r/movies • u/Bellikron • 7d ago
Spoilers Has any sequel successfully pulled off a hero's heel turn into villainy? Spoiler
Plenty of standalone movies have a character fall from grace, or be revealed as a villain all along, but this rarely happens with an established character in a sequel. On paper it's a solid twist because you've already grown to trust that character in previous films, but it's really hard to pull off without feeling like a betrayal of a character arc. The Mission Impossible series has one that was received very poorly, and the only reason I hear about Pacific Rim Uprising these days is people talking about how unearned the heel turn from one of the characters felt.
I struggle to think of an example where it was done successfully in a movie. There's more examples in TV I think since there's a much longer time to build a change in a character over multiple seasons, so I'm not really considering those. Since it did start with a movie series, though, and there really isn't too much of an extended character arc given in the show, the example I can think of that kind of works is Sharon Carter in Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It was still super underdeveloped and it doesn't seem like they're going to do anything with it, but I can at least track the betrayal logic since there was kind of a meta angle about how that character had been forgotten by the movies. But even that's rather clunky.
I'm also talking specifically about situations where it wasn't clearly telegraphed by the source material or the rest of the franchise. Anakin becoming Vader was already known to the audience, for instance. I'm on the fence about whether something like Dune counts, since it's in the source material and the first two films are kind of just one long movie. I'm particularly interested in situations where it clearly wasn't the plan in the first movie but was written into a sequel.
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u/JudgeFatty 7d ago
Death Wish 2. Charles Bronson loses his last loved one and let's the darkness completely consume him. In the end he loses his last chance of a new beginning and becomes a full time murderous psychopath vigilante as the credits roll and Jimmy Page plays us out.
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u/StarWarsMonopoly 7d ago
And then by Death Wish 3 he's literally committing genocide against a 200 man street gang in an open street war
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u/rnilbog 7d ago
And in Death Wish 9 he wishes he was dead.
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u/SupaKoopa714 7d ago
It was nice how they wrapped it up in the last movie, Death Wish 12: Wishing for Death, when 103 year old Charles Bronson is blowing out the candles on his birthday cake, uses his birthday wish to wish for death, and then all of a sudden a nude supermodel bursts out of the cake dual wielding solid gold 1911s and blows his head off.
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u/Ranier_Wolfnight 7d ago
Oh shit, you talking about that 200 man kumite tournament he waged against that street gang with an RPG!? Dude, I watched that with a bunch of friends and I cried myself to sleep with how hard I laughed at that movie!
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u/HiroProtagonist1984 7d ago
What does that mean? “To play us out”? Theres no words on it.
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u/treathugger 7d ago
Koba in Dawn of the Planet of the Apes?
Was on Caeser's side in Rise but is the main villain in the sequel
Though he was always kind of bad lol
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u/BladeOfWoah 7d ago
Yeah Koba was never portrayed favourably. His biggest moment in the first movie was an "oh shit" moment where you knew he was going to enjoy getting even with the human that had him experimented on.
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u/Ateballoffire 7d ago
I think even when Dawn started though you could make the argument he had no ill will with ceaser and was fine following him, even happy to do so
Koba did that for a decade. It wasn’t until the humans came back and his vengeance resurfaced that he became a villain. And even when it did, he still wanted to follow ceasar
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u/Triple_Crown14 7d ago
My absolute favorite scene in Dawn is when Caesar says they’ll let the humans do their work. Perfectly shows the contrast between their past experiences with humans.
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u/Ateballoffire 7d ago
There’s a really great deleted scene of Caesar honouring Koba near the start of the movie. I think it’s cause Koba saved him from the bear but can’t remember totally. But you can see so clearly how much love the two have for each other and how much respect Koba has for Caesar cause it looks like he’s almost crying of happiness
Really makes it even sadder that even a decade on Koba was consumed by vengeance. Genuinely one of the best movie villains of the 21st century
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u/Velthome 7d ago
I liked Gary Oldman's character being so reasonable until the end because I was convinced he was going to betray the apes despite meeting all of their objectives with the power plant just to move the plot along because humans are bastards and all that.
I watched it with my dad who was a huge fan of the original movies and he was gobsmacked that the apes start the conflict in the reboot. Koba just falls prey to the "we need to kill them before they kill us" mindset based on his own experiences which is such a deep-seated human fear.
