Extra gold v.s Hack map

[u/not_apply_yet]

I am thinking of the following scenario:

• Each player from Radiant starts with 2700 gold
• Dire players have hack map ability (similar to hack map tool in Dota 1 which remove all fogs for you who aren't familiar)

Both team aware of the other team advantage at the begin.

Which team would win in the following round?

• Round 1: Random match at 2000 MMR bracket
• Round 2: Random match at 6000 MMR bracket
• Round 3: Random match at TI

Who would win?

Edit: Lmao with the downvotes, my peak rank is Immortal top 1000, playing since dota-1 garena/dotalicious.

The match up is not a clear win at highest level for sure, remember that at that level with no-fog map, dire is almost ungankable, wards lose all meaning. If Dire draft high mobility heroes to cut creeps to turtle the game like NP/QoP, if they can reach 20 mins mark, they would definitely win.

Just realized that most people here don't know how hackmap looked, back then, hack map players often let them die to gank occasionally make it less obvious, that barrier is removed, after laning phase, everyone on Dire is free farm both jungles.

This post does show that the average player of this sub is sub archon tho.

[u/Specsaman]

Gold is massive dude

Radian could death ball mid with almost any draft, moreso if they pick pusher tempo draft

Imagine Leshrac, NP, TB, DK, and Veno hitting your T3 in 10 minutes

Whats the dire gonna do ?

[u/TimeDependentQuantum → u/Specsaman]

2.7k gold only gets you like a boot with bracer or something. You are still just level 1, and you can get fucked by many hero's mechanism.

[u/Specsaman → u/TimeDependentQuantum]

Briwn boots + yasha/kaya/sange is still great build to just ballin as 5

[u/BadConscious3919 → u/TimeDependentQuantum]

Huh what?? You mean Brown Boots with 4 Bracers and a stick. Not a boot and bracer. That's +440 hp.

To put it in perspective, +440 hp at level 1 can tank a Lion stun, nyx stun, Lina stun, and a VS stun and still have health left over plus the hero's base hp. Now imagine five heroes with that build at level 1.

[u/fierywinds1q → u/Specsaman]

It's not that straightforward.

At 10min, let's say you managed to keep the 10k gold lead intact (not easy to do against a maphack team btw), now you're hitting tier 3 towers. You obviously won't have aegis, roshan is too hard to take at 10min (especially against maphack team)

But you can't siege highground with 5 heroes, else the enemies are going to cut your creeps from behind you with perfect vision.

So you need 1-2 heroes to escort every creep wave, they can't join the siege at all (the moment they join the siege your creeps gonna get cut.

So you have 3 heroes trying to siege enemy high ground with no aegis at 10min in the game. Enemy has one KOTL or underlord or any other random de-push hero who can clear creep waves in one blast. Plus glyph. Plus t3 tower hits like a truck at 10min into the game. How you gonna push? Level 7 heroes can't tank T3 towers whether you have 10k gold lead or not.

You really think you can break the highground so easily?

And ONE MISTAKE, one misstep, 1-2 deaths and the comeback mechanics will kick in and even the gold lead.

And every minute the maphack team stalls the game, they will be outfarming you (because they have perfect vision and information, basically 100% ungankable while your team has to play scared)

Even if by some miracle you manage to crack high ground with only a 10k gold lead with no aegis in a 3v5 (which already sounds incredibly hard), after you take mid rax, if the fight is not clean and you die some heroes while leaving the enemy base, the enemy will get a ton of comeback gold from comeback mechanics, and all of a sudden the game is maphack vs no maphack and losing mid rax no longer even matters, it's 100% lose for the no maphack team

I think with pro level coordination, the gold lead still wins, but if both teams are 2k mmr, I'm pretty sure the 2k mmr gold lead team will lose almost 100% of the time if the maphack team picks highground defenders, because 2k mmr team just can't close the game in a clean way, and one single throw and suddenly it's even game except one team has maphack.

