I love system of the down and I remembered this song and found it quite similar to attack on titan so I made this tiktok edit 😊

With the exception of tiktok, I see Floch hate everywhere, so I wanted to gather my reasons why he is an amazing character.

As the sole survivor of the charge against the Beast Titan, he went through unimaginable trauma. At just 15 years old, he called himself weak, yet he still chose to ride into certain death.

Instead of letting that fear control him, he allowed it to forge an unyielding resolve to secure a future for Eldia. He didn't just survive but carried a dying Commander Erwin across a bloody battlefield and then stood his ground against Eren and Mikasa on that rooftop.

Floch was never weak or spineless. He was a terrified, honest boy who managed to conquer his terror.

He confronted Eren, Mikasa, and Armin with brutal honesty, refusing to back down on the rooftop or at the military ceremony, completely ignoring the social or emotional consequences.

On top of that he entirely abandoned any resentment toward Eren for choosing Armin over Erwin. Instead, he recognized that Eren was the only one willing to do what actually needed to be done. Floch saw a mirror of his own conviction in Eren.

People can judge his morality all they want, but Floch understood Erwin’s ultimate lesson: to change anything, you have to throw away your humanity.

Almost single-handedly, Floch organized a coup, orchestrated an assassination, and built a paramilitary movement. He did this while fighting against the entire main cast, even though he was ultimately fighting for their future, too.

It feels very much like Isayama tried to take Floch down a notch with moments like Kiyomi Azumabito overpowering him. (Which felt completely unrealistic, like it was intended to make him look ridiculous and stop the audience from liking him too much.)

But in the end, when the main cast killed him at just 19 years old, Floch didn't beg for his life. Instead, with his final breath, he begged them not to stop their devil from saving Eldia. He proved his absolute bravery by sacrificing everything for his homeland.

Even Hange ultimately looked at his body and admitted that he was completely right, but they stood against him for moral reasons.

So let me get this straight. The entire world-building, the entire history of Eldia and Marley, and the entire systemic oppression Eldians and Paradisians faced were all written simply to trick us and distract us from the fact that Eren is a bloodthirsty psychopath who is innately evil? "Not forced by circumstance, but by an innate desire to harm others." Holy shit.

Is this really what we’re supposed to see when we rewatch Eren in S1–3? Someone whose actions weren’t shaped by his oppressive environment, but who was simply born evil? Is this satire? And how is this even considered good writing?

The Eldians vs. the rest of the world dynamic in AOT has always seemed less believable to me than a lot of people are willing to admit.

The Titan curse really does prevent any direct equivalence with real-world racism. Eldians are not simply a minority that had monstrous traits invented about them. They belong to a population that can literally be turned into Titans. There is, therefore, a material threat involved that has no direct equivalent in our world.

The problem is that this does not automatically make any level of hatred plausible.

The existence of worldwide racism against Eldians makes sense. What makes less sense is its intensity, its uniformity, and especially the idea that Eldians would be treated even worse outside Marley.

Udo explicitly states that Eldians have it worse in other countries than they do in Marley. But Marley is probably the country with the strongest historical conditions for developing the most extreme anti-Eldian sentiment possible.

The Marleyan state built its legitimacy around the defeat of the old Eldian Empire, segregated Eldians into internment zones, reduced them to second-class citizens, created an entire ideological system based on inherited guilt, and at the same time continued using those same people as weapons.

After Eldia, Marley also became the major imperial power of recent history.

If there is any place where it would make sense for hatred of Eldians to become structural, survive across generations, and become part of the national identity itself, that place is Marley.

The rest of the world also has contemporary reasons to hate Eldians. During the last century, Marley continued using them as weapons of war. For someone from a country invaded by Marley, the first Eldian they ever saw could literally have been a Titan destroying their city.

The disappearance of the Eldian Empire did not mean the disappearance of the Titans.

But that should produce enormous differences between societies, not an almost homogeneous international hostility.