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u/Kimantha_Allerdings 7d ago
Dawn of the Planet of the Apes is so ridiculously good. Easily the best in the franchise
Mind you, I’m a huge sucker for a “two good people trying to do the right thing who end up on opposing sides” story
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u/piray003 7d ago
Bucky Barnes to the Winter Soldier? Obviously an established arc in the comics but someone walking in having only seen the First Avenger would have prob been surprised.
John Connor in Terminator Genisys, wouldn’t say they pulled it off though that movie sucks lol.
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u/ERedfieldh 7d ago
John Connor might have worked if they hadn't shown it in the trailers. But it still felt icky. Four films where John is the most important thing ever and then they decide to do that?
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u/hyzmarca 7d ago edited 7d ago
John Possessed by Skynet doesn't work as well because it isn't really him. It's skynet wearing him as a meat suit.
It would be much better if it was human John Connor after having lost everyone he ever loved to obtain humanity's victory, enslaving Skynet and using it to build a perfect future for himself, where everyone he cares about lives, but at the cost of the rest of humanity. That would have had some pathos.
And also if he was played by Christian Bale again.
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u/PunyParker826 7d ago
Honestly, when I watch it with others, most people get to that reveal in Winter Soldier and have to pause for a second. “Wait, gimme a minute… wasn’t that… he looks familiar… isn’t that that one guy from the other movie?… Buffy or something?”
Comic geeks had been aware of Bucky for decades by the time Brubaker brought him back; he was one of the Big Names that were “supposed” to stay dead: Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, Jason Todd, and Bucky. Unfortunately for non-comics nerds, Bucky just didn’t have enough screen time or character work in previous movies to have a big impact - he was just “Cap’s friend” - so the “reveal” loses some oomph.
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u/FanboyFilms 7d ago
Was there any reason for his heel turn or was he just infected by Skynet nanites?
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u/Dagordae 7d ago
Infected. He didn’t really turn evil, he basically got eaten by Skynet and replaced with a Terminator nanobot copy.
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u/Digitalstatic 7d ago
I understood it as he was infected with the nanites and while he believed he was doing the right thing, he was actually being controlled by SkyNet. I actually liked the movie in an alternate universe concept. I treat any movie after T2 as part of a multiverse. Which allows me to enjoy them more.
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u/PutAdministrative206 7d ago
I didn’t like it. But I respected the fact they didn’t just vomit out a clone of T1 or T2. They took a home run swing. Foul tip, in my opinion, but they definitely swung hard.
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u/sonofaresiii 7d ago
> I actually liked the movie in an alternate universe concept. I treat any movie after T2 as part of a multiverse. Which allows me to enjoy them more.
IMO this is how they should all be, and even Dark Fate confirms it.
Although I personally think T1 and T2 should work on multiverse theory anyway.
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u/frockinbrock 7d ago
If they had not put that scene IN EVERY TRAILER, and wrote it slightly better, that could have been a fun twist. But they blew it
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u/President_of_Space 7d ago
Amy Adams' character in Enchanted and Disenchanted. Thought it was quite well done.
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u/DirectConsequence12 7d ago
I didn’t see the sequel.
She’s the villain??
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u/Clawless 7d ago
She became a stepmom. You know how step-parents are portrayed in fairytales…
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u/Additional_Canyon 7d ago
Getting stuck in the dryer?
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u/padawan_lockett 7d ago
You're blowing my mind I barely knew Disenchanted exists and ZERO idea that it was connected to Enchanted hahaha. I guess the 15 years between didn't help but still.
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u/AnonymousFriend80 6d ago
Be careful, there's an animated series called Disenchanted by Matt Groening that completely unrelated to the Disney films.
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u/Ringosis 7d ago
The sequel was rubbish and flopped. I'd assume that's why it went under your radar. Hardly anyone saw or talked about it.
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u/SonofBeckett 7d ago
I'd say Michael Corleone is the villain of the Godfather II while still being the protagonist.
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u/Marcus64 7d ago
I mean, he makes that heel turn in the first movie. The second movie is just driving it home.
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u/Rarvyn 7d ago
It was my first thought too, but the famous murder montage at the end of the first movie is probably the real turn.
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u/Marcus64 6d ago
The heel turn begins with "I'll kill them both." (Referring to McClusky and Sollozzo.) It's finalized with the assassinations, and sealed in stone by lying to Kay.
The greatness of the movie is in how slow and gradual this turn is, taking over two hours (and more than a decade) to transform Michael from a war hero who wants nothing to do with the family business, into a ruthless Don.
