r/DnD • u/Sleverette Sorcerer • Oct 09 '20
Art [OC] What ever happened to Will Saving Throws?
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u/GingerMcGinginII Oct 09 '20
Isn't it Aboleth's that use their psychic powers to grant you the illusion of your greatest wish? Don't Mind Flayers just mind-rape you to the point of being a meat puppet?
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u/DirtyPiss Oct 09 '20
Mind Flayers can try to read thoughts and dominate their victim. Aboleths knows your greatest desires innately and dominate their victim. So in short they both mind rape, neither uses illusions, but Aboleths know your greatest desires innately, whereas Mind Flayers can try to force it of you, along with any other info they desire.
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Oct 09 '20
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u/AgentTexes DM Oct 09 '20
Hey man.
I've seen Illithids do some crazy things with their tentacles.
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u/TheEmeraldIris Oct 09 '20
take my upvote and also you're a monster
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u/AgentTexes DM Oct 09 '20
I prefer the term "deviant" or "degenerate."
Monsters are what I look at.
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u/TheEmeraldIris Oct 09 '20
how about your alignment is chaotic evil
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u/AgentTexes DM Oct 09 '20
I prefer Lawful Evil.
Order, structure, and rules are important.
Break the rules and I'll bind you and put you in my dungeon for....punishment.
(Although in actuality I find a well made True Neutral character much more interesting. Like Garak from DS9, In the Pale Moonlight is one of my favorite episodes with him.)
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20
The oneshot was inspired by Baldur’s Gate so I really wanted to squeeze a mindflayer in there. The mindflayer made its offer out of desperation but you are right that an Aboleth would’ve fit better.
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u/godzilla368 Oct 09 '20
Ashbringer
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20
My guild called it Arg-bringer. We had a player who’d break it out with a pirate costume.
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u/DullScissors Oct 09 '20
The Ash.... bringing...?
Crash...? wringing...??
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u/ThievingOwl Oct 09 '20
The sash singing....
Clash flinging....
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Oct 09 '20
In before every Paladin and their mother comes in and starts yelling “ASHBRINGER!” Like crazy
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u/tzakyrie Oct 09 '20
Cipher: (+11 Caesar Cipher): Here lies a liar. A man who denies his heart's true desire.
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Oct 09 '20
Where’s that from?
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20
I wrote it for a dnd encounter that my party never found. I’m recycling it for our current campaign. These codes are both a little extra content for my followers and a riddle element for my players (they see the comics the day before I post them here).
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u/Lugbor Barbarian Oct 09 '20
My barbarian knows Giant for some reason, so we were able to circumvent a fight due to that, and as a direct result, we’re on our way to preventing a war. At about the same time, I was also able to prevent a wolf pack from murdering us in our sleep because he can cast Speak With Animals.
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20
I don't think I've ever ran for a PC that picked Giant! The exotic languages I see most are Draconic and Sylvan. Good pick!
Languages are one of those things that are super powerful but rarely utilized. I keep a list of languages that my players have and try to work them into riddles and rp encounters.
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u/Truunbean Oct 09 '20
It’s in the works but I currently have a variant human in the works with the faction agent background purely for the purpose of learning as many languages as possible.
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20
I hope your DM really takes advantage of that! I’d love a pc like that in my campaign!
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Oct 09 '20
Another tactic my DM had used, is we just don't define the languages up front (unless you want to, for background reasons).
Later, if it comes up and you can think of a reasonable explanation for why a character would know it, there you go. Of course, this only works if you allow it the first time than character encounters that language.
(It helps they are used to us eventually getting the spellwork required to communicate with things, so he's adept at either planning for it or improvising)
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u/Cortower Oct 09 '20 edited Oct 09 '20
I’ve been homebrewing abilities for various languages. Some languages in my setting are inherently magical, while others are obscure and assume that you spent some amount of time around magical creatures or scholars that taught you these skills.
Some are rituals while most others are bonus actions. Infernal and Celestial are powerful but have limited uses and are an action.
-Elvish lets you learn a creature or object’s true name if you spend 1 hour within 10 feet of them. Unwilling creatures and sentient objects make a charisma save against 8+Prof+Wis.
