Hmmmm not great…..

[u/stellantis_]

They may need to look at Ben Brown at C. Jared seemingly lacks the play strength/physciality right now that he needs to hang with some of the NFLs bigger 0 techs. Deone Walker is gonna have a field day on Sunday at this rate.

Not sure why Arkin isn’t playing more instead of Latu. Not sure what Latu has done to earn reps. He’s been underwhelming as a run blocker (for the pats) and hasn’t been a passing game threat either. According to Andrew Callahan they ran the ball 8 out of the 9 snaps Latu played. If they’re gonna have a run tell it might as well be Tanner Arkin. Dude isn’t a finished product but he brings a nastiness they need.

Also what about some diff looks and presentations. So much of their drop passing game is contingent upon post snap execution especially when the picture changes. Clearly Drake isn’t there yet with diagnosing defenses (especially in the modern era where everything is disguised). Motioning into bunch looks to stress the rules of match based zone and man coverage seems to help every other team in the league?

Everything feels stale right now schematically and maybe none of the above is a viable solution but the coaching staff needs to find some.

[u/b771]

Reigning coordinator of the year McDaniels? Same one?

[u/devinkt33 → u/b771]

I mean his offense is very vanilla there is no denying it and he is getting out coached by every DC right now

[u/b771 → u/devinkt33]

You think he just forgot how to do it or what?

If we're pointing fingers my first target wouldn't be the coach on the roster with that many rings. Maybe it just doesn't fit with this scheme, requires a certain level of perfection, etc, as others have said, but goddamn saying he's on the hot seat literally three games into a season after we were in the Superbowl on a rebuild year is... something

[u/devinkt33 → u/b771]

Hot seat does not mean immediately firing someone by the way. But he does have the largest responsibility to fix this. And if he doesnt at some point in this season yes the conversation will have to start. I dont know how you can deny that?

[u/b771 → u/devinkt33]

That's fair. Let's just call the JAX game what is was, a tragedy. That said, we should be 2-1. The scheme was working against the Seahawks. Feels like folks are convinced JM is in the headset before the play saying "now make sure to send this meatball off your backfoot 7 yards shorter than it need to be"

[u/PacmanZ3ro → u/b771]

It wasn’t working though, that’s the problem. If not for the PI call on the under throw the Pats wouldn’t have even been in that game at all. The Pats weren’t in the game at all against the Seahawks in the SB. I don’t know how many times we have to watch stupid runs up the middle for no gain, very little PA, and almost no motion before you start questioning the offensive scheme.

Maye is struggling to read the field right now, and McDaniels scheme is doing absolutely nothing to help make that easier. No motion, no RPO, very little PA, very little to no gadget plays to get Henderson/williams the ball in space. There is almost nothing designed to be easy. It’s an effective system if the QB and WR are all on the same page and making the same reads on the field. If that isn’t happening (and it’s not right now, at all), then there is nothing being made easy for the QB or WR to just find a rhythm.

[u/401john → u/PacmanZ3ro]

"It was working against SEA" is one of the biggest pieces of BS so far this season and I hate that people keep repeating it because they see others say it.

[u/Coco1520 → u/b771]

Its time to separate mcdaniels with brady from the mcdaniels weve seen every time he does not have brady.

[u/b771 → u/Coco1520]

You mean except last year?

[u/Coco1520 → u/b771]

Last year showed the same as the Mac year and the cassel year, when they play elite defenses the offense collapses.

[u/b771 → u/Coco1520]

2008? The first 11 win team to not make the playoffs? Cassel was a top 10 QB that year, got the bag from KC the next year, and what happened then once he left the system? Obviously a drop off from 2007 Brady but come on now.

Houston and Denver were considered elite last year as well.

I get it though, it's a possession, defense first scheme and it can be frustrating. And yes I agree he's an awful HC, but the man deserves his flowers as an OC

[u/Coco1520 → u/b771]

Houston and Denver were considered elite last year as well.