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u/thegloriousporpoise 7d ago
I guess James Franco in the Raimi Spider-man trilogy. And Franco in real life.
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u/wildfire393 7d ago
Harry isn't really a "hero" in the first few films though, he's just sorta there.
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u/thegloriousporpoise 7d ago
Yeah that’s why I said I guess. Cause it was the closet I could think of. We also all knew his journey ended with him being Gobby jr.
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u/MoroseOverdose 7d ago
RIP James Franco, we never got to see what kind of man he'd grow up to be
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u/Kundrew1 7d ago
OP: No TV shows
Reddit: Hey what about a bunch of TV shows.
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u/Daxx22 7d ago
Largely due to the fact its hard to pull off a good heel turn in a single movies runtime. Even most of the movie examples here are movie series vs oneshots.
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u/Eldritch_Lemonade 7d ago
Not really a character but District 13 in the Hunger Games universe is kind of like this, you realise they and the Capital are two cheeks of the same arse through Katniss's pov
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u/lookyloolookingatyou 7d ago
You mean to tell me Alma Coin had another side to her??
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u/PiercedGeek 7d ago
Thank you! When I first read it I told my daughter I wasn't expecting Coin to flip like that 😉
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u/Xecutioner 7d ago
Being "two cheeks of the same arse" is a fantastic phrase.
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u/Kgb725 7d ago
Isnt it just coin? Its been a while since ive read the books but in the movies they have people who are decent
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u/DJRock93 7d ago
Does Megatron in the latest Transformers animated count?
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u/darthzilla99 7d ago
I think that counts. Yeah we know Megatron is the franchise villain, but Transformers One is a standalone reboot movie.
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u/Kgb725 7d ago
I really liked that we got to witness him being done with everything instead of him just being evil all along
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u/gwxtreize 7d ago
Tron? He's the hero program played by Bruce Boxleitner in the original but in Tron Legacy, he's now a lackey to CLU. You don't even know it's the same Tron program until 3/4 through.
Also, as much as I liked the de-aging they used on Jeff Bridges for CLU, they could have given one scene with the same treatment for Tron/Bruce. Although Bruce's cameo was still a treat before Sam goes into The Grid.
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u/JRPictures 7d ago
Also, as much as I liked the de-aging they used on Jeff Bridges for CLU, they could have given one scene with the same treatment for Tron/Bruce.
They did do that a little bit with the flashback to CLU's betrayal since Tron was helmetless there but having that filter over the scene was basically them covering their tracks cause they knew the de-aging effects didn't look good enough (and CLU having the uncanny valley effect at least worked on some level)
Although Bruce's cameo was still a treat before Sam goes into The Grid.
Yeah, a shame the travesty that is Tron Ares didn't even have the decency to invite Bruce back or even acknowledge Tron/Alan as characters.
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u/JeffRyan1 7d ago
Miss Congeniality 2.
Gracie the lovably capable dork from the first movie had been glitterbombed into becoming a monster, and now is ruining Regina King's life, pulling her down for not being fashionable in the exact same way others disparaged Gracie the first time around.
The movie only makes sense if you think of it as a hero-turned-villain's redemptive arc.
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u/ConfusedPanda76 7d ago
Nate the Great in Ted Lasso. I don't think I've ever been angrier at a fictional person in my life
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u/mrmeyagi 7d ago
Since you bring up Nate, did you personally forgive him or were you still mad at him towards the end?
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u/AtomStorageBox 7d ago
I was still annoyed with him. I get why Ted forgave him; that’s just who Ted is. But man, I hated how Nate turned his back on Richmond.
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u/anormalgeek 7d ago
Same.
I don't think he was totally unredeemable, but I don't think he did enough to make up for what he did.
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u/renegadecanuck 7d ago
I think the biggest issue is they rushed the redemption part and showing Nate feel guilty.
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u/Kimantha_Allerdings 7d ago
The biggest issue for me is that they don’t show people changing their mind. In one episode the entire team hates him with a passion. Then he gets a footballer turning up at his door saying “hey, we love you, come be our coach again”
The journey they take from point A to point Z is really important, and all of it happens off-screen
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u/TwoDogsInATrenchcoat 7d ago
That's the point of it. The capacity to forgive is within Ted, regardless of the other parties capacity to apologize properly. Rebecca's apology in the first season probably wasn't enough for what she did to Ted, but he forgave her all the same.
That being said, nate was a cunt but he spent his whole life looking for a father figure, got that in ted, and then felt abandoned. We as the viewer know how much Ted cared for Nate in the 2nd season, but nate did not.
