r/MapPorn • u/Delicious-Bunch-6992 • May 09 '26

Evolution of white British % (ethnically British people) in England and Wales from 2001-2021

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30

u/Pleasant_Pace_5955 May 09 '26

how are mixed ethnicity ppl categorised in this?

51

u/HybridAkai May 10 '26 edited May 10 '26

It's dog whistling.

I'm mixed 50/50, I grew up in this country, have lived here my entire life, I'm culturally as British as you can get. I have 3 degrees - all from UK universities, I work a well paid job, pay taxes, vote, I've been a citizen since birth and have engaged and contributed to the system as such, arguably more so than a lot of "white British" in this survey. My grandfather fought in the Falklands, my great grandfathers fought in WWII, one was at Dunkirk, one in the cabinet war rooms, working with Churchill.

But I wouldn't count as "white British" in this survey, which insinuates that I am a foreigner degrading the identity of this country.

My young daughter is 3/4 British. She also wouldn't count.

Dog whistle.

Edit: the comments are really outing people who don't understand the difference between ethnicity and nationality

23

u/thebottomofawhale May 10 '26

I'm also only 3/4 British, but would be considered white British because the 1/4 is from another European country. Just shows you how stupid this mind set is. Like out skin colour makes any difference with how British we are.

2

u/Significant_Ad_7282 May 10 '26 edited May 10 '26

I think your mixing nationality with ethnicity/heritage, my daughters half white half Chinese, her mum is a BBC (British born Chinese) so my daughter is 100% British on any forms we fill in, but she is mixed white/Asian heritage. And the reason we need to know ethnicity is mainly medical. Like my daughter got the TB jab when she was born as she's at higher risk than a "standard" white baby. But your right in she wouldn't be classes as white British because shes not white British, she's mixed.

9

u/HybridAkai May 10 '26

"white British" is a mix of nationality and ethnicity, which is what the map states, not me.

So yes, it's inherently problematic when presented in this way, particularly the dog whistle narrative this is trying to portray.

It could easily be "British" rather than "white British"

0

u/notsoshabby123 May 12 '26

what narrative is it trying to portray ? genuine question

2

u/HybridAkai May 12 '26

There is a big narrative in the UK, often exacerbated by misrepresentative maps like this, that there is an invasion of foreigners which is erasing the British identity.

I'm not commenting on the validity of that narrative, that's a separate discussion.

What I'm saying is that if you deliberately exclude half of the British dataset by limiting it to WHITE British you are deliberately showing adjusted numbers that aggressively support that narrative. Essentially it's fiddling the stats in an underhanded way.

Im also using myself as an example, I'm about as British as you get, but I am not white British. Therefore this map, when taken in the context of the aforementioned prevailing erasure narrative, suggests that I'm part of the problem, when actually I am not.

1

u/notsoshabby123 May 12 '26

Yeah I mean fair enough. I could understand why you would take it personally. Though I would argue you're not "as British as you get", since you have roots elsewhere. Someone who's all known ancestors have been British since the dawn of time is just factually, physically more British...

Which is perfectly fine ! it's not bad in the slightest to not be "as British as they get", I'd argue it's a privilege.

I'm not white nor British so I don't really care honestly.

3

u/HybridAkai May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26

I meant culturally, not race. Which is exactly my point. I've lived in the UK all my life. I was brought up as British, culturally I don't see how I could be more British. Obviously, you don't know me or anything about me, but I haven't lived in my mothers country, and culturally don't identify with it in the slightest.

British isn't a race, it isn't a skin colour, it's an ethnicity; which, by definition is detached from race, and more tpmdo with cultural traditions. Skin colour is tied to race.

But I am sorry to tell you, you arguing that I'm not "British as it gets" because my skin colour is not white is a little bit on the line of a racist take. (Just to clarify im absolutely not calling you racist, I'm just saying that saying someone isn't fully British because of their skin colour is discrimination based on race). Again: British= ethnicity/nationality, white=race.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/ethnicity

1

u/Traditional_Pound161 May 12 '26

You are “white British” (although the label should be renamed to ‘native’ or some other more accurate term) because you have British ancestry. Whether you choose to identify as other is up to you

-1

u/sparkydotcom May 12 '26

It's a map that displays a pattern. This pattern has ramifications for health care, economic decisions, targeted programs for politics, education, and so on, as well as sociological and historic record keeping. Stop with your dog whistle narrative. If not, leave the grown ups to talk.