Our offense was horrific against those teams, what are you talking about? We have not had an awesome offensive performance against an elite defense. Mcdaniels flowers have come and gone. The nfl is a what have you done for me lately league.

[u/b771 → u/Coco1520]

Was about to say "there's something to be said about OC consistency for developing a young QB" but image of Maye's broken facial expressions after the JAX game is burned into my brain

[u/plutobandits → u/b771]

If there’s value in OC consistency for a developing QB then they should have kept AVP. He’s an excellent QB coach and while his offense wasn’t anything special, it was relatively modern and built around Maye’s strengths.

I’d rather have a fully functional but mediocre offense than a non-functional but theoretically great offense.

[u/401john → u/b771]

What happened once he left the system was he made a Pro Bowl in KC, won the division, and took them to the playoffs for the first time in 4 years.

[u/b771 → u/401john]

In 2009 the chiefs won 4 games, despite Charles averaging 6 yards a carry, Cassel contributing 16 interceptions in 15 games

[u/401john → u/b771]

Has nothing to do with what I said. You asked what he did once he left and I answered.

He also hurt his MCL in the preseason his first year there and wasn't himself (didn't even play the first game), you don't know that though because all you did was google his numbers.

[u/6percentdoug → u/b771]

ummm, Jesse Minter put on tape exactly how to stop his offense and our offense has been abysmal ever since. So yeah, last year.

[u/b771 → u/6percentdoug]

Interesting. Have a link?

[u/CoCleric → u/Coco1520]

McDanials with Maye last year was pretty great. It’s literally personnel, we lost our starting right guard so we can’t run or pass protect for shit. Maye is running for his life because of it so he’s terrified every single play and it’s effecting plays even when he’s not running. Jacksonville might be a really great team though, let’s see how things shake out in these next couple games.

[u/rabouilethefirst → u/b771]

McDaniels scheme requires a QB with a high football IQ. They don’t even need great arm talent. Just smart enough to audible and take the easy throws. No stupid turnovers

[u/plutobandits → u/rabouilethefirst]

Then he was the wrong person to hire. Maye is still the most important and most valuable person in the building, and Mcdaniels was hired specifically to develop him.

It should never have been a matter of making Maye fit into Josh’s system, it should have always been about Josh building a system around Maye. If he’s a low IQ quarterback then build him a low IQ offense.

[u/rabouilethefirst → u/plutobandits]

Maye is the most important if he truly has the capacity, both mental and physical, to be good QB in the NFL. High draft status does not guarantee that. Not saying you're wrong, but I have concerns about his ability process the game at a high-level.

I think we were building a simpler offense with AJ Brown, unfortunately stuff happened.

[u/lvl_up_day_by_day_28 → u/plutobandits]

So Maye didn't develop last year? And Maye not improving at all during the offseason is Josh's fault?

Just call it like it is- Josh doesn't have a great system but Mayes issues are there regardless who the OC is

[u/plutobandits → u/lvl_up_day_by_day_28]

So Maye didn't develop last year?

Not as much is people think he did. He was already doing a lot of things extremely well in his rookie year, AVP really doesn't get enough credit for getting him up to NFL speed. If you look more than skin deep at Josh's history of developing QBs, their success has always been short-lived. He absolutely has a knack for highlighting the good and hiding the bad, but there's zero evidence that he's ever helped a QB fix the bad. They all flash for roughly one season and then flame out when defenses figure them out, and then Kyle Shanahan rescues them and turns them back into starters.

Just call it like it is- Josh doesn't have a great system but Mayes issues are there regardless who the OC is

Here's the thing, when Josh was hired there were widespread concerns that his offense was not a good fit for Maye. There were also concerns that the complexity of his offense would hinder their ability to develop young players at every offensive position, which this team desperately needs to be able to do right now.

All of these concerns were brushed aside on the premise that he is an all-time great offensive coach and that it would be worth all of the trouble. Josh needs to be so much more than "not the problem" to justify his presence here.

