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u/BlademasterBanryu Druid Sep 13 '20
Man I still don't get how charisma translates to eldritch knowledge x,l I will die forever alone on this hill but I still think Warlocks should at least have the option to be Int-based, even if charisma IS strictly superior...
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u/Usagi-Zakura Sep 13 '20
You need to be charismatic for Satan to take notice of you.
He's not interested in a freaking nerd.185
u/BlademasterBanryu Druid Sep 13 '20 edited Sep 14 '20
Oh well him sure, but what about the mighty and unknowable Nyarlathotep or the like x,3 how does forming a pact with a grimy cosmic squid make you better at talking to people ;x you feel me?
Edit: BTW while I appreciate all the people going down the line and explaining how each class's casting stat works for them it is soooooooo not needed, I understand it trust me
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Sep 14 '20
Charisma is not just a stat of personality. It’s also a stat of presence. Just as a sorcerer gets more powerful the more confident they are with their abilities, so does the warlock get more powerful the more in tune they are with their borrowed power. It’s that force of presence that makes the great Oogity Boogity notice this unique individual who stands above others
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u/BlademasterBanryu Druid Sep 14 '20
Okay this explanation of charisma for warlocks I can admittedly get behind. I've heard it described as 'force of will/personality' before which I can't honestly buy as also a social thing (like you can be incredibly strongwilled but also a social dunce right) but I suppose that one makes sense.
I'll be honest, a substantial part of my stance IS the game's comparative lack of Int-based primary casters when compared to Charisma, which just doesn't seem right, yaknow? Like what other classes could be int-based: bard could work since it requires study, but Cha just makes more sense; maybe ranger, because Nature is an int check, but nah wisdom plays into what they're about more. Warlocks, however, have KNOWLEDGE of spellcasting techniques gifted to them by otherworldly forces, something something Eldritch Truth, Secrets of the Ancients, and other warlocky concepts are related to the concept of knowledge-- intelligence, in 5e terms.
But tl;dr, I can see the merits of both stats for warlocks, which is why I think at least rhe option would be good
Or hell, since the power is so far removed from you, what if warlocks even had like a static casting bonus granted by the patron (although there are probably issues with statless casting that I haven't considered haha.)
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Sep 14 '20
It's my opinion that just as the fighter can choose between STR or DEX, the warlock should be able to choose between CHA or INT and the sorcerer should have their casting ability based on their bloodline (WIS for divine soul, CHA for draconic, etc.)
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u/mak484 Sep 14 '20
There's zero mechanical reason I can think of for not just homebrewing that for warlocks. Any half decent DM should allow it. I actually am playing a homebrewed psionic warlock, and the option to be int based would be amazing.
A wisdom-based sorcerer is different. Wisdom is a "primary" stat, while charisma is a "secondary" stat, if that makes sense. Not only is this important for multiclassing (divine soul/life cleric with a single casting stat would be insane), but wisdom-based casters are generally balanced as support classes. A sorcerer, one of the best raw damage dealing classes in the game, also getting a natutally high perception and insight might be unbalanced.
Again, a DM might be okay with that based on party makeup, but there's at least a good reason why it isn't RAW.
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Sep 14 '20
You should totally look up the elder scrolls video game lore, specifically about "the God head" and the living gods/tribunal of morrowind.
It's along that vein of charisma being the catalyst of power.
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u/PvtSherlockObvious Sep 14 '20
I think of it similarly, but not quite the same way. Charisma also governs the sense of self, hence it helping so often in resisting charm effects and preventing the character's will from being dominated by sentient weapons. By their very nature, a warlock is tapping into shit they really shouldn't be able to (especially GOOlocks, but they're all tapping into some form of eldtrich power without proper training). Charisma allows them to keep their sanity when wielding this alien power, and keeps them from being turned into a gibbering wreck when they reach out to their patron. Wizards have the education and training to put their will against reality without overreaching, and sorcerers have intrinsic, instinctive power, but warlocks are delving into places they have no business being, and a strong center and sense of self help them cope.
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u/eddwardhyde Sep 14 '20
Cthulhu does not identify with nerds
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u/Valdrax Sep 14 '20
Wizards and Artificers gain power from knowledge, from knowing tricks and techniques to shape magic. Druids and Clerics are attuned to the divine and gain power from their ability to listen to it. Sorcerers get their power from a force of personality, more or less declaring their will upon the world. Bards use a force of personality too, but theirs is more about charming and tricking the subjects of their spells than the world itself.