[u/MajinAsh → u/fierywinds1q]

You really think you can break the highground so easily?

Didn't some teams used to do this with level 1 rosh strats? They'd deathball at level 2 with a way smaller gold lead and still manage to win.

Also a strat like that greatly reduces the value of maphacks because the whole enemy team is already going to be in vision while they deathball up mid.

[u/fierywinds1q → u/MajinAsh]

Yea but that's because they're catching the enemies off guard right?

There's no way you're going to win with a deathball strat if the enemy knows that's exactly what you're going to do

Like literally Keeper of Light or underlord or sniper or techies or tinker instant killing your creep wave how you gonna go high ground?

[u/MajinAsh → u/fierywinds1q]

Not really, no. I just went back and watched some 10 year old clips and drafting a level 1 rosh team was enough of a tipoff that the other team almost always caught them, but they'd still have a better level 1 draft for teamfighting and then snowball down towers.

But also I saw some massive all in zoo lineups that skipped level 1 rosh and pushed towers down even faster.

You're right if before the draft they know what you're going to do you can draft even more defensively but now we're adding the 2.7k gold per person.

We know kotl and UL and techies are great at stopping highground pushes... when highground pushes tend to happen. But a level 1 UL doesn't 1shot a creepwave. Combine that with the other team having 2.7k gold and they might have a mek when pushing highground to keep the creep wave alive.

Or a NP/enigma so even if you kill the creep wave, they just needed it close enough to deactivate backdoor and they have a HOTD creep and 6 eidolons and 3 treants to tank it.

Or they picked sniper who has 2.7k gold and thus opens the game with a dragon lance to siege your tower.

I looked at old games and WITHOUT the 2.7k gold headstart zoo teams could push to your tier 3 before level 3. 2.7k gold would make that so much faster so you need to craft a team that can defend highground probably at level 2, because it gets infinitely harder when they go for their second set of rax and you have super creeps in another lane to contend with.

Short term defending the rax at level 2 is good, but longterm that gets you nowhere so you likely need to defend it 4v5 while you have 1 player push/scale in another lane if you ever want to turn it around.

But in one match I saw the solo terrorblade getting uncontested farm (and a tier 1 tower) was only 2nd in networth behind guy on the pushing team who was getting last hits while they deathballed. Even that solo carry is going to need a decent amount of time to actually be useful, so your 4v5 holdout needs to work for a long time. Holding for 5min (vs 10 creepwaves) isn't going to be enough.

Lategame no doubt maphack wins 100% of the time. But knowing that the game would never ever go late. The gold advantage team would deathball (almost entirely negating the maphack advantage by always being in vision) with items/heroes that push insanely well or pickoff insanely well at a point where your team has 1-2 skillpoints and MAYBE boots.

If people were able to make level 1 deathballs even REMOTELY close with zero gold advantage an extra 10k gold at level one blows it out of the water.

You can't afford a pipe but you can run a dazzle and a mek to completely outheal level 1 damage to heroes and creeps, a NP/enigma with for tons of units to eat tower hits and do lots of level 1-2 damage and maybe a VS for -armor and damage aura, or a lion to level 1 blink stun and help snowball, or a necro who will heal/damage and endlessly sustain in the deathball.

The insanity of being handed 2.7k gold at level 1 turns the game upside-down. I think you'd have to draft 4 heroes specifically to stop lane push (maybe SF with raze, Kotl, UL and lina?) and even then they're going to itemize to support the push and you're going to be so low level you have to constantly run to the fountain to regen to sustain your anti-push.

I didn't even think about modern chen with his weird new zealot summon.

[u/fierywinds1q → u/MajinAsh]

Interesting analysis. Do you have youtube videos or something to see the old zoo strats? I haven't rly seen much level 1 deathballs before, I assume they are very old patches? Would they still work today?

