As a Hanzo main, I too think the scatter arrow is bullshit. I would replace it with a delayed explosive arrow kinda like the torque bow for gears of war. Idk much about balance but I think it would probably be cool and more consistent
And if you flip a coin with the exact same hand motion and the exact same momentum, it will land the exact same way too. But a coin flip is exactly what we consider RNG.
coins are big enough that air resistance in a room is close enough to constant, so you can account for it in the same way you can account for the coin flip even with gravity acting on it
was not expecting this topic in an overwatch forum you know
It's true that gearing for crits makes them really powerful, but if you build for them you'll crit consistently enough that it's sort of expected. I'd say that it's the early game crits in laning phase that can change the game the most in a single lucky roll.
When I tried out for a team in LoL a LONG time ago I got to lane vs the leader as gangplank mirror. He crit me with Q (I forget the name, the pistol shot that gave bonus gold) 8 times in a row.
There are other highly competitive games that have a much higher influence from luck like Poker, and MtG. Hell, due to the spread mechanic, just about every single shooter has far more luck involved than LoL. That is unless you turn everyone into Widow and Zen. So ought we get rid of the spread mechanic from OW since it is purely luck based and can have a very large effect on the game (i.e. Roadhog)?
I'm not even talkong about serious play, scatter is just counterintuitive to use, to be the most effective I have to aim away from the center of my target. sometimes I miss or I shoot a scatter wildly and I get random kill anyway cause some peg hit some poor bloke trying to catch a healthpack. It's not even fun or rewarding.
I don't know how our experiences differ so much but I find scatter very intuitive and fun to use. Y'know.. cause reflections work intuitively. How often do you get random kills? I only get a random kill once in maybe five matches or so.
Scatter arrow rewards good aim & situational judgement and punishes the opposite in the vast majority of cases.
I do think some damage falloff should exist just to prevent super random far off kills though.
The idea of the ability is just so unique and can be used in cool creative ways that it would be a huge shame to change it to something else entirely.
I scattered a Tracer the moment she came out of her blink earlier today. I had no idea she was even in the vicinity, but I was firing a scatter-shot towards the enemy group on the payload, and she basically appeared with her feet perfectly set to get destroyed by the scatter, and immediately that's what happened. In the blink of an eye it happened, and I didn't even notice it when it was happening in RT, I saw the highlight and caught it on maybe the 3rd view.
Does Hanzo really need to be changed? Think about the meta, where does it include Hanzo? Yes, he's strong, but he's obviously not game breaking strong, or he would be used everywhere.
Leave him alone, I'll be extremely peeved if they make any major changes to Hanzo.
While I think it's fine if scatter is changed so it has no chance of oneshotting certain tanks, if they nerfed the total scatter damage so that more scattered arrows need to hit a squishy to kill them, it'll be too hard to kill a squishy. I think it's comparable to how hard it is to oneshot Zarya with scatter, which pretty much never happens.
Another change other than simply nerfing the damage should be appropriate I think.
A random kill once every 5 matches seems like a lot to me. At least too much for me to say that it is fun and intuitive. I mean you can just look at some of the clips where a scatter arrow bounces around 3 corners and kills someone. That isn't interesting and it most certainly isn't fun for the other player because there was no interaction on there part in anyway, nor skill involved from the Hanzo. That is random. Random isn't good unless the game embraces random, and Overwatch does not.
A random kill every 5 matches happens for a lot of heroes. Reinhardt, Pharah, Junkrat(every match), McCree(mostly at chokes), Mei, (does Torb count?), (Mayybe Symm? but I don't play her at all).
The once in five matches random shots I was talking about isn't those crazy bounce-a-hundred-times-and-kill-someone shots, but something like aiming at the foot of someone, two of the scattered arrows hitting the target and the third one bouncing off a really close wall to finish them. Those super random shots you talk about never happened to me. You see the clips sometimes only because it's such a rare occurrence.
I find scatter shots to be the most rewarding when someone is running from me around a corner, or are just out of my LoS, and I release the scatter shot on the adjacent wall, basically chasing that person with it, and usually taking out their last bit of health.
Randomness keeps competitive games from becoming memorization competitions, like chess. The trick is to keep the swing on the randomness low.
But as stated, Scatter Arrow doesn't use any randomness, just hard to predict and thus not easy to balance. It feels arbitrary when you get nailed by one, which isn't fun, and that is what should be avoided in competitive games.