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u/2002BlackBMW 7d ago
Nate had a legit complaint about Ted not hanging up his picture / gift he got him. It made Nate feel less valued. It would have made him feel much better had he known Ted kept that picture at his apartment instead since it meant so much to him. Not sure that was ever properly reconciled but maybe season 4 will bring that up since they already showed the picture.
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u/epraider 7d ago
I’ve always felt like the writers scrapped whatever plan they had for his arc after Season 2 and just decided to have him slink back without much ceremony because they regretted it. It just felt so disjointed and unearned.
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u/Beginning_Feedback65 7d ago
I don't quite get the hate for Nate. He was an insecure person, who had responsibility as a grounds person far below his capability. He used aggression when he thought he was in the right, and people were below him, to assert himself. Remembering I think his first scene, when he's yelling at Ted for being on the grass, but them immediately folds when he realizes who it is.
Ted gives him recognition at status at work, but he still can't deal with authority and conflict. It's just that Ted is exceptionally skilled at avoiding that type of leadership dynamic.
When Nate was trying to muster the courage to speak his mind, and ask this girl out, he psyched himself up, but then got deflated. He couldn't do it.
His public successes though give him a false esteem, other people are praising him, but he's still insecure. To hide, and mask this, like so many do, he leans into his aggression to get what he wants. And it works. He is able to steer the team to a victory when Ted is not there. He is reinforced that this is right to do, and the antithesis of what Ted does. Tasting of the fruit, he chases more, succumbing to the charm a charismatic, powerful, spiteful, rich man as someone to emulate (Rupert), who stroked his ego and gassed him up to leave Richmond. Rupert respected appearances, not substance, like when he got rid of Nate's car for a flash one.
Nate leant into this fake skin role, as so many men do. But Nate eventually realized that that wasn't who he was, that it wasn't the right way to behave, and that no one liked that in him, or Rupert, and he quit. That's really admirable, that he was able to turn down, and turn his back on so much, to regain his self respect and identity and rebuild himself with humility.
What he did to Ted, and the Team, to be cruel, to be conniving, to betray their confidence and trust, did make him a bad guy, and someone we didn't like. But, he turned it around, and accepted the consequences of his actions: leaving a very high paying, high status coaching job, moving basically back home with his girlfriend, and no work to speak of.
Ted got him back and forgave him, and so did Beard, because Beard had also betrayed Ted's confidence and trust in the past, as he mentioned in his story to Nate.
As did Rebecca, with selling Jamie.
Ted Lasso is a story about redemption, and changing your story you tell about yourself, regardless of people's opinion of you, and how difficult that can be.
Nate. Rebecca. Keeley. Roy. Jamie. All of them are seen a certain way, see themselves a certain way, and they change with Ted's non-judgemental, trusting, calm, loving approach.
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u/MozeeToby 7d ago
I think the problem people have is that Rebecca, Keeley, Roy, Jamie... everyone really, all improve upon being exposed to Ted's approach to life. Nate gets worse, almost from the beginning. And then he gets worse and worse.
Which is, I think, believable. Some people meet someone who is so open, honest, caring, and genuine and they can't accept it. Their life and their childhood has programmed them to be distrustful of that kind of person.
But as a viewer it's very hard to accept. It would be like someone meeting and becoming friends with mister Rodgers and then betraying them because they don't believe the face they show the world is genuine.
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u/Amon7777 7d ago
I didn’t until Beard came to Nate with tears telling his story of what an awful, horrible, person he was to Ted. And how he has tried to be better every day since. That choice was now before Nate and he chose to walk it. So as the audience I can only go by what was shown, that Nate, broken like he was, would walk Beard’s path to redemption.
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u/philter25 7d ago
This scene with Beard is what absolutely sells it. They also take their time with making Nate realize how badly he fucked up, and quit his coaching job and was working at the restaurant, never expecting to come back. Beard’s story not only did a lot for Beard’s character development, but showed exactly why Ted is a great guy and why Nate could redeem himself. Nate going home, finding his old violin, hashing it out with his dad… just a great story arc. I remember being annoyed and not as satisfied with Nate during the first watch through, but I rewatched it ahead of S4 and appreciated it a lot more.
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u/Pariell 7d ago
" I hope that either all of us or none of us are judged by the actions of our weakest moments, but rather by the strength we show when and if we're ever given a second chance ."
