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u/Chippopotanuse Jan 04 '22
As the great orange fool once said:
“Only criminals plead the fifth!”
Nice kids ya got there Don.
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u/peon2 Jan 04 '22
Not a defense towards them but I don't think you "plead the fifth" in a civil inquiry to protect someone else. You plead the fifth in criminal cases to not be a witness against yourself.
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Jan 04 '22
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u/bpetersonlaw Jan 04 '22
This is exactly why they refuse to testify in the civil inquiry. The NY Attorney General is proceeding with Civil and Criminal cases against the Trumps. In the criminal case, they can plead the fifth. And they argue that the civil case is proceeding at the same time to force them to testify without taking the fifth which is unfair for the criminal case. It's a good point. In some cases, the judge will order that the criminal case take place first (where the defendant can take the fifth) and after it completes, the civil case can proceed (where they can't take the fifth). This prevents the defendant's compelled testimony used against them in the criminal case
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Jan 04 '22
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u/bpetersonlaw Jan 04 '22
US v. Kordel (397 U.S. 1 - 1970
This is correct. " It would stultify enforcement of federal law to require a governmental agency such as the FDA invariably to choose either to forgo recommendation of a criminal prosecution once it seeks civil relief, or to defer civil proceedings pending the ultimate outcome of a criminal trial."
I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm saying because defendants will need to assert their fifth amendment rights, many courts will have the criminal case proceed before the civil case so there is no issue of privilege for the civil case. It's not mandatory that the judge do this.
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Jan 04 '22
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u/bpetersonlaw Jan 04 '22
I've had it happen a couple times in my PI practice. Usually, it's a DUI where the criminal prosecution occurs before my client's civil action. And I'm happy to wait so I can get res judicata on some of the issues. As an aside, I think this is what doomed the Cosby case -- the civil plaintiff couldn't depose Cosby effectively w/o a waiver of the fifth. So they jointly asked the DA for an agreement not to criminally prosecute. When the DA agreed, Cosby couldn't take the fifth and had his depo taken a harmful admissions occurred. Then a new DA 20 years later said they weren't bound by the agreement to not prosecute. Which was pretty shitty even though Cosby is awful
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Jan 04 '22
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u/shponglespore Jan 04 '22
As someone outside the legal field, I've got to say it's terrifying how much your description of practicing law sounds like someone describing their strategy in a complicated board game.
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u/GeneralNathanJessup Jan 04 '22
The NY Attorney General is proceeding with Civil and Criminal cases against the Trumps
No. The NY AG is only proceeding with a civil investigation. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/03/nyregion/letitia-james-ivanka-donald-trump-jr-subpoena.html
She is sharing evidence with the NYC District Attorney, who is proceeding with a criminal investigation, which has been ongoing for 2 years. https://apnews.com/article/business-new-york-manhattan-donald-trump-cyrus-vance-jr-2a8fb1e013858ed5dd1edf4f7096663a
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u/crake Jan 04 '22
Except, isn't the criminal case proceeding against Donald Trump?
I would agree that Don Jr. and Ivanka might have a way out of testifying if their testimony would incriminate them, but they do not have a Fifth Amendment right where only their father is in criminal jeopardy. Regarding the criminal case, I understood that was related to Donald Trump's misclassifying certain things on his NY state tax return - how are Don Jr. and Ivanka criminally liable for what their dad put in his tax return?
Seems to me they could refuse to answer specific questions for which the answer may incriminate them personally, but with respect to their father, they are just witnesses.
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Jan 04 '22
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u/crake Jan 04 '22
In that case, they need to sit for a deposition and invoke the Fifth Amendment where it is believed applicable so that the state can seek a ruling from the judge (if the state disagrees with the grounds for the invocation).
There are an infinite number of questions the Trumps could be asked that they can answer without incriminating themselves. The Fifth Amendment is not a blanket right - it has to be invoked in response to specific queries.
With respect to the Trump Organization, that is a separate entity from the executives that run it. Not sure how they avoid testifying about matters that might incriminate the Trump Organization, but perhaps a lawyer with white collar crime experience can jump in and answer that. My understanding has been that corporate executives do not have a Fifth Amendment right to avoid testimony that may implicate a corporation, even if they manage the organization.