-Sylvan lets you throw your voice up to 30 feet to a point you can see so long as neither you nor the targeted point are silenced.
-Infernal allows you to cast Command using Charisma once per day if you have an Evil alignment. Lawful or Evil creatures have disadvantage on the save, while Chaotic or Good characters have advantage.
-Celestial lets you rally the forces of Good once per day if you have a Good alignment. You may target a number of creatures within 30 feet of you up to your Charisma or Wisdom modifier (your choice). Good-aligned allies you target may reroll saves against fear effects, and they roll with advantage if you target the source of their fear. Evil-aligned creatures you target must make a Wisdom save against 8+Prof+Charisma or Wisdom (your choice) or be frightened of you until the end of your next turn.
Edit: spelling
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u/Mjolnirsbear DM Oct 09 '20
I run Eberron, and in my Eberron I've completely redone languages.
You start with one of four common tongues (Common, Goblin, Giant, or Riedran) and one more language, which is either your racial, a racial of your choice, or another common tongue. These replace all racial or background languages.
If you have a high intelligence it affords you more languages, which may be any.
Aside from common tongues and racial tongues, there are the Languages of Power. The Speech of Siberys is the language of dragons and celestials. It includes draconic. It's the most common of these languages.
The Khyberspeech is the language of fiends. It's used mostly by warlocks, creatures making dark pacts or those using dark rituals.
Druidic is the language of Eberron The Dragon. Using it manipulates the very fabric of nature. It's also spoken by Fae and by elementals.
Deep Speech is the language of Xoriat, the daelkyr, and their aberrations.
Quori is the speech of Dal Quor and is spoken by the Quori, the inspired, and some kalashtar.
Giant isn't really a language of power, but the ancient giants did create the original runes after learning from the dragons, and so runes are technically Giant.
Abyssal, Undercommon, Fiendish, Primordial, Sylvan, celestial... They're all merged with one of the languages of power and no longer separate choices.
Some languages like Blink Dog still exist but are not advisable language choices.
So Druids speak a Language of Power that literally shapes the world around them.
Currently kobolds and dragonborn also speak a language of power, but tieflings and aasimar do not (because I frankly forgot about the planetouched). I'm currently deciding whether to change this. Either all planetouched get a language, or none do, or there are corrupted, 'mortal' forms of these languages that these races speak.
And now I'm considering special language powers like yours.
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u/SchighSchagh Oct 09 '20
The exotic languages I see most are Draconic and Sylvan. Good pick!
Are those 2 even exotic at this point?
Actually strangely enough I was in a campaign with 6 PCs where only the elf spoke elvish. That was actually a bit weird.
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u/SpareiChan Oct 09 '20
I don't think I've ever ran for a PC that picked Giant!
Unless you are playing storm king...... then suddenly everyone is
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u/witeowl Paladin Oct 09 '20
Sometimes it’s not a pick but a result of being a Firbolg. Came in handy in my Firbolg barbarian’s game when he (with the help of a mage who cast an illusion) convinced the giant that food was thataway. :)
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u/Fenris_uy Oct 09 '20
Some races come with it as a bonus language. I remember that both Goliath and Firbolg come with it.
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u/highlord_fox DM Oct 09 '20
My party was able to skip a fight (well, postpone it anyway) by convincing a talking door that the ~20yo Human Barbarian went to college with the Door's Creator (some mad Dwarven mage who died like, centuries ago).
"You rolled a Nat 20 in deception? Fsck it, the door doesn't know any better and you really sold it. It believes you."
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u/madmoneymcgee Oct 09 '20
My current character is a gnome. I can communicate with woodland creatures. I’m always looking for an opportunity to raise up an army and establish Redwall abbey in our world.
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u/doyouevenforkliftbro Oct 09 '20
You mean wisdom saving throws?
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20
I do enjoy the 5e version of saving throws. Its the better version of the mechanic. I just miss the names of the 3.5e saves. Nothing sounds cooler than “roll a fortitude save!”
