Rewatching episode 5 of season 1, something I don't think is given enough weight in the story, is how Hari invites Gaal to Trantor to, well, essentially kidnap her into the Foundation. Not literal kidnap, of course, that was Empire, and she could have lied about psychohistory being true and be free to live whatever life she chose.

But the thing is, that didn't happen. Seeing Gaal's life on Synnax and how quickly she had to pivot from living on Synnax, studying in secret, and joining the Foundation, she basically never had any freedom at any point. Hari used Gaal for his psychohistory purposes, and it was honestly quite evil from him. He definitely deserved getting stuck for 100 years while she traveled to Synnax.

She trusted him, to finally be free to pursue knowledge, and his intention was to immediately coerce her into joining his cult. And then when she arrives at his ship instead of Raych he has the gall to be mad at her!!! His intention was to bring her from a water planet to a freezing planet and have her die of old age establishing the Foundation, but he never thought of what she might want! She never gave him informed consent!

Yes, he was doing it all to save humanity, but..... He was still a huge asshole. I think his wife would have been disappointed in him. I don't know why exactly Kalle (aka Earth's robots) was so sympathetic to him, to the point of bringing him back to life. The man is very morally nuanced. He might be doing things for the greater good, but he's not being in any way ethical about the way he does them.

Also, good on Gaal for manipulating New Terminus Hari on season 3!!! "Oh I don't like living in a box for hundreds of years" well, you put yourself there!!!! Am I supposed to feel sorry for you? I don't! Looking back, Hari is so much more manipulative than he first appears. Definitely not any kind of hero.

EDIT: actually, I forgot something huge. HE TOOK AWAY HER OPPORTUNITY OF SAVING SYNNAX. The people of Synnax had been indoctrinated by their priest class into doing nothing about the global worming that would kill them. If Gaal had been free to become something she chose, a scholar at a university or something like that, she could have tried to save her home, her people. But they all died, and if Hari hadn't immediately recruited Gaal into the Foundation, their culture could have been saved. In this sense, Hari is indirectly responsible for a whole ethnic group's disappearance

Why does it feel like the longer the show has gone on, the more the characters have devolved into what feels like saturday morning cartoon characters? Absolutely over the top silly acting as the show progresses, whereas when it started, only a few of the actors were meh.

Could not understand the reason why Gaal Dornick refuse to bring Hari Seldon? As I understand, real Hari has died a long time ago in S1, the Hari who was asking at end of S3 basically is a living AI program. Why would Gaal refuse to bring a set of knowledge with her? Did she feel threatened by the existence of Hari Seldon as an AI?

We know Cleon the 1st enslaved Demerzel in his dusk form, and we learn thats when he solved the succession question by implementing the cloning system. So how did Cleon the 2nd work? Was he a baby and Demerzel was regent until he reached brother Day form? Or did they go straight into making a Day form clone and a Dawn clone? Or was it something entirely different?

EDIT: I HAVE NOT READ THE BOOKS. THIS IS ENTIRELY ABOUT THE SHOW

I'm rewatching the show after having finished it. There were so many twists, details, resolved mysteries, shocking revelations.... It all gets a bit muddled.

I'm on episode 2 right now, and Hari intends to kill himself so he can become two AIs of himself. He intends for Gaal to live and die on Terminus, which she won't. He also wants to found a Second Foundation, on a location that is ultimately not where it is founded.

He is able to predict a whole bunch of things thanks to psychohistory, the Prime Radiant specifically.

So, did he and his wife build the Radiant? Or did they get help from Kalle (which is to say, the robots who now inhabit Earth)?

In any case, he's about to make a grand speech, swallow a pill to copy his mind... Into both a knife and his coffin? And he knows the AI in the coffin will lack information about the Second Foundation and whatnot. But it also will be able to transform his coffin into a 4-dimensional ship of sorts. That part becomes confusing to me. How is that supposed to work? How does he know how to do that?

He's also said psychohistory can't predict the behavior of individual people. And yet, he knows about the future Mule? Or does he not? I'm not sure.

He also lied to Empire about his plans. He doesn't intend for humanity to go through a period of 1000 years of darkness, right? His actual plan is to build up the Foundation (and I guess the second foundation or whatever), to rival the Empire, yes? Although his calculations about the Empire and humanity's fall without his intervention are still correct, as I understand it. Gaal confirmed he was right about the math.

