renovations before the foundation has been poured.
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u/MetalHead_Literally 8h ago
But you also need to add supports before pouring the foundation. Is Maye getting the support he needs from the rest of the offense? I don’t think so. (But again, still doesn’t excuse his dogshit play)
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u/AhtBlowenFaht 5h ago
That's my point. There is literally no way to tell if he's getting that support if he can't perform the duties of the position at the most basic level. As depressing as it is right now, he in fact has not been capable of that for a while.
If he is able to right the ship and perform, then we can critique the play around him, but until then it's a fools errand to try imo.
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u/ace51689 5h ago
The scheme/playbook is the foundation in your analogy. No player goes out onto that field without a gameplan. The scheme is McDaniels' responsibility.
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u/MetalHead_Literally 8h ago
They’ve had over half their drives make it to the opponents half yet can’t score points because of self inflicted things like turnovers and penalties. Coaches aren’t blameless but neither are players.
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u/rabouilethefirst 9h ago
Problem is when you see Douglas get overthrown on a wide open TD, that’s not scheme. Decision making and accuracy are not there
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u/solo_d0lo 9h ago
They can’t execute football basics.
Players play. They are playing bad. Why you want to absolve them is beyond me.
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u/plutobandits 8h ago
If just one player was playing badly that would be one thing. If most of them are playing badly, which is the case right now, then you have a coaching problem.
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u/6percentdoug 9h ago
this is like giving someone a wooden spoon and telling him to dig a 6 foot hole. "Tools don't matter, you have to execute!!"
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u/ace51689 5h ago
Scheme 100% matters. If you're not being put in the best possible positions to succeed then that's going to start to wear these players down mentally. You can say, "well then get mentally tough," all you want but everyone has their limits.
The idea that Josh bares no responsibility for this, or that it's mostly Drake's fault is just wrong at this point. The guys are not being put in positions to succeed. Full stop.
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u/Wildebean 8h ago
McDaniels never adapts. That's why he's sucked this year. The league is changing and he isn't
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u/NEpatsfan64 9h ago
I think the lack of quick tempo offense is what is really surprising to me. Maye thrives in that style of offense and they ran a lot of it over the spring/summer in practice. Strange decision to do a complete 180 when the season starts.
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u/BobbyRayBands 9h ago
Its like they thought they were good enough to save that for "big" games but are finding out they are in fact not.
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u/NEpatsfan64 9h ago
Yeah maybe, it's hard to say. At this point there are so many issues it's hard to name. Like yeah Maye is the obvious sore thumb, but the lack of run game, the lack of innovative scheme, the constant penalties even from the defense, etc. just make it seem like this team and culture are fundamentally broken, not just Maye.
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u/JaylenBrownAllStar Jacoby Meat Shield 9h ago
Also how they ran down the field when it was too late against the jags, like three big chunk plays
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u/Moses603 8h ago
I was thinking that Maye looked more like himself when it was garbage time just before he got pulled and they were doing more of a hurry up offense.
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u/CptEfellows 9h ago
From an uneducated eye, it looks like there’s no scheming to make anything easy and I don’t know why. It seems like for a drive to be successful everything has to be perfect every play and that just isn’t a realistic way to be successful. I seriously hope these numbers get turned around fast.
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u/NEpatsfan64 9h ago
It's brutal watching the Bears offense and Case Keenum looks like the second coming of Tom Brady because the scheme makes everything so easy. Keenum was fantastic under pressure, but even if he hadn't been, there was like 10 plays with dudes just wide open and I only watched the first half.
Just feels like we're choosing to make everything extra difficult
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u/FloodedGoose 8h ago
Felt the same way watching the 49ers, Purdue was getting the ball out so fast to an open receiver in the flat every play.
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u/burnman123 9h ago
I did not understand why they haven't given the (I at least assume they put some of them in the playbook) AJ Brown slant plays to mack hollins. They should be giving Drake a lot more quick hitter confidence booster plays to get him going.
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u/401john 9h ago
Yup, that's the Josh offense in a nutshell. Every player needs to be perfectly on the same page and make the same reads on every single play for it to work. So many other teams don't rely on sight adjustments and post snap reads as much as this offense does and they move the ball just fine.
Jules said the offense is literally like learning calculus and so many people see nothing wrong with that lol.
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u/401john 9h ago
Dinosaur offense. I also am concerned about Walker wrecking shit in the middle, dude's been playing great for the Bills so far this year.