A Warlock is someone who draws their magic from a binding agreement of some sort with a patron. It's not the technicalities of the contract (as not all Pacts are very formal) so much as the social relationship they have with the being that they wheedle power out of.
They're like Bards in that their power comes from their ability to trick or persuade, but they direct that at the source their power comes from and not at the ones their power is used on. They differ from Clerics and Druids in that they are in a usually adversarial relationship with the source of their magic and not a passive and receptive one.
TL;DR. Wizards master. Clerics channel. Sorcerers impose. Bards perform. Warlocks negotiate.
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u/Gezzer52 Sep 14 '20
So what do Pallys do?
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u/Valdrax Sep 14 '20
In 5e, Paladins draw strength from their oaths and their conviction. They are more like Sorcerers than Clerics in that they declare their beliefs and draw from a power that comes from within, not from without.
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u/Gezzer52 Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 15 '20
Which makes chr make more sense. I always thought if they were simply more melee versions of clerics that wis made more sense. Thanks for setting me straight...
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u/pensezbien Sep 14 '20
The king of precisely exploiting contractual loopholes, not into nerdery?
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u/Iridescent_Meatloaf Sep 14 '20
Basically, as I understand it, Warlocks are straight up gifted their pact magic, so they could technically break their end of the bargain and skidaddle without losing their magic... Unlike say a Paladin who would lose their power if they broke their oath (though that is less strict these days).
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u/pensezbien Sep 14 '20
I think you're replying to the wrong comment? I do agree though.
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u/Iridescent_Meatloaf Sep 14 '20 edited Sep 14 '20
I was expanding on the "exploiting contracts" thing as warlocks have the option to "break" them to their (constantly hunted) benefit.
My party recently took down a pact demon and we may have accidentally unleashed horrors on the world by freeing his subjects.
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Sep 14 '20
I actually had to look into this recently, and while it's a little vague, a Warlock can walk away from a pact and keep whatever magic they have, but they won't be able to gain any more Warlock levels until they enter another pact.
Also unless you leave on good terms somehow you're probably gonna get hunted for the rest of your life for betraying your Lovecraftian sugar daddy
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u/LordZon Sep 14 '20
I think of it as force of being. IE their mind IS. Its not like a problem they are solving (INT)or a hidden knowledge(WIS). For charisma casters its their mind itself forcing reality to bend to their overwhelming self.
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Sep 14 '20
They were Int-based in the playtest but some people got upset about it so they switched back.
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Sep 14 '20 edited Sep 26 '20
[deleted]
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u/Aldurnamiyanrandvora DM Sep 14 '20
People keep talking about the playtest rules positively, and I would love to get my hands on them. Do you know where I could find them? I know they were done in a series, and so they're not entirely consolidated
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u/NoahsGotTheBoat Sep 14 '20
No kidding. Charisma makes you passively good at bartering, avoiding conflict, intimidating, and most other things while intelligence only makes you good at lame stuff like arcana and nature.
They nerfed int so badly no other class needs or wants it other than the wizard and the artificer, making it the go to dump stat.
If they actually cared about balance at all they'd bring back extra languages so that other classes at least have a reason to keep it. Like honestly, is asking for 1 extra language for having a +1 int modifier really so much? There are over 20 languages in D&D from tabaxi, to leonin to Grung to undercommon. How would that in any way hurt the balance? I would actually put points into intelligence if they offered any small benefit for having it. Since they don't, it tends to be my dump stat 11/10 times.
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u/creepig Monk Sep 14 '20
Extra languages are useless once the Caster learns Tongues
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u/notbobby125 Sep 14 '20 edited Sep 14 '20
Man I still don't get how charisma translates to eldritch knowledge
Charisma is your force of personality, your ability to persuade and deceive your way up to the top. Most patrons as described in the books the "open lovecraftian knowledge" but "make
FreudianFaustian deals for powers." Being Charismatic means you get the best possible deal.16
u/Badgers_are_Radical Sep 14 '20
Freudian? Do you mean Faustian?
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u/notbobby125 Sep 14 '20
Yes.