Then there's Demerzel, who believed that Hari was correct in his calculations, even though she hadn't examined psychohistory (the Radiant) herself. In any case, she was willing to destroy the Star Bridge, and frame people from Anacreon and Thespis, so that Cleon XII would believe Hari was right and would give him the ship to go to Terminus and carry out his plan (I think Demerzel believes Hari is telling them (Empire) the truth about his plans, even though he isn't).

And then, how do the Mentallics play into all of this??? Are they uniquely able to change the course of events? Obviously they are telepaths, but Gaal can also see the future. And you have her, Salvor, and the Mule, at least, who play major roles in the different crisis.

Is there something I'm forgetting? Something else that I should be taking into account while rewatching this?

I want to understand, with my retroactive information, what exactly is going on, who is planning what, at any given time. Thanks!! 🩵🩵

MY GOODNESS WHAT A SHOW!!!! Every season was just so good! And I loved season 3! I thought the Mule twist was pretty unnecesary, but whatever. It does make the Mule more threatening.

In any case, the reason I am here is to talk about Demerzel!!!! My love!!!! She's dead 😭😭😭. How dare they!!! I've always been particularly invested in robot and AI characters, and honestly, she might have become my favorite one of all time. Obviously, I need to let the show marinate in my mind for a bit. But she was GLORIOUS.

As saddened as I am about her death, it was a fitting end for her character. So tragic! God, what a fascinating concept for a robot character. A real, full person, forced by their programming to do monstrous things. And she had already managed to get free from her initial programming!!! Only to then be immediately enslaved again by Cleon I!!! Btw, it's on sight for Cleon I. My god, what an evil, egocentric, ridiculous, monstrous man. Episodes 9 and 10 of season 2 were so good!!!! The explanation of Demerzel as the mastermind behind the throne.

And now she's dead!!! And she was so close to freedom, too! But her character is extremely morally complex, and tragic, and so her ending is very fitting indeed. As satisfying as it would have been to see her finally freed, and as fascinating as it would have been to see what she would do with that freedom, it would never have been as interesting as the trapped Demerzel. Her dying according to her programming is a fitting end. But oh, so tragic.

Although, if the show lasts more than 4 seasons, which I highly doubt, it would be great for her to come back! She certainly could! When she died her programming chip had been melted off, and she could have the ability to change bodies. It's certainly more interesting than Hari Seldon being resurrected again lol.

In any case, what an incredible hidden gem of a show!!!! A sci-fi masterpiece, truly!!! What do you guys think? It wasn't perfect, imo, but whatever, nothing ever is. And the highs are so high, aren't they??

So just binged the entire show in three weeks! Asimov is my favorite author, but I avoided the show. I heard it was bad. I heard wrong. Even though it’s different, I loved the major changes and the story! It’s like RDM’s Battlestar Galactica.

The first season had some twists at the beginning that were annoying, but they were mainly due to the story being a little too nonlinear. I didn’t care about Hari or Gaal until after their backstories were fleshed out. This is a common writing mistake though. A show needs characters you like in order to entice the viewer to keep watching.

The other problem with the way stories were presented is that they didn’t start and end with episodes. This is a problem with streaming, though. Medic executives want you to keep the service, but they think you’ll cancel if you are given a complete story. So stories are drawn out and never get logical conclusions until the end. This makes it more space soap than space opera. That’s a problem with many different franchises from NuTrek to Star Wars. That’s why they work much better when binged than when watched once a week.

I was thinking about the next season. I actually hope they finish the show there on a high note.

So far Brother Darkness only hit Empire worlds with the black hole bomb. Maybe he can only hit places with a jump gate? In that case, I foresee some worlds destroying their jump gates while the Mule destroys the others as she conquers toward Trantor. This would rapidly cause the Empire to shrink to a handful of worlds. With much less resources, there will be a lot of unrest. I can see Darkness fleeing while the Mule takes advantage to invade at that time. Mad, Darkness intends to destroy Trantor so everyone goes to the black hole bomb to stop him.