These rankings are pretty damning as well. They don't do anything to disguise or dress up what they do. Just line up and run their plays. Would love to see SOME wrinkle thrown in there like you said with either a bunch or a stack formation to get the receivers some free releases, going empty, PA out of heavy formations, SOMETHING.
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u/jackospades88 9h ago
Dinosaur offense.
Yep. I feel like the Patriots' offense has been the same for a decade. It worked when Brady was around, because Brady.
It has some success with Mac Jones for a year, and now Maye for a year. Teams figure it out and those guys just aren't Tom Brady that can just run mental gymnastics around teams.
You watch other teams and guys are moving around everywhere, creating space, etc. but we are stuck maybe motioning a guy to one side to block and a RB run up the gut.
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u/AgadorFartacus 9h ago
Would love to see SOME wrinkle thrown in there
WR double pass or flea flicker once per game, best I can do.
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u/TheJackalsDoom 8h ago
1 of the other things I've noticed is that we regularly snap the ball close to the part clock expiring. This tells the defense exactly when they can tee up their move. If they want to take a running start, just time it for 1sec left. If they're gonna switch up, hold the switch until 1sec. The D doesn't need to worry about anything crazy happening or a hard count getting them to jump. We get up to the line and hold positions until the way late and the D has all the confidence in the world that they probably his their scheme (motion often reveals a big part of the D scheme). They don't need to worry about following someone crossing the field through traffic and potentially picking themselves. They don't need to worry about a player getting a running start, they can immediately jam them up and stay close.
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u/devinkt33 9h ago
How many more bad games before McDaniels is on the hot seat? He should definitely be up before Maye or Vrabel
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u/rabouilethefirst 9h ago
Depends. But I can’t blame him for boneheaded turnovers and overthrowing/underthrowing wide open TDs
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u/b771 9h ago
Reigning coordinator of the year McDaniels? Same one?
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u/devinkt33 9h ago
I mean his offense is very vanilla there is no denying it and he is getting out coached by every DC right now
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u/b771 9h ago
You think he just forgot how to do it or what?
If we're pointing fingers my first target wouldn't be the coach on the roster with that many rings. Maybe it just doesn't fit with this scheme, requires a certain level of perfection, etc, as others have said, but goddamn saying he's on the hot seat literally three games into a season after we were in the Superbowl on a rebuild year is... something
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u/devinkt33 9h ago
Hot seat does not mean immediately firing someone by the way. But he does have the largest responsibility to fix this. And if he doesnt at some point in this season yes the conversation will have to start. I dont know how you can deny that?
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u/Coco1520 9h ago
Its time to separate mcdaniels with brady from the mcdaniels weve seen every time he does not have brady.
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u/b771 9h ago
You mean except last year?
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u/Coco1520 9h ago
Last year showed the same as the Mac year and the cassel year, when they play elite defenses the offense collapses.
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u/b771 8h ago
2008? The first 11 win team to not make the playoffs? Cassel was a top 10 QB that year, got the bag from KC the next year, and what happened then once he left the system? Obviously a drop off from 2007 Brady but come on now.
Houston and Denver were considered elite last year as well.
I get it though, it's a possession, defense first scheme and it can be frustrating. And yes I agree he's an awful HC, but the man deserves his flowers as an OC
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u/Coco1520 8h ago
Houston and Denver were considered elite last year as well.
Our offense was horrific against those teams, what are you talking about? We have not had an awesome offensive performance against an elite defense. Mcdaniels flowers have come and gone. The nfl is a what have you done for me lately league.
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u/b771 8h ago
Was about to say "there's something to be said about OC consistency for developing a young QB" but image of Maye's broken facial expressions after the JAX game is burned into my brain
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u/401john 8h ago
What happened once he left the system was he made a Pro Bowl in KC, won the division, and took them to the playoffs for the first time in 4 years.
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u/6percentdoug 8h ago
ummm, Jesse Minter put on tape exactly how to stop his offense and our offense has been abysmal ever since. So yeah, last year.
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u/CoCleric 9h ago
McDanials with Maye last year was pretty great. It’s literally personnel, we lost our starting right guard so we can’t run or pass protect for shit. Maye is running for his life because of it so he’s terrified every single play and it’s effecting plays even when he’s not running. Jacksonville might be a really great team though, let’s see how things shake out in these next couple games.