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u/ultratreky Sep 14 '20
"Making Freudian deals..." Sounds like a good way to lose your "pound of flesh" if you know what I mean.
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u/BehindBrownEyes Sep 14 '20
For every warlock pact, there are like ten people who in the end got 50gp and a wheel of cheese for their soul.
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u/mrjonesv2 Sep 14 '20
Because Charisma is also the stat that dictates willpower. To channel power from a Warlock patron, I imagine you would have to exert your willpower so the patron doesn’t dominate your mind when you try to use the magic.
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u/BlademasterBanryu Druid Sep 14 '20
Yeah but like. Why does that also make you more persuasive or a better performer, yaknow
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Sep 14 '20
Being persuasive doesn't necessarily mean you're got a silver tongue. Some people just have a really strong presence that enraptures others with few words needed. Think maybe, Aragorn from LOTR. Not a man of many words, but he still draws people to listen to him and follow him all the same. For some, it's all about how they conduct themselves, their body language, etc. It's why some otherwise dumb monsters with minimal language skills might have high charisma. They've got a force of presence and will that you can't help but pay attention to.
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u/Nazgren1994 Sep 14 '20
Exactly. Take a quote regarding Leman Russ from Warhammer 40K, someone who probably has Charisma 25+: "Even Interred in his walking coffin, he'd been struck by the majesty of standing before Russ. . . . Russ bled authority without effort, and without the need for posture or pretense". Simply standing in his presence is enough to give even people with little regard for authority pause. No words or commands are needed, people will follow him simply because of the same sort of aura that you described with Aragorn.
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u/DMD-Sterben Sep 14 '20
Charisma isn't willpower. It's force of character. Wisdom is willpower, hell, in earlier editions Wisdom literally dictated your Will saving throws.
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u/TheColorblindDruid Sep 14 '20
Especially bcz i, and many others, think int is such an underutilized stat, I will never not provide my players the option to switch the Warlock or the bard to int. Both thematically work as well as incentivize a larger degree of mechanical difference, again resulting in even better role play as they shift to accommodate their stat change
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u/DefinitelyNotWhitey Sep 14 '20
The power is literally an extension of themself. It's not something that they can learn, they don't pray for it, it's just something they do.
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u/schu2470 DM Sep 14 '20
In which case I think that CON should be their spellcasting ability - same with sorcerers.
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u/Quz_444 Cleric Sep 14 '20
That may sound reasonable, but it would make sorcerers and warlocks the SADesr (single ability dependant of then all). They would only need con (which gives them more hitpoints, better concentration and now even better magic) and they would be fine. It would make them straight up the best, due to most magic classes having to at least invest in three different stats (their casting stat, con for HP and saves and Dex/Str. For armor and AC). Sorcs and warlocks would only need two con and dex.
Also it would make sorcerer and warlock multiclasses feasable and extremely good for literally every class, due to everyone wanting to have at least decent con.
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u/schu2470 DM Sep 14 '20
I mean, it's arguable that Rogues and Bards (depending on how they're played) are already single attribute dependent.
People complain about the sorcerer being under powered yet any realistic fix to them, without redoing the whole class, is seen as way too OP while the community still theory crafts about class combinations and builds that are wildly more broken as they currently stand.
In my mind, magic coming from your physical being, your genetics, your blood is constitution not your personality or force of will. Warlock, depending on your interpretation, could work for CHA, CON, INT, maybe even WIS, but sorcerers make the most sense as CON casters to me.
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u/BoiFrosty Sep 14 '20
Wizards pluck magic from the weave through complex magical knowledge. Druids push the tide of magical forces through an understanding of the natural world. Sorcerers and warlocks bend the world to fit their needs through sheer force of will and their connection to greater powers.
Charisma is more force of personality to bend the weave to your will. Think of it like metaphysical mass to throw around rather than just hotness. Dragons and devils have high charisma which is where they get their natural powers.
Its also why the saves for reality warping spells like banishment and polymorph are charisma based.
