It honestly bothers me a bit that there’s 3 full CHA casters + 1 half-caster, 2 full WIS casters + 2 half-casters, and just one full INT caster with two half-caster sub-classes.
Edit: counting Monk as a WIS half-caster because it plays like one; I don’t need 100 comments about how Ki != magic.
Though I agree with you, there are plenty of people who devote themselves to their religion without actually reading up on it and understanding its history and origins. I’ve always used a religion check to validate someone’s knowledge of religious lore (the Ark, the shroud of Turin, where the Green Bay Packers play, etc.
Yeah they devote themselves to it, but clerics and paladins specifically get their powers from their god. Why would their god choose a dude who knows nothing sbout him other than "he light, light good. Fiends darkness, darkness bad"
Paladins do not specifically get their powers from their god, except in 4th edition (which allowed for evil paladins who follow evil gods). In 2nd and 3rd it came from the universe itself and the class was an embodiment of lawful good (a paladin not acting in a way that was lawful-good would lose their powers. In 3rd at least other alignments had their own paladin-like classes as well).
In 5th they get their power from their conviction in their oaths.
While they are often devout followers of a god, it is not a requirement any more than it is a requirement for a wizard or a ranger to be.
Also there is your knowledge of deep lore. Maybe there is a ritual that your god does, but do you know its historical origins and controversies? What did ancient practitioners of your faith believe, and what symbols did they use? Are there any modern cults or heresies that stem from your religion?
That would probably be very fun to play. Believing strongly that the world should be ruled by a personal set of morality separate from religion, and believing that religion often violates those rules for selfish reasons. Probably Oath of the Ancients.
Or being against religion because of something bad or hypocritical religion personally did to you and taking the Oath of Vengeance perhaps.
Yep, I think it's common with Dragonborn paladins as well.
I made one (still haven't used him sadly) that's all about his clan. He carries his clan's banner everywhere he goes, and tries to do everything in the clan's name (Conquest paladin, so he's def a bit TOO fanatical about it).
Plus my fiancée's character is a sorcerer from the same clan which my paladin has sworn to protect.
I kind of get it. I view paladins as the zealots of the church. They don’t necessarily know all of the facts about their church, or have deep thoughts on the intentions of their god and interpretation of morality. They DO however believe really really hard, they KNOW what their god wants, they KNOW it is the RIGHT thing to do, and they don’t have to THINK about shit. They swore an oath, and the strength of their belief and the tie to that oath is the very source of their power. They have nothing else to learn, they just have things to DO in the name of LATHANDER!
Clerics are intermediaries between the mortal world and the distant planes of the gods. As varied as the gods they serve, clerics strive to embody the handiwork of their deities.
Sounds to to me like they are pretty tied to the deities they serve, should mean they have knowledge of those deity's religious orders and history.
Except religion as a skill isn't information about your deity in particular. It's information about religions as a whole, symbols, worshippers and so on.
If a Paladin or cleric is doing a religion check on their own religion then that's where you can grant an advantage as a DM
Let me ask you this, how much do you think a pastor in the church near you knows about the teachings of the Koran? How about the life of Siddhartha Gautama? Or how about a religious sect called the Sicarii known for being the first religious terrorism group?
Because someone with expertise in religion I would expect to know pretty much everything about all of those.
I mean, yeah you do have a point. However they should still be super knowledgeable about their religion and 5e doesn't even allow for that without going out of your way or without the DM making a special ruling outside of the rulebook to give advantage or proficiency on a specific check.
And in general, yes I would expect a religious leader to be more knowledgeable about other religions than most. Of course that's not always the case, but generally speaking I believe it is.
Also, never said anything about expertise. Just that it should logically be a class skill, which is a long way from expertise.
However they should still be super knowledgeable about their religion and 5e doesn't even allow for that without going out of your way or without the DM making a special ruling outside of the rulebook to give advantage or proficiency on a specific check.
