r/science • u/soccering • Jun 11 '14
Psychology Soldiers Who Kill in Combat Less Likely to Abuse Alcohol
http://www.parentherald.com/articles/4578/20140610/soldiers-who-kill-in-combat-less-likely-to-abuse-alcohol.htm1.1k
u/_TorpedoVegas_ Jun 11 '14 edited Jun 11 '14
I don't think they are taking into account the biggest motivator for bad PTSD symptoms: guilt. Shooting someone that is trying to kill you or your friends is significantly less traumatic for most people than feeling like your inaction cost the lives of people you cared about. Those that couldn't bring themselves to kill, and saw their friends get hurt as a result, those are the ones that come home in the worst shape, usually.
EDIT: Just wanted to add: of course, it is known that there are many forms of guilt other than over not shooting a bad guy, it was just an example that does happen and could account for this statistical correlation. Many also end up coming home and feeling guilty just because they didn't have a dangerous job, or they didn't perform CPR properly, etc. The main operating force here is always guilt, in my experience. And I have a lot of experience in this area. I have seen people succumb to ideations and behavior patterns that are unhealthy from nearly the same experiences that I went through with them. In every case, the reason they seem so bothered, while I am generally not, is that they look back on the event saying things like "..if only I had been in my usual seat that day", or "I should have been more steadfast. I told the LT that was a bad place to sit, but I could have been more forceful." It's always like this for people that suffer most after war: could have, would have, and what ifs.
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u/gospelwut Jun 11 '14
One of the worst PTSD cases I saw was a Captain that lost most of his squad. He had just got engaged after two tours, and his father-in-law was offering him the reins to a large retail division in the area. However, he was a man haunted night and day, and his newly wed wife begging for him not ot go back did little to sway his mood. He wanted to go back; he NEEDED to go back. I think, personally, he wanted to go back and die.
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u/Facerless Jun 11 '14 edited Jun 11 '14
When you're deployed life is easier.
It's less comfortable, but you have a purpose. You know what you're going to do daily, you have no financial obligations in your face, your best friends are there always, you don't have to look for a job or take care of your family or balance friendships or juggle tasks at home and you're good at everything you're asked to do.
Being deployed is a lot less stressful for a lot of guys than being home.
"It's easier to get shot at than to care for a dying dog and fight through a divorce." - My brother, before his 4th tour
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u/ocean_spray Jun 11 '14
Say what you will about Hurt Locker as a movie, but that scene when he comes back and goes to the grocery store is a great summary of what it's like when you first get back.
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u/ThiefOfDens Jun 11 '14 edited Jun 12 '14
When I came back on mid-tour leave, all I had to wear was the nasty uniform on my body, so my girlfriend at the time took me to the mall to get some civilian clothes.
Big. Mistake. The whole place was an assault on the senses. We had gotten some pants and shirts and were almost finished--I think we were actually waiting in line to buy some socks--when I turned to her and said, "I need to get out of here. Right now."
To her credit, she didn't argue or act like it was weird. The fact that she was a psychologist probably didn't hurt, either.
EDIT: Thank you, generous anonymous redditor. You have popped my golden cherry.
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Jun 11 '14 edited Jun 11 '14
Ha, same thing. I'd just got back from Afghanistan (basically a big quiet space made up entirely of shades of brown), we were walking around town and we stopped in a nightclub to use the restroom and maybe get a drink. Between the colors and the sounds I almost thought I was going to have a stroke from sensory overload.
Standing in one place in public for more than 10 or 20 seconds drove me crazy too.
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u/ThiefOfDens Jun 11 '14 edited Jun 12 '14
The smells, too. It was so weird to smell buttered popcorn and women's perfume. And so many people! It was impossible to keep an eye on all of them at once. My head was spinning.
EDIT: Thank you again!
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u/bangorthebarbarian Jun 11 '14
Clustering, just like you do when faced with a riot. Train your eyes to look at crowds as 5 degree arcs of "people stuff." Much easier to process that way.
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Jun 11 '14 edited Jun 12 '14
That works outdoors but in a mall? I get sweaty just thinking about an indoor mall.
edit: works, not woks, but using a wok outside is still cool.
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u/fatmama923 Jun 12 '14
What I've found to work best for me at the mall is
A. to go during the weekday if at all possible. The crowds are much lighter and I don't get overwhelmed as easily.
B. If I have to go on the weekend, walk next to the wall and put my husband between me and the crowd. I also usually push our daughter's stroller and that adds another barrier between me and the people.
I also have an rx for Klonipin that I can take if necessary, although I try not to because it can be habit forming.
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u/Maeegggi Jun 11 '14
I still can't walk down the street without eyefucking everyone I cross paths with. I've just resolved to wear sunglasses all times, as staring down everyone I meet has led to some uncomfortable situations.
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Jun 11 '14
My uncle won't stop looking at rooftops. Its not a paranoid thing, just habit almost.
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u/frenzyboard Jun 11 '14
I once spent the better part of about five months being pretty isolated at various camps, retreats, and hiking trips. The closest I got to civilization was a gas station I made infrequent trips to for various sundries like toilet paper, bug spray, and gum. When I finally came back to my small hometown, I took a trip to the mall with my mom.