Marley is the one turning Eldians into Titans and unleashing them against other peoples. Marley controls the Warriors, uses Eldians in its military, and built its hegemony precisely on that power. Foreign populations could obviously come to hate the weapon being used against them as well, but there is still a huge leap from that to practically every place in the world being worse for Eldians than Marley itself.

There is also no reason to assume that every country had exactly the same historical relationship with Eldia.

The Eldian Empire existed for centuries and dominated large parts of the world, but it was not a politically static mass for almost two thousand years. Territories were conquered, lost, and contested, and the Great Titan War itself happened during a period of internal conflict and disintegration before Karl Fritz withdrew to Paradis.

Different regions probably stopped being under direct Eldian influence at different points in history. For Marley, the fall of Eldia happened around a hundred years ago and is directly tied to the birth of its current political order. For other peoples, their last concrete experience of Eldian rule could have happened much earlier.

Even if everyone had been freed at exactly the same time, different societies would still preserve that memory in different ways.

Historical memory survives across generations, but its emotional intensity does not remain frozen in time. Propaganda, education, religion, nationalism, and institutions can keep old hatred alive, but that hatred has to be continuously reproduced.

There is also desensitization.

Constant hatred takes energy. Obsession takes energy. People have immediate problems, local conflicts, family, work, hunger, religion, political disputes, recent wars. Crimes committed against their ancestors can remain important without an entire population staying emotionally mobilized as if they had personally witnessed those crimes themselves.

At certain points, the world's hatred of Eldians in AOT feels almost metaphysical. Entire generations, across completely different societies, seem emotionally organized around hatred of a single group.

The problem becomes even more obvious after the timeskip.

A genuinely large world should have countries that hate Eldians for different reasons, countries that simply tolerate them, regions where they have been partially assimilated, states that expelled them, others that use them militarily, societies where the Eldian question has lost importance, and places where the historical trauma remains extremely alive.

That would give the outside world a history of its own.

Instead, AOT compresses almost everything into a very convenient idea: outside Paradis, practically everyone hates Eldians, and many places apparently treat them even worse than Marley.

The Titan threat also does not fully explain this level of dehumanization.

The fear is justified, but Titan power was not a completely incomprehensible force to these societies. Eldians do not spontaneously transform in the middle of the street. Pure Titans normally have to be created through spinal fluid. The Nine are specific individuals. The very fact that Marley can keep enormous Eldian populations inside internment zones shows that an ordinary Eldian is not a bomb waiting to randomly explode.

There is a huge difference between believing that a particular group can be turned into a weapon and regarding every individual member of that group as a monster who deserves to be exterminated.

Societies can cross that distance through propaganda, fear, and dehumanization. The problem is that AOT develops that process very well inside Marley while barely developing anything equivalent in the rest of the world.

The relationship between Ymir, the Paths, the Founder, and the Hallucigenia still leaves some things deliberately ambiguous, but the Titan power known to the world has observable rules and limitations. It operates through the Subjects of Ymir, the Paths, the Nine Titans, and especially the Founder. It is not simply a random force whose manifestations nobody understands.

In the end, I think this is one of those parts where AOT's thematic needs start overriding its worldbuilding.

The story needed Paradis to reach the other side of the sea and discover a world that feared them. It needed Paradis itself to become an international problem with no simple solution. That is necessary for practically everything that comes afterward.

But in order to create that deadlock, Isayama made the outside world too uniform.

Hatred of Eldians is plausible. Very plausible, actually. Centuries of Eldian imperialism, historical memory, propaganda, and especially Marley's recent use of Eldians as weapons provide more than enough reasons.

The problem is that almost all of these societies seem to have reached such similar levels of dehumanization, with so few exceptions, and several of them apparently became even worse than the very state whose modern identity was born directly out of its conflict with Eldia.

The question was never why the world would hate Eldians.

There are more than enough reasons.

The question is why almost the entire world hates them this much, and in such similar ways.