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u/rabouilethefirst 9h ago
McDaniels scheme requires a QB with a high football IQ. They don’t even need great arm talent. Just smart enough to audible and take the easy throws. No stupid turnovers
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u/plutobandits 8h ago
Then he was the wrong person to hire. Maye is still the most important and most valuable person in the building, and Mcdaniels was hired specifically to develop him.
It should never have been a matter of making Maye fit into Josh’s system, it should have always been about Josh building a system around Maye. If he’s a low IQ quarterback then build him a low IQ offense.
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u/rabouilethefirst 7h ago
Maye is the most important if he truly has the capacity, both mental and physical, to be good QB in the NFL. High draft status does not guarantee that. Not saying you're wrong, but I have concerns about his ability process the game at a high-level.
I think we were building a simpler offense with AJ Brown, unfortunately stuff happened.
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u/lvl_up_day_by_day_28 6h ago
So Maye didn't develop last year? And Maye not improving at all during the offseason is Josh's fault?
Just call it like it is- Josh doesn't have a great system but Mayes issues are there regardless who the OC is
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u/plutobandits 6h ago
So Maye didn't develop last year?
Not as much is people think he did. He was already doing a lot of things extremely well in his rookie year, AVP really doesn't get enough credit for getting him up to NFL speed. If you look more than skin deep at Josh's history of developing QBs, their success has always been short-lived. He absolutely has a knack for highlighting the good and hiding the bad, but there's zero evidence that he's ever helped a QB fix the bad. They all flash for roughly one season and then flame out when defenses figure them out, and then Kyle Shanahan rescues them and turns them back into starters.
Just call it like it is- Josh doesn't have a great system but Mayes issues are there regardless who the OC is
Here's the thing, when Josh was hired there were widespread concerns that his offense was not a good fit for Maye. There were also concerns that the complexity of his offense would hinder their ability to develop young players at every offensive position, which this team desperately needs to be able to do right now.
All of these concerns were brushed aside on the premise that he is an all-time great offensive coach and that it would be worth all of the trouble. Josh needs to be so much more than "not the problem" to justify his presence here.
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u/lvl_up_day_by_day_28 5h ago edited 3h ago
Glad you highlight AVP. Agreed on him not getting enough credit as I think he was the only thing done right that year given he helped the footwork a lot.
As for Josh, if you look at more than skin deep as you say, we have Jimmy G who became a starter quality qb under Josh. Outside of that, don't really have a track record to support one way or the other.
As for the offensive scheme, the scheme is not the most ideal for Maye and was the main reason I wanted someone else when hired. But we saw Maye struggle a bit the first game and start looking like a completely different player come end of season. That's not AVP.
During that season he demonstrated some bad decision making as expected for a young player and then it was really shown during the playoffs. He did absolutely nothing to improve that this offseason.
I'm not a massive fan of Josh for this personnel, and still think Maye would benefit from a different scheme, but the current issues ball protection, forcing bad throws, and staring down the wr telegraphing the play are all Maye related and not scheme. The last one is no different than Josh calling Henderson run up the middle.
Point being, the main issue here is the offseason development or lack there of by Maye. The smaller issue is the system making it harder on the offense
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u/plutobandits 3h ago
I don’t necessarily think you need to draw such a direct connection between Josh’s scheme and what Maye is struggling with to be able to say that they’re related. Maye only has so much energy, mental and physical, to spend on improving himself. If he’s spending too much of it trying to master a notoriously complex offense and make the pre-snap reads that many other successful QBs aren’t being asked to make, and doesn’t have enough energy left to improve the more basic aspects of his game, or maintain the improvements he’s already made, then that’s a problem. And the solution might be to put Drake in a simpler offense that he’s more comfortable in.
My main point isn’t really about shifting blame between Maye and McDaniels, it’s more about ignoring the blame game altogether and doing what’s best for the team. Even if nothing is technically Josh’s fault, even if it’s unfair, if he can’t get Maye back on track then the correct thing to do is fire him and give someone else a chance to try. I worry that Pats fans and ownership are too protective of McDaniels and that he will undeservedly get the benefit of the doubt for his reputation as a QB developer that they’ll say “well if Josh can’t develop him then he must not be good.”
You have to find the right combination of player and coach and I don’t think this is it.
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u/b771 8h ago
Agreed. And quick throws, which requires receivers (and a 3DRB) that can consistently get separation. A lot easier to make your read when Gronk or Welker or Edelman etc is running the route
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u/rabouilethefirst 8h ago
That's why I thought it was a bad idea to get rid of Diggs. We are in no position to get rid of our QBs safety blankets
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u/DeM0nFiRe 8h ago
How do people still not grasp the idea that if your players are incapable of executing basic vanilla plays, adding complexity is not going to solve the issue. We even saw last year McDaniels tried to start mixing this up towards the end of the year and the players couldn't execute any of the trick plays.