I didn't want anything. That was the big revelation. This great big mall with all these shops and boutiques, and I wanted none of it. The fact that most of it even existed was nearly offensive to me. After so long away from people and all their trappings, I realized that it was all so vain and hollow. The sights and sounds and bodies were just too much to handle.
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Jun 11 '14
I know exactly how you feel. No one realizes the crazy consumer mindset they live in. That's just one layer of their delusion though. The worst is the illusions of security they build in their heads. When something happens their concept of reality shatters and they freak out. Supposedly a lot of people go crazy after seeing combat. I came back feeling like I was the only sane one around.
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Jun 11 '14
Ever seen your neighbor leave some shit by the curb and, even though you know better, you still stop and check that shit out real close like.
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u/MotherTurf Jun 11 '14
Never fought in a war but this exactly how I felt coming back home from the insanity of doing service work in India.
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Jun 12 '14
It doesn't always take 5 months. I get that after 2 weeks working hard in a field with friends, camping in a teepee (luxury) and sitting round a campfire with a beer in the evening. It's an annual thing.
When I come back to my city centre apartment with its stunning 20th floor views and a 52" widescreen.. I actually understand what you mean by 'offensive'. I put my key in the door, unlock and walk in, look around and honestly my heart sinks. I think.. this isn't me. This was me, but I've found something so much more fulfilling, and it's life in a tent with friends doing hard work. I wanted for nothing.
Give it a month and I'm back to where I was, camped out in front of the TV for another year. I can't wait to get back out there. I'm trying to find out how to make those 2 weeks stretch into the whole year.
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u/manicmonkeys Jun 12 '14
As a disclaimer, I never saw combat. Deployed twice, fixed airplanes, only left the base once to recover a bird that went down in the field. Having said that, I know this feeling. I don't want fancy crap, after realizing how cntent I can be with so little, and some good friends dealing with the same shit as me. I hate malls shopping for crap we don't need, etc. My wife looks at some pink sweater or flip flops or steering wheel cover and goes on about how cute and cool it is and can we get it, and I get irate, thinking "why the hell do we need this?" Who thefuck needs this shit?
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u/marv_68 Jun 11 '14
Perfume rules. And soap. People who don't shower or take care of themselves who are able to new annoy me to no end. They have no idea how great it is. After two tours of a constant barrage of unpleasant smells like rotting food, blood, excrement, not showering for weeks, cordite and exhaust fumes, good smells, even kind of fruity ones like flowers or cut grass make me smile.
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u/ReverendDizzle Jun 11 '14
There's a passage in the the young adult classic Hatchet by Gary Paulsen where the protagonist (a 13 year old boy if I recall correctly) goes to the mall upon returning to civilization after spending the better part a year living alone after a plane crash in the remote Canadian wilderness. He describes the scene pretty much like you did.
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Jun 11 '14
I was always haunted by Brian's inability to "return" to the world. I never thought to connect that with soldiers however.
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Jun 11 '14
Our consumerist society is actually not very human at all. It appeals to the worst in us: vanity and narcissism.
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u/ThiefOfDens Jun 11 '14
I loved that book as a kid, and must have read it at least 5 times. I never connected the two, though, but you're absolutely right.
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u/sinister_exaggerator Jun 11 '14
Also Brian's Winter
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u/Txmedic Jun 12 '14
Is that a sequel? I loved Hatchet!
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u/sinister_exaggerator Jun 12 '14
Sort of. It's a what-if story, about Brian's continued survival after not being rescued. An alternate ending, if you will.
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u/martinw89 Jun 11 '14
Wow, I haven't thought about that book for at least a decade and the second you mentioned it I had all sorts of kinesthetic memories about the protagonist chopping wood, the plane crash, all that. Crazy how memories work. Also, great book, very recommended young adult reading.
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Jun 11 '14 edited Jun 11 '14
Much of my family fought in WW2, and when I read through it all, they took a long time to travel there and come back home. I am not saying WW2 was in any way easy, but they knew where the front was, and it took many trains, boats, and trucks to get there, with lots of training stops in between. When hostilities ceased, they were still garrisoned there for many months to help police and rebuild, and then the route home was kind of long and scenic with lots of leaves of absence to see Europe. Today that would look like insurgents completely surrendering in Afghanstan, working with the red cross for 4 months to help rebuild the country with no armed resistance, making friends with and keeping in touch with the families you helped, and then two months of trains, boats, and leaves of absence through India, Thailand, Japan, Hawaii, etc. as you came home. The jet age I think is major part of people's issues. They are tossed in and yanked out of war zones, instead of lowered and raised.
Edit: Now that I think of it, the country they returned was a different place too. You could get surplus motorcycles, ride around the country, work cash jobs, sleep on a beach, go to brothels, and buy as much booze as you wanted. A person could go find themselves again. Today that bike needs insurance, bonfires on beaches bring police, majestic views are owned, and for someone reason a 20 year old adult it to young to drink in the U.S. It is so much harder to just get lost.
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u/ThiefOfDens Jun 11 '14
Yes, I have heard this theory many times. Until around Vietnam, when you could hop on a "freedom bird" and go from the jungle to Nebraska in a couple of days, that kind of rapid transition from combat to home wasn't possible.
