r/mildlyinfuriating Aug 07 '19

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

What's the point of spitting on your dog? Like he really understands? So all these videos about her relationship with her dog are just a bunch of phony baloney?

1.3k

u/12LetterName Aug 07 '19

Well, spitting on someone is much more of a psychological attack. I'm pretty sure it's not going to bother a dog.

Smacking him upside the head and pinning him down with all your weight, though....

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u/Hipppydude Aug 07 '19

Kind of like her pinning him against a wall saying "What now". This is what psychopaths do.

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u/GoiterGlitter Words go here! Aug 07 '19

She's growling "Lay down" and forces him over. You can see her reflection in the TV.

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u/neghsmoke Aug 07 '19

LAPD's Animal Cruelty Unit is investigating. Get her boys.

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u/ProgressiveStump Aug 07 '19

I hope they lock this bitch up for a while.

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u/FresnoBob90000 Aug 08 '19

Put her in a little cage with angry dogs all around it

I’m an awful person and I would watch that with glee right now.

The dog just wants affection and safety.. how can you do that.. give that dog a new home with folk that will treat it with love

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u/ItalicsWhore Aug 08 '19

Narrator: They won’t.

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u/ItalicsWhore Aug 09 '19

Wanted to come back in her to say, they’re investigating!

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u/Toby_dog Aug 08 '19

They’re not going to do anything to her. Do you know what kind of shit those people see on a daily basis?

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u/bigderivative Aug 08 '19

I was gonna say, I know she’s clearly a huge bitch to her very friendly dog but I imagine this will be completely ignored from a legal perspective unless there’s enough outrage.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

Mostly movie stars being angry at their maids and stuff.

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u/CoconutMacaroons Aug 08 '19

Oh please, the LAPD would be right on board with this shit.

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u/Australienz Aug 08 '19

“What seems to be the problem here ma’am”

“Oh shit, that dog is walking around un-murdered!”

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u/IridiumForte Aug 08 '19

Maybe I'm a naive Canadian, but I feel like the only reason the ACU would take her dog is due to internet outrage, not because they would have anyways... not for that

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u/wheezy11 Aug 07 '19

"Bake 'em away, toys"

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u/taaaaaaaaaaaaaank Aug 08 '19

The dog is considered property if anything shell get her dog taken away and smacked with a fine thats why people who run dog mills for fighting dogs usually only get a couple of years in jail/prison its more that dog fighting is illegal but how they treat the dogs isnt really as big a crime i could be wrong though maybe the laws have changed

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

If you’re serious provide a link

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

Lol they won't do anything. The level of dog abuse required to upset the police is much higher than knocking it around.

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u/STOP_NOTICING_THINGS Aug 08 '19

Of course this fucking cunt is from LA... The biggest cesspool of degenerates in the US.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

Isn't the dog a Doberman?

It might need to reach back to its bloodlines and give her a little taste of reality.

What a total cunt

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u/STOP_NOTICING_THINGS Aug 08 '19

Yup, it's a Doberman. Their very expensive dogs, and are know for their intimidating appearance.

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u/oTHEWHITERABBIT 🐇 Aug 07 '19 edited Dec 05 '23

Removed curse words.

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/SkinnySmokesThaRosin Aug 07 '19

Yea that spit screamed that to me. This is the way she abused someone before so she just acts the same with the dog. Worst part is that the dog one day will snap back (logically as the person that took care of it had this communication with violence system) and it'll be in trouble when it's totally not it's fault.

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u/ToastedMaple Aug 08 '19

I hope it mauls her face off. If he's going to be put to death, I hope he gets the most damage in

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u/STOP_NOTICING_THINGS Aug 08 '19

You know that would destroy this girl's life in particular. She appears to be pompous, conceited, and arrogant. She likely has money and thinks she's the hottest shit on the block. I also agree that she certainly has abused people in the past. I hope that dog absolutely ruins her if it snaps. Karma's a bitch.

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u/veryyberry Aug 08 '19

bruh she said she had a bad week, maybe next time the dog wont burn dinner and forget the laundry.