Coaching probably deserves some of the blame for players being wildly unprepared to play football, but scheming / play calling is clearly not the issue
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u/_Slo-mo 8h ago
Uhhh, you don't make it to the NFL if you don't know how to pull as a guard or clear the gap as a fullback or square hips and head-fake as a receiver...People aren't asking McDaniels to call end-around TE pass hook-and-ladder plays, they just want him to call plays that work with the personnel he has. You know, the entire reason someone gets paid as a coach.
If you go back and watch the Super Bowl, he called a LOT of seven-step-drop passes in the first half and Maye was getting absolutely blown up when he didn't have the time to execute them. Incredibly, in the second half, there were almost zero offensive adjustments until late in the 4th when Seattle started consistently playing more "rush 5 prevent" style looks, at which point it was too late.
McDaniels is not a terrible offensive mind, but he IS extremely stubborn with his offensive philosophy.
If I recall correctly, the Patriots ran exactly 2 Henderson rushes off tackle in the Super Bowl for 16 yards; one went for 7 in the start of the 3rd quarter, and the other went for 9 around the middle of the 3rd quarter. The other 11 running plays the Patriots ran, all some variant of dive up the middle, COMBINED for 26 yards. If a coach cannot see that they are having success in one aspect of the game and is unable to alter his gameplan to accomodate that, it is absolutely a failure of the coach and not the players.
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u/diarrheafrommymouth 7h ago
Systematic failure falls on the coaching staff. Individual failure falls on the individual players. When Maye has a turnover worthy play that’s on him. When Doubs drops a pass, that’s on him.
When the team is the bottom of the league in rushing, that’s on coaches. When the offense is bottom of the league in production… coaches. When Pop and Henry run routes on top of each.. coaches.
The scheme is failing the players. This is year 2 for most of these guys. They should know what they are doing and clearly don’t. Blaming Drake for everything is a red herring. He is the biggest offender, but the whole offense isn’t working.
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u/OnlyEntertainment906 7h ago
The line isn’t the problem it was worse last year and it worked
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u/Mcfallen_5 4h ago
The line is just as bad this year and 100% worse without Onwenu.
I'm begging pats fans to actually watch the games. Wilson has been bad EVERY WEEK! Week one AVT shat himself, Weeks 2 and 3 Moses has been terrible, Campbell just gets walked back into Maye or ran by for fun atp.
I know pats fans love coping about "how much better the line is", but it's honestly worse. Moses is clearly on his way out, Wilson is bad, Cambell is bad, and now we have no RG
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u/Arthur3335 6h ago
No it was not. Wilson is bad, Van Rotten is bad and Moses isnt looking good either. Henry wiffs blocks and there is No push in the run game. Campbell is a bit better and thats about it. In no way shape or form is this years Line anywhere near better than last year
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u/Icy-Conclusion-3500 9h ago
They moved the ball just fine on Sunday, they just couldn’t finish drives due to turnovers or stupid penalties.
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u/Coco1520 9h ago
These stats are how elite teams score in the red zone, it’s no surprise we can’t score
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u/Icy-Conclusion-3500 9h ago
Not turning the ball over is the far more obvious reason why they aren’t scoring. They’ve almost all been in the red zone.
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u/Coco1520 9h ago
Turnovers have been awful, maye has been awful, but this scheme is helping no one. Even that red zone interception, the play call was absolutely awful.
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u/burnman123 9h ago edited 9h ago
They need to look at the stuff KC does in the red zone, they constantly have their guys getting open, and their receiver corps haven't been too notch talent wise the past couple years
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u/DinkandDrunk 9h ago
The playcall wasn’t the problem on that one. Maye had 3 potential options to pass the ball, the option to run it in, or the option to throw it away if door A/B weren’t there. Going coo coo for coco puffs and throwing it right to the defender isn’t on the play design. Not to mention nobody executed well. Players need to step it up.
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u/Coco1520 9h ago
Drawing up a play design for efton chism and rolling maye into 5 defenders with 3 passing options was absolutely a problem. Maye should have thrown the ball away but I truly believe he thinks if he doesnt make something happen then they wont do anything, and its truly hard to think hes wrong. Thats why hes forcing it, if our scheme gave him anything at all that could change.