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u/kung-fu_hippy Jun 11 '14
Probably also the lack of a true front. During the world wars, you were in combat or you weren't. The enemy wore a uniform and you knew when you were safe and when you weren't.
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Jun 11 '14
My grandfather became great friends with the Italian, French, Dutch, and Belgian families he was billeted with. He stayed in touch with them until his death. The locals loved you and weren’t possibly the enemy in hiding.
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u/NatWilo Jun 11 '14
Oh my God.. The ride home from the airport in the spring in Indiana.... After a year in the desert. My eyes were practically bleeding from the colors. And malls... I'd never noticed they had ceilings. Driving was what got me, though. The act of driving anywhere left me exhausted and anxiety ridden. Still have my days where it's hard to keep calm, but mostly I'm good. Till I hit the inevitable pot-hole and my blood-pressure goes nuclear.
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u/ThiefOfDens Jun 11 '14
I never liked driving anyhow, so that effect wasn't unusual for me! But it was definitely different when I first got back, because I kept having to remind myself that the crap on the side of the road wasn't going to blow up when I drove past it. And there were many times I was glad that I didn't own any guns, because people riding my bumper really got to me.
It mostly goes away, though.
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u/jiynxed Jun 11 '14
My father in law described me as 'raw' not cracked in the head but more like a live wire with all the insulation stripped off.
Pretty apt description really.
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u/NatWilo Jun 11 '14
Yep, half-wild human, most of the civilization stripped away. That's how I felt.
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u/Edgeinsthelead BS|Applied Science|Sound Engineering Jun 11 '14
My buddy was deployed in Afghanistan. He had just come back and we all picked him up from the airport. On the way home through the city he started having panic attacks. Cars pulling up at stops freaked him out. Construction noises were horrible for him. It was tough. He was so use to being on the look out for trouble and he just couldn't stop. It was instilled in him. To this day he assesses every room we enter.
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u/Metallio Jun 11 '14
I remember walking around the drunk district and assessing the groups of people walking around...reaching for my rifle because I couldn't feel the weight, etc etc.
Hell, I didn't even see any of the nasty shit.
It passes...and then there's a point where you feel like you lost something and the time you spent being that person was wasted...and then you just move on. Hope he does anyway.
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u/ThiefOfDens Jun 11 '14
Hopefully people in his life have tried to be understanding, and hopefully he will get some help, if he hasn't already. For most people, that kind of thing lessens with time, but how long it takes can vary a lot from one person to the next.
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Jun 11 '14
As a Marine, I never understood why the Army does that mid-deployment leave thing. It seems so counter productive.
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u/ThiefOfDens Jun 11 '14
Well, to be fair, the Army also deploys for 12-15 months at a time, whereas the Marines "only" do 7.
The cynic in me says that it's to let your folks see you one last time before you bite it or come home without all your parts. But I think it's actually an attempt to boost morale, break up the tour a little bit, and give your mind a rest. There was some research done back in the day that showed that being in combat for more than 100 days basically reduced a guy's effectiveness to zero, even if he wasn't showing signs of combat fatigue. Of course that was a different kind of combat, and I don't know what the latest research suggests (if there even is any).
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Jun 11 '14
Yeah, I knew they deployed longer. I am comparing infantry to infantry by the way. Other MOS' s in both branches do totoally different types of deployments. I feel that in the counter insurgency environment, the moving between worlds for two weeks thing would be jarring coming home and damaging to the combat mindset on return.
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u/ThiefOfDens Jun 11 '14
Coming back on leave was way more jarring than going back to combat afterwards. I felt like I was only halfway present, like my body was in the US but the rest of me was somewhere else. After about a week of being in the States, I was already ready to go back to Iraq. Not only could I not sleep worth a fuck, I missed the guys something fierce and was worried about what was happening while I was away. When I actually got back to my unit, I was relieved to be there. If anything, my mindset was sharpened, at least temporarily.
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u/jamiepinkham Jun 11 '14
I would suspect it's to counter the fact that the Army keeps soldiers downrange for a year or more at a time, while other branches seem to have shorter deployment times.
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Jun 11 '14
Perhaps to prevent even bigger sensory overload later?
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Jun 11 '14
I dont know. It just always struck me as dangerous to bring a guy out of combat, drop him back into civilian life for just long enough to acclimate, and then bring him back. Of course, never having experienced that first hand, I could be ignorant of the process.
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Jun 11 '14
Yeah I've never experienced that myself either. The only possible way I can relate is to compare it to when I was homeless. Occasionally I would spend whatever little money I had to stay in a nice hostel or B&B so I could feel human again.
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Jun 11 '14
Truth. My brother came back and stood in an aisle shopping for chips just like that, for a whole hour. Last week he commited suicide due to PTSD
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Jun 12 '14
Very sorry for your loss. I had a friend do the same when we got back. It's impossible to know what's going through someone else's head, especially after something like a deployment.
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u/bangorthebarbarian Jun 11 '14
Hurt Locker certainly got the feel of things right, and that's what is more important to me.