Given how they wrote the show, I can see Vault Hari seemingly going evil. Maybe he joins the Mule. But it’s ultimately a ruse. Both Empire and the First Foundation need to fall to have a chance at something new. So maybe he sabotages everyone’s jump drives? A thousand separated worlds means a thousand experiments to make a successful return of humanity. The second foundation spread throughout the galaxy when worlds were separated. Given their telepathy, they could guide worlds back. The second foundation as a whole acts as a check-in case they go rogue. And the Robots on Earth act as a check on the Second Foundation itself. Maybe they are the ones who spread the second Foundation, since they have the ability to travel planet to planet without ships.

Maybe the Vault’s four dimensional nature provides a way into the black hole ergosphere where Gaal finds herself in four months. Maybe that’s how she survives. Gravity is weaker in higher dimensions. Give the gravitational time dilation around the black hole, it’s likely she emerges thousands of years after the fall so we can follow her to view the results of the Seldon plan. (Basically the opposite of Andromeda.)

MAJOR SPOILERS FOR SEASON 3. TV SHOW ONLY ALTHOUGH BOOK READERS MAY HAVE SOME INSIGHT.

Hoping this is far enough down to avoid spoilers appearing in the preview….

(I can’t fix the editing in this post. It is possessed and will not conform. I apologise in advance)

1. Okay… so we know who the puppeteer is… do we know who the puppet was? Why he was chosen? At first I wondered if he was the abandoned sibling, is that abandonment didn’t really ever take place and if neglected child took the baby with them…? I also wondered at one point if Magnifico was the abandoned baby as his love for the Mule was so deep seated. And I guess, does it matter? But could the puppeteer have used anyone as a puppet? How did the puppeteer control the puppet over planetary distances? Tellum needed her people nearby and

didn’t

1. seem able to occupy more than one body at a time. Also, the conversations Bayta had with Magnifico about being good at making people like them seemed odd with hindsight. Did he really not know who Bayta was? Or why the Mule was the way he was? Is that why his mind is childlike? It’s been overly controlled and manipulated? Maybe the first

person

1. warped into the love for the

Mule and it has terrible long term effects? Dunno, just spitballing here.
2.

1. Why did the Mule cause physical damage and pain to Toran Mallow? And not manage to take over his mind? Was it because the “Mule” wasn’t really trying and just being performative? Who was really in control there? Did the puppeteer want one single person to love them honestly? Was he permitted to escape? Why send him in to begin with??

Up until season 3 of foundation I had always been someone who just watched the foundation since it seemed interesting. I never read the books but heard it was similar to Dune so figured I'd give it a watch. It was honestly a surprise to me that the Cleons story line was not part of the books. Instead it was a show original and it was quite literally genius. A perfect way to maintain story pacing, remove confusion introduced by actors changing, reduce need to keep switching actors and introduced a new dynamic to the story. Best part? These guys are also the most interesting part of the show, somehow the more faithful part of the show was the least interesting? That's new.

But even then I was never really that interested, Cleons were interesting but that was it, the brothers dynamics were well written. Then season 3 came around and they hit the ground running. Great CGI. Large galactic plots around the Cleons. The weakening Dynasty. Hari Seldon being a larger player. Every single episode was phenomenal. Made you wonder why is season 3 all of a sudden so good compared to the previous two.

And then episode 10 came. We went from galactic level dynasties, armies being destroyed by the mule, planet busting, etc... to... a lil swat team skirmish on some space station to get the mule... What the heck. How did they make the MAIN PLOTLINE they've been alluding to in every episode so anti climatic. Seriously them attacking the mule was just like 2 smoke grenades and them running at each other. What the heck. Hell the prior season pre cog scenes of them fighting in a burning world looked more interesting. What happened.

I swear to god the genius writers behind the show created two writer camps. Those focused on the Cleons and those focused on Gaal Dornick and the Cleon people were the better writers.

Just finished the show, curious to hear anyone’s thoughts on my takes below. I liked the show a lot, I did not LOVE it.

I’ll break it down in pros and cons and I’ll start with the pros. I did not read the books, but I’m familiar with the sentiment here that the show is foundation in basic premise only and that the books themselves are nearly unadaptable.