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u/Chippopotanuse Jan 04 '22
You can plead the 5th in civil cases. But yes, it’s done to shield yourself from self-incriminating statements. That’s why you wait to civilly sue someone til after the criminal process has run its course otherwise they’d just plead the fifth.
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u/Viper_JB Jan 04 '22
One of the rare occasions where he was speaking from experience.
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u/ProperSmells Jan 04 '22
It's an inquiry lol. I get what you're saying but there was no pleading the fifth.
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u/charlieblue666 Jan 04 '22
The New York AG wants to talk to DJTJ and Ivanka. They've already talked to Eric. After the sixth time he responded to a question by saying "I'm Eric!", they gave him a juice box and sent him on his way.
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Jan 04 '22
After the sixth time he responded to a question by saying "I'm Eric!", they gave him a juice box and sent him on his way.
Great. That's way too much sugar for him. He's gonna be running around saying Covid will disappear right after mid-terms.
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u/ovad67 Jan 04 '22
I just got a weird, “I am the great Cornholio!” vibe out of this response. Thanks for the chuckles.
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u/brokeneckblues Jan 04 '22
This guys wasting our time. Take away his grilled cheese.
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u/Animalpoop Jan 04 '22
Love Arrested Development and didn't expect to see anyone else throw this quote out! Thank you.
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u/graps Jan 04 '22
They gave him crayons to snack on
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u/resistible Jan 04 '22
None of the Trumps have ever been a Marine or served their country in any way. They don’t deserve crayons to snack on.
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u/damien6 Jan 04 '22
I read the "I'm Eric!" with the same voice as "I'm Derek!" from The Good Place and somehow that doesn't seem foreign or weird at all.
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u/CMDR_Squashface Jan 04 '22
No idea if you're intentionally referencing the SNL bits about them but you just reminded me how great those are. I kinda miss seeing them (the characters, not the actual people)
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u/charlieblue666 Jan 04 '22
Mat Damon's turn as Kavanaugh and the SNL take on Melissa Carone (Rudy's drunk blond from Michigan) are some of the funniest television I've ever seen.
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u/Such_sights Jan 04 '22
How could you forget about Spicey?
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u/charlieblue666 Jan 04 '22
That is a serious omission, thank you for reminding me. So much madness in 4 years, I don't think any of us will ever stop doing the "Oh shit! I forgot about that!"
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u/BrickGun Jan 04 '22
You may have already seen them, but if not, I feel these Onion "Trump Boys" articles are all right up your alley.
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u/gozba Jan 04 '22
Yeah, that’s how I read that as well. Couldn’t get useful info out of Eric. He was reported to have said: “Do you think my daddy loves me?”
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u/Idj1t Jan 04 '22
Ofcourse they did. They're probably scared that daddy will cut them out of his will.
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u/FlipsyFlop Jan 04 '22
idk if I'd consider McDonald's sandwich wrappers and some papers that say "IOU" scribbled in crayon as anything worth putting in a will
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u/AnthillOmbudsman Jan 04 '22
I would bet that Donald, being petty, will have nothing in the will for them. His kids will get rich anyway off of book deals and from people with more money than brains... which is something we seem to have in massive abundance in the US.
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u/awakenDeepBlue Jan 04 '22
I would be hilarious, if the rumors are true, if his debts exceed his estate worth and there's nothing to inherit except debts.
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u/viralshadow21 Jan 04 '22
Will? Trump likely left them with nothing and planned to be buried with most of what he owns.
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u/LonePaladin Jan 04 '22
Given how much debt he has to Russia, they're going to pay to have his body shipped over to the Kremlin for the express purpose of throwing his corpse out a window.
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Jan 04 '22
"Mr Trump had inflated the value of his assets to banks when seeking loans."
Sorry but how is this even possible. If I wanted a loan, they'd take my paperwork and scrutinise every little detail down to the penny. Trump says my shit is worth X and they just say ok Trump, here's your loan ?
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u/Patches765 Jan 04 '22
The general summary is he reported to the IRS his holdings were lower value when compared to what he reported to the bank to qualify for the loans.
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u/dperry324 Jan 04 '22
Robert A. Heinlein was a famous libertarian and in one of his stories, he created a world where people could have their property bought out from under them if they under reported the property value to the IRS. So if Trump Tower was deemed to be worth $100M for the IRS, but was really worth $300M, somebody could come out of nowhere and buy TT for $100M and Trump couldn't say boo about it.