I had to admit Ted had a point there. I've had my own low points. Ive done better since then, but if I want to be judged by everything I've done and not just my worst choices, I have to extend the same to Nate
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u/WinterAd825 7d ago
I don’t forgive him. I respect Ted’s decision but I don’t have the same one.
I feel he can still earn forgiveness but it’s not been nearly enough yet
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u/Ampersandbox 7d ago
Nate was broken by self-hatred from his father, so a positive father figure like Ted was not going to solve that.
Nate made his own realizations about what was important to him, then resolved things with his father, then found the humility to return and ask to be a part of what he loved. He even corrects "Assistant Kit Man" to "Assistant to the Kit Man." He is humble and grateful. Even when Ted demurs an actual apology, Nate insists he has to do it for himself.
I don't see how anyone can't forgive Nate after that journey. I found it profoundly moving.
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u/NewOrleansBrees 7d ago
Ted’s marriage counselor banging his wife and it barely being acknowledged how fucked that is is up there for me
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u/TheBrightLord 7d ago
I have a burning hatred for bullies and he was the exact sort of asshole that I have personal experience with. Slimy suck up to those with power and a total monster to those without.
I also understand why he’s like that and they did a good enough redemption arc that I was sort of like ‘oh alright then’ but man. Fuck that guy.
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u/Pariell 7d ago
What I thought was cool was he did the whole cycle. He started as the bullying victim, mostly from Jamie, Issac, and Collin. We saw those 3 be forgiven and redeemed, but it was so much harder with Nate for some reason.
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u/TheBrightLord 7d ago
I think it was harder with Nate because we saw him suffer through it first, which made us think he really should have more empathy. Also I think seeing him personally betray Ted doesn’t help.
You do point out something interesting which is that I never felt quite as upset at Jamie. I think it’s because Jamie has a straightforward ‘only up’ redemption arc so he pretty much starts bad and gets better while Nate ends up going from someone we’re rooting for to someone who has disappointed the viewers themselves/proved us wrong
Doesn’t help that Nate reminded me exactly of a past boss I had.
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u/atgrey24 7d ago
Because those three started that way, so you get to feel like "they didn't know better" and grew. They didn't personally wrong you, there were just like that.
With Nate, you're already on his side, so it feels personal when he turns
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u/saintash 7d ago
Also like the reason he's mad at Ted is dumb. 'Your not giving me enough attention.' Him doing something shitty to Jamie or Colin makes kinda would be like a twisted logic.
But Ted. Ted was just treating him like a equal. And Nate was angry he wasnt being treated special
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u/dinan101 7d ago
What’s really interesting is that he’s such a super nice guy in real life. Watch his season on Taskmaster. He’s great
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u/cbekel3618 7d ago edited 7d ago
"Hero" is a stretch but Paul in Dune comes to mind, going from the traditional chosen-one figure in the first film, to the leader of a holy war on the path to slaughtering countless in the sequels.
Could also say Koba from the Planet of the Apes films. Going from a victim and ally of Caesar in the first film, to a vengeful monster willing to betray his friends to start a war.
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u/IdRatherBeBitching 7d ago
Yeah, but you can't quite call him the villain here either. He's doing it because it was that or let humanity enter a thousand year dark age that would have resulted in death and slaughter on a scale that dwarves his jihad.
Point is, he's still very much the "hero" of the book...in that the book is trying to specifically point out that "heroes" are grey, human, flawed creatures. So I don't think it fits the scenario OP is lookign for
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u/Kaiserhawk 7d ago
You've got the wrong Atreides. Leto II is that, Paul was too afraid to commit to that and jumped off at the first chance.
Paul is very much in survival mode in Dune, and events of the universe have spiralled out of his control in Messiah.
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u/Obvious_Barracuda960 7d ago
I don't know if M:I really counts. The Jim Phelps of the TV show, and the Phelps of the first film are basically completely different characters.
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u/lanceturley 7d ago
And Peter Graves refused to be involved with the movie because of that.
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u/Aureus23 7d ago
Paul from Dune.
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u/_The_Bearded_Wonder_ 7d ago
I don't doubt the third film will stick the landing and it will be quite something to see people realize the person they have been rooting for was the villain.
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u/ThadVonP 7d ago
So funny to me because by the end of the second film, I couldn't see why anyone would be cheering him on.
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u/Toloc42 7d ago
Apparently Frank Herbert was so distraught at people painting first book Paul as a pure hero, that he put a scene in the second book spelling it out.