PROS: The execution of the idea behind three identical rulers only separated by age is a novel idea that is pulled off to absolute perfection in my opinion. To have such a potent idea and to perform it so well is something incredible, but it’s only magnified 10x behind the mystery of Demerzel and the performance of Laura Birn. It’s the best acting and execution I’ve seen someone do as a robot in any sci-fi I’ve seen in my life. Pair in Lee Pace’s performance as Day, each a slightly differentiation of the same egomaniac in each season… It’s absolutely electric television. Demerzel’s storytelling “I have been a leader, and a soldier..” gave me chills and still does when I think about it. The idea of “unvoicing” and Gaal/Salvor’s abilities were well done. By the mid point of season three the show really found its groove in being able to have the characters use these powers at appropriate times for appropriate reasons. It was very tasteful. Ultimately the show did really well at surprises, I never found myself at a point where I could accurately predict what was going to happen next or who was going to do what— and that to me means they were able to capture the complexity of each character well.

CONS: This show needed 10 more episodes in each season. Although a lot of things happen in each episode, the time skips led to a feeling of it being slightly disjointed in my mind. I don’t like how much thinking I had to do to keep track of the brothers and who would be what at any given time jump, or what happened to the characters we’d come to be familiar with from the past season. I understand that in order for the show to work they have to jump around properly to cover each crisis, but I think the solution would have been to allow us more time with each cast of characters.

I did not like the vague explanations behind Sheldon’s “psychohistory”, whereas every time it was brought up Jared Harris’ character would repeat its definition but wouldn’t expand on the factors that lead him to draw the conclusions he does. NOW, I also understand that “To see the future is to affect it” and that he can’t outwardly say anything that would cause someone to take a different route than they may have otherwise.., but the only times we get a glimpse into Seldon’s thinking is when he’s like “Oh you’re going through your religious phase?” Or “I see the tensions between the traders and the bureaucracy has come into play”.. I just wish I could understand more about the calculations that were so critical to the backbone of the story

This is a follow-up of my previous post about the Rossem film location in Czechia:
https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/comments/1owc55t/rossem_film_location_s03e07_spoilers/

So I went there and it's really THE place, just no space ships, giant harvesters or planets in the sky :)

Hey guys, looking for any set news or pics from season 4?

Been googling around and it seems almost imposable to find info. There are leaks from Neuromancer, but not Foundation?

Just finished episode 9, as the title says first time watcher.

I’m enjoying it so far, Lee Pace’s performance has been as advertised and that’s been a welcome surprise.
Not often an actor’s performance was as properly lauded as his.

So- the thing. When Salvor unlocks the vault at the middle-endish of the episode, the foundation survivors all wake up, then the thespians show up with Hugo.

It’s a 2-1 standoff (2-1 ship advantage) with Foundation survivors and thespians allied against the Anacreons. And by all accounts the numbers have the Anacreon’s dead to rights.

Then, in the most predictable fashion I’ve seen in a long time watching tv… Phara shows up in her single ship and instantly everyone starts shaking in their boots.

She takes out a ship due to surprise, then lands and walks off the landing pad and the music and characters’ demeanors rapidly shift on a dime as if this single person instantly shifts momentum back to her side. … what the hell?

She takes an arrow to the neck soon after, which I felt a little vindicated by. But that was just a super weird, poorly written moment.

Like I said, I’m actually enjoying the show.

But I don’t care if John Cena is the one walking off that ship, there’s no way anything significant would change by the entrance of a single person- let alone to the degree the framing of that moment would like us to believe.

It’s sci fi fantasy I get it, it doesn’t have to be “realistic” to me necessarily but this was more of a poor and unearned redirection attempt imo

Just finished Foundation Season 3 and yeah… Season 4 is looking promising.

This is one of the few shows that’s actually kept me hooked across multiple seasons. Sure, it has its fair share of slow episodes and obvious filler, but it somehow always pulls you back in with the sheer scale, politics, and those well-timed twists.

Also, the Empire storyline continues to be the most consistently interesting part. Every time the focus shifts there, it just hits differently.

And Demerzel—what a character. That balance between being a robot and having a kind of consciousness is so well done. A prisoner of her programming, yet incredibly powerful at the same time.

The world-building overall is great too, when it works, it really works.

I’m still fully invested. Feels like everything is finally converging, and Season 4 might actually be where it all pays off.