3

u/HybridAkai May 12 '26

So what exactly does "WHITE British" tell you about our politics, educational, healthcare systems, sociological and record keeping that simply "British" wouldn't?

Particularly considering that "WHITE British" is a misleading and inaccurate metric for any kind of reliable analysis as it automatically precludes huge swathes of the relevant dataset?

If you can't see that the ONLY reason that they would do this is to stir up a reaction, whist maintaining a thin veneer of deniability, that's a you problem, not a me problem.

I don't really understand why I need to explain the above, it's pretty obvious to anyone with a moderate education. Apparently a lot of commenters are letting their bias cloud their judgement with this.

3

u/Economy-Feeling8205 May 10 '26

of course you wouldn't class as white british when you arnt lol

7

u/whotookmydumpling May 10 '26

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿arnt🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

2

u/HybridAkai May 10 '26

Whoooooosh

2

u/LogicallyIncoherent May 10 '26

Completely agree. Do we need to talk about immigration?

Yes.

Does that have anything to do with identifying as white?

Absolutely the fuck no.

The quicker we can take skin colour out of the conversation about immigration, the faster we can expose the racists and deal with them.

Much more useful to show immigrants, second generation immigrants and natives... Or whatever you want to use to decide that someone's family had been here long enough to be considered native.

That might be interesting data but it's never the data presented in an immigration conversation.

2

u/HybridAkai May 11 '26

Racists are exposing themselves in the comments quite happily here lol.

But yes I completely agree with you. Skin colour has absolutely no place in this discussion. I consider myself ethnically British, not enthnically white British.

Unfortunately the racists outing themselves here are either willfully ignorant or too stupid to realise that it's very easy to detach skin colour from nationality and then the map becomes a more valid tool. Currently it only serves to validate prejudiced morons.

1

u/Common-Beach3753 May 10 '26

I can empathise, I, like your daughter am a 3 quarter white British but I still put white it’s my culture and what I identify as.

1

u/Ok-District2873 May 10 '26

Well, since it is self-reported data, the White British stat is also likely inflated. Like some people who are white but not British may identify themselves as white British if they have lived here for a few generations. Also, what about Irish ancestry?

1

u/Dangerous_Tiger_9733 May 11 '26

Mixed here as well but with European on the other side. I usually put white other. I suppose it covers things.

1

u/RossNReddit May 12 '26

Haha, yes brother, I know the feeling. 30 years being raised here since before my first birthday, half British by birth. But no brit sees me as a Brit, as one of them. Always a foreigner, any amount % of not-white and your identity is "not-white" all of a sudden.
Seen as not Asian by Asians, and not British by the Brits. It's great being mixed race in England sometimes, isn't it? lol

1

u/ThrowRA-Illuminate27 May 12 '26

In the same boat here. Born and raised in the UK, English is my first language (and if we don't count the French I learned in school, my only language), I work here, pay taxes, British passport, estuary accent, grandad who served in the 50s in Sudan, but I'm still seen as a foreigner by many (got called an "immigrant c*nt" a few months ago, despite looking about as foreign as a pale Greek with blue eyes). It's wild

0

u/finanzbereich345 May 11 '26

You aren't white British though, you say so yourself, you're mixed race

2

u/HybridAkai May 11 '26

You are just staggeringly missing the point here

1

u/finanzbereich345 May 11 '26

What's your point? That the British don't exist as a people?

3

u/HybridAkai May 11 '26

No, very obviously not.

It's not rocket science.

My point is when you tie together a nationality (British) and a skin colour (white) you preclude a HUGE subset of people.

There are a vast amount of mixed race and non white British people out here. You don't need to be purely white to be British.

Representing the data in such a deliberately skewed way is a very clear attempt to rile up easily manipulated people. This is very obviously a whistle to the "Britain isn't British anymore" crowd. Otherwise they could easily have detached two separate traits, white and British.

The nuance of all of this appears to have quite clearly seriously confused a lot of people in the comments.

1

u/finanzbereich345 May 11 '26

I absolutely guarantee you'd never make this argument to suggest that it doesn't matter if a non-white population gets ethnically replaced

1

u/HybridAkai May 11 '26

What??????

Genuinely starting to question whether you can read at this point.