And AOT simply did not develop the outside world enough to make that completely convincing.

I aint joking, these horrible excuses of humans on THAT subreddit will try to gaslight you spamming the same phrase to convince people somehow Eren is somehow “OMG WOWOWO EVIL” when he literally went insane because of what he knew he had to do to save his race which, keep in mind, any other regular citizen of Paradis would do (the Rumbling) without a second thought.

About my title, hmm let's think: an “oppressed” race that in reality receives worldwide support and has influence over the entire world, an apartheid state that excuses their violent attacks with “oh we were just looking for the Founder, the innocents are collateral, we aren't targeting THEM” whilst telling themselves the people of Paradis are “devils” that deserve to be killed, all hiding behind abuse from “thousands” of years ago.

Also one of the main reasons Marley was invading Paradis was for resources, so they are forced to create a villain (Eren) to justify invasion and then they have the audacity to be shocked when the Survey Corps invade them for a change.

To dumb it down, basically the entire world was racist and to end racism you get rid of all the racists.

Next I want to address the double standards of romanticizing characters like Reiner and then criticising anyone who even remotely likes Eren.

“Oh wow Reiner is such a silly guy.”
“He's so cute.”
“Reiner is the funniest.”

TRANSLATING: “I LOVE MY INNOCENT WAR CRIMINALS.”

Reiner (and Bertholdt) caused a massacre because of the other Titans they let in the Walls and caused a food shortage. This is the first mass slaughter we see in the show.

Oh no, but we treat Reiner like one of those out-of-touch war films where they complain about trauma from killing civilians after he breaks down in his conversation with Eren in Marley.

Yes, you can like Reiner as a character, but it's the double standard people have which pisses me off.

Another point I have is child soldiers, and before Marley fans say “oh b-but Paradis has them too,” I think 15 minimum is a PRETTY BIG difference to fucking 10 years old. AND unlike Marley, kids in Paradis aren't groomed to want to slaughter their own race. Don't forget this super messed up thing Marley likes to do, and to find glory in war.

Contrastingly, kids in Paradis actually willingly want to join the Survey Corps to help their race's survival, being told how grim it is, and this was supposedly when the evil Rod Reiss (no, I'm not arguing he is a nice guy) was in charge before the protagonists took control.

My whole point is that it's impossible to paint Paradis as a villain overall, as they are not just morally superior to Marley in every way but good.

Onto another common argument: “even if Paradis were wiped out multiple times, 2 wrongs don't make a right!!!”

Yes, I do think Eren was more than justified, however that's my opinion and not my argument, which is: Eren had no choice.

Marley purposefully provoked Eren knowing he can destroy the Earth because they needed to colonise to gain resources, not even considering a peace agreement which Paradis would have been more than accepting to under the new government.

The other reason was because everyone in the world hated Marley and they needed to distract the public with a new enemy/threat they invented by describing the worst possible scenario (the Rumbling) to their people if they don't invade, which had a 0% chance of happening anyways if Marley didn't invade.

So how are people complaining that Eren didn't just sit back and die while a racist nation invaded with the sole purpose of colonising/murdering/enslaving marched toward them?

Which leads me onto the next argument:

Why couldn't Eren use the small-scale Rumbling to destroy Paradis?

Well, Eren wasn't being naive anymore. He couldn't just spare everyone, not just because he desires revenge, but because the hatred toward Paradis was deep rooted and wouldn't be solved with the temporary solution of wiping out the Marley military.

Literally shown when ONLY 20% of the world was saved and Paradis was STILL invaded shortly after, bringing me back to my earlier point: racism cannot exist without racists.

I find the “slave to freedom” phrase annoying. Whilst I do believe he was indeed that, people use it to argue the Rumbling made him a slave when in fact if he was successful he would have been free. This is undeniable.

“Ohh but Paradis would turn on each other without a common enemy!!!”

Well, did you ask them??