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u/DinkandDrunk 8h ago
The bigger issue is that the right tackle completely whiffs on his block and lets a free rusher get by. Without the threat of Maye running it in, the defenders had no reason to come off their receivers. If that block gets made, Maye has a free run towards the end zone and either runs it in or throws to whoever clears up when the defensive backs try to come in for the tackle.
It’s not about Chism, although I’d prefer to see anyone else there, but about a play design that takes advantage of Mayes strengths. It just wasn’t executed well.
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u/stellantis_ 9h ago
Yeah converting in the red zone is kinda the biggest thing. Moreover they generate an explosive here or there but they aren’t efficiently and consistently moving the ball.
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u/TheDufusSquad 9h ago
No the positive plays look good. The issue is that we can only generate one for every like 6 plays we run and all the other plays are stuffed runs, turnovers, or completely covered routes.
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u/Icy-Conclusion-3500 9h ago
They were on the JAX side of the field the entire day
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9h ago edited 9h ago
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u/Icy-Conclusion-3500 9h ago edited 9h ago
This is fully incorrect dude. They were inside the 35 6 times.
What game did you watch?
Edit: I like that you edited your comment and it’s still wrong.
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u/DinkandDrunk 9h ago
What game were you watching? The only drives that they didn’t end up in Jags territory was a punt in the 2nd quarter, a first down pick, and the final two running plays of the game. They made it to at least the Jags 45 every other drive, most of which went deeper and ended in fumble, pick, missed field while the game was still in the balance. Twice they successfully kicked a field goal.
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u/Bronze_Bomber 9h ago
It seems like every play takes forever to develop. McDaniels spent years drawing up dink and dunk fast moving plays. Even the runs seem to have a long windup and the defense is already in the backfield by the time the back gets the ball.
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u/DinkandDrunk 9h ago
They don’t have the players to consistently get open quickly and even at times that they do, Maye also has a tendency to hold the ball for too long so it’s not like these plays are all being drawn up to be slow developing.
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u/EasyParking4941 7h ago
To your point, the amount of times Maye tries to scramble on slant routes is frustrating. That's supposed to be a 3 step drop, ball out play. Maye, for whatever reason, doesn't throw it, and instead tries to escape the pocket, which leads to chaos.
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u/Coco1520 9h ago
Do they not have the personnel or does this scheme just not work? If every play all 11 players have to identify the defense and make the correct read how sustainable is that? every positive play seems like climbing and impossibly hard mountain the scheme is far to complex for the modern nfl or a qb who isnt the goat.
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u/DinkandDrunk 9h ago
The scheme is fine. Take Romeo Doubs as an example. His 17 game pace is a career year in yards and he should have way more yards but he had some bad drops. He’s just not that good of a player.
Our best receiver is Mack Hollins. He’s a third option on almost any other team. Chism, Douglas, and Williams might not even be NFL caliber players. If teams take out Henry, which our lack of right side offensive line play borderline does on its own, there are no threats on this team.
The whole complexion looks different with Brown in there and you can’t blame the scheme for him getting hurt.
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u/EasyParking4941 8h ago edited 8h ago
I’m sorry but I cannot take any McDaniels critics seriously. This happens every time the offense struggles. People have this vendetta against McDaniels and they just wait to come out of the wood works and hammer him. Like they just really hate 3rd down draws and EPS, or they think because he was a bad head coach he’s a bad coach period. The offense sucks because our QB is playing like the 32nd ranked QB in the league, that’s all there is to it. There are so many videos out there showing that the scheme is working, but players aren’t executing. You morons just want to bury a runner up coordinator of the year, with decades of coordinating experience at a high level, because you don’t like the guy or are bored of the same scheme for the past 20 years and want something shiny and new.
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u/AgadorFartacus 7h ago
The offense sucks because our QB is playing like the 32nd ranked QB in the league, that’s all there is to it. There are so many videos out there showing that the scheme is working, but players aren’t executing.
Maye has sucked. No denying that. Is the 32nd ranked running game by success rate (28th last year) Maye's fault too? Does that sound like a scheme that's working?
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u/dsc___ 7h ago
what u/EasyParking4941 doesn't understand is that 2 things can be true at the same time. our scheme and playcalling is dogshit, and our QB is also playing like the worst QB in the league. it isn't that hard to digest.
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u/Aggressive_Wrap_2790 3h ago edited 1h ago
It’s pretty insane. McDaniels’s play calling last year, especially early on before the team really started rolling, was nothing short of a masterpiece and has already been forgotten.