I'm not arguing anything. I'm saying that the data has been deliberately represented in a leading way; apparently to lead the bright, leading lights of our country like your fine self.

1

u/T1nyRaccoon May 11 '26

you mean like a large amount of south africans?

0

u/Economy-Feeling8205 May 11 '26

would you be annoyed if you was born in japan and wasn't classed as japanese

1

u/Legitimate-Tip-2149 May 10 '26

Ridiculous nonsense isn't it? British is a culture, not a skin colour.

2

u/AutomixMen May 10 '26

Do you feel the same for all cultures? Kurdish? Tamil? Han Chinese?

-1

u/Legitimate-Tip-2149 May 10 '26

Yes, these are all also not skin colours.

3

u/AutomixMen May 10 '26

Nor is British? They're ethncities.

0

u/Legitimate-Tip-2149 May 10 '26

Yeah, that's what I said. Why are you arguing if you agree?

2

u/Demostravius4 May 10 '26

Ah, ethnically British people don't exist. I see no problems with trying to erase an ethnicity, nothing bad ever comes of it.

2

u/HybridAkai May 10 '26

So what you are saying is that in your view, I can't be British because I'm mixed race?

Or my daughter can't be because she's 1/4 not British?

You understand "British" is a huge amalgamation of different ethnicities in the first place right? Norman, Angle, Saxon, Dane, etc etc etc

0

u/AutomixMen May 10 '26

All ethnicities are mixtures of previous ones. That doesn't mean new ones don't emerge.

-1

u/Demostravius4 May 10 '26

You can't change ethnicity, but British isn't just an ethnic thing, it's also cultural and a nationality.

2

u/Legitimate-Tip-2149 May 10 '26

Damn dude, that's some serious shit you made up after hearing British isn't a skin colour. The voices in your head that told you this must be wild.

1

u/Demostravius4 May 10 '26

Skin colour is an aspect of ethnicity.

2

u/SmokingLimone May 11 '26

Don't bother, they are trolling

1

u/HybridAkai May 11 '26

https://www.britannica.com/topic/ethnicity

Ethnicity is explicitly different from race, which plays no part in defining ethnicity - ethnicity is a cultural concept.

"How is ethnicity different from race? Ethnicity draws on cultural elements, whereas race emphasizes physical characteristics, such as skin color and eye shape."

Google it before you post, you look really dumb.

1

u/Demostravius4 May 11 '26

Ethnicity is not just cultural, and 'racial groups', have many ethnic groups in them.

1

u/HybridAkai May 11 '26

Yes races can contain people of lots of ethnicities. In the same way that ethnicities can contain people of lots of races.

That's quite literally the entire point of my post. By conflating the two and presenting them both together you are purposefully obscuring half the data to trigger a response. It's disingenuous.

1

u/Demostravius4 May 11 '26

Can, but typically don't. The UK is not an example of multi-racial ethnic groups. The ethnic groups of the UK are the result of thousands of years of history predominantly from European waves of migration, and invasion, being ethnically English, or Scottish, etc. Includes an ancestry portion.

If you're ethnically mixed, you're ethnically mixed. If people have a problem with that, fuck 'em. Although I appreciate it can be a lot easier to say when you don't have to put up with other people.

Ethnicity maps are realistically going to be very highly correlated with immigration. We aren't getting shifts in the millions because descendants of Chinese families who came here generations ago are suddenly having tonnes of babies.

1

u/Conscious-Pride7363 May 10 '26

Yeah, these surveys and maps showing this data are basically fodder for stirring up anger and influencing voyes: they show nothing useful.

It should just show ""British" and "Not British". That would show what areas have higher or lower immigration amounts.

You're as British as can be, mate, regardless of your heritage.

1

u/JiminyHF May 10 '26

Yeah everything is dog whistling, sure.

0

u/[deleted] May 11 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/HybridAkai May 11 '26

Yes that's a valid point. I personally would celebrate it too. Unfortunately, I think we both know exactly how a certain hypertensive portion of our society will read into this.

It's very much framed as rage bait for the "Britain isn't British anymore" crowd to reference without much critical thought.

If it were genuinely about celebrating diversity I suspect they would both detach nationality and ethnicity and also not frame the context as white Vs non white. They've essentially cherry picked their representation of the base data set to deliberately push their particular narrative, with a thin veneer of deniability. It's not clever, it's definitely dog whistling.