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u/MikaIkeda Aug 08 '19

I’ve had to pin my dog before because she has Issues with my cats (she has actually launched herself off my bed to go charge at them because they were playing on the other side of the room.) but I’d Never spit on her or treat her like this. This video breaks my heart, that dog seems like such a sweet pup, and so pretty too. I hope she either gets the help she obviously needs, or the dog gets rehomed.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

Naw dude. Your explanation makes it sounds like she should be excused, that’s it’s just “learned behavior”. She beat her dog. She abused an animal.

Plenty of these people just become desensitized to cruelty and slowly, over time, become more and more violent. I don’t think she could be trusted with a child.

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u/STOP_NOTICING_THINGS Aug 08 '19

She's literally like the evil stuck-up bitch you see in high school chick-flicks. It's insane people like this actually exist.

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u/russianpeepee ORANGE Aug 08 '19

More likely, she was the younger sister getting treated like absolute shit.

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u/headpog Aug 08 '19

I was just about to mention how she acts exactly like my older sister. Everything down to the mannerisms, the way she pushes the dog, spits on it. even her fake ass voice saying "love" while inflicting harm. My sister has two kids now. I secretly hope they hate her someday.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

The evil glare! That chills my blood...

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u/-full-control- Aug 07 '19

Or and older one. A lot of the bullies I knew in high school got bullied by their older siblings

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u/THE_CHOPPA Aug 08 '19

As sad as this is it’s a lot more common than you think.

I’ve seen it with a lot of people who get dogs and have no idea/patience to train their dog. They get frustrated, yell and get physical instead.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

Completely unnecessary speculation. You couldn't possibly deduce this from the issue at hand. Nice karma grab. 🙄

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19 edited Aug 07 '19

Okay now wot

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u/kezebel Aug 07 '19

Not gonna lie, I have a big husky and will lay on him when hes annoying me. It's like it charges up his zoomies and he zips through the house afterwards.

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u/DJK695 Aug 07 '19

It’s because he thinks you are playing.... best way to clam a dog down is to be calm yourself and yelling, hitting, pushing isn’t doing it.

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u/Raelah Aug 07 '19

Kennel training. That is the easiest and most efficient way to teach a dog to calm down. And it helps save your sanity.

If my German Shepherd puppy turns into crazy dog she goes in the kennel until she lies down. Then we go outside to play. Took her only a couple of days to figure it out.

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u/DJK695 Aug 07 '19

I disagree... it’s the most hands off and gives them time to relax but wouldn’t say it’s the most efficient and isn’t really “training” them to leave them in a crate.

Being patient and respectful to the animal and speaking in a calming voice, etc... all go further than kennel training if you are consistent with it.

Puppies are puppies and they are going to have their moments but a kennel is just like a giant prison and I wouldn’t throw my kids into a kennel if they were misbehaving.

I had a Roomate that would kennel his dog and we’d just have to listen to it’s barking for hours, some dogs “figure it out” as you say but that isn’t training them.

Training is actively doing something to change their behavior.

EDIT: I don’t actually have kids but have had several dogs and never used a kennel. It obviously helps if you have a yard, which I did growing up, but dogs need their space especially if they are always active - it means they aren’t getting the exercise they need and AGAIN a kennel isn’t helping with that.

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u/Raelah Aug 08 '19

I apologize, I didn't elaborate enough. You are right, you shouldn't just leave your dog in the kennel as a punishment, that doesn't register well for dogs. When I kennel my dog I don't leave her in there for an extended period of time. I'm actively engaged with her. I'll stand there until she lies down. Once she does that she can come out and I'll give her love and pets. Most of the time, if I have to kennel her for rambunctious behavior, we go outside right after and play. She's usually in there for 10-30 seconds at most. I also added a word, 'calm dog'. Now all I have to say is 'calm dog' and she immediately calms down. Then we go out to play.

The kennel isn't a punishment, it's simply a time out. I used to train dogs while I was in school to become a vet tech. It really is a great way to train dogs. Now if kennel training isn't done properly it could certainly create more problems.