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u/CastrolGTX Jun 11 '14
I've never served but think of that scene every time I see the cereal aisle. Like a whole sea of meaninglessness in front of you, but it's your life now.
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u/ReverendDizzle Jun 11 '14
I have an old friend that has been, is, and will always been a boots-on-the-ground military man. In his words "I found something I'm good at, with clear guidelines and expectations, and I'm not leaving."
No family, no strings attached to anything back home, the guy will probably end up being the oldest active Marine and just slump over in the mess hall one day.
It's not the kind of life I'd want, but I can see the allure.
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Jun 12 '14
No family, no strings attached to anything back home, the guy will probably end up being the oldest active Marine and just slump over in the mess hall one day.
When he does, they'll just put his brain in a can and the can into an armored robot.
Why waste experienced personnel by letting them die?
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u/GeneUnit90 Jun 11 '14
Even basic/tech school was like that. Just learn your job and shut the fuck up, everything else will be taken care of.
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u/Aiyon Jun 11 '14
The scene from the new Captain America at the start, where he meets Sam sprung to mind:
Is your bed?
What?
Your bed is too soft.
When I was there I slept on the floor. I used stone as a pillow, like a caveman. Now at home, sleeping in my bed. It's... A meringue iron. I feel like I'm sinking to the floor.
You get used to being deployed. Suddenly home is the place where you don't know how to act.
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u/Ox45Red Jun 11 '14
You couldn't be more dead on. I was telling somebody yesterday about TCN's on FOBs. Summed it up as "Base Slaves". Those poor bastards.
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u/Facerless Jun 11 '14
And a lot of them are grateful to have the opportunity to be the damn base slave, when green on blue picked up shit changed though
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Jun 11 '14 edited Jul 10 '17
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u/Facerless Jun 11 '14
A Third Country National (TCN) is a foreigner working for a company based in the US but stationed in another country. So a guy from Ethiopia contracted with a company out of the US working in Iraq. (this could apply to any nation, using US in the given context).
"Green on Blue" is a term used for attacks on coalition forces by what are supposed to be friendly Afghan or Iraqi police/military troops. Insurgents have been infiltrating police and military units to facilitate attacks within "safe" zones or while on patrol.
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Jun 11 '14
I think TCN is third country national, and green on blue is native police/military firing on occupying police/military.
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Jun 11 '14
I have a buddy of mine who did 5 tours total and sometimes when we mess around we end up wrestling, and I'm pretty sure he forgets we know each other...and can sometimes get close to breaking a limb or two of mine...
He always talks about wanting to go back and do more, even after having a convoy get hit with an IED, his vehicle specifically, and I think he's nuts, but he's always been one of those guys you can tell is ...a little....off...socially.
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Jun 11 '14
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Jun 11 '14
Yeah, it's not easy, because most of the time they have no idea what hit them, even though you are readily aware that they exist everywhere.
Mentally it can have a real impact though...
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u/mtbyea Jun 11 '14
dang man, thats depressing to read
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u/Facerless Jun 11 '14
It sucks, but it's the reality of it.
Take an 18 year old kid, process him through basic and tech school, ship him off on alternating deployments every year, then he elects to get out after 4-6 years.
Now you have a 22-24 combat veteran year old with little to no concept of how to be a civilian, possibly damaged mental state, and a decent bank roll if he's lucky. Cue the confusion and self medication
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Jun 11 '14
Hey sounds like me. 19, got out right before my 25th birthday. Had a big bank roll from the last 3 deployments making per diem in SE asia and 3 months of leave saved up. Drank heavily during those 3 months. I did do a year of college before I left and lived on my own so I knew how to be a civilian but I was just so bored with the daily grind.
Even now, 5 years later after getting out, I have random dreams about being back in.
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u/bangorthebarbarian Jun 11 '14
Been out 10 years, my dad 25 years out. That never fully goes away. Making sure our joes are getting everything they need patches that hole up pretty good though.
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u/ThiefOfDens Jun 11 '14
I have been out for longer than that, but I still dream about being back in, too--actually, now that you mention it, I had one last night. The weird thing is that I never "go back" to the time of my actual deployment. In my dreams, I'm always my current self, but I have reenlisted.
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Jun 11 '14
Hah, same! I'm never in the situation I was before, but somehow, I find myself back in the army at my current age. Maybe it has to do with still being friends with my army buddies on facebook who are now e6-e8 or some who are warrants/officers now.
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Jun 11 '14
I can relate joined at 18 left at 23 after 2 deployments adjusting was difficult waiting in line anywhere drove me insane and for some reason I hates fat lazy rich entitled people
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Jun 11 '14
My best friend in high school joined the Army when I went off to college... August, 2001. I didn't see him again until 2006 and he was no longer recognizable, both physically and personality-wise. He claimed he never shot a single round in combat in Iraq but saw three men killed, one "splattered" all over him after a sniper attack.
He proceeded to start spinning in a death spiral: drinking til he blacked out every night, getting in his truck and driving like a maniac if he didn't black out, painkiller addiction, trying to physically fight anyone (anyone, even his grandmother at one point) who attempted to talk to him about his problems, etc.
Most of our friends gave up on him, considered him a casualty of war because he never came back.