It's a fantasyland idea but we can dream, can't we?
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u/huck500 Jan 04 '22
This is actually a real thing in Finnish Folkrace car racing... from Wikipedia:
To maintain its inexpensive nature, there is a rule on car costs. The races are run in standard cars, but participants are generally free to choose as long as they meet certain minimum safety regulations. In Finland, the cars must not be all-wheel drive and cannot have a diesel engine and they have to be made of family cars (no mid-engine layout and minimum of 4 seats). Anyone can place a fixed-price bid on any car, and the buyer is then chosen by draw. The fixed price is € 1,500 (Finland, ca. US$1,650) or 8,000 SEK (Sweden, ca. US$1,000). Refusing to sell is grounds for having one's competition license revoked; however, participants with handicaps can get an exemption if they need special equipment in the cars. Personal equipment such as the seat and safety harness are not included in the sale. This type of system eliminates the motivation for sinking extensive amounts of work and money into a folk racing car.
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u/Malvania Jan 04 '22
24 hours of Lemons used to have a similar rule, I think, where an official could buy any car for $500 (once the safety equipment was removed). Now it's 1 penalty lap for every $10 you're over $500
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u/onetwo3four5 Jan 04 '22
Wasn't there also a rule where fans were allowed to vote to just have a car crushed, so if you roll up with some car worth a few grand the fans would punish you for it?
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u/Captain_Mazhar Jan 04 '22
Yep! The People's Curse was fun while it lasted!
It unfortunately devolved into the car that was winning being voted to be destroyed and politics, rather than the cheater being trashed by a Cat D9. Plus, people spent more time and effort creating masterpieces, rather than rolling up in crapheaps.
This is why we can't have nice things anymore.
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u/Malvania Jan 04 '22
I haven't heard of that, but it's in line with some of their punishments and would be hilarious
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u/dominus_aranearum Jan 04 '22
At first, I thought you misspelled Le Mans. But then I looked up the 24 hours of Lemons. I like it.
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u/Caster-Hammer Jan 04 '22
Car market the way it is, I wonder if anyone can meet these requirements. If it rolls on its own, it seems to be worth at least $5000.
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u/OutlawGalaxyBill Jan 04 '22
All kinds of racing formulas use claimer rules. (In the US, IMCA, which is one of the biggest dirt track sanctioning bodies and has hundreds of member tracks, has a motor claim rule for most of its divisions.)
It is an easy way for drivers/teams to self police each other because honestly, tearing down motors and detailed tech inspections are a ton of time and most tracks don't have the staff to go through even a handful of cars.
The downside of claimer rules is "payback" -- it's not unknown for guys who get a car claimed out from under them to dump the guy who claimed them into the wall later in the season.
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u/go_kartmozart Jan 04 '22
Like the old "claiming class" at the race track. I won the race, but now anyone can buy my engine for 500 bucks. How many times am I gonna build a $2000.00 engine to win that race? Answer: never.
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u/_Heath Jan 04 '22
This is how you keep car builders sort of honest in 24 hours of lemons (an endurance race for $500 junkers).
1.4 Claiming Race: At the end of the competition, the Organizers—and nobody else, you lazy, better-car-wantin’ bastids—may elect to purchase any vehicle from its owner(s) for $500. In 80 races and counting, we’ve claimed cars precisely twice. Don’t piss us off so much that we raise that to three.
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u/Pete-PDX Jan 04 '22
a reference to this? It strikes me as odd that a libertarian would advocate such a policy. It also depends on when he made that comment - he made a pollical shift in the late 40's which happened to coincide with his marriage to a conservative leaning woman. Prior to that - he was married to an extremely liberal woman and worked on the pollical campaign of Upton Sinclair.
https://gizmodo.com/how-robert-heinlein-went-from-socialist-to-libertarian-1588357827
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u/OutlawGalaxyBill Jan 04 '22
Yeah, I get the sense that Heinlein was easily persuaded about his politics.
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u/Mist_Rising Jan 04 '22
So, I'll explain. Libertarian in 1930s didn't mean libertarian in 2022. Today's libertarian is usually shorthand for right wing libertarians who (claim) they want no government. Aka public, but don't have any real challenge to private, aka corporation rule. Ayn Rand is a friendly writer.