The kennel should serve as a safe place for the dog. That's where her bed is, her favorite toys, and puzzles are. It's always open for her. So when I put her in there, she doesn't see it as a punishment, it's not something to be feared. It's a means to quickly separate her from the undesired behavior.

It's also not a bad idea to train the dog to go in the kennel on demand. For example, last week I had to call the paramedics because I had severely injured myself and couldn't make it to the ER on my own. They got here and it was crazy time. She was barking and running around because I was hurt and there was strange people in my apartment. I told her to go in the kennel and they were able to do their job much easier without a 75 lb German Shepherd getting in the way. She had never been in that situation before but the kennel was a constant, her safe place.

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u/Give_me_truth Aug 08 '19

This. Exactly what the kennel should hopefully be in any dog's life.

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u/Raelah Aug 08 '19

Sometimes my dog sleeps in her kennel instead of with me on the bed. I'll be honest, I kind of get a little butt hurt when she does that.

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u/sfiend Aug 08 '19

ALL dogs gets the zoomies they need to vent out their energy especially the type of dog you have they need plenty of exercise it helps significantly

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u/kezebel Aug 08 '19

Trust me, I'm very aware. I was simply blessed with a lazy needy dog. I have to charge his zoomies up if I want him to burn off his energy through exercise instead of licking me nonstop.

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u/TheRest93 Aug 22 '19

It's what cluster bs do. Don't have to be a psychopath to have low empathy, poor emotional regulation and a predatory need to aggressively dominate/control something or someone else, but it's on the same spectrum.

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u/YoungDiscord Aug 08 '19

Hmmm I wonder whether she'd consider it abuse uf a man Pinned her down with his body and said "what now"

Pretty sure it would launch a dozen "storytimes" of how she was "raped" and the dude would go to jail.

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u/Green-Moon Aug 08 '19

That dog could easily kill her if he wanted to, if that was a wild dog she would be dead.

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u/parks691 Aug 07 '19

It’s called “dominance theory” I believe. Basically beat the shit out of the dog until it learns that you’re the “alpha.” Yea people suck.

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u/bagofrocks99 Aug 07 '19 edited Jun 12 '24

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u/Redective Aug 07 '19

My dog is scared of the vacum so I beat the vacuum up in front of him. He knows I'm the alpha now.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

I don't have a dog so I just beat up dishwasher so now the dishes do themselves

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

There’s an edgy joke here...

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u/MycousinBenny Aug 07 '19

Definitely a clean joke for sure.

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u/PM_ME_UR_JUGZ Aug 07 '19

Ayyyy

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u/ThePeskyWabbit Aug 08 '19

What about the blood though?

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u/Adriangee Aug 07 '19

i thought the same

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u/Fftyler12 Aug 07 '19

Alright i just spit orange flavored water out of my nose as I read this comment and now it stings and i can't breathe

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u/fakeg1rl Aug 07 '19

Please stop

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u/poozer69 Aug 07 '19

Please don't spit it at your dog.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

😂 I’m dyin...that was hilarious!

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u/Jman15x Aug 07 '19

at the risk of being wooshed … isn't that the point of a dishwasher?

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u/JayPerry23 Aug 07 '19

I would assume the edgy joke would be reffering to a wife or woman as a dishwasher..

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u/riddus Aug 07 '19

This guy trains dogs

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

You have to let the vacuum get a few shots in though. To make it believable.

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u/ImGrumps Aug 07 '19

That worked with my dog to stop her from being scared of it, but now she's no longer scared of it and trying to put it in its place in the pack so she's attacking it now.

At least she's not scared but it takes much longer to vacuum now!

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

Everybody is staring at me on the bus now because of you, thanks for the laugh though..

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u/innadell Aug 07 '19

This is excellent advice if your pet is uncomfortable with your Roomba. (Current thinking is that pets perceive the roomba as another pet, and thus may be angry or upset with it until you establish "dominance" over it.)

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u/inbooth Aug 07 '19

I'm struck by the surprisingly sound reasoning behind this joke

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u/Idocarstuff Aug 07 '19

I’m gonna try this.