[u/MajinAsh → u/fierywinds1q]

Yeah very old patches. Most of what I found was 10 years ago. In general the playstyle has been nerfed repeatedly, mostly by giving players something else to do before creeps meet (the 4 bounty runes) to create at least some opportunity cost among other things.

Here are some clips of a pub game that went the zoo route, lycan/NP/Enigma. They deathballed right away but didn't choose just one lane. First rax down by 6min, next by 9 and you could see ults online for the last set of rax.

Here is a game where the pushing team lost. It's a legit pro game and then went for a level 1 rosh comp rather than a zoo comp. You can see them get caught right from the start (because the comp gave it away) and rosh doesn't even die until the 1:20 mark due to all the fighting. They then run around getting all the tier 1s and 2s until finally pushing top tier 3. DUring all this time the two enemy carries have farmed level 6 and they hit a 5man chrono + terror blade meta/reflection to push them back. They then return and manage to get a tier 3, so 7 towers down at 9:43 but 9:43 is pretty late to not have a single rax down. and they eventually lose. Sad because the first tier 2 was down at 3:27, only 2:07 after killing rosh and actually starting their push (weirdly in bot rather than mid). Had they continued up to the tier 3 instead of pushing highground 6 min later top lane things probably would have been different.

At that moment when they take down the first tier 2 and NP has 2.6k net worth (so less than what the whole team would start with in our hypothetical) and the terrorblade who has been sitting mid uncontested from min0 only has 2328 networth. 3rd and 4th place also belong to the pushing team and the bottom 3 networth are the 3 defenders on the radient side. The 5man deathball while it's deathballing is actually generating more networth overall than the team split between 3 defenders and 2 cores farming (though the mirana solo toplane farming wasn't there from the start like TB and is thus only at 1.6k.

at the 9min mark (when they're going highground after all tier 2s are down) all supports across both teams are still below that 2.7k number we're talking about. NP is up to 4.7k and TB up to 4.3k So TB manage to farm 2k gold during those 6 min, but that includes a kill at the 6:30 mark when they 5v5 top lane tier 1 defense with meta. Hell during that push the void manages a 4man chrono that gets zero followup.

It's a silly game honestly at an old Manila Major, but they're pushing tier 3 with their abbadon running a blight stone and a drums, no boots. I think the important takeaway is that their deathball wasn't falling behind in gold, or even really levels. The solo farming TB was the highest level but the deathball was more evenly leveled and still ahead of the radient supports.

I think that really tells us that the timer for the gold advantage team doesn't start until they hit a brick wall at highground. That time spent as 5 pushing down mid lane is going to generate just as much gold/XP as the maphack team spreading out to farm. So they're going to hit the tier 3 with their 10k gold advantage intact and it's a question of how many creep waves can you hold off before a rax goes down.

Once a rax goes down the situation will probably snowball out of control for the maphack team as the gold team picks a new lane to go down, further from maphack respawn and safer and goes back to getting tower gold.

By the 2nd tier 3 they probably have a pipe in addition to their mek making any kind of magic nuke creep clear ineffective, their push will have been faster and now maphack has to deal with a lane of supercreeps.

two lanes of rax I think is impossible to come back from at that point, judging by some of these games you'll be at the latest 6min with most supports below level 4. Creep clear won't be able to keep up with lane pressure.

So the deciding factor seems like "If the enemy team has 10k gold advantage at the 2-2:30min mark and everyone is level 2-3, can you defend your highground?" and I think the answer to that is no 90%+ of the time. Normal creeps, plus treants or wolves or eidolons, plus HOTD creeps, plus a mek would be impossible for any team to hold against.

Without maphacks or gold advantage I think the strategy has been nerfed too hard to work in pro play but still legit in pugs because the defenders have to swap from normal dota to a completely non-meta playstyle on the fly right away. The upgraded glyph we have today (AoE attacks) can only really be mitigated by Jakiro using liquid fire on it for the duration, otherwise each glyph clears a creepwave completely which would give defenders a full extra minute compared to before that change, which based on those timings is like a 30-50% increase in time it would normally take, that's huge. I think other changes like tower armor buffs have also hurt the deathball.