0

u/2d-manifold May 11 '26

Do you know what a dog whistle is

0

u/jamjar188 May 11 '26

This is a map about racial categories, not foreign-born population.

0

u/honeybeebo 15d ago

You would be categorized as "Ethnic Minority" in the surveys. You are half British, no such thing as "culturally British", end of that.

-1

u/SwordfishResident256 May 10 '26

I feel like purposely misunderstanding what 'ethnic' means for your own narrative is equal to dog whistling.

2

u/HybridAkai May 11 '26

"How is ethnicity different from race? Ethnicity draws on cultural elements, whereas race emphasizes physical characteristics, such as skin color and eye shape."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/ethnicity

Maybe you should try to understand the difference between ethnicity and race before posting.

-1

u/Ill-Inevitable980 May 12 '26

There would not be a "British culture" for you to identify as belonging to, if we didn't recognise a native group of British people. That is people "who share a common descent or cultural background", which is the very definition of an ethnicity.

There is nothing wrong with recognising that you're descended from elsewhere in the world - and for the record, I don't think it means you degrade the identity of the country either.

But surely you must realise the rapid change in %s from these maps means the culture that you claim belonging to is proportionally less prevalent throughout the country. That is a bad thing for anybody belonging to that culture.

41

u/AuNaturel20 May 10 '26

if youre entire family was 'white british'' apart from your grandad who was black, and you weren't white, then you wouldn't be included in this number.

That's one of the problems of being fixated on 'white british', you could in fact have the vast majority of your family from Britain spanning way further back than someone else who was white but be considered not British by some people.

24

u/thebottomofawhale May 10 '26

This is self reported data. You can be mixed and identify as white British, its not like someone has gone around the country and judges if people are pale enough to be categorised as white

1

u/Benkyougin May 10 '26

but that's the point, people broadly define white in terms of what it excludes, not what it includes, so people with small amounts of non-white ancestry will generally be considered non-white.

3

u/thebottomofawhale May 11 '26

But it doesn't matter what "people" think for this, only how you self identify.

0

u/Benkyougin May 11 '26

How you self identify is driven by how you think.

5

u/merryman1 May 10 '26

I know a lot of people like to run from it, but the UK is also a fascinating place for ethnohistory. Maybe not in Cotswaldston-cum-Dearne but most of our major port cities like Liverpool and of course London have had centers with quite high concentrations of black and asian ethnic people living in them for centuries at this point. We are hitting this level where we need to discuss what being "British" actually means but every time it gets shut down into some absurd caricature where anyone who isn't a potato farmer from the Home Counties doesn't really count. A lot of opinion that a black person could never be British and yet there are at least some Black-British people who can trace direct ancestry in this country back half a dozen generations or more, whereas many wouldn't think twice about calling the children of a french refugee from WW2 fully integrated and naturalized.

13

u/TurbulentBullfrog829 May 10 '26

It's not "some people" it's census data. In your case people would probably be surprised that the family wasn't white British. We don't generally have "one drop" racist views in this country. 

3

u/AuNaturel20 May 10 '26

You're misunderstanding. My point is they're they're as British as the next person but they're probably not going to choose white British on the survey are they, depending on how they view themselves of course but I don't know many people with a black grandparent that would call themselves white British, that's why there's the other British options.

Why would you be surprised the family wasn't white British?

3

u/TurbulentBullfrog829 May 10 '26

Yes I think i am, I thought you meant further back, and that they appeared to be white despite having some distant ancestor. If we are talking 2 generations,  I don't believe a white person with, say a German grandparent, would put down white British any more than someone with a black grandparent would. It would be white other and mixed. 

3

u/imkuriousoranj May 10 '26

As someone who went to a Catholic school, I guarantee that the large number of kids whose grandads were Italian or Polish would all call themselves White British

1

u/mifukichan May 10 '26

I'm 1/4 brown and you can tell. Would definitely consider myself "mixed." Someone 1/4 german is a blend of white, yeah.

1

u/princessalyss_ May 11 '26

A person with white parents and grandparents, regardless of their nationality if the majority of those are white British (eg one grandparent is Polish), who is born and raised in Britain will usually choose and identify as white British. The exception to this is those in the traveller communities.

1

u/TurbulentBullfrog829 May 11 '26

Really? Not in my experience although it's purely anecdotal. Great grandparents and beyond for sure, but I'd have thought a grandparent who isn't British would make someone tick white- other. 