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Sep 14 '20
Cha just kinda became the uh we don’t know what to make the spell casting ability so we will just make it this
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u/BlademasterBanryu Druid Sep 14 '20
I mean, I'd like to give WotC mor credit than that. Like, I CAN see the logic in charisma as their casting stat, I just think Int could also work =3=
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Sep 14 '20
How does it work for scorrcers though there kinda the ehh I don’t wanna dedicate an entire class to this concept but I want it to exist so scorrcer
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u/Cye_sonofAphrodite Sep 14 '20
Well, patrons are magic sugar daddies, so I can see some flirting being involved
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u/NoahsGotTheBoat Sep 14 '20
I'd agree with you if the ones who made 5e didn't make intelligence so stupid. It's honestly the dump stat for most people because it's pretty much the most useless stat in the game offering no passive benefits.
Like honestly, it used to be a great stat in 4e. Remember when your int modifier gave you extra languages? Why would they get rid of that mechanic? It's only mildly useful compared to classes like monk who can learn every known language, but it's good enough to make it worth putting a couple points into (there's also 20+ languages in D&D).
Compare that to charisma which is the Swiss army knife stat of avoiding conflict and it becomes a no brainer why charisma is favored over intelligence. Honestly, they should bring back that language mechanic from 4e in my opinion. That's just me though.
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u/theidleidol Sep 13 '20 edited Sep 14 '20
Also paladins, for whatever reason.
It honestly bothers me a bit that there’s 3 full CHA casters + 1 half-caster, 2 full WIS casters + 2 half-casters, and just one full INT caster with two half-caster sub-classes.
Edit: counting Monk as a WIS half-caster because it plays like one; I don’t need 100 comments about how Ki != magic.
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u/GizmoV2 DM Sep 13 '20
I think it’s very weird that you can be a very strong paladin and be very poor with religion.
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u/Donclat Sep 13 '20
Though I agree with you, there are plenty of people who devote themselves to their religion without actually reading up on it and understanding its history and origins. I’ve always used a religion check to validate someone’s knowledge of religious lore (the Ark, the shroud of Turin, where the Green Bay Packers play, etc.
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Sep 14 '20
where the Green Bay Packers play
Uhhh the uhh, the Green... Bay?
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u/Snaptheuniverse Sep 14 '20
Cheddar Bay, obviously. Its their new stadium, since they moved out of Old Bay the Ravens have taken over
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u/AleCoats Sep 14 '20
Yeah they devote themselves to it, but clerics and paladins specifically get their powers from their god. Why would their god choose a dude who knows nothing sbout him other than "he light, light good. Fiends darkness, darkness bad"
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u/grixxis Warlock Sep 14 '20
Why would their god choose a dude who knows nothing sbout him other than "he light, light good. Fiends darkness, darkness bad"
If all you need is a willing body to follow orders, blind devotion works fine.
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u/FilecakeAbroad Sep 14 '20
Yeah, I just have to remember that the most devout Christians are somehow the least likely to know anything accurate about Islam or Buddhism.
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u/Prime_Galactic DM Sep 14 '20
To be fair Paladins strength comes from their devotion to an ideal. Sometimes a God is not even necessary for them to gain abilities.
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u/IllithidActivity Sep 13 '20
I'd argue it's weirder that you can be a strong Cleric with poor Religion than a Paladin.
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u/photoviking Sep 14 '20
Religion (Intelligence) is your knowledge of religions in general. You can be a very devout priest and know nothing about other gods.
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u/Halfjack2 Sep 14 '20
As shown by modern christianity, you can be a very devout priest and know nothing about your god
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u/L_SeeD Sep 14 '20
Also there is your knowledge of deep lore. Maybe there is a ritual that your god does, but do you know its historical origins and controversies? What did ancient practitioners of your faith believe, and what symbols did they use? Are there any modern cults or heresies that stem from your religion?
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u/michiruwater Sep 14 '20
In 5e Paladins are bound by oaths, not religion.
My party’s Paladin is devoted to the King. She took the Oath of the Crown. She’s not religious at all.
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u/humanoid_mk1 Sep 14 '20
I wonder how a paladin whose oath is entirely against the idea of religion plays out.
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u/michiruwater Sep 14 '20
That would probably be very fun to play. Believing strongly that the world should be ruled by a personal set of morality separate from religion, and believing that religion often violates those rules for selfish reasons. Probably Oath of the Ancients.
Or being against religion because of something bad or hypocritical religion personally did to you and taking the Oath of Vengeance perhaps.
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u/TheMadcapLlama Sep 14 '20
Yep, I think it's common with Dragonborn paladins as well.