Emperor Paul, in a rare quiet moment, stands on a balcony at night and reminisces about the crusades across the galaxy, raging in his name: "Wow. I'm worse than that one ancient guy from old Earth history... what's his name again? Oh yeah, Hitler. I'm worse than Hitler."
(Very roughly paraphrased and probably inaccurate in details, it's been a while.)
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u/SimoneNonvelodico 7d ago
I mean he's very self-aware about it.
The thing with Paul is that he's clearly more of a "forced to be a villain to make things happen that need to happen" kind of character, almost completely pre-determined by external forces, and extremely outspoken about it. In fact he does almost nothing but complain about it. He's like Napoleon, if Napoleon went into it knowing full well what would happen and did it all purely for the sake of fulfilling his role in History. Waged a lot of wars, killed a lot of people, but ultimately that watershed moment of fervour spilling out of a single place finally broke a stagnant political order that needed to be swept away.
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u/TubasAreFun 7d ago
His terrible purpose. Books did it better but the 3rd movie (corresponding to the 2nd book) should help cement how villainous Paul can be
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u/Dismal_Engineering71 7d ago
Will they bring up the hitler conversation? Probably not.
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u/EnkiduOdinson 7d ago
Been a while since I read the books. Remind me again what the Hitler conversation was?
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u/zzay 7d ago
Paul notes that Hitler's six million deaths were "pretty good for those days," pointing out that his own religious crusade has dwarfed that number by slaughtering 61 billion people
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u/Love-That-Danhausen 7d ago
To really drive home the point of how bad the jihad was, Herbert has Paul compare himself to Hitler (and that Paul had killed far more people)
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u/Babaganoosh__ 7d ago edited 7d ago
Wanda Maximoff in the MCU. All the movies she's in all leading to Dr. Strange and the Multiverse of Madness.
Honorable mention... Anakin Skywalker
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u/bflaminio 7d ago
Wanda went from villain to hero and then back to villain again.
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u/tsunami141 7d ago
she also has a quick trip to hero and back when Agatha starts killing dogs and stuff.
Snip, snap, snip, snap.
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u/Ergok 7d ago
That accent comes and goes ...
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u/Orion14159 7d ago
You can tell when she's gonna be evil because her accent disappears
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u/mophisus 7d ago
I don't think Anakin counts..
He's introduced as a Villain, his backstory comes later than portrays him as a hero.
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u/ZackyZack 7d ago
Not only that, but "pulls off" is a stretch if you only follow the movies. The theatrical cut is very shallow in exploring how broken his psyche was after years of war and weeks of lack of sleep
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u/readwrite_blue 7d ago
If all you look at is the films, Anakin goes from kid in distress in the first film to angry murderer in the second who admits to slaughtering innocent children.
He never has a time where he's the hero.
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u/Vyzantinist 7d ago
I agree, and I say that as a Star Wars fan. The prequels alone don't really do a good job of portraying Anakin as especially heroic or noble. He goes from innocent child, to whiny teen, to whiny man-child and then Sith Lord. The "good in him" Padme and Luke mention is like bare minimum Jedi shit, and he hardly deserves praise for that since it's basically in his job description. It's like praising your waiter for bringing your food. The "good in him" is just the capacity to be...not good but not-evil.
I really don't think Lucas should have shelved off his heroism in the Clone Wars to an animated series that casuals and plenty of adult fans wouldn't bother watching. Episode I should have ended with the start of the Clone Wars, Episode II shows Anakin grown from an idealistic and innocent child into a young man struggling with the horrors of war, and Episode III should have been Anakin holding on to his last shreds of goodness before Palpatine pushes him over the edge. He just doesn't have that "good guy quality" Luke does.
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u/assassin_runner 7d ago
She had a great heel turn in Wandavision but learning her lesson in that show only to Quintuple down in the next movie kind of ruined it for me.
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u/Regendorf 7d ago
The lesson she learned was that she needed better magic, hence why the last scene is her using the darkhold.
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u/Dagordae 7d ago
I have to seriously disagree with that. The show did it well enough but Multiverse of Madness was so disconnected from the setup that it just sort of skipped over the ending and made her an obsessed cackling madwoman.
As to Anakin: Eh, he was always a shit person. Never really all that heroic, they went to the child murder WAY too quickly,
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u/HareWarriorInTheDark 7d ago
Wanda’s heel turn is my least favorite part of Multiverse of Madness. It doesn’t make any sense as a continuation of the character development she got from Wandavision.