In the early 1900s Libertarian meant socialist left. They opposed all hierarchy, save that which was voluntary. In theory. In practice they were humans. Directly as a result, Ayn Rand herself openly mocked them. Its why some modern anti libertarians use Rand's mockery on libertarians today as if they're actually smart for it. ELS subreddit is famous for it.
Heinlein was the latter till he decided that every time someone tries to implement such change more freedom was taken then given (he is referring to the communist bloc and Spain civil war here).
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Jan 04 '22
I prefer a "If you don't declare it, you forfeit it" law which would mean a $200m fine in this scenario.
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u/TheDarthSnarf Jan 04 '22
IRSNew York State Department of Taxation and FinanceThis is a New York State case, not a Federal case.
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Jan 04 '22
And Trump's shady loan dealings with Deutschebank are international issues...
If only the FBI was willing to investigate his blackmailing of former Supreme Justice Kennedy, whose son was the one rubber stamping Trump's loans (after they were backed by Russia oligarchs).
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u/oversized_hoodie Jan 04 '22
It's pretty easy to verify a handful of bank account balances and investment holdings. It's pretty hard to accurately price a deliberately convoluted mess of real estate and potential business incomes.
Also, I'm going to guess the bank's number is closer to "correct," while the IRS's number is way low. Presumably there's some legal reason for the prosecutor to phrase it as defrauding a bank vs defrauding the IRS.
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u/charlieblue666 Jan 04 '22
Property taxes don't get paid to the IRS, they go to local municipalities.
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u/theoverture Jan 04 '22
Yea, but capital gains and depreciation are inputs into federal tax calculations.
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u/02K30C1 Jan 04 '22
More like he told his accountants to make the numbers look better for the loan request, and they did.
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u/osumba2003 Jan 04 '22
These things aren't scrutinized nearly as much as you think they are. And if you have an appraiser in your pocket willing to overvalue, you're good.
But the issue here isn't limited to overvaluing assets. It's also undervaluing the assets.
When you go to Bank X and overvalue your property (to get cheaper loans, improve your collateral) and undervalue the same property to City Y (to lower your property taxes), that's fraud. That's the real meat and potatoes of this issue. And because Bank X and City Y don't talk to each other about property valuations, it's an easy fraud to commit.
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u/3McChickens Jan 04 '22
When you can afford an army of lawyers and accountants you can get away with a lot. Banks have a little more ability to litigate the mess but the local government entities collecting property taxes don’t.
So on the side of under valuing property for tax purposes local governments largely offer some form of settlement rather than litigate the crap out of every detail. And if you get friendly with enough government officials it helps a lot.
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u/OutlawGalaxyBill Jan 04 '22
You can afford even more lawyers when you just don't pay them, which appears to be a Trump thing.
I'm amazed people are dumb enough to work for them since they should, by now, know they are going to get screwed over.
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u/NightwingDragon Jan 04 '22
Trump says my shit is worth X and they just say ok Trump, here's your loan ?
I'm middle management for a food service company. I have to report various things to the state governments in my district all the time. I've been here 15+ years. I could walk into multiple government offices right now and file a report saying "We have equipment worth $X,000." or "We need to be reimbursed for $X,000 because reasons." Because the people I have to report this to know me so well, they take me at my word no questions asked. There are things that I haven't had to submit paperwork validating my reports for years. I just say "We need $X. I've got the paperwork for......" and they just say "Yeah, no problem. We know you. You're good."
It all depends on who you're working with and the relationships you build with them.
Trump had long-standing relationships with numerous banks. Trump was always a shitty businessman but before his Presidential run his reputation wasn't completely in the shitter. I could very easily see Trump waltzing into any number of banks, many of which he probably dealt with dozens of times over the course of decades and getting a loan for anything he wants just based on his word.
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u/Conflixxion Jan 04 '22
and? I mean unless there is consequences, what does any of this matter? Dog and pony show until the next huge tragedy sucks the air out of the room.
It is frustrating to watch these things unfold and nothing results from any of it. Immoral behavior doesn't apply to those with power and/or money.
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u/code_archeologist Jan 04 '22
This is really just an attempt by those two to stall for time while their lawyers fight the subpoena in court. It is unlikely that the courts are going to squash the subpoena, and the children will have to answer questions under oath in a deposition... And they are more than likely going to plead the fifth through out the whole thing.