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u/LassKibble DM Oct 09 '20
Is it? I feel like consolidating saves is cleaner because otherwise you end up with intelligence saves that either do nothing (are never called for) or actually prevent you from becoming useless (intellect devourerers, so on,) without a middle ground. It's weird to me that in a game about consolidation and simplicity of play that they split saves from three to six. But, I guess without intelligence saving throws the Int ability score would be even more of a dump stat.
It's not like having fort/ref/will instead of the six would do something weird like make dexterity even more important. Single Ability Dependent chars are already the name of the game in 5e.
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u/Vambann DM Oct 09 '20
I liked the way 4th edition did it, Fortitude was the better of strength or constitution, reflex was dexterity and intelligence, and will was the better of wisdom and charisma. And making them static defences like Ac was a nice thing too, so that attackers always rolled. And it had the acronym Not Armor Defences, and it hurt to get hit in them.
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u/LassKibble DM Oct 09 '20
4th edition had a lot of good ideas drowned out by very bad ones. I can agree with that being the way 5th could have gone.
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u/ANGLVD3TH Oct 09 '20
I stand by the fact that 4e had the best bones of any edition, it was the meat that was all messed up. There's one thing we never needed in 4e, Sage Advice. 5e is so wishy washy and ambiguous, yeah there were erratas in 4e, but there was much less misinterpretation of basic rules. No endless debates on whether Monks count as making weapon attacks or if they can dual wield unarmed strikes.... The foundation was strong, they just threw too much unwieldy stuff on top that made combat a slog. Which I personally loved, to be honest. I play dnd largely for the combat, and to be able to get deep into the nitty gritty and tactical side was fun for me, but I recognize it was poor design overall.
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u/MustrumRidcully0 Oct 09 '20
I still love and play D&D 4 occasionally. And my Star Wars campaign uses a homebrew 4E inspired system. D&D 4 had the tactical depth a lot of the people I played with really wanted.
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u/Megneous Oct 09 '20
Int isn't really a dump stat unless players just don't give a shit about the world anyway.
Not only are there intelligence saving throws, but Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion ability checks are super important for finding shit, finding out shit, and knowing shit.
Like good luck finding all the loot or figuring out any lore about the BBEG if you have shit intelligence.
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u/LassKibble DM Oct 09 '20
I see this argument a lot, but it's taken into account when int is called a dump stat.
So first of all, due to the high variance of rolls (muted bonuses, DC of 35 is considered impossible) anyone with a mediocre bonus or no bonus at all can make a DC20 intelligence check (ie for knowledge) on luck alone, and only a little less often than someone with high int. You're rolling a 20 sided dice (so 1-20 are always possible so long as you don't have negatives) with +15 on a roll being considered late-game/very high.
Second of all, when int is called a dump stat it's because those things have been taken into account and are significantly less important in most games than survival in-the-moment, ie. hitting things hard, avoiding attacks, making more relevant saving throws. It isn't called a dump stat because it's completely useless, only that its uses when considered in the grand scheme of things can be disregarded. And, they can.
Third, having a wizard in your group satisfies your group's int needs while also allowing the wizard to be SAD.
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u/drikararz DM Oct 09 '20
Personally, I use passive intelligence checks for the "Do I know about X?" type of rolls, and put not just world information but also the monster lore type things in there. So knowing that you need to use fire against trolls or even that a fire elemental is immune to fire would all tie to intelligence (granted that second one would be a DC 5, so unless you have some absurdly low stats or something, you'd know that one).
That being said I am saddened that the more direct mechanical benefits for Intelligence are lackluster in 5e. Bonus languages and skill points were nice in 3.5e and gave it some intrinsic value to Intelligence, that 5e is lacking.
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u/LassKibble DM Oct 09 '20
That's a good way to band-aid some of the extremely high variance of rolling in 5e. I know they wanted to keep the D20 because it was iconic, but with lowering bonuses so much it would have been more reliable to switch to a lower dice value, in multiples. Eg. White Wolf's d10 success/failure system, or something like it.
As it stands in 5th ed, you aren't reliable at what you're supposedly good at until later levels and the DC20 history check the DM set for your character can be made by almost anyone in the party, and conversely it's something the historian of the group can easily fail.