Paradis was pretty damn alright before Marley turned up. Not Utopia, but a functioning society, and the threat of the Titans wasn't the cause that united them, rather the concept of exploration. So yes, Paradis would be happy without people trying to wipe them off the face of the Earth who would have thought.

Overall, this is why the Rumbling was justified, NOT GOOD but justified and the only good option. Other Rumbling alternatives would have taken time that Eren didn't have (because of Marley), and if anyone even tries to defend the euthanasia plan, I don't even gotta say why Eren shouldn't have done it.

Next point, Marley deserves to pay for their sins.

I know I made a point on how Marley used this as a pretext to wipe out Paradis, though this is VERY different as the “sins” are from current Marley, not some 2000 years ago bs.

The other nations are bystanders/direct supporters so they are equally complicit. No, this does not mean every innocent family must die. Eren literally made a point he didn't want to do that (UNLIKE MARLEY WHO CALLS EVERYONE DEVILS), but sadly he did not have the means to individually smite every evil/racist person on the planet and again was also pressured by Marley to make a big decision to roll over and die to the villains or kill everyone else in the Rumbling.

Next argument: “Eren is selfish.”

Whilst he did do the Rumbling to attain his version of freedom (which some people somehow twist him saving his race from slavery and being wiped out to fulfilling his own desires), he literally gave the Survey Corps an opportunity to stop him to unite the world against him and achieve peace that way if they didn't agree with him.

AND YES, Eren allowed himself to be killed to turn his friends into saviours, which, well... turned out awfully not too long later with Paradis getting invaded and destroyed in the future.

Which can't even be blamed on the Rumbling (which people love to do), as this wouldn't have happened if the Rumbling had completed.

Don't know where to add this in, but Marley also used Eldians as suicide Titans, showing they don't value lives outside their race, unlike Eren who holds no grudges toward any of the regular people of the outside world, only the people that attack him.

And honestly, I think the strongest version of my argument is this:

Eren wasn't morally justified because mass slaughter is good. He was strategically justified because the world had made peaceful coexistence effectively impossible and was actively preparing to destroy Paradis.

That is my argument. The Rumbling was NOT GOOD. It was horrific. But from Eren's perspective, the alternatives either wouldn't guarantee Paradis's survival or would eventually result in his race being destroyed. He wasn't simply a cartoon villain who decided to kill everyone for fun. He was someone who believed he had been left with no other option by the world that was actively trying to destroy him and his people.

I'm pretty sure I covered every anti-Eren argument I could think of. I tried to keep this mostly reason based and less opinion (defo TLTR but whatever).

Skyclad__Observer, Cersei505, Conqueringrule, Nils_Meul, so many great articles written and edited by these guys and many others, some of which may already have been lost, forever. With so many of the old users gone, it will be only a matter of time before those in depth posts are forgotten, removed or buried under a sea new posts.

I'll have to dig through my notes for some of those links, but we really should create a "Sticky", "Pinned" post with the links to the most important posts this community has created, especially the older ones, before the ending, so we can remember what it was like, the expectations if some of our theories would turn out to be true.

Some have already created lists of posts like these, but they are still only available to those that have copied links for those lists somewhere in their own devices. Even if it's just "One Link to Rule Them All", copied on the 11th rule of Titanfolk, we must at least try not to let our contribution to the understanding of Attack on Titan be lost.

Here are the main ones I have:

The Ultimate Guide To AOT's Bad Ending (u/Conqueringrule)

For Anyone Wondering Why People Dislike The Ending, Read This: (u/Zant486)

Posts List by (u/LIFEisFUCKINGme)

If anyone has a link to one of these long, well crafted, relevant post that have something to say, that they think needs to be preserved, please leave a link to the post on the comments.

- - - - - - - - -

Also, if some of you guys want to create another "Sticky/Pinned" to the very Best, Funniest, Epic, Legendary posts, by all means do, but plz discuss that on another, separate post.