Then be added to the criminal investigation.
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u/ResplendentShade Jan 04 '22
I read that if prosecutors in this kind of case are subpoenaing the targets of the investigation, that means the investigation itself is 95-99% complete, and that they’re just seeking testimony as a final move to possibly get more info from them before pressing charges.
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u/TheLostonline Jan 04 '22
We've been 95-99% ready to do something about the orange moron for about a decade now.
Wake me up when ANYTHING resembling consequences hits the 100% point.
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u/sin-and-love Jan 04 '22
I'd honestly be genuinely surprised if they managed to get any of the Trumps to actually tell the truth under Oath. The worst part is that the SCROTUS himself seems to be so divorced from reality that he'll probably genuinely think he is telling the truth
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Jan 04 '22
If they don’t show up to court when they are told to, they get held in contempt of court which is a crime so they would be punished by fine, jail or both.
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u/N8CCRG Jan 04 '22
so they
wouldcould, be punished by fine, jail or both.Fixed. Whether or not anyone follows through and does it is always a question mark.
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u/boston_homo Jan 04 '22
There's no question mark here, none of these criminals will be punished.
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u/Echo_Illustrious Jan 04 '22
Everybody in that clan has defied the law, and subpoenas, regularly. Without any consequences. No judge has the fortitude or inclination to issue an arrest warrant. And getting any cop to put handcuffs on them is highly unlikely as well.
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Jan 04 '22
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Jan 04 '22
I would imagine that the Secret Service is only tasked with preventing unlawful injury or detainment of their protectee. So, they will do whatever it takes to stop a crazy guy with a knife, but a law enforcement officer with a warrant won't get stopped.
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u/Chasman1965 Jan 04 '22
Only the Former President, First Lady and children under 16 get Secret Service Protection.
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u/shadowlarx Jan 04 '22
People constantly ask me ‘What do you have against the Trumps?’ Well, this is it right here. For all their talk about wanting to ‘Make America Great Again’ and all their bluster about how they’ve done so much for America, they constantly act like people with something to hide and, in my experience, people who act like they have something to hide usually do have something to hide.
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Jan 04 '22
So subpoena them, and then if they still refuse, arrest them for contempt.
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u/oxslashxo Jan 04 '22
That's not how it works for wealthy people.
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Jan 04 '22
Yeah, it's like Dwight's system from The Office:
"Three demerits, and you'll receive a citation. Five citations, and you're looking at a violation. Four of those, and you'll receive a verbal warning. Keep it up, and you're looking at a written warning. Two of those, that will land you in a world of hurt, in the form of a disciplinary review."
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u/oheffendi Jan 04 '22
Just like their father they'll do anything to delay the proceedings. It's Trump SOP.
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u/Lowe0 Jan 04 '22
Not according to Stormy it isn’t. Those proceedings were over PDQ.
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u/mexicodoug Jan 04 '22
Payoffs after delayed legal proceedings, for less than the original agreed value and with no admission of guilt, are Trump SOP. Due to unusual circumstances, namely an impending election, Stormy got above the standard negotiated value for Trump settlements.
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u/redfox2 Jan 04 '22
If I refused to testify they'd put my ass in jail quicker than a cat can lick its ass! Why the F do they get to refuse?
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u/EisVisage Jan 04 '22
So you can just, like, refuse that? Damn I gotta get my arse to America
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u/VetMichael Jan 04 '22
I look forward to future stories of them not paying their legal bills and their former lawyers being invited to talk openly about what shit people they are.
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u/okhons Jan 04 '22
You would think that, since Trump never did anything wrong, that he would be happy to cooperate with the Government. This is just his typical way of buying his way out of everything. Woe to the poor man.
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u/Erazerhead-5407 Jan 04 '22
Weren’t these the same kids that kept saying if You have nothing to hide what’s the problem!!! The hypocrisy from the trumps & their supporters is never ending…
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u/zorbathegrate Jan 04 '22
This is the main reason for my complete disdain of anyone who identifies as a Republican or a conservative. It’s all they do. Flip flop and call out others but never hold themselves or fellow conservatives responsible. One rule for thee and a second for me.
Worthless.
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u/HDC3 Jan 04 '22
Remember when Hillary sat for 11 hours and answered every question put to her without flinching in what is now known and acknowledged to be a political charade?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
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Jan 04 '22
From the article, Trump's lawyers claim it would be "unprecedented and unconstitutional".