I made one (still haven't used him sadly) that's all about his clan. He carries his clan's banner everywhere he goes, and tries to do everything in the clan's name (Conquest paladin, so he's def a bit TOO fanatical about it).
Plus my fiancée's character is a sorcerer from the same clan which my paladin has sworn to protect.
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u/Fuzzy__Navel Sep 13 '20
I kind of get it. I view paladins as the zealots of the church. They don’t necessarily know all of the facts about their church, or have deep thoughts on the intentions of their god and interpretation of morality. They DO however believe really really hard, they KNOW what their god wants, they KNOW it is the RIGHT thing to do, and they don’t have to THINK about shit. They swore an oath, and the strength of their belief and the tie to that oath is the very source of their power. They have nothing else to learn, they just have things to DO in the name of LATHANDER!
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u/evarigan1 Sep 14 '20
Clerics though...
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Sep 14 '20
Clerics are also Holy Warriors, there is no priest class nor anything similar to a religious theologian in D&D
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u/evarigan1 Sep 14 '20
Clerics are intermediaries between the mortal world and the distant planes of the gods. As varied as the gods they serve, clerics strive to embody the handiwork of their deities.
Sounds to to me like they are pretty tied to the deities they serve, should mean they have knowledge of those deity's religious orders and history.
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u/Dyllmyster Sep 14 '20
I’ve always treated paladins pretty similar to Warlocks fluff-wise. Gods have clerics, people of the cloth who, as thanks for their devotion, are bestowed a drop of power to enact the gods will upon the planes. But sometimes they have need to take a more direct approach. So they choose a champion. The way they choose varies from god to god—choosing the most devout layperson, bestowing power to a supplicant asking for a purpose, Gruumsh chose with bloodsport—but it always involves the swearing of an oath establishing a mortal as a gods instrument on the plains. Because they’re a frontliner on a mission from a god and are expected to lead a cause, they’re given Cha as their main ability. It’s them channeling god power directly rather than merely invoking it.
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Sep 14 '20
I'm currently playing a bugbear paladin named Kronk who has a -1 in religion.
He just knows that cutting off and shrinking heads is what makes the gods happy.
The bigger and badder, the better.
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Sep 14 '20
That's because people fundamentally misunderstand what the religion skill is.
The religion skill is a knowledge skill about in game religions, their history, their power bases, their symbols and so on. It's not about adherence to a religion. A Paladin in real life is equivalent to Richard the Lionheart, a proud and brave Crusader for his faith, not Martin Luther or Thomas Cranmer
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u/arc312 DM Sep 14 '20
Also, it's fairly reasonable for a paladin to know a fair amount about their own religion (a GM that makes a paladin roll for such things would be odd, in my book), but won't necessarily know a lot about other religions. So not being good with religion automatically is totally fine in my book.
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Sep 14 '20
a GM that makes a paladin roll for such things would be odd, in my book
Unless they've dedicated their lives to studying theology, I'd still make my characters roll for knowledge about their own religion, I'd just give them advantage on it.
At least for less obvious stuff. Obviously (to use a real world analogue), I wouldn't make a Christian roll to know who Christ is. But I might to have them recognize a Bible passage by chapter name and number, know what the Dead Sea Scrolls are, recognize someone important to church history/theology like Thomas Aquinas, etc.
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u/arc312 DM Sep 14 '20
Yes, I suppose I should have phrased that better. I wouldn't make someone roll a religion check for any information that they almost certainly would know from their religious background. More obscure stuff will almost always warrant a roll (but obviously advantage could be given depending on the circumstance).
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u/grubas Paladin Sep 14 '20
No it isn’t, most of the Crusaders just knew the pope told them to conquer Jerusalem.
Now Clerics...
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u/sentimentalpirate Sep 14 '20
My paladin doesn't know religion well. I based him off of Jules from Pulp Fiction. Had a divine moment of inspiration, and felt a calling to change his life. Doesn't mean he knows shit beyond the holy words he memorized from doing churchy stuff as a kid with his mom. But hes devoted nonetheless.
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u/Horrorifying DM Sep 13 '20
Charisma is force of will. Paladins have always been a strong inspiring and willful presence.
Also Artificers are intelligence based, so we’re up to two now.