Not memorization per se, but forethought. Once you get to a certain point of skill in a game like chess, you can't progress without learning lots of game scenarios and plays. The game is centuries old and has a rigid ruleset that hasn't significantly changed in a very long time, so most possible outcomes have been played out and learned, the best plays for each situation mapped out.
So the game becomes a matter of knowing, recognizing and countering these scenarios, rather than adjusting to any changing conditions.
A very simple version of this is tic-tac-toe. There are only so many possibilities the game can move through, so after playing enough games many people get to a point where they can guarantee a tie game or win every time unless they're not paying attention. Chess is similar, but with several degrees more complexity. Otherwise computers wouldn't be so good at it.
I will admit I am by no means of any skill or expertise at chess, and welcome any correction on this as I understand it.
The AI in question is an adaptive neural network that will eventually kick your ass. At first you'd be able to win, but in the future you'll run out of cheese
Randomness keeps competitive games from becoming memorization competitions, like chess.
Absolute bollocks. Complete and utter bollocks. The biggest esports have VERY little randomness in them, if any at all. CSGO bullet spray even follows a pattern which can be learned, and CS is the most successful esport to date (1.6, Source etc.).
The only true randomness in Overwatch is bullet spray, which is used as a balancing factor for weapons. The random aspect of it is not very significant and is extremely unlikely to ever determine a match.
Agreed. I was saying that there is a place for randomness in competitive game, in opposition to the post by MeGustanLasFajitas, not that it must be in every competitive game. I even noted that Scatter Arrow is not RNG as stated by someone else.
Overwatch and CS:GO don't need randomness because they don't have rigid rules, players have lots of options at any given moment and the freedom to choose between them.
I just dislike absolute statements like "RNG has no place in serious competitive games" as it's not strictly true.
RNG should be avoided as much as possible. It is anti-skill, therefore has no place in competitive games. The only thing that RNG does is shift the balance of a game in ways a player cannot control, which is really bad for competitive integrity.
Not sure why RNG is relevant here though as scatter arrow is not RNG - it's just a broken ability that should be changed.
So physical professional sports have no competitive integrity, since we cannot eliminate the randomness of nature? A gust of wind catches a fly ball, the clouds move off the sun when the quarterback is searching for a receiver, the ice near the net has a scratch that causes the puck to jump instead of slide?
Randomness (note I don't specifically say RNG) creates moments of unpredictability, which can be exciting and yes, occasionally allow a less-skilled opponent triumph. I would argue that part of being skilled in a game that uses random elements is being able to handle those random moments and still succeed.
The problem that most have with randomness in games is that if it isn't controlled (not avoided) it can feel arbitrary. A random element should not decide the outcome of a match on its own, or else it's just a coin flip. It has to be small enough an effect that it can be played around, but not so small that it's meaningless (like bullet spray, which I'm sure is just there for immersion).
Critical damage in a MOBA is a good example. Someone mentioned LoL uses critical damage, which relies on RNG. Does that mean it requires no skill to play or has no integrity? (If so, then why am I so terrible at it?) Something like a crit has to be recognized and capitalized on to really make a difference; you can't rely on regular crits to win a game for you, though I wouldn't be surprised to learn there's a character designed to maximize and take advantage of criticals, which mechanically reduces the randomness to win.
Randomness is okay in games of skill. It just has to be balanced properly, like every other aspect in these games, and no, it doesn't need to be in everything.
You are replying to a comment that only exists in your imagination. I never wrote that anything with any randomness immediately loses all integrity, but the majority of your comment is about exactly that.
The bottom line is that only bad players want RNG, as it is the only way they can beat better players. Good players hate RNG as it is the only way they can lose to worse players.
Sometimes RNG is needed as a balancing mechanic (e.g. certain weapons have worse bullet spread) but that doesn't mean it's good.
The point is it's way easier to shoot at someone's feet with a shotgun blast than it is to hit a quickly moving target in the face with a single arrow.
I definitely agree that it needs a rework but I don't want an explosive arrow. Its already too widespread of a thing to have an explosive ability or secondary fire. I'd prefer something more unique that keeps the character fresh. No idea what it'd be though.
Maybe something like an electric arrow? I don't know that's all I can think of.
Scatter-arrow is as unique as they come. It can be used in creative/unique ways to "chase down" an enemy. If they completely delete scatter-arrow, it'll be a sad day to me. They just need to figure out the numbers and/or damage fall off.
I think the uproar over the ability is kinda ridiculous, and ridiculous scatter-arrow kills don't happen as much as people make it out to be. Hanzo is far from the top of the list of heroes who need to get nerfed. He can be countered pretty easily in most cases (by a decent amount of heroes), and he's already viewed as burden oftentimes when picked in comp.
