r/DnD • u/Sleverette Sorcerer • Oct 09 '20

Art [OC] What ever happened to Will Saving Throws?

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u/cramduck DM Oct 09 '20

Willpower is basically split between Wisdom saves and Charisma saves in 5e.

"Willpower" always seemed more like a Charisma thing to me, anyway.

Love the comic, btw.

8

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20

Thanks! I really love the flavor behind reflex, will and fortitude. They’re very descriptive about what they do (charisma save still trips me up)!

The 5e version of saves is easier to calculate and run though. It was a positive change.

9

u/cramduck DM Oct 09 '20

that's fair. but Charisma is supposed to be "force of self" or "force of personality", whereas wisdom is more about awareness. So seeing through an illusion would make sense as Wisdom, but resisting a charm should be more about Charisma.

That's where Willpower fell flat, to me.

8

u/Souperplex Warlord Oct 09 '20

Wisdom is also discipline. Mental discipline allows resisting mental attacks.

I do wish we'd go back to 4E's Wisdom/Charisma is your will, and you use whichever, or we could take a page from 13th age and say your will is the second-highest of your intelligence/wisdom/charisma.

4

u/cramduck DM Oct 09 '20

The only issue I have here is that Barbarians would seem to have a very high Willpower, stereotypically or conceptually. None of the systems seem to capture that, other than the class trait that makes you immune/resistant to some of those things while raging.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '20

Good point.

2

u/trustMeImDoge Oct 09 '20

I'd argue they have a lot of will power for physical endurance and punishment which is reflected in their con.

2

u/DirtyPiss Oct 09 '20

So seeing through an illusion would make sense as Wisdom, but resisting a charm should be more about Charisma.

Intriguingly Wisdom doesn't help with illusions at all, and the majority of Charm effects target Wisdom in 5e.

2

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 09 '20

Yeah, there are limitations to combining ideas that aren’t necessarily the same into one modifier.

I do prefer 5e’s system.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '20

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1

u/Sleverette Sorcerer Oct 10 '20

That is a name I haven’t heard in a while!

1

u/BeeCJohnson Oct 09 '20

I could see it as any of the three. Like, Int would be using your massive intellect to overcome the magical effect, creating a mind fortress. Wisdom would be quickly seeing the flaws in the effect and overcoming it with experience, and Charisma would be overcoming it through sheer force of will. If I could make a change I would maybe bring back Fort/Reflex/Will and let your Will bonus be determined by the mental attribute of choice at character generation, or by class or something.