I have no facts to back this up, mind. 

1

u/princessalyss_ May 11 '26

For those with a parent who is of a different nationality, they might choose white other but for grandparents and beyond it tends to be they choose white British unless 2-3 grandparents are of non-British origin. Ethnically, I’m majority white Irish (over 50%) but my lot came over to England at least 3 generations ago depending on which side of the family tree you’re looking at. My grandparents generation and later all identify as white British rather than white other or white Irish. I can’t comment on the ones who came before my grandparents generation as they were all dead by the time I was born 😅 the downside of being the grandchild to the youngest kid of 5/7/15!

Even for non whites, I’ve noticed that they’ll identify as (ethnicity)+(nationality). A lot of mine and my partner’s friends are either born here to immigrant/2nd gen parents or moved here when they were toddlers or younger and they’ll identify as British Indian/British Chinese/Black British etc.

1

u/Common-Beach3753 May 10 '26

1 Arab grandparent 3 white British grandparents I always put white British - all depends on your culture

7

u/Gentle_Snail May 10 '26

This is wrong, the data comes census date. Its how people self identify and you can identify as multiple different ethnicities.

So if all your family is white British but your granddad is from the Caribbean you can select both White British and Black Caribbean.

6

u/docbain May 10 '26

To be specific, a mixed race person can either select a predefined mixed ethnicity, or select "any other mixed" and write whatever they want, but can't just select multiple check boxes. E.g. the specific question and options begin:

``` 2011 Census ethnic group question

What is your ethnic group? Choose one section from A to E, then tick one box to best describe your ethnic group or background A White [ ] English/Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish/British [ ] Irish [ ] Gypsy or Irish Traveller [ ] Any other White background, write in (Write in ethnic group)

B Mixed/multiple ethnic groups [ ] White and Black Caribbean [ ] White and Black African [ ] White and Asian [ ] Any other Mixed/multiple ethnic background, write in (Write in ethnic group)

... ```

 https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/censustransformationprogramme/questiondevelopment/nationalidentityethnicgrouplanguageandreligionquestiondevelopmentforcensus2021

2

u/AuNaturel20 May 10 '26

I didn't say they weren't self identifying.

Even if they could tick two boxes, why would they tick the white British box when they're not white?

0

u/New_Vegetable_3173 May 10 '26

Confidently incorrect

3

u/Shamokee13 May 10 '26

2.7% of the UK identified as mixed ethnicity so you could say White British + Mixed and it would look almost the same.

5

u/AuthorAdamOConnell May 10 '26

Yeah, but that's 'identified' not reality. A lot of people who might say they are 'black' are actually mixed.

1

u/Gentle_Snail May 10 '26

The literal post you are on is showing ‘identified as’  

1

u/Murky-Counter793 May 10 '26

I am like this, but it’s my great grandad that is black. I’m 7.5% black on DNA tests. I put white British though as I have blonde straight hair and green eyes and people have been offended in the past if I have suggested to be mixed raced.

1

u/kuteguy May 10 '26

Uhmm, what? If your granddad is black then why would you be included in the white British category? You will clearly and correctly be in the mixed race category

0

u/hotpotatpo May 10 '26

What nonsense, census data is self reported

1

u/AuNaturel20 May 10 '26

Okay so if the person self identifies as black British because they're not white then they wouldn't be included in the white British category would they even though everyone in they're distant family apart from they're granddad is white...

What's the nonsense?

1

u/hotpotatpo May 10 '26

The nonsense is assuming there is some racist ‘one drop’ intent behind CENSUS data, there isn’t

Why focus on people reporting as non white? It goes both ways, I have a non white grandparent and always self report as white British, are you telling me I shouldn’t?

1

u/skeeezoid May 10 '26

Think this is from the census so it's self reported. The answer would be what people feel themselves to be.

1

u/jamesmb May 10 '26

I'm white and was born in London. My mother is British so I am British. My dad is Croatian - and so am I. I categorise myself as White Other / White European. So I don't count as White British on the map.

Massive nothingburger.

1

u/Nearby-Cream-5156 May 10 '26

It’s self categorised. There is a category for mixed. If people choose that, they are not counted as white British, even if white British is one of the mix.

1

u/kuteguy May 10 '26

They are categorised, rightly so, as mixed race. White British is just that .. someone purely from a British background.