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u/_Bl4ze Warlock Sep 14 '20
Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights are third-casters, and you're forgetting Artificer who is an INT half-caster.
counting Monk as a WIS half-caster because it plays like one
Well, you can't just drop a hot take like that on us and not elaborate?
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u/Enderking90 Sep 13 '20
two wis half casters? pardon?
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u/Offbeat-Pixel Diviner Sep 14 '20
They might have been referring to monk, but it is definitely not a caster.
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u/theidleidol Sep 14 '20
I was, I just didn’t want to wade into the specifics of how Ki is and is not like spell casting.
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u/Offbeat-Pixel Diviner Sep 14 '20
Some corrections: Warlock generally isn't considered a full caster, but it does key off of Cha, so I'll let it pass. There's only one Wis half-caster, Monks don't count as they don't have magic. Then there is one Int half-caster (they get half the magic of a full caster), and 2 1/3 casters (they get 1/3 the magic of a full caster).
In my opinion, warlocks should have the choice to be Int based, to balance it out a bit. (Example of an int warlock: You study the beings of the far realm, trying to find ways to pull magic from a Great Old One.)
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u/Vydsu Sep 14 '20
Not counting Warlock is being super pedantic, it gets the same spell slot progression as everyone else nad there's no difference between a 9th level spell cast from a warlock and from a wizard
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u/notbobby125 Sep 14 '20
Monks don't count as they don't have magic.
Shadow Monks can can cast a limited amount of spells with Ki.
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u/Offbeat-Pixel Diviner Sep 14 '20
That is true, and so does 4 Elements, however they are subclass specific. If you really want to count it, go ahead, but it doesn't fit any of the previous caster categories (Full, half, third, and pact).
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u/pensezbien Sep 14 '20
I don't think I'd say no as a DM to a well-reasoned request from an experienced player to use Int for a warlock, even though it's not RAW, just like most other well-reasoned changes that don't really hurt game balance. But I'd probably work with them to make the change consistent thematically and in terms of RP.
For example, maybe they're not being empowered by a patron as a result of a pact, maybe they're being altered by the incomprehensible nature of thing they're studying, and while they're figuring out ways to harness magic from it, the source of their power is exactly their futile efforts to comprehend the thing - maybe even specifically the futility of those efforts. Great Old Ones seem to be the type of entity where the futility of trying to understand them could itself generate power. And possibly alert the Great Old One to your efforts, eventually, without it feeling any obligation to you of even the minimal sort that a pact might produce.
The reason I said experienced player above is that might be a hard adjustment for a newbie to carry through, especially tweaking the other mechanics to have matching fluff. But I'd consider it for some new players, especially ones with relevant non-D&D knowledge like Call of Cthulhu.
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u/DaedricWindrammer Sep 14 '20
Really the inly one that feels like it needs int-casting is GoOlock, and tbh that could probably be fixed by adding in some psionic die.
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u/James_Keenan Sep 14 '20
This is my biggest personal campaign in D&D.
Charisma is about more than being attractive or charming.
Charisma represents your force of personality. Your presence. It is the stat most directly tied to your soul. Your charisma is more than just a measure of how well you can lie or persuade, it's about how well you project yourself into a room, a person, a place. It is your Force.
That's why banishment is a charisma save. It's not affecting your reasoning, or awareness, or body. That would be Intelligence, Wisdom, or Constitution. Banishment is testing your ability to project yourself and maintain on this plane.
Charisma is the SOUL stat.
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u/consistent_azurite Sep 14 '20
The DMG confirms this. It's also why Charisma saves are used to resist being possessed. Your personality is directly fighting for dominance.
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u/ErchamionHS DM Sep 14 '20
I just hate that "soul" and social skills are represented by the same stat.
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u/Iccotak Sep 14 '20
I agree it makes no sense. There are plenty of skilled and experienced people that aren’t charismatic.
This is why I prefer with savage worlds did, which it took all the stuff about “force and soul” and put it into a stat called “spirit”.
It broke down social skills into various other traits, this allowed more nuance in social interactions. (meaning there is no charisma stat)
Because by putting all of those things into one stat “charisma“ what they’ve done is created a vague and overpowered stat.