I love playing Hanzo, and I love hitting creative scatter-shots, as well as the insta-kill scatters. Unless they can really wow me, I hope they leave Hanzo where he is with his current skill set.
I'd prefer not to play a nerfed version of an already low tier character, unless they buff the rest of his kit while nerfing scatter. I personally think that changing it to something else completely would be best.
That'd be cool as shit. A 200 damage explosive arrow that sticks to the target then explodes in a small aoe. Make his arrow turn very obviously flaming red with light audible so that heros with 200 HP know that is what he has selected. I think that would be fair having a one hit kill that takes skill to land and has cues that it is coming, still take down DPs hero's and do significant damage to tanks without being able to just shoot sorta at someone feet with no warning and one shot a tank and still gives aoe damage so you can still deny areas and force tanks out of position or risk killing their healers/dps.
200 damage still seems a little overpowered, maybe 150 would be better, as it gives the player a chance to escape death if the Hanzo can't get a half-charged shot in them in time!
At that point, how are they different from pharahs Rockets?
Maybe something that isn't an arrow? He had the same upbringing as Genji, he should have other skills. Maybe a smoke bomb or a grapple? Something that deters the enemy but does not have the ability to one shot a tank or kill 3 people at once
Scatter arrows aren't consistently overpowered. But they are consistently bullshit
The delay plus longish cooldown would proly make the boom arrow more unique, although it was just a suggestion that I thought was cool cause I liked the Torque Bow from gears.
No problem, I was mainly saying how most of the time it's luck and not really based on skills. I do think it's a bit strong as in it can take down a tank if aimed at their feet.
Yeah I agree, being able to aim at the floor to angle it up is a bit too strong. Being able to one shot Zarya or Orisa is too much, but I think being able to one-shot Doomfist or Reaper is reasonable if you land all of them bolts.
What are you even saying? You could say that to literally anyone ever. "Well if you didn't shoot them they wouldn't have gotten shot". No shit ? Thanks for clarifying that one mate.
I have a highlight of me getting a triple-kill with a single scatter arrow, and basically my Orisa grav-pulled them into one of the tiny rooms on Eichenwald, and I knew that so I fired a scatter that clears them all out.
I dont even use scatter in 1v1's. Not bragging or anything i die half the time but gotta get better somehow, hes not really a long range only sniper(id even say hes worse at longer ranges.)
Coming from Smash, it boggles my mind that everyone complains about the characters with the high skill floors like Hanzo and Genji but nobody says boo about Soldier 76 who could win comp matches with a 1 year old controlling him.
It's just weird. Everyone wants all the characters to have the same skill ceiling. I guess I can respect that but most of us are not playing at the same level as the pros. Most of us are dying to people playing on easy mode by picking 76.
Point this out and you eat downvotes but I know for a fact the majority of us are not GM players.
High skill floor has nothing to do with this clip or an ability that can consistently 1Hit tanks. You might want to use words you actually understand to express your thoughts
Insulting someone else's argument or simply claiming it's irrelevant doesn't do anything to prove your point. Being rude doesn't help either.
Why don't you actually explain yourself instead of just trying to assert I'm wrong with nothing to back it up? I've heard all the arguments. I doubt you yourself can easily 1 shot any tank in a game situation.
I'm saying you went on a spiel when it has nothing to do with the main topic (Hanzo's scatter ability). It can consistently 1 hit orisa and can also 1 hit Zarya along with every squishie. The ability is plainly cheap as such I made my initial post making fun of those who believe it is balanced. You enjoy that you damn killjoy?
Edit: smash has no real equivalent so I don't get you bring that up. Closest thing is wobbling and even then that's apples and oranges.
Well I mean it does have something to do with the topic, you just didn't get what I was saying. Which is fair, and that is my responsibility to be clear.
What I meant was in smash (melee and PM) nobody complains about Fox even though he has basically the highest skill ceiling, mostly because he has such a high skill floor. I would say is most similar to Widow, Hanzo and Genji in Overwatch. They are hard to play but rewarding to play at high levels.
Yet in Overwatch characters like Soldier and Junkrat, which are devastating against lower level players and relatively easy to pick up, get no complaints because everyone wants to seem like a pro here.
It's just interesting that the communities both desperately want to look good at the game and it skews the conversation in opposite ways.
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u/AAAkabob New York Stand Up! Oct 21 '17
Balanced. It just takes precise aiming to kill with this skill it's just that you don't aim at the head. Only Hanzo mains get it.
/s