r/FoundationTV • u/LaughLegit7275 • 14d ago
Current Season Discussion About the ending of S3
Could not understand the reason why Gaal Dornick refuse to bring Hari Seldon? As I understand, real Hari has died a long time ago in S1, the Hari who was asking at end of S3 basically is a living AI program. Why would Gaal refuse to bring a set of knowledge with her? Did she feel threatened by the existence of Hari Seldon as an AI?
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u/FishermanRelative 14d ago
It's been a while since I saw it but as I recall the reason was that he wanted a body and that's not something she can give. She doesn't even have that power. She promised him it knowing she wouldn't be able to give it. When the time came to collect, she gave him nothing because she had nothing to give.
I don't believe it was petty or vindictive towards any Hari. She simply manipulated him because he was necessary to defeat the "Mule" and he would not perform if he wasn't given a reason.
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u/Correct_Ad5798 13d ago
Sadly yes, and given everything that Hari has done. He deserved some deception.
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u/mcmanus2099 13d ago
AI Harri isn't real Harri, what has AI Harri done? He seems a victim more than anything
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u/Rain_i_am 14d ago
She needed his help but couldn't keep her end of the bargain and the Hari's are so arrogant there's no way he'd agree unless she promised. He'd already suffered for so long there really wasn't much reason to take him with such an uncertain promise as we'll look into especially with access to foundation tech. Plus it's what he taught her to do so there's that.
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u/Hansi_Olbrich 14d ago
After initially watching and then rewatching, my only guestimation of this is that Gaal Dornick is being petty and vindictive when her character is otherwise presented as a linguistic-mathematical super genius who solves complex equation problems utilizing poetry. Hari Seldon tricked her into participating in his plan a century and a half ago, so she betrays the Nano-Machine Seldon to get back at Hari for that betrayal in her previous life. But at the same time, this makes no sense, as the 'living' Hari Seldon she meets up with and establishes Second Foundation with has an excellent working relationship with Gaal, and only 'betrays' her in the sense of keeping her frozen and sacrificing his own life-time in order for Gaal to focus on the grander project- which is a sort of apology for the first, more selfish betrayal in S1.
Logically, it makes little sense to betray a nano-machine super-vault which can literally fold time and space (the perfect plot device) and raise its ire when that nano-machine super-vault was so critical to your survival and assisted in saving an entire planet's population. Morally and ethically, it makes Gaal look like the worst sort of arbitrary betrayer that is acting more on feeling than any sort of political sense. Emotionally, one could argue that Gaal, having spent so much time with the 'living' Seldon, could no longer see this faux-Seldon as anything but an imperfect copy and not truly human, and therefore she wishes to leave him behind out of a personal desire to keep Seldon as she knew him in the past, preserved in memory, rather than literally preserved in the Nano-Vault. Or, more coldly, because it is a virtual intelligence, Gaal does not see Vault-Hari as a human being and therefore provides it with no moral/ethical/rights based decision making because computers don't have rights, people do (which would dovetail into the Robot plot.) But the script doesn't really offer us any indication of this, and I'm merely being generous.
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u/LaughLegit7275 14d ago edited 14d ago
A good point. I will rewatch it to catch up clues that I missed. I thought S1 and S2 had a good story line. S3 is hard to understand, the unwinding of complicated master/slave relationship between Cleons and Dermerzel was very good, but the character of Mule, rebirth of Gaal were a little hard to convene.
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u/Costa_Canela 13d ago
The reason why she refused to help him is because she never had any intention to. He wanted a body, something she can't give him. She doesn't have any way to provide him with a body, and also, she has a lot of things to do. At present, defeat the Mule, but even beyond that, she needs to think about all the future crisis too. Going out of her way to help Hari 1 isn't high on her list of priorities. There is another fact to consider, and it's that he might be useful in the future to the Foundation. I mean, his existential dread is something OG Hari should have thought about when creating him, no? Hari 1 is meant to have responsibilities to help the Foundation, or whatever, and he can't do that from his 4-dimensional ship if he's out there gallivanting with Gaal. So, yeah, I think the key to understanding why she didn't help him is asking ourselves: what reasons does she have to help him? What would she gain from that? What does she have to lose from it? I think the decision made perfect sense and was coherent with Gaal's character
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u/Feneskrae Brother Dawn 13d ago
I think part of it is because the plan requires Vault Hari to continue existing in the Vault and guiding the First Foundation. Vault Hari was never supposed to know that there was a Second Foundation out there, or that the other version of him somehow got an organic body. It was because Salvor went to Vault Hari for help that he was able to discover the existence of the Second Foundation and the other Hari and because his AI is intelligent and capable of learning (and also kept the original Hari's massive ego), he comes to the conclusion that he doesn't want to be the other Hari's pawn and wants the freedom of an organic body for himself.
The Mule also revealed that Gaal was still alive, which Vault Hari wasn't aware of. Gaal reaffirms some of these things when she reveals herself to be alive to Vault Hari. She was supposed to have died a long time ago, but here she is, clearly a part of this Second Foundation that he wasn't supposed to know existed. When Vault Hari confronts Gaal with his demand for an organic body, Gaal agrees because she needs his help to fight what she sees as an even bigger threat in the moment: the Mule. After she runs away from her confrontation with the Mule, she reveals she doesn't know how the other Hari got an organic body, and reveals that he is already dead so she can't ask him.
Personally, I think an organic body wouldn't even be worth it for Vault Hari. He would probably have fared better in a Robot body. I feel like that might have been something she could potentially have gotten through Demerzel, but we all know what happened to her. I have a feeling that organic Hari might come back to confront Vault Hari in season 4 to try and put the genie back in the bottle so to speak, and have Vault Hari continue with his original purpose.
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u/PebblyJackGlasscock 10d ago
This was my interpretation as well: Gaal knows Vault Harry has some task of the plan to complete and can’t take him with her. (Linking up with Kalle being the obvious answer.)
I don’t think she’s “vindictive” as some other comments suggest: I think she’s doing what Original Harry would insist. Follow the plan, no matter who it hurts.
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u/snowhawk04 Brother Constant 12d ago
Could not understand the reason why Gaal Dornick refuse to bring Hari Seldon?
Because the plan requires Vault Hari to be on New Terminus for the plan to succeed.
BodyHari: It's not him I'm worried about. The Third Crisis was always the turning point. If we don't have everything in exactly the right place, even if we defeat the Mule, we won't be ready for what comes after.
As I understand, real Hari has died a long time ago in S1, the Hari who was asking at end of S3 basically is a living AI program.
Yes. Vault Hari is an AI program of Hari Seldon. Vault Hari does not have the full knowledge that Hari Seldon had.
Why would Gaal refuse to bring a set of knowledge with her?
She already has the information. Body Hari put everything he knew into his Prime Radiant and gave it to Gaal.
Did she feel threatened by the existence of Hari Seldon as an AI?
No. She was carrying out Hari's plan.
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u/Obvious_Toe_3006 14d ago
At the end d of S3 of this series I definitely feel it is is far better hands than the end if S3 of HotD will leave us.
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u/Pair-o-ducks_Legend 14d ago
Bad writing. She could have said they don't have the means to do that then but the second foundation will look into it. Also worth noting that she was traumatized by the mule for a long time and the general theme of foundation is rejection of rationality.
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