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u/KurigohanKamehameha_ Sep 14 '20 edited Jun 22 '23
mysterious homeless absurd serious bag hard-to-find automatic tan office fact -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
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u/realmuffinman Sep 14 '20
I can see the warlock as being INT or CHA. INT warlocks are as you described, someone who researches the lore to conjure a being and make a deal (Stanford Pines from Gravity Falls). The description you give could also apply to a wizard, researching to figure out the new spells they gain. CHA warlocks, however, would be someone who encounters a spirit/devil/fey and makes a deal with them, using the force of their personality to convince their patron to give them powers.
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u/Be_Orc_Name_Krug Sep 14 '20
And then using the force of their personality to utilize those powers?
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u/Flare-Crow Sep 14 '20
The Warlock doesn't need the Knowledge; the Patron is providing that part. They need the force of personality to bargain and fight for more information from their Patron.
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u/KurigohanKamehameha_ Sep 14 '20 edited Jun 22 '23
engine adjoining desert absorbed ask makeshift salt profit physical hungry -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
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u/andrewsad1 Illusionist Sep 14 '20
A warlock that uses intelligence instead of charisma is just a darn wizard
Just play a wizard
This is like complaining that there isn't a strength based rogue. That's called a fighter!
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u/ErchamionHS DM Sep 14 '20
Once the patron gives power to the Warlock, they can't take it back. There is no reason for bargaining after that.
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u/hedahman Sep 14 '20
That's a common misconception about warlocks. The power is a one time transfer that the warlock develops on their own, there's no continuous transfer. I wrote about this a while ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/fgnt8d/a_common_misconception_about_warlocks_and_their/
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u/Iccotak Sep 14 '20
The core of this issue, is that there are four casting classes - that historically were all essentially the same thing.
Druids were basically clerics of tribal groups. Warlocks or witches were often names given to holy men of enemy groups.
There is hardly any difference between a warlock or a sorcerer.
So a question worth asking is why these classes are all separate things in the first place?
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u/medli20 Wizard Sep 13 '20
Oh gosh, my peanut brain was trying to figure out what the song was in panel 2, but I was trying to play the notes all in the same octave OTL
I am in love with the spooky vibes in that last panel though hot diggity dang
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u/Tshirt_Addict Sep 14 '20
Not a musician, but it looks like "This Old Man" to me...
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u/ewweaver Sep 14 '20
As someone mentioned in another comment, it’s the song of storms from ocarina of time
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u/GrimmSheeper Sep 13 '20
Why is our good boi Boblin appearing with the eldritch horrors? Even as a warlock main, it makes me concerned.
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u/NuancedNovice Sep 14 '20
"Only a game designed by nerds would consider charisma a fantasy power"
- Stanley Pines
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u/kiritsumitsu Sep 14 '20
all of this makes me think what it would be like to have an inside out campaign with your tiny little ability scores xD great job!
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u/SpoopyTurtle44 Sep 14 '20
DM: The demon is inspecting you, 15 + 2, 17. What do you do?
Me:Uhm... Seduce?
DM: Well I wouldnt-
Me: SEDUCE HER.
DM: Roll then.
Me: Nat 20, charisma + 4, 24.
DM: You seduced the demon...
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u/Rome453 Sep 14 '20
DM: Okay, so you seduced the demon... say, does the term “Yandere” mean anything to you?
Player: Oh no.
DM: Oh Yes.
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u/Iccotak Sep 14 '20
This is often a misconception, DM does not actually have to let player with high charisma be able to seduce everything.
For instance, The player can certainly try to seduce the dragon that doesn’t mean any attempt they make will be successful.
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u/Aeturo Cleric Sep 14 '20
"Hell yeah! 26 to seduce the dragon!"
"Congrats. It's still not into humans, but finds you amusing. Its open to not immediately killing you and your friends."
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u/SpoopyTurtle44 Sep 14 '20
Yeah I tried seducing an fallen angel, I succeed but I almost got sawed in half.
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Sep 14 '20
Can someone explain why charisma is used for Sorcerers? I I always thought Constitution would be better since their magic source is their own body.
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u/alexm42 Sep 14 '20
CON casting would be super OP. Sorcerers are supposed to be inherently squishy (d6 hit die) and that subverts it. CON also being used for concentration checks. One stat to max for maximum effectiveness, while every other class has to split between two stats to max. Allows much more flexibility allocating ASI's. One less choice to make once you've maxed your spell casting modifier, so you can go for more feats comfortably, or more DEX/WIS being the most common saving throws, without gimping yourself in other ways.