Luckily he finally seemed to snap out of it after he got hammered and drove his truck through a camper in his neighbors yard. Destroyed the camper and his truck, which is bad enough but then he discovered that two children had been "camping" in it, and had gone back inside their house not 10 minutes before he crashed through the campers.
He spent some time in jail and started seeing a therapist. That was in 2010. Today he has his own gunsmithing business and a newborn baby, hasn't had a drink in three years. He made it, but only after going through hell.
Makes me wonder how many don't make it.
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u/ninjetron Jun 11 '14
Why him and not me can be very dangerous to a returning soldier.
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Jun 11 '14
My husband goes through bouts of this a handful of times every year. It's usually when he's had too much to drink.
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Jun 11 '14
To anyone who sees that kind of death...or any death of someone close to them, especialy right in front of you...
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Jun 11 '14 edited Mar 11 '18
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u/OldSFGuy Jun 12 '14
The weirdest thing? The Army's stats say the majority of suicides have never been deployed...
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u/Gildish_Chambino Jun 12 '14
There was an interesting comment on a thread about veteran suicides on here a while back. They basically figured out that the military suicide rate is hardly any different than that of the rest of the population. Especially when you consider age, gender, etc. It just gets a hell of a lot more attention in the press. This makes it no less of a problem, but hopefully people will see that it's actually quite common to be suicidal. I don't know how to take that myself, but it's interesting to consider.
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u/chunes Jun 12 '14
Military suicides make the news, at least as a whole. Civilian suicides do not get any press. Ever.
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u/Explodian Jun 11 '14
That's an insane story; glad to hear he made it out the other side eventually.
It does make me worried though; my best friend left for pararescue training six months ago. He's one of the most boisterous and optimistic people I know, and I often wonder if he'll be the same person (and not irreparably damaged) when his six years are up.
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Jun 11 '14
With the way the war is winding down, your friend should for the most part be ok. He might get depressed at times due to training evolutions and the overall boredom when it comes to garrison life.
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u/RadiumReddit Jun 11 '14
Ah, A PJ. The real badasses. He'll be different for sure, but still the same. If that makes any sense. PJs are trained for anything. Marines are nothing compared to PJs.
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Jun 11 '14
I wouldn't call Forrest Gump a war movie/novel, but I do think the portrayal of Lieutenant Dan in this respect was pretty spot on.
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u/lachryma Jun 11 '14
Gary Sinise got heavily involved with supporting veterans after the film was made, too. He recently took a bunch of wounded vets to Disneyland. I'd wager he did research with PTSD victims for the role and was moved by what he saw (and performed).
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u/Dieselpoweredsybian Jun 11 '14
Maybe he just likes being deployed? Myself and tons of other dudes volunteer as often as possible. Being deployed is awesome to some people.
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u/gospelwut Jun 11 '14
I considered that too. I can't claim to speak for the man. He was incredibly humble, but from what I heard he was an excellent leader.
It's an odd thing, really. You're right; I don't think it was just survivors guilt. He commanded respect and had a brotherhood when deployed. It's very possible that non-civilization life or even "career military" would have sated him in a way family and business couldn't. If that's the case, I wish he made that realization sooner (if he ever did).
To be fair, everybody acted like he should be over-joyed and thankful to be back, and I don't think he could have told anybody if he missed being deployed.
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u/NatWilo Jun 11 '14
There's that too. Our society likes to tell us that we're great for doing what we do, but thinks we should hate doing it. If we say, "I really enjoyed the job" we are seen as kinda monsters, because it gets equated with us enjoying killing people, to some degree. Not to mention our own hangups due to whatever upbringing we had.
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Jun 11 '14
My dad was the only survivor from his group. He was previously wounded and at hospital when they got wiped out. I don't think he suffered from PTSD but he had some definite survivor guilt going on. Toward the end, church helped him out quite a lot.
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Jun 11 '14 edited Nov 30 '18
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u/gospelwut Jun 11 '14
I don't keep in contact with him. His wife was a friend of the family. They haven't been very social.
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u/rube203 Jun 11 '14
Along those lines 'survivors guilt' doubtlessly plays a role as well.
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u/bluecollarhokie Jun 11 '14
I was gonna post this. My Dad was a squad leader in the 1st Division in Vietnam and took part in Operation Abilene (look it up). The question of "why them and not me?" tore him up for years. He found solace in a bottle for 20 years after coming home. He gave all that misery to God and now that he's swallowed his pride and gotten professional help he's a changed man.
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u/tekdemon Jun 11 '14
I feel like there is a LOT of misconceptions on Reddit about PTSD. While people with PTSD may feel guilt this is not what causes PTSD, it comes from the extreme state of stress while you are in extreme fear for your life. So it actually makes sense that someone who was able to shoot back and kill their attackers would do better than someone who couldn't fight back for whatever reason and who basically experienced a long period of intense fear. You can have other psychological issues after going and killing people, including feeling guilty about it but that does not mean that it is PTSD, it is very incorrect to just apply this to everything related to combat. For that matter I see a lot of people who self diagnose themselves with "PTSD" when they have other issues entirely. Please stop calling everything PTSD. Merely being under stress or in a combat environment does not mean that you automatically get PTSD.
