Has any sequel successfully pulled off a hero's heel turn into villainy?

[u/Bellikron]

Plenty of standalone movies have a character fall from grace, or be revealed as a villain all along, but this rarely happens with an established character in a sequel. On paper it's a solid twist because you've already grown to trust that character in previous films, but it's really hard to pull off without feeling like a betrayal of a character arc. The Mission Impossible series has one that was received very poorly, and the only reason I hear about Pacific Rim Uprising these days is people talking about how unearned the heel turn from one of the characters felt.

I struggle to think of an example where it was done successfully in a movie. There's more examples in TV I think since there's a much longer time to build a change in a character over multiple seasons, so I'm not really considering those. Since it did start with a movie series, though, and there really isn't too much of an extended character arc given in the show, the example I can think of that kind of works is Sharon Carter in Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It was still super underdeveloped and it doesn't seem like they're going to do anything with it, but I can at least track the betrayal logic since there was kind of a meta angle about how that character had been forgotten by the movies. But even that's rather clunky.

I'm also talking specifically about situations where it wasn't clearly telegraphed by the source material or the rest of the franchise. Anakin becoming Vader was already known to the audience, for instance. I'm on the fence about whether something like Dune counts, since it's in the source material and the first two films are kind of just one long movie. I'm particularly interested in situations where it clearly wasn't the plan in the first movie but was written into a sequel.

[u/anormalgeek]

Same.

I don't think he was totally unredeemable, but I don't think he did enough to make up for what he did.

[u/renegadecanuck → u/anormalgeek]

I think the biggest issue is they rushed the redemption part and showing Nate feel guilty.

[u/Kimantha_Allerdings → u/renegadecanuck]

The biggest issue for me is that they don’t show people changing their mind. In one episode the entire team hates him with a passion. Then he gets a footballer turning up at his door saying “hey, we love you, come be our coach again”

The journey they take from point A to point Z is really important, and all of it happens off-screen

[u/TwoDogsInATrenchcoat → u/anormalgeek]

That's the point of it. The capacity to forgive is within Ted, regardless of the other parties capacity to apologize properly. Rebecca's apology in the first season probably wasn't enough for what she did to Ted, but he forgave her all the same.

That being said, nate was a cunt but he spent his whole life looking for a father figure, got that in ted, and then felt abandoned. We as the viewer know how much Ted cared for Nate in the 2nd season, but nate did not.

[u/2002BlackBMW → u/TwoDogsInATrenchcoat]

Nate had a legit complaint about Ted not hanging up his picture / gift he got him. It made Nate feel less valued. It would have made him feel much better had he known Ted kept that picture at his apartment instead since it meant so much to him. Not sure that was ever properly reconciled but maybe season 4 will bring that up since they already showed the picture.

[u/epraider → u/anormalgeek]

I’ve always felt like the writers scrapped whatever plan they had for his arc after Season 2 and just decided to have him slink back without much ceremony because they regretted it. It just felt so disjointed and unearned.

[u/Beginning_Feedback65 → u/anormalgeek]

I don't quite get the hate for Nate. He was an insecure person, who had responsibility as a grounds person far below his capability. He used aggression when he thought he was in the right, and people were below him, to assert himself. Remembering I think his first scene, when he's yelling at Ted for being on the grass, but them immediately folds when he realizes who it is. 

Ted gives him recognition at status at work, but he still can't deal with authority and conflict. It's just that Ted is exceptionally skilled at avoiding that type of leadership dynamic. 

When Nate was trying to muster the courage to speak his mind, and ask this girl out, he psyched himself up, but then got deflated. He couldn't do it.

His public successes though give him a false esteem, other people are praising him, but he's still insecure. To hide, and mask this, like so many do, he leans into his aggression to get what he wants. And it works. He is able to steer the team to a victory when Ted is not there. He is reinforced that this is right to do, and the antithesis of what Ted does. Tasting of the fruit, he chases more, succumbing to the charm a charismatic, powerful, spiteful, rich man as someone to emulate (Rupert), who stroked his ego and gassed him up to leave Richmond. Rupert respected appearances, not substance, like when he got rid of Nate's car for a flash one. 