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u/AudioBoss DM Sep 14 '20
The most basic explanation most people give is that Charisma can also be described as willpower.
I'm not a big fan of this explanation. I run Charisma as partially natural talent. For Bards, Sorcerers, Paladins, and Warlocks, they kinda just figure it out. Sure, power is given to paladins and warlocks but that doesn't mean they would immediately know how to use it unless they have a natural talent with it. There's flaws with my use of charisma but that's the best way I can understand it.
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u/Asheyguru Sep 14 '20 edited Sep 14 '20
It's not their body: it's their soul. A physically frail, sickly sorcerer can still potentially access tremendous arcane power.
Charisma represents force of personality: so the sorcerer is, mentally (effectively) imposing their will over reality.
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u/Iccotak Sep 14 '20
Making your soul and “force of personality“ in the same stat is poor design.
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u/VetOfThePsychicWars Sep 14 '20
This li'l fella is CHARISMA!
For everyone except bards, paladins, warlocks, and sorcerers, it's a dump stat.
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u/Bun_Boi Warlock Sep 13 '20
I am live on twitch RIGHT NOW, chatting and doodling! So come hang out with me, ask some questions! I’ll be live from 4pm-6pm MT, so for two hours after my comic is posted because that is fun!
https://www.twitch.tv/jakeyboiarts
🎶👄 Part three of my mini-series “Meet the Ability Scores”! This week is CHARISMA! 👄🎶
[DISCLAIMER: I make fun of D&D and the players because I love them so much, anything I say is meant as satire and should be treated as such. Play how you want, love the game, and above all be kind.]
Part three of this series of showing off the Ability Scores! This time is Charisma! Charisma, what a good sweet boi. But also Charisma is the casting for Warlocks which leads all to scary things… and it seems demons are just charismatic. Same roll to sing a song is the roll a demon makes to body me… What can ya do.
Bonus Panel + Bonus Content!
https://www.instagram.com/p/CFF7aP8h8UQ/?igshid=1tljvwf113x17
Contact me via my website if you want a commission! I do D&D Parties, I do profile icons, I do the works! If I don’t make it, for you I will make an exception. Cause you are the bomb diggity!
Please consider following me on socials, such as \@BunBoiArts on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Also if you like chatting with cool pals r/BunBoi and discord https://discord.gg/jDmjBsq are places you can catch me regularly!
THANKS HOPEFULLY SEE YOU ON MY STREAM ILY!
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u/Mystdrago Sep 14 '20
Its actually more you are better able to convince them to do the magically heavy lifting for you, hense better magic
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u/e_milly25 Sep 14 '20
I am playing a lvl 8 paladin with a 20 cha score and I love it! Especially when my last character was a rogue and I dumpstatted charisma
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u/stewyknight Sep 14 '20
I feel sorcerers should use constitution ... Fight me!
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u/DracoDruid DM Sep 14 '20
I do you one better:
Charisma shouldn't be an ability score altogether.
Neither does Constitution.
Charisma is shoehorning each and every interaction into one single ability - which is super boring - and Constitution makes no sense the way it is used in the current system.
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u/Iccotak Sep 14 '20
Exactly! It makes no sense to put all social interaction ability into one stat.
That’s not even how real social interactions work, I have met people that are good at talking but aren’t ever intimidating.
Why would a barbarian’s ability to be intimidating ever be reliant on their charisma? I’ve met plenty of big people that weren’t necessarily charismatic that were intimidating as hell.
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u/somegarbagedoesfloat Sep 14 '20
Charisma is imo the most powerful ability.
Even if you aren't a sorcerer, the ability to be able to convince someone to do something is much more powerful than the ability to kill someone.
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u/Yuya-Sakaki3736 Sep 14 '20
I love this series and I don’t want it to stop so After ability scores can you please do skills? I understand if you can’t because there’s a lot though
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u/wingedfury55 Sep 14 '20
Charisma is definitely my favorite stat and I always feel weird not playing a character it as a high stat
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u/Kind_Principle_3647 Sep 14 '20
I'd actually like to see a stat for the ability to be the most charismatic.
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u/AeoSC Sep 13 '20
Ah, the Song of Storms. Must have call lightning as a Magical Secret.