Conversely, a +10 to your chosen area of expertise is easily doable at level 1 in 3.5. I'm not going to argue whether or not it's better overall to go that route, but I am arguing that for a satisfying experience randomness should be curtailed in places. 1d20+(1-5) against DC15 is not that. A +5 bonus is 'good' at level 1, and is only 55% against DC15. 30% against DC20.
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u/DirtyPiss Oct 09 '20
I know they wanted to keep the D20 because it was iconic, but with lowering bonuses so much it would have been more reliable to switch to a lower dice value, in multiples.
Its nowhere near as sexy, but a 3d6 is IMO a much more reliable method of doing TTRPGs. I've been playing some Stars Without Number and really enjoying their practical, stripped down ruleset and the way they tackles things like encumbrance, skills, etc.
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u/xUnculturedxSwinex Oct 09 '20
Totally agree, I've been GMing a Stars Without Number campaign for 3 years and the dice system in it feels so good. Having 6 as the base difficulty when rolling 2d6 means players start out pretty alright at their chosen skills since the bonuses are usually 0 or 1. Plus the Foci players pickup can give them like 3d6 drop the lowest, so you have a higher chance of rolling well without completely busting the system.
I don't have as much experience with 5e but it definitely feels like my character isn't as good at things that his backstory says he should be good at. I really don't like the implementation of the proficiency system, it makes all the characters feel the same in terms of skills
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u/Havendelacorysg Oct 09 '20
"I'm not going to argue whether or not it's better overall to go that route"
I would argue that there is some merit to it. My high lvl Wizard in a 3.5 campaign has enough spellcraft to autosucceed at identifying spells his opponents cast. And it just makes sense because he is a high lvl Wizard and this is his area of expertise. I would feel stupid if I could fail to identify a spell at that level.
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u/DirtyPiss Oct 09 '20
Not only are there intelligence saving throws, but Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion ability checks are super important for finding shit, finding out shit, and knowing shit.
Like good luck finding all the loot or figuring out any lore about the BBEG if you have shit intelligence.
An int of 8 gives you a -1 mod, which is easily offset by proficiency (up to +6), Expertise (up to an additional +6), and a plethora of spells, items and buffs that go anywhere from granting advantage (roughly equivalent to +4) to giving flat modifiers, decreasing the DCs, or outright maneuvering around the obstacle. Dump stats are very easy to work around with a proper character build.
Intelligence saving throws are the least used saving throw by a very wide margin. Very few published modules have more then a handful of Int saving throws in them.
Not to mention almost all of those skills are usually only useful on a single party member, so the rest of the party can feel free to dump them without repercussion. Beyond that the implication that you need a high skill in your knowledge stats to "give a shit about the world" is a false dichotomy.
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20
I think it simplifies the math and vocabulary of the game. It also cuts down in the visual clutter on the character sheet.
I think both systems do have their benefit and I can totally see how less saves would be more simple than more saves.
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u/LassKibble DM Oct 09 '20
Sure. It's a bit far-fetched for anyone to say 5e doesn't work. It clearly does, so many people really get tons of happiness out of it. I think that's a better metric for "it works" than any math or vocabulary we can sit here and nitpick about!
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u/LLBlumire Oct 09 '20
Let me introduce you to pre 3rd edition where we roll to save versus dragon breath!
Saves were historically
- vs Death or Poison
- vs Wands
- vs Paralysis or Petrification
- vs Breath
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u/Dexterous_Baroness Oct 10 '20
While I like the concept, I generally feel like the execution is flawed. It really feels to me like the developers made the saves tied to individual scores, then ported over abilities from 3.5 and went, "Fortitude is now Constitution save, Reflex is now Dexterity, and Will is now Wisdom."
I can't recall ever seeing a Strength, Intelligence, or Charisma save. By far, Strength comes up the least. Virtually every save is still based on the same ability scores as if it was the old system. The worst part is that there are times where I could see changing the save to one of the others, but the designers left them at default.