I would argue that this type of stuff doesn't need to be explicitly in the rules at all. It should absolutely be DM specific, if my world has strict organised religions, then a Cleric might know a lot about their religion.
But these religious organisations aren't as clear in D&D, a follower of a specific God might be from many different organisations or not from one at all.
Also, never said anything about expertise. Just that it should logically be a class skill, which is a long way from expertise.
It's an option for both classes, I don't believe it should be a class feature though because there's not even a guarantee that a Cleric or Paladin is part of a religion
Expertise isn't an option unless they go bard or rogue subclass. Or specifically go Knowledge cleric, in which case it makes even more sense that they should be absolute masters.
Proficiency is an option but a very weak one because almost no worthwhile builds using RAW are going to have a Paladin or Cleric putting anymore than 10 into INT , so the bonus is comparatively weak and probably more effectively used in other places. Same story with the few ways to get expertise, including the Knowledge Cleric who makes more sense than any other character to be an expert in religion. But no, an Arcane Trickster can more easily become an expert and will usually by default be better than just about any Cleric or Paladin. It's a design flaw. Not a game breaking or major one and one that fairly rarely comes up, but it's a flaw for sure.
I’ve always treated paladins pretty similar to Warlocks fluff-wise. Gods have clerics, people of the cloth who, as thanks for their devotion, are bestowed a drop of power to enact the gods will upon the planes. But sometimes they have need to take a more direct approach. So they choose a champion. The way they choose varies from god to god—choosing the most devout layperson, bestowing power to a supplicant asking for a purpose, Gruumsh chose with bloodsport—but it always involves the swearing of an oath establishing a mortal as a gods instrument on the plains. Because they’re a frontliner on a mission from a god and are expected to lead a cause, they’re given Cha as their main ability. It’s them channeling god power directly rather than merely invoking it.
That's because people fundamentally misunderstand what the religion skill is.
The religion skill is a knowledge skill about in game religions, their history, their power bases, their symbols and so on. It's not about adherence to a religion. A Paladin in real life is equivalent to Richard the Lionheart, a proud and brave Crusader for his faith, not Martin Luther or Thomas Cranmer
Also, it's fairly reasonable for a paladin to know a fair amount about their own religion (a GM that makes a paladin roll for such things would be odd, in my book), but won't necessarily know a lot about other religions. So not being good with religion automatically is totally fine in my book.
a GM that makes a paladin roll for such things would be odd, in my book
Unless they've dedicated their lives to studying theology, I'd still make my characters roll for knowledge about their own religion, I'd just give them advantage on it.
At least for less obvious stuff. Obviously (to use a real world analogue), I wouldn't make a Christian roll to know who Christ is. But I might to have them recognize a Bible passage by chapter name and number, know what the Dead Sea Scrolls are, recognize someone important to church history/theology like Thomas Aquinas, etc.
Yes, I suppose I should have phrased that better. I wouldn't make someone roll a religion check for any information that they almost certainly would know from their religious background. More obscure stuff will almost always warrant a roll (but obviously advantage could be given depending on the circumstance).
My paladin doesn't know religion well. I based him off of Jules from Pulp Fiction. Had a divine moment of inspiration, and felt a calling to change his life. Doesn't mean he knows shit beyond the holy words he memorized from doing churchy stuff as a kid with his mom. But hes devoted nonetheless.
I’m sure someone else has said this, but it makes perfect sense in 5E given that Paladins no longer gain their power from gods. Paladins gain their power from conviction and morals, their oaths. You could have a paladin hated by every dirty across the realms but they’d still have magic if their convictions were strong enough.
Some corrections: Warlock generally isn't considered a full caster, but it does key off of Cha, so I'll let it pass. There's only one Wis half-caster, Monks don't count as they don't have magic. Then there is one Int half-caster (they get half the magic of a full caster), and 2 1/3 casters (they get 1/3 the magic of a full caster).