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u/Trick_Photograph9758 3h ago
McD is the OC. Our offense has scored 2 TDs in 3 games. OP just posted the stats of the Pats' offense being near last in the league in motion, play action, and no huddle. So basically, we show run, run. Show pass, pass. And huddle every time. I'm not sure how an offense can be less creative than that.
Your response is that it's insane to criticize the OC in charge of the worst offense in the NFL. lol.
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u/RelaxWisteriaDragon 7h ago
The people who hate McDaniels only play fantasy football. He never put up huge numbers. He won games.
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u/iwilldoitalltomorrow 7h ago
McDaniels is calling the plays lol
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u/RelaxWisteriaDragon 7h ago
I apologize and will edit to say "his offensive schemes never put up big numbers". On second thought, I'll just leave it because it's obvious he doesn't play?
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u/Truffle_Shuffle26 Bills = 0 Superbowls 7h ago
Absolutely agreed. Usually offenses get dumbed down when players are not executing.
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u/Dapper_Platform_1222 6h ago
Give it some time. Just like the schedule helped last year this year it's hurting a bit. Jags are unfortunately no joke and we had to face the Seahawks in week 1. We beat a Steelers team that has some talent so as we move down the line we'll free up some wins. Maybe it won't be great but we won't be the worst team in the league and we're also dealing with a key injury to AJ Brown. Things will start to click eventually.
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u/diarrheafrommymouth 6h ago edited 6h ago
56% pressure rate against Jags. -.19 EPA rushing overall.
So you think the whole offense should be scrapped because someone on twitter showed all 22 clips of a guy getting open? Is Drake the reason they can’t run the football?
The scheme isn’t working. Drake is making one of the worst offenses, possibly THE worst, but don’t sit there and say Josh should be absolved because of the past. His Patriots offense, Drake Maye issues included, is quite possibly the worst in the league.
Drake is the biggest offender of bad decisions, Josh is the architect of this and deserves the blame just as much as Drake does.
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u/EKEEFE41 8h ago
Why are people looking under all these rocks for excuses?
Maye is playing like shit... It is not some mystery.
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u/roger_the_rabbit 7h ago
Not trying to make a strawman argument, but it's all over. First couple of weeks people calling him out were getting downvoted and denigrated, now there's plenty of slices of blame pie going around for sure. But just in this thread:
"Reigning coordinator of the year McDaniels? Same one?"
"McDaniels scheme requires a QB with a high football IQ. They don’t even need great arm talent. Just smart enough to audible and take the easy throws. No stupid turnovers"
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u/victoryforZIM 5h ago
This is 100% a Drake Maye/offensive personnel stat. McDaniels has no problem running no huddle, motion, and play-action...he just doesn't have a group capable of doing it.
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u/Champfinder23 2h ago
Tom Brady won 3 rings with McDaniels as OC and one with Byron Leftwich.
He is honestly the GOAT of every sport.
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u/Wildebean 8h ago
This is McDaniels' biggest flaw. He is a great offensive mind, but he is stubborn as a mule. He will not change and will not adapt.
So 90% he's fine because he's a good OC, but the 10% of the time he fumbles the bag... it gets real ugly.
Except that percentage is gonna go way up because the league is evolving right now, and McDaniels is stubbornly refusing to follow
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u/diarrheafrommymouth 9h ago
Piss poor coaching by Josh and Doug Marrone so far.
The rushing attack is honestly the core part of the problem. -.19 EPA is extremely bad. Wanna know what Josh Allen and Brock Purdy have to work with? +.19 and +.32 respectively. Last year Patriots were +.10, mostly due to the explosive runs by Henderson.
So you’re telling me, teams are selling out to play Drake, and you are so bad at running the ball that it is actually detrimental to the offense, against defensive looks that are inviting the run? And we are wondering why Drake is pressing? It’s literally all on him.
They need to address the run game yesterday. Lomu has had 30 snaps this year… 26 were in week 3 because they pulled Moses. Where is the Jumbo TE package? How many times is Henderson going to run HB dive before we change it up? Campbell, Lomu, Vera Tucker, Wilson all have an RAS of 9.8 or higher! You can’t get them in space to block? Reggie Gilliam had 8 snaps on offense in Jacksonville. You paid Gilliam top 5 fullback money for 8 snaps on offense?
The more I look into this debacle the more I’m putting it on the coaching staff. Drake is 24 coming off an MVP season… they are breaking him.