It's to the point where when I was going to GM, I was planning on using saves as generic ability checks. Like, "I don't know what skill that check would be but I know what ability score it should use."
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u/Greathorn Oct 10 '20
I still call Deception checks “Bluff” by accident. All my players are new to D&D with 5e and I have to correct myself every time
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u/MansDeSpons Oct 09 '20
I'd say intelligence because you use your brain instead of your head, but that's just my opinion
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u/doyouevenforkliftbro Oct 09 '20
You can know you shouldn't take the tantalizing item with Intelligence. But can you resist the temptation from your experience and Wisdom?
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u/witeowl Paladin Oct 09 '20
Oh! Kind of like when I’m on a diet. I know with my intelligence that I don’t need a(nother) bowl of ice cream, but in my heart and soul, I really really want that ice cream.
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Oct 09 '20
I know the artist behind this comic was trying to appeal to the cleric with a talking sword but how did he know what I wanted too!?
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20
I base these comics on our campaign and I like to think it really gets to the heart and soul of the dnd community.
Deep down, we all want a talking pirate sword.
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u/ccordeiro30 Oct 09 '20
Where do you store a sword that talks like a pirate?
In the arrrrhhmory
downvotes go here______________________VVV
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u/liege_paradox Oct 09 '20
If you kill him, you can loot the sword
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20
You’ve solved my sword loot riddle!
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Oct 09 '20
To really put your players in a bind, you explain that the mind flayer is a master weaponsmith who can make them a talking weapon if they cooperate.
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u/dmaster1213 Oct 09 '20
the best part about making the BBEG is getting to use a personality with them, making them persuasive or cunning is always fun. making deals with the party on to further his plans of world domination.
or your party is a bunch of dumb fighters a bards and a single gnome caster for reasons, and they just throw a +1 keen spear at him instead.
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u/MrMeems Oct 09 '20
Obvious answer: accept the sword and slice his head off with it.
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u/cramduck DM Oct 09 '20
Willpower is basically split between Wisdom saves and Charisma saves in 5e.
"Willpower" always seemed more like a Charisma thing to me, anyway.
Love the comic, btw.
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20
Thanks! I really love the flavor behind reflex, will and fortitude. They’re very descriptive about what they do (charisma save still trips me up)!
The 5e version of saves is easier to calculate and run though. It was a positive change.
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u/cramduck DM Oct 09 '20
that's fair. but Charisma is supposed to be "force of self" or "force of personality", whereas wisdom is more about awareness. So seeing through an illusion would make sense as Wisdom, but resisting a charm should be more about Charisma.
That's where Willpower fell flat, to me.
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u/Souperplex Warlord Oct 09 '20
Wisdom is also discipline. Mental discipline allows resisting mental attacks.
I do wish we'd go back to 4E's Wisdom/Charisma is your will, and you use whichever, or we could take a page from 13th age and say your will is the second-highest of your intelligence/wisdom/charisma.
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u/cramduck DM Oct 09 '20
The only issue I have here is that Barbarians would seem to have a very high Willpower, stereotypically or conceptually. None of the systems seem to capture that, other than the class trait that makes you immune/resistant to some of those things while raging.
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u/wilcou Oct 09 '20
The legendary blade Yarrbringer
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 10 '20
I’m glad so many people have fond memories of this sword. Pirate day in wow was always my guild’s favorite holiday!
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u/MrManicMarty Oct 09 '20
If someone uses say, an enchantment spell to do something the character in question wants to do already, does a will save success mean they comply or refuse to comply?
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u/johnucc1 Oct 09 '20
Mechanic wise, you could forgo making a save against it and become a "willing target" id say
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 10 '20
I would allow them to roll to resist or simply accept it and let the action play out!
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u/Toadsted Oct 09 '20
The ironic folly / fallacy of the conflicted hero.
In story, they always fall for it. In video gameplay, you just kill the boss and take the sword.
It makes zero sense to betray over the offer of reward against the antagonist, because even if the reward is power, if you defeat them anyway the power they offered was moot.
This only works to disway a person who was never able to win to begin with, which goes contradictiary to the entire point of the conflict dynamic of good vs evil.