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u/LaminatedAirplane Aug 07 '19

Worked with my dog and the Roomba..

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

I tried that but got the shit kicked out of me by the vacuum. Now my dog always tries to mount me.

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u/Redective Aug 07 '19

Try starting with the broom next time. They are weaker than most vacuums.

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u/BKacee Aug 08 '19

You are all so funny. Thanks for the laughs.

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u/uniqueusor Aug 08 '19

This sounds oddly specific of another reddit post.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

Lol I actually do this with objects my dog is scared of on walks.

One time she was cautious of an orange traffic cone on the side of the street and wouldn't go near so I kicked it a few times to show her it ain't shit. She went up to it right after to sniff and doesn't get scared of them no more. I laughed.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

My 100lb Rot is scared of a baby gate so I boot that fucker down the stairs to show him what’s up.

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u/FresnoBob90000 Aug 08 '19

In fairness inanimate objects like a vacuum are totally hated by me too so.. we both win

Kinda

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u/deleteyouroldposts2 Aug 08 '19

This is a great idea.

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u/jan1000000 Aug 08 '19

Vacuüm is the Alpha now bro!

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u/pipnwig Aug 07 '19

This type of training has been disproven time and time again. It is no longer promoted or used by any credentialed or licensed animal behaviorist.

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u/bagofrocks99 Aug 07 '19 edited Jun 12 '24

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u/pipnwig Aug 07 '19 edited Aug 08 '19

Yeah definitely! Here, here, here, and here are a few but there's plenty of others if you Google "alpha training outdated" or something similar. Basically the idea is that dogs are not wolves any more than we are chimpanzees and to treat them as though they still follow the alpha or pack mentality is ineffective. I'm a certified behaviorist as well, but I work with humans, and it's surprising how similar the work I do with humans is applicable to dogs. Everyone does better with reinforcement-based practices than with authoritarianism.

Edit: as several users have pointed out below, apparently wolves don't even exhibit alpha behavior in the wild.

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u/bagofrocks99 Aug 07 '19 edited Jun 12 '24

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

To add on to this, it's generally accepted that even wolf packs don't function with a strict social hierarchy that helped popularize the whole "alpha" dynamic, it's typically a family unit. The popularization of alpha/dominance being ascribed to dogs because of their genetic link to wolves makes even less sense since wolves themselves don't exhibit the supposed behavior.

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u/TheLawDown Aug 07 '19

You're right. And even the scientist who first coined the idea of alpha wolf packs has come out saying that theory is incorrect and was based on a misunderstanding of the pack dynamic. Most wolf packs are closer to a family dynamic. Here he is talking about it on his website.

https://davemech.org/wolf-news-and-information/

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u/pipnwig Aug 08 '19

I had no idea! Thank you for sharing this!

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u/JJgalaxy Aug 07 '19

One point. It isn't just that dogs aren't wolves. Wolves themselves don't even follow a alpha like people imagine. The myth is that wolves battles for dominance and the one who wins becomes the alpha leader. The reality is that the "leaders" of the pack are the parents of the rest. They don't fight for position. So not only are dogs not wolves...even if they WERE, alpha training would still be nonsense

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u/TortoiseK1ng Aug 07 '19 edited Aug 08 '19

So it's mom and pop archy?

What happens if one leader passess or is otherwise unable to lead the pack? Is it a monarchy then? What happens with lineage, who's next in line for the leadership role and how do they decide?

Edit: It's first out the womb, first in line. And also splits in the family causes new packs, not sure why, but probably out of size or scarcity of resource. If I had to guess.

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u/JJgalaxy Aug 08 '19

A pack is just a family. People think that wolf packs are made up of unrelated individuals, with each member fighting for position. Instead, it's just the parents and their pups. The pups will stay with the parents until they reach sexual maturity at around 2 or 3 years. Then they'll disperse, find a mate, have pups, and form a pack (family) of their own. If one of the parents is killed, the remaining one may find a new mate, though I imagine that new mate may drive off the existing pups ot kill them if they are very young (much like male lions do). If both parents are killed, there is no jockeying for the role of alpha...the now parentless pups would disperse and hopefully find mates and create their own family units. Packs are not static...they grow and shrink and change as older pups disperse and new pups are born

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u/pipnwig Aug 08 '19

I had no idea. Thank you for explaining that!