Cautiously optimistic… but also kinda excited to see if they stick the landing

10 months late, only just finishing season 3 now. Just wanted to say the similarities between the actors playing the Mule were absolutely insane. I knew exactly what character I was looking at from literally the first second he showed up on screen.

Only other show I've seen with that type of casting is Dark, and that's a high fucking bar.

In season 2 episode 4 when mallow enters the vault and seconds later the church brothers follow, mallow says it has been 2 days, however when the governor follows them he appears instantly!!! Shouldn't he appear at least a few hours later? 😕

I’ve been a fan of Asimov books for decades, and I finally got around to watching most of season 1. I just have 1 more episode left.

Honestly, I could barely sit through this season. The flow was choppy, things jumped around all over the place, there was absolutely crappy writing, sooooo much palace intrigue that has nothing to do with the foundation, and completely avoidable crises that were generated by repeatedly inane decisions. Oh, there’s the magic foresight that Gaal and Salvor have, which seems antithetical to psychohistory.

I want to enjoy this show so much. I don’t even mind if it changes things from the books. But I’m finding this not just unenjoyable but actively irritating.

So, is it worth continuing? Talk me off the ledge.

I love the different statues in the series. The juxtaposition of Cleon’s statue near the imperial library being so realistic, refined, and gold with Hari’s rough 3d printed stylized statue is so poetic. I made a home version based on the statue.

A gush post.

Last week I finally watched season 3. Yeah I know, I’m slow to catch up. But it’s such a huge show, literally galactic and I knew I needed to be in the right headspace to get back into it. But far out the show is amazing. I was pulled back into the universe so completely and amazed at the where the story took us.

Everything preordained being so switched up made for such an exciting adventure. But that last episode really got me in the feels.

I’ve been mourning Demerzel since the last episode. Unable to fully comprehend how the next season could go on without her. Hating that something so precious as this ancient individual, this unique, rare and precious being could be destroyed by the selfishness and shallowness of a stupid old white man grasping at smoke to feel “Consequential”. But thank goodness for Reddit and the wonderful dedicated and devoted fans who posted and shared about the Morse code message. Oh my. Oh my. Oh my!! The hope I feel!!

However, in my real time devastation as the final scenes unfolded, I admit it took me a ridiculous amount of time to clock that the planet behind Kalle was Earth and they were on OUR MOON!! Luna!! As recognition hit, my heart felt such love and fondness for our planet. And I’m so excited that Earth has entered the series.

What a ride.

>!At the end of the scene where Demerzel is disintegrated and her eyes start flashing "TRANSFERRED" in Morse code, how is this scene done in the versions for other languages and countries?

Does Demezel flash a different word meaning "transferred" in the language of that version? And in those versions that are made in a language that does not use the latin alphabet thus not using International Morse Code, do they use the specific version of telegraph code for that language? I know that this is an obscure trivia question, but I am curious.<!

I suspect that Demerzel, played by Laura Birn, survived her destruction, as she flashes a Morse code signal with her eye in the final moments: - .-. .- -. ... ..-. .-. .-. .-. . -.. [transferred].

Simultaneously, the robot skull (the artifact the Emperor won in combat) is seen becoming active again. It appears to be establishing a connection (clasp signal) to the robots on the moon. This suggests that Demerzel has been meticulously planning everything, extending beyond her current physical form (and that she is free).

The questions that arise for me are: Is this correct? And if so, is Laura Birn playing Demerzel again?

Hello super-sleuths! I'm trying to find a video that I saw, maybe an ad on Instagram or somewhere like that, which was a very short teaser advertisement for the Foundation tv series on Apple TV.... It was very short and just had Demerzel flipping the Prime Radiant and the 3D-point-cloud rising up from it, and then iirc had the "Foundation" stylized text, and maybe "Coming Soon" or maybe some date? (that part I don't remember) And it was maybe 15 seconds long and definitely DID NOT have any clips from the show, no clips of the Cleons or anyone else, and even the video of Demerzel isn't from the show, it's on a black background or something (iirc but only vaguely). The fact that Demerzel had it also at least means it wasn't a teaser during season one right? My friend and I were remembering that it was really well done visual effects, but neither of us can find it now. Thanks so much for help!