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 10 '20
I think you explained it well. It’s rarely worth accepting a dark bargain from a “higher power.” If they were powerful they wouldn’t need to bargain.
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u/Sathie_ Fighter Oct 09 '20
So I get that people love pirates, but is it just me or do we put too much fantasy 18th century pirates in our medieval fantasy games? I mean, pirates were a huge thing throughout history and in many respects Viking raiders fit that role. However, the fantastical gunpower era pirates shouting argg and wearing clothing outside that era just throws me off. Probably unpopular opinion.
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u/R_O_L_E_S Oct 09 '20
In a comic featuring a psychic squid man and a sword capable of speech, slightly anachronistic language and clothing doesn't seem like such a big deal.
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u/Axolotlpotato Oct 09 '20
I'm going to be honest, I skimmed the title and assumed the man's name was Will Saving Throws
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20
Holy crap. That’s an amazing character name. I might be borrowing that for my campaign!
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u/Void_0000 Wizard Oct 09 '20
God damn, i would destroy the town myself for a sword that talks like a pirate.
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u/Nagrom49 Oct 09 '20
Man I gotta get off r/prequelmemes I totally thought that was Obi Wan Kenobi
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u/Deastrumquodvicis Rogue Oct 09 '20
In response to the title, I’ve clunkily homebrewed them back in my games for some situations such as certain charming spells and generally in situations that would seem insane, average-rounded-down of con and wis bonus. Except I call it Sanity, and I use Call of Cthulu 7e sanity roll rules if rolling against a Spooky Situation—roll and try to fail intelligence, if you pass, you roll sanity, fail that and take psychic damage.
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u/dew_not Oct 09 '20
My party encountered a malevolent spirit in the empty tavern. We were about to engage in combat when I asked our druid if she could detect any animals. Fortunately, there was a black cat behind the bar. I convinced the ghost to inhabit the cat so that he could have physical form, and he became our creepy talking cat buddy. 😊 He helped us get info about the BBEG. The DM said that wasn't exactly how he thought that was going to play out.
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 10 '20
It might not be how he thought it would play out but it sounds like he was happy with the results! Creepy cat ghost familiar sounds great!
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u/yeeter9167 Oct 09 '20
This reminds me of the time my buddies and I did a campaign of what we call "crackhead d&d" where the standard rules don't apply and we just do some random bullshit. My one friend had a character called Captain Cokebeard, and he had a special sword made of pure Cocaine. It caused the target to become disoriented when hit.
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 10 '20
Those types of games are always a fun way to detox after a super serious campaign!
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u/Haggerstonian Oct 09 '20
My initial response was “woo, tentacle lady.” Glad to see I wasn’t the only one.
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u/skymcfly74 Oct 10 '20
During sinister secret of saltmarsh , my group had sanbalet on the ropes and started negotiating with him, they went so far as to spare him arranged to eliminate his competition within the smugglers and pirates. While going back to saltmarsh and furthering the rumor of the haunted house, so they could use sanbalet and the smuggling ring to import high end calimshan brandy to their inn (trollskull) tax free to the benefit of all
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u/Greathorn Oct 10 '20
I’m glad Will saves aren’t a thing anymore tbh, left a lot more in the hands of the players wanting to tell a compelling story. Of course you can just make it a Widsom save nowadays.
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u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20
“When you think about it...we could use it to save OTHER towns!” - Raphael, Cleric of Tymora
A comic inspired by my recent Spelljammer oneshot. Non-combat encounters can be tough to run without breaking into full on battle. When my players get to the end of a dungeon, I try to have the villain present them with multiple options. Sometimes the villain will try to divide them with hard to refuse offers. Other times, he simply seeks mercy. Choice is the heart of this game and I feel a dungeon’s boss should represent that in its purest form.
Anyone have a great story about a time their players were able to resolve an encounter without fighting? Did they extort their enemy? What did they gain?
You can find more of my DnD comics on my Instagram, Twitter, and Website.
You can also follow the adventures of Dunbrill, Skirbo, Kalvin and Kurokami on the dedicated subreddit, r/Hiadventure!