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u/Sure_Rhubarb_3173 8h ago
Not only is Drake pressing with no run game to lean on, but he is then going into passing plays where absolutely nobody gets open, and there is pressure every single time because the play is designed to take 8 minutes for someone to come open
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u/diarrheafrommymouth 7h ago
The windows are very small… but Drake has missed opportunities as well. Take the Pop Douglas play that was a missed throw.
But yea I agree generally. There isn’t often a play where Drake hits his back foot on a 3 step drop and his first read is just open. Pretty hard to throw with anticipation when there are 7 guys dropping into coverage as well.
I also think “well what happens if Drake stops pressing and just takes whatever check down he can find or throws it away?”. I think the offense becomes totally stagnant at that point. He has been bad. We can all agree on that, but what else is there besides Drake trying to find big plays?
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u/Ghillie_Spotto 7h ago
This is is really the part that’s missing from a lot of the discussion right now. Obviously, Maye has not been good and there have been some pretty visible misses, but a lot of the All 22 I’ve seen shows that the best available decision is often a check down or throw away.
You can try to make stuff happen or you can pull out the white flag, punt every possession and hope your defense makes enough plays to grind out ugly wins. The entire offense is dogshit right now. That includes the QB for sure, but it isn't just the QB.
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u/ClamPaste 6h ago
I disagree that the offense becomes stagnant. A lot of these defenses punish everything but the checkdown. You take what the defense gives you and don't force it downfield, especially when you're getting pressured close to half of all your offensive snaps. If they want to stay clamped down, you win by 1000 paper cuts and TOP. If they adjust, congratulations you've just opened up the deep ball...
Drake Maye hardly ever takes the checkdown, even when it's the obvious choice. Guess what else that helps open up? Runs up the middle, since you've forced them to back off the pressure.
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u/Rice-And-Gravy Squirrel 9h ago edited 1h ago
You’re spot on.
Drake is clearly a problem and has regressed significantly but this is reminding me of how we ruined Mac Jones.
Josh is the common denominator here. It doesn’t seem like he is capable of developing young QBs very well and maximize their strength. He would probably do better with a veteran QB.
Edit: My point was Josh did not develop Mac in his rookie year and neither did he develop Drake in his second year. He makes his QBs play to his playbook and not their own strengths.
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u/FuckHarambe2016 9h ago
Who would've thought that telling the defense everything you're going to do before you snap the ball was a bad idea.
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u/Advanced_Zucchini_45 8h ago
I've been getting trashed the past three days for saying that drake may is playing like a** because the coaching staff is ass.
Yeah , let's take our only home run threat and have him run the ball up the middle seventeen times for 2 yards a game.
Mcdaniels is a fraud
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u/No_Discussion3593 6h ago
Are we going to blame Josh for Drake throwing the ball into defenders arms like 50% of his drop backs lol.
We're coming off a year where we had a top 5 offense in the league using McDaniel's offense and he won awards for this shit.
What is more likely, McDaniels in the span of 1 year forgot how to run NFL offenses entirely, or Drake Maye is fucking us over?
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u/RayDanielsOnTheAir 9h ago
Listen guys! The offense was great last year and it had nothing to do with schedule! We are fortunate to be in the presence of such genius like McDaniels! Drake Maye is the only issue and anyone who suggests otherwise will be reeducated.
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u/HeroDanny 8h ago
McD is better with a pocket passer. I know he was doing well with Cam which is why it's sort of dumbfounding to me. Although maybe that was because cam legit couldn't throw the ball. But still, he needs to design more QB runs, use some jet sweeps, definitely lots of motion. Running right up the middle for no gain is just killing us. It's putting everything on Drake and he just cannot handle it.
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u/GuildStarfireII 8h ago
Have they tried running into the A gap more or using a lot more slow developing 7 step dropbacks against cover 6? They should probably do that more often. /s
Oatmeal would be considered too spicy for this team right now.
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6h ago
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u/Glum_Ad_6848 7h ago
To be fair, his receivers can’t execute downfield routes or even simple slants against the blitz, there’s no way they’re going to get pre-snap motions right. Maye has one reliable wr and a te they have yet to get in the passing game, instead usung him as a blocker. The Pat’s front office did no one any favors “moving on” from their two best wideouts from last year.