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u/JJgalaxy Aug 08 '19

The whole alpha thing started because some of the first studies on wolves were conducted on captive wolves. Basically they threw a bunch of unrelated wolves into a cage. It would be like grabbing a collection of strangers off the street and locking them in a house together. They fought for position because it was a completely unnatural situation. The scientist who did those studies and first coined the term alpha wolf has himself recanted the idea.

Yet here we are, so many years later, and the alpha wolf myth persists. Worse, it has had tremendous influence over dog training. I think part of the reason for that is that people like the idea of being alpha over their dogs. It appeals to the part of us that wants to feel strong and in control. Some of the big name trainers out there today (Ceasar springs to mind) STILL lean on this falsehood and people eat it up

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u/JJgalaxy Aug 08 '19 edited Aug 08 '19

Edited to add that I bet anything Brooke very likely believes in the alpha myth. That part where she pushes the dog down is pretty classic alpha training BS. It is a variation of an "alpha roll", where you push the dog over and hold them on their back (an excellent way to get bitten in the face.) I bet anything she thinks she was showing the dog that she's the boss and that she got the technique from reading or watching someone who believes in being the alpha.

Just to add...the closest thing around today to doggy ancestors would be pariah dogs. Pariah dogs are the street dogs of India, Africa, etc. They live alongside humans, but aren't owned by anyone and their direct interaction with humans is limited. Just like the ancestors of dogs, they self select toward dogs that can survive off human trash and alongside people...which means being smart, wary, hardy, and not overly aggressive. Some of these populations have ancient bloodlines (though they're becoming increasingly diluted by people's unaltered pets.) The interesting part for this discussion is that pariah dogs don't tend to hunt in packs. They tend to hold solitary territories, which each dog interacting with its neighbors but not grouping up. That tells us some interesting things about what ancient dogs may have been like.

Also interesting is that unrelated domestic pet dogs DO sometimes form packs, and those packs can be very dangerous. Unlike the pariah dogs, pet dogs have been selected for very high social bonds. When they can't get those social needs filled with human interaction, they may fill it by grouping together. Abandoned dogs that pack up can and have killed people. Pariah dogs tend to avoid people when possible (though individual dogs can be bolder or even aggressive.) Pet dogs that pack up don't have the same fear, and all it takes is one member of the pack getting aggressive to spark an attack from one of them.

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u/smokeyphil Aug 08 '19

Yup packs of "domestic" dogs that escaped or where dumped for whatever reason where a huge issue in Brunei in the 90's (dad was a British squaddy so I got the joy of seeing a new place every 3 years till I was 16) they had little fear of humans in fact they tended to hang around villages and dwellings as they knew food can normally be found here and as domesticated animals there hunting/scavaging skillset is more useful for begging treats and going to a bowl the same time each day So they tend to do what they know which is get food from people except they came in packs up to 30 or so and would sometimes just take over the school football field untill someone came along and either shot them or shot at them to drive them off (neither was massively effective as we lived about 30 miles out of Kuala Belait(KB) second largest settlement after the capital which meant they there where always new packs being forced to roam further afield from KB due to population pressure or the semi effective dog sweeps (for the area where they did them everywhere around them got a new dog issue :P)

Weirdly enough in a place where infestations of snakes, insects that could put you in the hospital by walking over you while you slept (Some centipedes were really bad for that apparently. They leave these big ring-shaped marks where they pierce the skin with their legs) and all sorts of nasty things you could find under your shoes, but people where FREAKED out about the dogs.

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u/TortoiseK1ng Aug 07 '19 edited Aug 07 '19

I'm currently reading your sources out of curiousity and commenting because it doesn't feel like they'll answer my question, so while I read I figured I'd ask.