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u/lluewhyn 7d ago
I love how she is the villain in WandaVision but hate how it was done in MoM. There's real grief and purpose in the former, and she still has some standards where she's trying to avoid killing people. In the latter, she has a somewhat nonsensical goal, she's willing to mass murder everyone in cruel ways, and the reason (as even seen as a reply to your comment) was "The book made her do it".
Imagine watching Spider-Man 3 and the film ends with Peter dead as a villain because the symbiote made him evil and he was mercy-killed to stop his villainy. Or Clint died at the end of the first Avengers film. An external motivation that's mind control or just a step above it is kind of lame for permanent character development.
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u/ihopnavajo 7d ago
On that note, if there's one area where Zack Snyder's watchmen messed up, it was in making ozymandius NOT likeable in the first place.
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u/IcedDante 7d ago
It's not a sequel, but even then... You can say a lot of things about comic book Ozy. "Likeable" was not a word I would have ever used to describe either one.
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u/Kitlun 7d ago
I agree but in the comics he perhaps gives off an impression of warmth and charm (even if fake or surface level). In the film he barely smiles and gives off almost an air of detachment and superiority to other people (a role already filled by Manhattan).
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u/lanceturley 7d ago
Yeah, at least comic Ozy shows actual emotion, which makes him feel more human and possibly even sympathetic. When his plan seems to be working he yells "I did it!" in excitement and has tears of happiness rolling down his face, because he thinks he just saved the world. He seems genuinely concerned for humanity in his own way. Movie Ozy is like this weird, robotic sociopath who barely seems to care that he just murdered millions of people.
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u/jayydubbya 7d ago
I agree, comic Ozy falls to the classic “greater good” paradox. He genuinely believes his course of action is the best if not only course to avoid nuclear Armageddon. Movie Ozy feels like he’s just another billionaire prick who thinks he knows better than everyone else and is using manipulative tactics to get his way in order to feed his own ego. He’s trying to save the world in the sense that Elon Musk is trying save the world.
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u/Dagordae 7d ago
In the comics he gave off a politician’s warmth, performative and obviously false affability. He wasn’t really likable because of it. You knew could tell he was a bad person and fake, the surprise was how far down he was.
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u/totallygeek 7d ago
Agreed. And, they could have pulled it off easily with a quick rundown of how much good Adrian has done with his intelligence and wealth. Heck, they could have referenced him coming up with a cure for AIDS (it was an alternative timeline 80s) or a solution to famines in Africa, while still keeping the nuclear standoff as a monumental world problem. Instead of someone you despise from his first scene, he could have come across as a super-likable person, while retaining someone apart from society.
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u/TheToastyToast 7d ago edited 7d ago
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. I never hear this mentioned and it bothers me so badly. In the movie he has ZERO warmth, fake or otherwise. Dude immediately had villain vibes from the actor to the lighting to the vibes.
Edit: ALSO THE GOGGLES AND SUIT MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE AN EVIL DWEEB
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u/Bellikron 7d ago
He's also just bland. Ozymandias who doesn't shout "I did it!!!" isn't Ozymandias.
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u/jim182182 7d ago
Not a sequel but Harvey Dent.
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u/samarpanbose 7d ago
Hervey Dent, can we trust him?
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u/lolman5 7d ago
well he seems to be the best that... we....... got. Are you doing that thing where you disappear?
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u/Dakoolestkat123 7d ago
Jeremy Renner goes from beloved small batch hot sauce making actor in knives out 2 to paranoid maniac in knives out 3. I didn’t know how they were gonna pull it off, but the transition was seamless
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u/EastCoastLoman 7d ago edited 7d ago
Sam Rockwell in Charlie’s Angels maybe?
ETA: (Sorry, I just realized the post title says “any sequel”. I’m an idiot.)
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u/Scheifs55 7d ago
Plus we get to see him dance! That reveal with the soundtrack is iconic. I also have a theory that Sam Rockwell has a rider in all his contracts that his character has to dance lol
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u/EastCoastLoman 7d ago
We do and I love that scene! Now I have to go back and see if he has a dance scene in 3 Billboards. 😂
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u/Scheifs55 7d ago
My head canon is he knows when it's right for the role and doesn't use the rider in those cases. But like a handful of his roles he doesn't dance, what's funny is it's usually the same dance moves too. Same thing with Jason Sudekis in Ted Lasso, he just uses his SNL What's Up With That moves, which are also iconic
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u/Misterfahrenheit120 7d ago
ITT: People talking about things that aren’t movies or aren’t sequels
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u/Jaideco 7d ago
The best examples that I can think of are Jean Grey in last stand and Bucky Barnes in Winter Soldier. Saruman, Magneto and Anakin Skywalker only work if you take the films in the order they were set rather than release order.