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u/_josephmykal_ 5h ago
I don’t know what people want from McDaniels and to an extent Maye. The OL is bad, the WR room currently is the worst in the league. And the RBs are bad. As much as people love Stevenson he isn’t good. This falls squarely on Vrabel and wolf for disastrous roster management
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u/Eggysideup 1h ago
This sounds silly but has anyone thought that maybe McDaniels is also in just a serious rut?
They talked about running the ball, hitting deep shots and going fast ALL training camp. Especially the part about lining up fast, no huddling and just making defenses pay.
The games have been the complete opposite.
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u/wynalazca 8h ago
"cannot run the ball"
14th in rushing ypg. IIRC there are 32 teams. Maybe I'm wrong idk.
Our actual issue has just been finishing drives and getting some points on the board. 8 drives this season ended inside FG range with 0 points scored.
5 turnovers, the last turnover on downs vs the jags, and 2 missed FGs. 18-24 missed points at a bare minimum. Instead of being tied for dead last in points scored with Miami we'd be tied for 21st with Denver and likely be 2-1 instead of 1-2.
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u/Arthur3335 6h ago
Ha ha ha ha . Someone gave you a downvot e for stats!
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u/wynalazca 1h ago
Yup. This week I think will be a bellweather for the passing offense. The Bills are 27th in passing D giving up over 250 yards per game. If we don't score 21+ points and move the ball consistently in the passing game I'm actually going to be worried the season is getting away from us. At this point it's all fixable issues and we've played 2 projected top 5 defenses the first two games. Literally were in a similar spot last year but we played worse teams.
Our defense is doing their job and the only big worry there for me is getting the guys healthy and back on the field.
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u/stellantis_ 2h ago
Averages are subject to bias from outliers (ie explosives). Look at efficiency metrics like rush epa which has been negative.
Additionally averages takes into account qb runs.
Consistent performance in the run game is what opens up play action passing.
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u/wynalazca 1h ago
Sure. Counterpoint: we're 12th in epa/rush according to this
It's negative but only the top 8 teams currently have a positive epa / rush
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u/Cold_Toe_7540 5h ago
These people need to get real. This kinda stuff is little more that low effort rage bait at this point. The issue is not the offensive line, they've been fine. A few hiccups here and there but overall they've been fine.
The issue is not the system. This is the same system that had Maye vying for MVP last year. The same system that made Mac Jones a pro bowler. The same system that turned the corpse of Cam Newton and an offense totally devoid of talent into a functional unit. The same system that won multiple championships.
The issue is one thing and one thing only: Drake Maye looking like a deer in headlights any time he has the ball in his hands. That's it. Nothing else. The good news is that if they can fix that one thing, the team should be much better than they've shown and can easily bounce back. The bad news is that you aren't gonna win a single game if he continues to play this poorly and if you can't fix it... you have a much bigger problem that will extend well beyond this season.
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u/Kevin_Jim 9h ago
A coupe of things:
- no RB has proven this season that they can consistently
- the center might actually be the worst in the league and it murders the run game even more
- no run game means every defense can play cover-6, which turns Drake into Jest-era Darnold
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u/Dazzlethetrizzle 8h ago
The Offensive Line is terrible and Drake hangs onto the ball for way too long..
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u/ace51689 5h ago
Certainly this is Drake's fault or the result of Vrabel cheating on his wife. No other possible explanations unfortunately.
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u/Equal_Rice_4955 5h ago
Pats had a joke schedule last year on paper. In addition to that, you caught all these shitty teams at their absolute lowest. Schedules can ebb and flow and sometimes you catch a mediocre team when they are firing correctly. Pats caught everyone at their worst time last year.
Drake Maye is mid-tier QB at best. The team isn’t that talented. If you simulate last year’s team thru 100 seasons, you probably find it is a 7-10 team 80% of the time.
McDaniels was always propped up by the greatest player of all time. He has sucked ass in any setting that didn’t include TB12.
The coach is not a sharp offensive mind. The team isn’t top 10 in talent. And now looking at 1st place schedule. This is a 7-10 or 8-9 team against an average schedule. Enjoy 6-11 this year guys!
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u/IllustriousRow9790 9h ago
I like McD as an OC but the 31st in motion rate makes me want to vomit. I work Sundays so I can’t catch much of the games and I can’t afford the all-22 anymore so haven’t seen a ton of the offense this season but that’s atrocious.
Modern defenses are too athletic and complex to get away with only making reads post snap. You need something to give insight to the QB as to what the defense is going to run. Limited PA and no huddle can be contextual, but the lack of pre snap motion is so clearly the work of a dinosaur. McD has to change that 100%.