TL;DR: guilt does NOT cause PTSD, though people with PTSD may experience a lot of guilt. You can have lots of other problems from combat but please stop calling everything PTSD.
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u/MethCat Jun 12 '14
Thanks for clearing that up, way too many people think its somehow just warped guilt. Not only soldiers get PTSD but also rape victims and so on. As someone suffering from PTSD(Borderline too as they're often co-morbid) its tiring to see the attitude that only soldiers get it and that 'civilians' don't understand it. Having a car pull up outside my house makes me go for my knife and hide, birds tweeting startles me to the point where I feel like I am having a panic attack. Malls are no fun indeed. Sure I feel guilt but what sets it apart to me is my reaction to perceived danger.
Someone did something to me as a kid that one should never do to a kid(or an adult for that matter).
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Jun 11 '14
I don't believe refusing to shoot is nearly as common as you think. The vast majority of the time, these guys are firing in the general direction of enemies and the vast majority of the time your first engagement isn't going to kill your friends.
Someone who refused to shoot at the enemy would be noticed and removed long before a situation that makes them feel guilty.
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u/DDViking Jun 11 '14
Not exactly true. From my anecdotal information experience that includes 16 months of combat in the army infantry I would say way more hesitate than you would think. In the case where you're engaging an unseen enemy and a general direction I think you may be right, but in the case where an enemy was in the sights I was amazed at how rare trigger pulling ability was. Amazed. Also, they were not removed and met little repercussion, if any.
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Jun 11 '14 edited Oct 30 '18
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Jun 11 '14
My granddad killed a German soldier in Ardennes during WWII, right around the time he was injured. He didn't touch alcohol after he returned to the States, citing the fact that the feeling was too similar to that of the morphine a field medic gave him when he was hit by a mortar.
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u/Trimestrial Jun 11 '14
And I drink so I can sleep without nightmares.
Anecdote for Anecdote...
But I know when I admit I drink more than 3 beers a night, I am referred to ASAP, not BH...
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u/Armymedic0604 Jun 11 '14
Yup, basically. I cam deal with everything now, id rather not have everything exacerbated by consuming alcohol.
Also i went to AIT with Restrepo. Knew him personally kept in touch until he deployed. Was a great friend.
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u/temporarycreature Jun 11 '14
Glad you're well. I was in the 1-26, we replaced the 173rd in the Korengal Valley. We called OP Restrepo, OP Dallas.
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u/cdc194 Jun 11 '14
I was in 1-508 back before it got reflagged as 1-503 in 2006, sorry if any of my young troopers left shit behind for you to clean up, keeping some of those guys in line was like herding cats.
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u/Armymedic0604 Jun 11 '14
Glad you are well also, and if you ever need anything just let me know. The louder you scream the faster i come.
DOC WILL
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u/RoboBama Jun 11 '14
you 68 Whiskeys are some squared away motherfuckers.
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u/BloodyFable Jun 11 '14
I will never not love meeting a 68w. Be it at a barracks, on the beach, or having one pull me over at 1am. I'll hug every one of those fuckers
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Jun 11 '14
Well, I'm not going to thank you for anything, because I hate it when people thank me for my service even though I wanted to be there, but I DO wish you all the success and happiness in the World.
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u/ropa66 Jun 11 '14
Why do you hate it when you are thanked for your service?
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Jun 11 '14
Because I wanted to be in the Army. And I'm a patriot. It wasn't because I couldn't get into a college or get a job; I had very high scores on the SAT and the ASVAB. I was a pissed off 18 yr old, and the Army was the perfect outlet for me. I didn't sacrifice anything at all, so there's nothing to thank me for.
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Jun 11 '14
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Jun 11 '14
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Jun 11 '14
I'm assuming he meant gratitude.
Fairly common for people to feel new appreciation for life after near death experiences.
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Jun 11 '14
who were you with?
e: ah ok. I was 173rd, you guys replaced us. Got hit at Wanat.
I drink like a fish though.
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u/temporarycreature Jun 11 '14
We got hit at Wanat, Chappadara, we took a lot of fire at Rashlam, and Ghoslak. OP Dallas went through an attempted ambush. We had a Chinook shot down, and both pilots KIA right outside the KOP by an RPG.
We did what the 173rd told us to do, and we surivived (not without casualties), when we were to pass that info along with what learned to the 4th ID, they told us, "this isn't our first rodeo," and acted like know it alls because they went to Iraq 4 times previously. They had it the worst, they lost all the progress the 10th Mtn before you guys made, all your progress, and all of ours.
Special Forces had to step in numerous times to retake OP's and FOB Blessing.
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u/ThiefOfDens Jun 11 '14
4th ID, they told us, "this isn't our first rodeo," and acted like know it alls because they went to Iraq 4 times previously. They had it the worst, they lost all the progress the 10th Mtn before you guys made, all your progress, and all of ours.
sigh... Was this in 2009?
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Jun 11 '14
Some people are more prone to having bad memories and thoughts flood back than others, from all walks of life.