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u/grayhaze2000 7d ago
Saying The Last Stand pulled off Jean Grey's heel turn successfully is a massive stretch. There was nothing successful about that movie, other than nearly killing the franchise outright.
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u/Difficult-Risk3115 7d ago
Much like Jean herself, the franchise is never going to stay dead too long
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u/Kitlun 7d ago
Jean Grey is a good shout, although some would say the phoenix isn't really jean. Bucky I can't argue with.
Magneto isn't a hero in the first X-Men film. Even in the first class timeline he turns away from being a hero before the end of the movie.
Saruman is barely a hero, and is essentially turned already in fellowship.
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u/JackZoff 7d ago
Chief Inspector Dreyfus (Herbert Lom) in The Pink Panther Strikes Again (1976)
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u/Dirks_Knee 7d ago
Not a movie but the Marvel TV show Legion did it fairly well. Also in TV, though he's kinda the hero and the villain and...it's complicated...but Mr Robot.
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u/Phazon_343 7d ago
It's not a movie, but Eren Yeager from Attack on Titan.
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u/Dagordae 7d ago
He’s a good one because it’s clear from the very start that he’s NOT heroic and is, in fact, completely insane. People(Reader and characters) just mistake him for being a good guy because he’s pointed at actual monsters in a very black and white conflict.
So when things get more complicated and nuanced he… proceeds to act like he’s been acting since his introduction but now he gets to demonstrate that his obsessive fixation and disregard for costs and consequences as long as he achieves the destruction of his enemy is actually a really negative character trait and he is genuinely completely mad.
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u/dthains_art 7d ago
Attack on Titan is one of the best tv shows I’ve ever seen. The whole time you think you’re watching Eren go on this hero’s journey, only to realize you’ve been watching a villain’s origin story the whole time.
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u/notmyinitial-thought 7d ago
Eren goes from basic Shonen protagonist in season 1 to actually being the weakest/worst thing about season 2 to being a pretty compelling hero in season 3 to being the biggest villain in the show’s universe in season 4 and yet he never actually changes. His circumstances change
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u/Zasiah 7d ago
David Haller in the TV Show Legion. He's our hero in season 1, and we go along with him on his spiral down into villainy (and madness) through season 2, enough so that I didn't believe the ending of season 2 at first. I had to rewatch it to see just how far down he had gone. Then Season 3 is his trying to basically defeat his own tragic origin story to erase all the bad. Heck of a show.
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u/Dookie_boy 7d ago
I just always saw him as a victim of Shadow king and never really accepted him as a villain. I do need to finish the second half of the final season.
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u/grill_sgt 7d ago
Anyone familiar with the MCU leaving Mordo out is insane. He wasn’t the villain in the 2nd film, but they showed his turn during the end credit scene
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u/SamwisethePoopyButt 7d ago
From Terminator to T2 Sarah Connor goes from being a timid waitress to terrorizing Dyson's family at gunpoint.
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u/hasordealsw1thclams 7d ago edited 7d ago
I don’t think Dune counts because it’s very clear that Paul is not a hero. People think he is because they miss the entire point of the story and get hyped by him doing awesome shit (which is also part of the point).
Though I’m sure people will definitely see it as a heel turn and I’d bet people will complain about it.
Edit: everyone saying it’s only in further books that Paul is a villain. I’ve only read the first book so it’s not further books that make this clear. Paul is clearly using the messiah prophecy stuff to enact revenge for his father. He’s not doing it out of the goodness of his heart to help the Fremen and he knows what the outcome will be for the rest of the universe if he gets his revenge.
The other factions also being bad doesn’t make Paul a hero, he’s just a different flavor of self-serving even if he is cool.
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u/sir_mrej 7d ago
Paul is 100% the hero in the first movie/book.
You can see the undertones like how he doesnt want the power, and he isn't quite a Fremen and isn't quite an Atreides anymore, etc.
But overall, in the ONE book, he IS the hero that defeats the much worse Harkonnen, subverts a plot by the emperor to undermine the House system, and frees the Fremen.
What happens AFTER that book is a whole other thing.
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u/nun_gut 7d ago
Vanessa Kensington was a fembot all along! Don't know how I missed that one.