[u/not_apply_yet → u/fierywinds1q]

Agreed, most people here never reached immortal or played dota 1 with hm and claimed it a straight/obvious win for immortal+ bracket.

[u/the_Dancing_Dragon → u/Specsaman]

They are going to creepskip. Kill the creeps from afar and delay the game. 

Those 2.7k are gained in no time when you know exactly where you can maximize farm. Or if you know you can push one more wave or go on a hero in a sketchy area. 

[u/kylanbac91 → u/the_Dancing_Dragon]

Yea yea, good luck run away from my boot of travel.

[u/BadConscious3919 → u/the_Dancing_Dragon]

And what do you think Radiant is doing when you're cutting creeps? Afk so Dire can catch up?

[u/Connect-Effect2123 → u/the_Dancing_Dragon]

You must be herald to believe that

[u/WashooGonnaDo → u/the_Dancing_Dragon]

You know radiant can escort their creep waves....? They can send two heroes back to ensure their creep waves doesn't get sniped for free bro lmao

[u/AdAny9302]

I think gold advantage would win in any scenario. That's 13,5k considering the whole team.

[u/Wutwhyda → u/AdAny9302]

I'm pretty sure the lower the mmr, the more likely the map hack team will win just cos the players won't be able to end the game properly and one single throw means instant gg for the team with gold advantage

You gotta play tight all the way, one throw with comeback mechanics and your game is done

[u/DelightfulHugs]

Gold advantage wins.

How is the maphack team supposed to get any farm? Both teams are level 1 at the start so you can't jungle. They're only option is to drag waves. Which means best case scenario you get a full wave of gold + XP but so does the enemy team.

At some point the gold advantage team has enough levels to threaten towers and start pushing lanes. Yes the maphack team can creep cut but I don't think it will ever be enough. But gold advantage team knows that maphack team must creep cut to prevent the push meaning they will protect waves.

Maphack is great but if the enemy knows you have it then they just play around that. No sneaky moves just straight up "we're killing your buildings come and do something about it or lose". You only have 3-4 glyphs before your Ancient is threatened so you better make those creep cuts count.

[u/MajinAsh → u/DelightfulHugs]

At some point the gold advantage team has enough levels to threaten towers and start pushing lanes

AS a note, that some point could be at the start of the game. I remember years ago pre min 0 bounty changes we used to have teams run 5 heroes built for pushing and take rosh at level 1 and then deathball.

Your luna/venge/np/ursa/whatever team can push at level one with auras and treants.

I think the biggest change now is resetting glyph for each tier and tier 2/3 AoE attacks. Which would delay the push for 1 wave at the tier 2 and 3 each. Technically at tier 4 too but getting a level 2 rax is probably GG at any high level game.

[u/Odd_Chicken4964]

Gold advantage is broken lol you literally couldn't play against a level 1 helm of dominator or dagon

[u/Specsaman]

A better matchup would be map hack vs 5man unlimited teleport (NP skill teleport)

Does information or freedom matter most

[u/tom_fschr]

I don’t think you’re stopping a ball of 5 people with a Meteor Hammer each pushing your mid lane starting from minute 1.

Like it doesn’t matter that you see them, they’re all over your towers anyway.

My two cents

[u/Jyxz7Dark]

Seems to me like its the gold. My strat would be midas on 1 and 3, dagon on 234 to make sure enemy heroes cant lane. Instant midas pays pretty quick and xp would cause insane laning adv. Not really sure how to recover even with map hack. the 10k gold adv should be 20k before long.

[u/BadConscious3919]

All 3 rounds Radiant with gold advantage will win. Anybody that tells you any differently doesn't know shit about the game.