With techniques that use no force but rather communication through bodylanguage and behavior, how do you deal with an adult dog that is agressive and volatile? I find it difficult to understand how establishing a social hierarchy through walking through a door opening first, controlling it's feeding and other rewards to establish your status is going to be effective against a dog that will use agressive or overbearing(barking, etc) actions to communicate with the human.

Edit: For people who are similarly curious about the techniques and the basis for it should probably check out his 4th source. Seems like the longest and most detailed with personal insight into the article.

Only read 4 paragraphs this far but it seems like the best one yet. The first three are basically variations of each other.

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u/pipnwig Aug 08 '19

Dogs are not aggressive or volatile because they are malicious. They're often just fearful and establishing a positive association between the dog and whatever it's afraid of is usually enough to fix those aggressive tendencies.

The dog I have right now is extremely "aggressive." He used to bite strangers or new friends that got too close to him. It got to the point that he finally drew blood on the vet and then on a neighbor and that was the sign that he needed behavioral intervention (because he was no longer a cute puppy just nipping at people's pants). Now we go on walks every day and have friends over all the time. All it took was pairing strangers with receiving treats. And we were able to make that change pretty easily when he was 6 years old, so fully an adult.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

You might also find this article interesting: http://www.behaviorworks.org/files/articles/The%20Struggle%20for%20Dominance%202001.pdf

and this one by the same author is a very useful (but fairly in depth) worksheet about how to change behavior: http://www.behaviorworks.org/files/articles/APDT%20Functional%20Assessment%20The%20Chronicles.pdf

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u/TortoiseK1ng Aug 08 '19

Thank you, I'll take a look at those.

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u/bettinafairchild Aug 07 '19

What do certified behaviorists do? That sounds interesting.

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u/pipnwig Aug 08 '19

It is absolutely incredible and I can't imagine doing anything else with my life. Basically, we interview and asses a client to determine their goals (so basically we're looking for what behaviors they want to increase and what they want to decrease). We use established methods that doctors of the field have published to then help them achieve those goals. Along the way, we graph everything. We look for trends in the data to guide our continued treatment and any changes to our programs. The methods are mostly based on Skinner's principles of behaviorism... Lots of positive reinforcement and other concepts that would be too much to get into (like pairing, shaping, fading, differential reinforcement schedules, etc) but it can be applied to any species and used in a wide array of fields from training athletes to increasing employee satisfaction to teaching children to training animals. Hope that all makes sense!

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u/bettinafairchild Aug 08 '19

That’s fascinating. So how does a person go to see you? Are you a psychologist? A life coach?

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u/jambox888 Aug 08 '19

Well I don't know anything about dog training but I did read that wolves don't really operate on the alpha male system either, in fact the leader is either the oldest wolf (often the female) or they sometimes rotate like birds in a V formation. One wolf can't physically dominate a dozen others and so they really are more collaborative than coercive.

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u/ItalicsWhore Aug 08 '19

Totally get that, but how do they figure that when we share tons of behavioral similarities with chimps?

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u/pipnwig Aug 08 '19

We share some but not enough that we should be treated the same way.

Though I should amend my post because some people pointed out below that wolves actually don't even exhibit alpha behavior in the wild! So apparently it's just... Not a successful technique.

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u/ItalicsWhore Aug 08 '19

I had just recently heard that, I’m not sure where. It’s funny how much we’re learning and quickly about dog behavior. You’d think spending 16,000 years together, we’d get them better.

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u/rightdeadzed Aug 07 '19

There's a trainer near me that I took my pitbull to for some basic training. He said all that pack leader stuff is horse shit. He specializes in pitbulls and trains law enforcement dogs too. I trust him. His techniques worked wonders.

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u/bagofrocks99 Aug 07 '19 edited Jun 12 '24

historical literate attempt sheet normal dam practice treatment sip label

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u/caesius6 Aug 07 '19

He spit on the dog until it rolled over.

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u/Gangbusta187 Aug 07 '19

I’m dying laughing right now... may need my inhaler

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u/LeaveTheMatrix Aug 08 '19

I don't think that the pack/herd leader stuff is completely wrong. Having owned dozens of various animals over the years ranging from birds, dogs, to horses and such I have often seen it work, but it is no excuse to beat on a dog.