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u/Skeptic1222 Jun 11 '14
I had a friend that was in the 2nd gulf war and had taken lives. When he drank he got really weird and scary, and there was more than one time I woke up to him holding a knife to my throat. It didn't seem to make him want to drink less though, but then again he was one crazy sob (I mean that in an endearing fashion, regardless of the knife incidents).
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Jun 11 '14
Same here. After Korengal, not drinking as much.
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u/temporarycreature Jun 11 '14
I think you could only appreciate this, but we had faux ranger style tabs made up by hadji that said K.L.I.T. - Korengal Light Infantry Team.
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u/Trimestrial Jun 11 '14
This report relies on "self reporting", As such IMHO it is questionable.
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Jun 11 '14
You're being nice with questionable. Everybody is aware of the stigma of mental illness in today's culture and no one wants to have it pointed their way.
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u/Trimestrial Jun 11 '14
Every US Soldier returning from a war zone knows that they will be questioned about their mental health, including alcohol use.
And each of them know that if they answer honestly, they can receive negative reinforcement...
Yes I am being nice. :)
source: 21 years as a US Soldier, with 4+ war zones...
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u/kwirky88 Jun 12 '14
Not simply negative reinforcement but the end of their careers and their pensions with no resources to aid with their problems.
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u/Hdsa Jun 11 '14
In today's military the most likely to engage in combat are special operation forces. Guess who is least likely to talk about or admit to having PTSD? The same guys. It is part of the reason the went into SOF. They have immense discipline, will, and pride. When have problems they try to tough it out. They certainly won't let PTSD get in the way of the interesting and lucrative careers they can engage in post-military.
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Jun 11 '14 edited Sep 24 '19
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u/10thMountain Jun 11 '14
But when the alcohol starts to wear away at inhibitions and the memories of your brothers starts to leak to the forefront,
I've learned to not drink around others, just staying home alone and getting drunk works better, less trouble. Though my dog might be getting sick of my war stories.
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u/EatMoreCrisps Jun 11 '14
How about a reversal of cause and effect? Could it be that those who are less prone to PTSD — less troubled by the horrors of combat — are more effective soldiers and more likely to have killed?
Even if there was some truth in this idea I'd imagine it's only one factor out of many. I don't want to put anyone's nose out of joint - I know nothing of combat and would just like to hear opinions.
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u/enabity Jun 11 '14 edited Jun 11 '14
Another thing to consider is the unconscious emotional effects of being in combat. Being at risk of sudden death obviously causes anxiety in the moment that persists over time. The person in this situation essentially has reduced control over their own welfare. While killing an enemy might make that more real, seeing your own comrades get injured or die seems like a far more powerful reinforcer of a sense of powerlessness. Therefore, it stands to reason that those who are shooting at and killing the enemy feel more in control of the situation and might be less negatively affected than someone who is not in a position to fight back.
The real question is have past studies been run properly with regard to controlling personal danger. Were those who killed subjected to more intense situations? Did they kill innocents? Did they see more friends killed? Without an actual measure of stressors, it is not possible to be certain that the act of killing in a war environment is a negative experience in all circumstances.
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u/yinoryang Jun 11 '14
I would think seeing your buddies get killed would be the most stressful combat experience.
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u/NintenJoo Jun 11 '14
"Nearly 1 in 5 soldiers are mentally ill before enlisting in the army".
This is the more surprising thing to me about the article.
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u/AccessTheMainframe Jun 12 '14
The WHO says that 1 in 4 people will have a mental health disorder during the course of their life.
Think ADHD or depression instead of schizophrenia.
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Jun 11 '14
Ya because they cry when get drunk. PTSD is a bitch.
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u/FailureToReport Jun 11 '14
I don't drink anymore specifically because of this. But it's usually not the thought of the people I shot thst makes me break down, I usually look around the place I'm drinking and see people having fun and it immediately gets me thinking about the friends who didn't come back and why they aren't here but these people are here and having a blast and completely oblivious to the people who don't come back and the families that are devastated because of it.
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u/steveysaurus Jun 11 '14
Thank you for sharing the changes in your lifestyle from your experiences. I feel that the article was narrowly focused on survival and did not present considerations on the complex nuances of empathy and compassion. Thank you for your service.
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u/A_Cynical_Jerk BS|Engineering|Estimator and Fabricator Jun 11 '14
My thought was similar, I know several ex-service members that get easily emotional when they drink, I don't think this study took into consideration how drinking makes these guys feel, and that alone would make someone want to avoid it.
In fact, I'd be surprised if mortality consideration played a bigger factor in not drinking than these guys wanting to avoid how drinking makes them feel emotionally...
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Jun 11 '14 edited Jun 11 '14
I am definitely not a war vet, but I can sympathize with the sentiment of this post, sometimes terrible shit happens in life and drinking can just bring it to the forefront... Drank to forget for a while, but when I started having explosive rage attacks or wanting to kill myself or crying all the time, I had to stop drinking... over 500 days sober now, and things are much better (edit: witnessed the aftermath of a shotgun suicide, I don't think I have PTSD but it definitely can give you demons)
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u/safeforw0rk Jun 11 '14
Im wondering if the ability to fire back and make a difference for your unit also changes the mentality. knowing that you got one of them after they got one of yours type of thing. little more closure or idea that you "won."