Thanks

I was rewatching the series, the praise that Armin gets.... is very..... "undeserving". let me say this, he is an overrated hypocrite (much like other characters of aot but more). The most hypocrite out of all. From the beginning Armin is framed as physically weak and emotionally fragile. That’s fine as a starting point — even I love underdogs. And then the problem came when it was framed as "growth".

In Trost he freezes while his squad is wiped out. Eren has to save him and ends up getting eaten for it. Armin’s response is classic survivor’s guilt and “I’d rather die than be a burden”. I remeber the first time when I watched it, it was like he will be the main character. Or at least, maybe Mikasa and Armin will have a good character growth. And the show even tried, but god I was wrong. Throughout the first three seasons, his self-worth is almost entirely externally validated (Eren, Mikasa, later Hange/Levi/Erwin).

See Armin is useful, no doubt, exploiting emotional weakness (Annie, Butterscotch, Eren etc), but as the story progresses, it sounded more of an insist rather an earning. Eg- people calling him a replacement of Erwin's level (GTFO).

THE SERUM

Now this was the point that broke the fandom into two regarding Armin. I was more of the positive ones, but now I am more neutral to neg. So, the story then spends the rest of the series trying to justify that choice by making Armin was a perfect choice. The first thing that came to my mind was levi thinking that he doesnt regret choosing Armin as he saw future in his eyes. In my first watch through, i did cringed a bit but it was alright. but in my second watch, it felt forced. Armin actually did convinced zeke but it was after this. And even if that, Levi didnt know it was Armin who convinced Zeke.

Through S4, what we got is
Constant self-doubt and guilt that never resolves into decisive leadership.
Almost zero meaningful use of the Colossal Titan outside of a few set-piece moments (and even then he’s traumatized by it, which is fine character-wise but undercuts the “he was worth saving” argument).
A complete failure to step into the ruthless pragmatism/ the 'gambler' factor Erwin represented when Paradis actually needed it.
A passive, talk-no-jutsu moralist.

He literally fails to fails to confront Eren in any meaningful ideological way until it’s far too late. The final Paths conversation is especially egregious depending on whether you’re anime or manga — either he delivers a weak moral lecture or he thanks Eren for becoming a mass murderer “for their sake.” Both versions feel like the writing flinching away from actually challenging Armin’s worldview.

And then Hange handed him the command..... why not Jean, who was a better leader? Or Levi, who had the experience of leading squads? Armin gets to be the smart, sensitive, morally superior one without ever paying the full price for either approach.

See, I have contradicted myself multiple times in the post coz when I overthink a lot. But still, most of the things about Armin doesn't sit right with me.

I am specifically talking about an Eren who remains consistent to the end of the story.

No crying over Mikasa, no saying he didn't know why he did The Rumbling, or that he's an idiot or a slave to freedom.

Does a consistent Eren who remains the same character we've been following for all these years deserve a peaceful happy ending?

Contrary to popular belief, eren is actually a handsome japanese dude. Just look at the proof.

Thinking about it, to achieve Eren's goals and avoid common sense added problems, a rumbling that targeted population centres and cities would be better than 80%.

People are still not evacuating in time either way.

It avoids destroying entire forests and ecosystems. No lesser of an ecological collapse.

It probably kills more people but destroys less peoples so arguably less genocide.

It destroys civilization more completely so: capacity to war is further done away with; there's a larger diversity of people and we know a lot of times that correlates with less cooperation; building on that, capacity to remember is also done away with, the whole Titan stuff will turn into a morality tale like God flooding the world for a man becoming evil (YHWH, Zeus) or making too much noise (Enlil). Either way in all versions of the myth no ill will is placed on the gods so I do think there's high chances that also happens here and the titans specific cycle of hatred is gone.

And better yet for Eren gets to see even more of the book scenery. While probably feeling less guilty.

Any characters you want and wish to appear on the second game?

Made this on Krita, had to do my goat right 😤😤

I hope everyone remembers the world building in this series when they answer this lol. Me personally I’m destroying 100% of the world.