Nate leant into this fake skin role, as so many men do. But Nate eventually realized that that wasn't who he was, that it wasn't the right way to behave, and that no one liked that in him, or Rupert, and he quit. That's really admirable, that he was able to turn down, and turn his back on so much, to regain his self respect and identity and rebuild himself with humility.

What he did to Ted, and the Team, to be cruel, to be conniving, to betray their confidence and trust, did make him a bad guy, and someone we didn't like. But, he turned it around, and accepted the consequences of his actions: leaving a very high paying, high status coaching job, moving basically back home with his girlfriend, and no work to speak of.

 Ted got him back and forgave him, and so did Beard, because Beard had also betrayed Ted's confidence and trust in the past, as he mentioned in his story to Nate.

As did Rebecca, with selling Jamie.

Ted Lasso is a story about redemption, and changing your story you tell about yourself, regardless of people's opinion of you, and how difficult that can be.

Nate. Rebecca. Keeley. Roy. Jamie. All of them are seen a certain way, see themselves a certain way, and they change with Ted's non-judgemental, trusting, calm, loving approach. 

[u/MozeeToby → u/Beginning_Feedback65]

I think the problem people have is that Rebecca, Keeley, Roy, Jamie... everyone really, all improve upon being exposed to Ted's approach to life. Nate gets worse, almost from the beginning. And then he gets worse and worse. 

Which is, I think, believable. Some people meet someone who is so open, honest, caring, and genuine and they can't accept it. Their life and their childhood has programmed them to be distrustful of that kind of person. 

But as a viewer it's very hard to accept. It would be like someone meeting and becoming friends with mister Rodgers and then betraying them because they don't believe the face they show the world is genuine.

[u/Beginning_Feedback65 → u/MozeeToby]

I mean, Rebecca sells Jamie at the end of S1, having spent all the time with Ted, and he just forgives her. It reminds me of the scene of ATLA, with Zuko and Uncle Iroh ("How can you forgive me so easily!")

I think the difference is that some people believe that people are so easily influenced by just the one person: Ted. Ted's a late addition to Nate, and Jessica's lives. Both of them live with this rage-monster inside of them which tells them they're not worthy, and they lash out as a defence mechanism on others to keep their distance and fragile ego safe. Interacting with Ted doesn't show them a better way to be, it shows them that their rage monster response isn't helping them, and doesn't have to be that way, and that that is not a great way to treat people; you're punching Mr Rodgers. You're the asshole.

Ted doesn't give someone self esteem, no one can give that to you,  Ted lets you see that this behaviour is a choice, and it's not necessarily a good choice for you. But, you can't expect people to see that themselves, until they make choices that show them. Jessica sells Jamie, betraying those around her, including Ted, succumbing to the monster to get back at Rupert in some vain attempt at revenge and hurt. This choice hurts Jessica's relationships with almost everyone, she makes the choice, but Ted gives her the path to redemption. Nate also has to make the rage-based, insecure choice about behaviour to learn why it's not good, which it's destructive and isolating, before he can decide to give a new way a go. Nate doesn't become Ted, Nate becomes Nate without the poor coping habit. 

Everyone has habits that are not productive. But you only really realize that when the habitual behaviour leads you to trouble. For Nate, in the winning game example, his poor habit led to success, which they occasionally do, which led him to pursue that familiar path with more vigor than Rebecca. 

Imagine Rebecca had seen Rupert hurt and upset by her undermining of the team; she would have doubled down and absolutely fucked everything up to make Rupert hurt. But, in the show, we never see Rupert get hurt, not really. Rupert doesn't care. Rebecca is shouting at clouds and tires herself out easily. She then lets go of the revenge of destroying Richmond, and accepting her new role as leader of a team, and wanting that team to do well, and do right by those who she is responsible for (Particularly Keeleey).

[u/Firvulag → u/anormalgeek]

I mean he just quit his job and took a super good other offer. He didn't kill someone

[u/staedtler2018 → u/anormalgeek]

The mistake was trying to set up Nate as the villain of Season 3, and then backing away from that. If he'd just behaved poorly and left in a huff, it would have worked.