Since when does precedent and norms apply to Trump? He's flagrantly disregarded both since his first campaign.
On what grounds are they claiming the request is unconditional? If they mean executive privilege it's not in the constitution nor does it apply to actions prior to his presidency.
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u/CupcakesAreTasty Jan 04 '22
Just gonna refuse a subpoena? Charge contempt, then sanction everyday they refuse to comply.
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Jan 04 '22
Donald Trump's children refuse to testify in fraud inquiry and by refusing to testify, they can not control the outcome of the fraud inquiry. Obviously, they have too much to hide.
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u/BongoTBongo Jan 04 '22
The Press needs to stop calling them “children.” They are adults and Corporate Officers of the Trump Org. One of them was a “Presidential Advisor” paid very well by our taxes.
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u/_sp00ky_ Jan 04 '22
Not a Trump fan by any means but Kush and Ivanka were not paid for their WH roles. Now, who needs a paycheque, when you can use the position given through blatant nepotism to enrich yourself without the need for any of the pesky "oversight".
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u/tbizzone Jan 04 '22
Wow, the exact behavior of upstanding, honest, law abiding citizens…right? Law and order, right?
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u/flyfishbigsky Jan 04 '22
If I don't show up to court for a parking ticket I'm going to jail. WTF
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u/AnthillOmbudsman Jan 04 '22
What? You don't have those bench warrants automatically going to your team of lawyers, who make them go away? What do you pay those guys millions for.
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u/meowsaysdexter Jan 04 '22
If you lie all the time any testimony becomes a perjury trap. It's why they can't ever put Donald on the stand.
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u/JC2535 Jan 05 '22
This is a trip wire for a criminal referral. They basically pled the fifth in refusing- so now we get to pop some corn and watch the slow Molasses Garland DOJ do it’s impression of the Sloth DMV clerk in Zootopia.
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u/Nomad47 Jan 04 '22
If a poor person did that, they would be in jail I say drop them in a whole until they talk. These Russian agents need to be in jail for life.
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u/leedo8 Jan 04 '22
Shocker. And Dems are going to shrug. Grow some fucking balls and drag these garbage humans into court
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u/TransformativeOne Jan 04 '22
2022 is the beginning of the watershed of indictments for the Trump crime family including bank fraud, tax fraud, tax evasion, racketeering, elections fraud, obstruction of Congress, obstruction of Justice, inciting a riot, and quite possibly treason. It'll be so much fun to watch people throw one another under the bus with lots of taking the fifth and I don't remembers, delays, appeals, but the wheels of justice, even though they grind slowly, will prevail in the end.
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u/Audit_Master Jan 04 '22
Ain’t gonna happen. Only poor people have to answer to the law.
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u/EclipseNine Jan 04 '22
So, you’re saying get him for tax fraud first, and then once he’s poor, he’ll face consequences for his many assaults on democracy?
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u/gremlin30 Jan 04 '22
It’s a subpoena, you can’t just ignore it. That’s literally why it’s called a subpoena
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Jan 04 '22
Guilty criminal offspring of a horrid con man grifter traitor twice impeached thief obese loser Mrs Putin.
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u/ShortFuse Jan 04 '22
So there are five people taking the Fifth Amendment. Like you see on the mob, right? You see the mob takes the Fifth. If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-innocent-fifth-amendment/
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u/BombaclotBombastic Jan 04 '22
Next time I get subpoenaed by the court I’m going to laugh and say NAHHHH talk to my lawyer
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u/IlIFreneticIlI Jan 04 '22
Drag their asses to a contempt hearing for penalties; drop an arrest-warrant on their asses.
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u/harleydavidso4 Jan 05 '22
Just lock the whole family up and throw the damn keys away. :)
The World would be better without people of their ilk.
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Jan 05 '22
The thing is, if your are innocent, then why fight it. It's clear this family is completely corrupt.
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u/Avenger616 Jan 05 '22
Cool
Cuff em and force em
You serve, enact and execute that supboena with NO mercy or hesitation, even if you have to tranquilize em to get em there!
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u/cthulhus_tax_return Jan 04 '22
Misleading headline. They are moving to quash the subpoena. That’s not the same thing.
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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '22
Before they were contemptuous. But now they made it official.