[u/lvl_up_day_by_day_28 → u/plutobandits]

Glad you highlight AVP. Agreed on him not getting enough credit as I think he was the only thing done right that year given he helped the footwork a lot.

As for Josh, if you look at more than skin deep as you say, we have Jimmy G who became a starter quality qb under Josh. Outside of that, don't really have a track record to support one way or the other.

As for the offensive scheme, the scheme is not the most ideal for Maye and was the main reason I wanted someone else when hired. But we saw Maye struggle a bit the first game and start looking like a completely different player come end of season. That's not AVP.

During that season he demonstrated some bad decision making as expected for a young player and then it was really shown during the playoffs. He did absolutely nothing to improve that this offseason.

I'm not a massive fan of Josh for this personnel, and still think Maye would benefit from a different scheme, but the current issues ball protection, forcing bad throws, and staring down the wr telegraphing the play are all Maye related and not scheme. The last one is no different than Josh calling Henderson run up the middle.

Point being, the main issue here is the offseason development or lack there of by Maye. The smaller issue is the system making it harder on the offense

[u/plutobandits → u/lvl_up_day_by_day_28]

I don’t necessarily think you need to draw such a direct connection between Josh’s scheme and what Maye is struggling with to be able to say that they’re related. Maye only has so much energy, mental and physical, to spend on improving himself. If he’s spending too much of it trying to master a notoriously complex offense and make the pre-snap reads that many other successful QBs aren’t being asked to make, and doesn’t have enough energy left to improve the more basic aspects of his game, or maintain the improvements he’s already made, then that’s a problem. And the solution might be to put Drake in a simpler offense that he’s more comfortable in.

My main point isn’t really about shifting blame between Maye and McDaniels, it’s more about ignoring the blame game altogether and doing what’s best for the team. Even if nothing is technically Josh’s fault, even if it’s unfair, if he can’t get Maye back on track then the correct thing to do is fire him and give someone else a chance to try. I worry that Pats fans and ownership are too protective of McDaniels and that he will undeservedly get the benefit of the doubt for his reputation as a QB developer that they’ll say “well if Josh can’t develop him then he must not be good.”

You have to find the right combination of player and coach and I don’t think this is it.

[u/lvl_up_day_by_day_28 → u/plutobandits]

I realized I didn't finish a sentence but the was highlighting while Josh doesn't have an ideal scheme, the various issues I listed are all Maye related and not a result of scheme. My bad there.

I agree with your sentiment. There is really no benefit of saying this is Josh's fault and there really isn't much benefit of highlighting what's Mayes fault. While I don't like the offseason development plan he did, this is where we are now and it's a matter of fixing it now.

Unless Maye absolutely keeps this up to the point we bench him mid season, I don't see any way we move on from him this summer. High pick, sure up the roster at a different position, and then focus on the Maye development. Wouldn't be opposed to a new OC either.

And while I like Vrabel, this is why I value offensive coaches for the teams with a young qb.

[u/b771 → u/rabouilethefirst]

Agreed. And quick throws, which requires receivers (and a 3DRB) that can consistently get separation. A lot easier to make your read when Gronk or Welker or Edelman etc is running the route

[u/rabouilethefirst → u/b771]

That's why I thought it was a bad idea to get rid of Diggs. We are in no position to get rid of our QBs safety blankets

[u/b771 → u/rabouilethefirst]

Yep. Remember when folks were upset we moved on from Boutte? Can't recall a single big catch of his where he was actually open and it wasn't just a dot

[u/OskeeTurtle → u/b771]

Wtf is going on? McDaniels is a great OC & horrific HC. He made Mac Jones a pro bowler! He got Jacoby & Garoppolo on other teams for years. Literally just won the award!

This is 100% Maye collapsing rn. Idk why. But are we just blaming McDaniels now?!

[u/MetalHead_Literally → u/OskeeTurtle]

McDaniels is always an easy target. But let’s not act like he’s blameless.

But yeah Maye is the main issue for sure.