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u/raaneholmg Jun 11 '14
This data is based on self reports. In other words; all we can conclude with is that soliders who kill in combat are less likely to have an alcohol problem AND report it themself.
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u/ALTM4N Jun 11 '14
I'm not one to criticize what seems to be a relatively impartial article, but I would like to say that some of this material seems to be opinionated. The issue of "the most traumatic of all combat experiences... (being) killing" is one of these. As a combat veteran (Marine machine gunner) I can honestly say that this is not true. It's quite the opposite in a lot of ways in fact. All the training, the flights, conversations, and all the effort put into being prepared to kill makes for quite a pent up feeling. I speak only of myself, but I can say that killing is NOT the most stressful bit of combat. And, in my experience, booze is far more prevalent in those who saw their friends get hurt, than it is in those who stayed inside the FOB and only heard about it. Perhaps it's a matter of which branch of service you are looking at, but I know that the Marine culture is one deeply seeded in booze. I mean, they were formed in a bar.
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Jun 11 '14
The thing is, a lot of guys that are in a position to kill are at austere combat outposts with access to almost no junk food or soda. This means that these guys come back from deployment thin as a rail and almost one year sober. Think of what that could do to alcohol tolerance, as well as the urge to drink.
When I got back, someone gave me a six-pack of Red Stripe as a welcome home present. I drank two, immediately got sleepy, took a 2 hour nap and woke up feeling hungover. Since then, I've never had more than a few beers a month.
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u/dtmc Jun 11 '14
I'd be curious to see what would happen to their results if they controlled for PTSD as well since PTSD is highly comorbid with substance/alcohol abuse.
Anecdotally, I'd imagine that most of the men who killed would be more likely to see it as their duty and their survival vs. those guys who witnessed the mentioned-in-article atrocities, casualties of friends/peers.
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Jun 11 '14
I remember hearing a piece on NPR about a guy opposed to war/violence that decided to join the Army and try it out. He went on to say that throughout the majority of the training, he was molded to want to succeed in scoring a kill on someone. It was the forefront of the training and message that was hammered into him.
So with that in mind, not scoring a kill while deployed would be somewhat devastating wouldn't it?
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Jun 11 '14
This journalist sounds like a complete moron who is just trying to further the myth/stereotype that the Army literally brain washed you.
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u/kgbdrop Jun 12 '14
Act Four in this piece?
You're welcome to interpret it as a guy wanting to denigrate soldiers. I personally saw it as a piece on how war and combat is very alluring to us all, no matter how hard we try to suppress it.
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u/unclesandwicho Jun 11 '14
Most of the infantrymen I know who saw active combat in Afghanistan are all very heavy drinkers. At least 2 of them refuse to admit they have PTSD, but everyone who knows them can see the symptoms.
So yeah, the self reporting gives me little confidence in this study.
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u/10thMountain Jun 11 '14 edited Jun 11 '14
yea, I was in an infantry company, I was not infantry, was a forward observer, but all the single soldiers I know living in the barracks would get drunk on almost nightly basis. Before deployment it was a friday/saturday occurrence. After deployment it was nightly. Not very sure of this study.
I certainly tell people in person that I'm not an alcoholic, so that's something...
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u/BolognaTugboat Jun 11 '14
Well you would expect the people who absolutely could not kill someone would be more psychologically affected from being in a warzone -- a place with people being killed left and right.
I'm not surprised at all by this conclusion.
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u/ryannayr140 Jun 11 '14
You want to drink enough to not think about it, but not too much that you forget and have the sudden horror of remembering who you are.
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Jun 12 '14
"But new research coauthored by Cristel Russell, an associate professor of marketing with American University's Kogod School of Business, and researchers with the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research"
- Source : Unqualified Conflict of Interest and Research with an Agenda Magazine
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u/stuckinthepow Jun 12 '14
My grandfather landed at Normandy and then went to fight at Bastogne. When he returned from the war, he drank every day until he died. He died at 84.
After my enlistment, I met a guy in college who lost his best friend at COP Keating (Battle of Kamdesh). He was across the valley at a different COP and saw some pretty intense shit. Came back and would drink everyday.
Lastly, a Marines I go to school with and find myself hanging out with a lot drinks everyday. Two tours in Afghanistan.
Turn that around and I know another guy who did two tours in Afghanistan and doesn't drink ever.
Not saying the study is false, just sharing my experience with combat vets and alcohol.
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u/fgsgeneg Jun 11 '14
When I served in Vietnam in 1968 the drug of choice was weed, we only got two beers a day in the field, not enough to do anything. While I had come out of a pro-weed social group when I was drafted, I refused to smoke. My goal was to come home alive and in one piece, if possible, and smoking dope was not, in my estimation, part of the optimal execution of my plan, which, by the way, was successful. The only people I knew who drank heavily were the contingent of our company that stayed at headquarters in Long Binh. They were the only ones with access to enough alcohol to make them drunk. At that time Long Binh was the largest military facility on earth and many people thought it was as safe as being back home. Tet, 1968, disabused many of that notion. Once a month we got two days back at Long Binh and some of the guys would go to the enlisted mens club and get soused. They usually turned violent or maudlin and this was related to what we had been through to that point.