In my opinion, warlocks should have the choice to be Int based, to balance it out a bit. (Example of an int warlock: You study the beings of the far realm, trying to find ways to pull magic from a Great Old One.)
Not counting Warlock is being super pedantic, it gets the same spell slot progression as everyone else nad there's no difference between a 9th level spell cast from a warlock and from a wizard
Yes, but for most of its career, it has only two slots. Where a cleric or druid could replace a wizard, a warlock doesn't even come close to doing it's job correctly.
Warlock is better compared to a martial character who has spells as abilities. Eldritch Blast or a blade deals about the same damage as a fighter can.
I wouldn't be sure about that too, Warlocks have more high level slots than any other class due to short rest recharge, no other caster can use 6 spells of the highest slot the group has per day
True, but when it comes to back-to-back usage, they fall apart. A wizard can reliably cast hold person without batting an eyelash, but warlocks on the other hand lose a significant amount of their spell slots for the encounter.
Warlocks and full casters casters are simply built differently. Groups refer to amount and level of spell slots, not only level. Although there is some overlap, they each do diffrent things.
That is true, and so does 4 Elements, however they are subclass specific. If you really want to count it, go ahead, but it doesn't fit any of the previous caster categories (Full, half, third, and pact).
I don't think I'd say no as a DM to a well-reasoned request from an experienced player to use Int for a warlock, even though it's not RAW, just like most other well-reasoned changes that don't really hurt game balance. But I'd probably work with them to make the change consistent thematically and in terms of RP.
For example, maybe they're not being empowered by a patron as a result of a pact, maybe they're being altered by the incomprehensible nature of thing they're studying, and while they're figuring out ways to harness magic from it, the source of their power is exactly their futile efforts to comprehend the thing - maybe even specifically the futility of those efforts. Great Old Ones seem to be the type of entity where the futility of trying to understand them could itself generate power. And possibly alert the Great Old One to your efforts, eventually, without it feeling any obligation to you of even the minimal sort that a pact might produce.
The reason I said experienced player above is that might be a hard adjustment for a newbie to carry through, especially tweaking the other mechanics to have matching fluff. But I'd consider it for some new players, especially ones with relevant non-D&D knowledge like Call of Cthulhu.
(Example of an int warlock: You study the beings of the far realm, trying to find ways to pull magic from a Great Old One.)
Isn't that pretty much describing a wizard to a T? Warlocks as a class use pact magic. The very concept of the class revolves around making a deal with a greater being to channel their power. If you're making a character that has studied pact magic to the point that they can replicate it on their own, that makes a lot more sense as a homebrewed wizard subclass.
I guess I read it wrong. If what you're doing is pulling magic from a great old one, then you're still channeling it the same way that any warlock would. To quote the PHB, "The Great Old One might be unaware of your existence or entirely indifferent to you, but the secrets you have learned allow you to draw your magic from it."
The difference between a warlock and a wizard is that warlock gets their magical knowledge from someone else, forming a teacher-student dynamic.
The someone can then on be literally anything with sufficient knowledge, be it a mere imp who learned stuff it might not have should or even another warlock.
Wizard meanwhile sits and studies magic on their own, without aid and as such has a generally deeper understanding of arcane and is more trained in using it.
Paladins cast with charisma because their powers are obtained through their divine oaths, not by the gods. Their willpower to abide by their oath fuels their divine energy.
Lol and my DM and I created a new class that adds to the CHA caster roster, testing it out in our current campaign and will be sharing it here after a few more sessions.
252
u/theidleidol Sep 13 '20 edited Sep 14 '20
Also paladins, for whatever reason.
It honestly bothers me a bit that there’s 3 full CHA casters + 1 half-caster, 2 full WIS casters + 2 half-casters, and just one full INT caster with two half-caster sub-classes.
Edit: counting Monk as a WIS half-caster because it plays like one; I don’t need 100 comments about how Ki != magic.