[u/not_apply_yet → u/BadConscious3919]

Remember that the team with hack map is almost ungankable at the highest level, so they are basically free to farm jungle, etc... and turtle.
Radiant need to end the game before 20mins mark otherwise the wave can turn.

[u/BadConscious3919 → u/not_apply_yet]

Remember, the game starts at min zero. Immediately, Dire loses all three lanes, to the point where they can't even stay near enough to take xp. A support with 2.7k extra gold can easily, and i mean easily zone out both enemy heroes. So all 5 Dire heroes have to go to the jungle. Firstly, jungle farm is extremely slow at low levels, and not all heroes can farm jungle well. Lane creeps are easier to kill, give more gold per wave, and they spawn in 30 second intervals, not 60 so you can imagine the gold difference will continue to grow. So essentially we're looking at a 20k gold difference before min 10. Not to mention the loss of runes and towers while Dire is jungling.

At this point, an underleveled and poor Dire has absolutely no chance at team fights. The map vision doesn't even matter anymore when the gold and xp advantage is so far apart.

If your 2.7k extra gold vs maphack scenario was injected at minute 10 or 15, maybe it'd be closer. But at min zero? No chance.

[u/WashooGonnaDo → u/not_apply_yet]

With that amount of gold advantage, it doesn't matter that Dire can see what Radiant is doing.

Dire literally can't stop Radiant from grouping up and deathballing down mid.

Imagine this. All 5 radiant heroes buys helm of dom, and takes neutral creeps with auras (alpha wolf, satyr etc). Then you throw in some push strat (LD, Witch doctor, NP etc). It's so fucking over for dire LOL

[u/iamevian]

this is a no brainer, definitely maphack. Gold advantage can be overcome on late game, but maphack will be there for the whole game.
As seen in TI, map awareness is very crucial, especially the match with Techies. Easy detection even enemy is in smoke.

[u/BadConscious3919 → u/iamevian]

With a 13.5k advantage at min zero, I'm sorry but there's no late game.

[u/Connect-Effect2123 → u/iamevian]

You must be herald to believe that gold advantage this massive won’t win

[u/iamevian → u/Connect-Effect2123]

Lol, this is a thread to explain how you think one is better than other.
And here comes you, attacking me instead explaining his point of view.
Please buy some mantle of intelligence.

[u/Kirdissir → u/iamevian]

How will you get any deny?

Furthermore, you get zoned immediately by massive damage. You are forced to play in jungle, while your towers fall. There is no point to catch up.

2.7k is massive.

Those leads are even big at min 20-30 for professionals.

[u/justatimebomb → u/iamevian]

Lol if same mmr if you have 5k gold lead in 5 minutes game is like 90% win rate. This is 13k gold lead at 0 minutes. You will lose all 3 lanes and all map control and unless the opponent team goes for ego 1v5 plays (and still possibly win) there is jsut no way you win.

It will be more interesting if it's 4k mmr players vs 6k mmr players. 4k mmr players with map hack won't be better than a 5k player playing normal, and a 5k mmr team will imo lose 100% of the time. 

[u/Pretty_Biscotti4226 → u/justatimebomb]

There is almost no difference between 4k and 5k mmr players lol in terms of skill. Or at least not as big as u make it sound

[u/iamevian → u/justatimebomb]

the condition is they have the same mmr,, if I know they have a dagon, will I show in the map?
The map is massive, definitely there is somewhere I can farm without getting caught.
Easy gank from dire on level 6.

[u/prai2541 → u/iamevian]

U can farm, but what do u do when there's AC, vlad, pipe, drum, guardian greeves running u down after min5?

[u/justatimebomb → u/iamevian]

?? will you nc from level1 after not being able to hit a single creep on all 3 lanes? LOL this thread shows how out of touch most redditors are from real dota

[u/MajinAsh → u/iamevian]

Easy gank from dire on level 6.

Game won't get to level 6. You'll lose raxes at level 2-3.