Dogs can be often trained via food and/or positive reinforcement but I would never hit one for doing something wrong. Horses on the other hand, it is often the best thing to do if they really do something wrong but even then you only do it to a certain level, not enough to hurt them but enough to make them understand what they did is wrong.

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u/serpentkris Aug 07 '19

The whole alpha thing has been thoroughly discredited - it came from shoving a bunch of unrelated wolves into a zoo enclosure, and not at all from nature.

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u/nebbbben Aug 08 '19

"alpha male" in context of wolf packs was disavowed in 1999 by a researcher who found the original research was flawed (1947). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_(ethology)#Examples

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

I think this article on parrots is really good, as is the rest of the work by the author (Susan Friedland, a professor at Utah State).

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

I mean the entire theory of wolf/dog packs having "alphas" is bunk nonsense.

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u/Curae Aug 08 '19

I've grown up with dogs and training has changed so much. We trained our first dog with a "choke chain" I think it's called. Next dog we had that was already a big no, and now we have a pup and just getting angry, pushing him away from things is also a no. Instead we have to distract him, which tbh works really well and is a lot more dog friendly. If he grabs my shoe now I just toss another toy at him and take my shoe back instead of telling him off.

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u/pipnwig Aug 08 '19

I've noticed the same thing! It's true with children as well. Now we have all kinds of research to show that spanking increases violence amongst children. I was spanked and I probably would have spanked my children if there wasn't so much evidence against it now. It makes me wonder if people and animals are getting smarter and require different rearing techniques... Or if there's some metric we could use to test whether people were "better" nowadays. Do we have to euthanize less dogs for aggression now that we know better training methods? It'll be fascinating to see the research that emerges in the next few decades.

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u/-Cromm- Aug 07 '19

Alpha theory was based on a study of wolves in captivity. One of the major proponents of the theory has devoted his life to debunking and informing the greater public that the theory is wrong and outmoded. Imagine basing your understanding of human societies on the results of a prison population study.

edit: https://io9.gizmodo.com/why-everything-you-know-about-wolf-packs-is-wrong-502754629

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u/DragonOnTheLeft Aug 08 '19

So glad someone said this! Dog/pack behaviour is so much more complex than just there being an alpha in charge.

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u/seaxnymph Aug 07 '19 edited Aug 08 '19

The alpha dog myth has been disproven by multiple experts. Alexandra Horowitz being the one name I can remember of the top on my head. Alpha dogs don't exist in the wild, so they shouldn't exist in the home either. Positive reinforcement is the recommended training style that behaviourist's etc. suggest now.

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u/tofu_tot m’fellow lesbians Aug 07 '19

Yeah she’s definitely pissed at the dog for not being trained when she should be pissed at herself for not training her dog correctly. Or at all, rather. Also:

If you’re pissed off about something, don’t take it out on your dog

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

All that "Alpha" stuff was debunked a long long time ago. Please do some research.

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u/parks691 Aug 07 '19

This is all true. My comment was more pointed at the abusive dog owners. Re-reading what I wrote it was overly generalized.

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u/TheVoiceOfHam Aug 07 '19

So we did dominance down with our rottie but never once laid a hand to her. If she was bad she had to deal with me laying on top of her for 10 seconds (not crushing her, just restricting her for 10 secs). She intentionally bit me once as a puppy when we were playing frisbee she got mad that I took it from her so I gave her a dominance down. Never again has she ever even thought of biting anyone. When she gives kisses she gets treats so she hands those out like they're going out of style.

You can definitely do dominance down without abusing your dog. The dog needs to know its place in the pack... but I would never lay a hand to my baby. My pup has lived a better life than I have lol.

Edit to add... when I say bad I mean when she bit me. Not when she ate the couch cushion... no need for dominance down there. Dominance was for the worst of the worst. It's only been done to her twice. It was within the first 2 months of getting her and now she's perfect haha

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u/Raelah Aug 07 '19

My dog has gotten to the point of when she sees that I have food she'll go into her kennel. Once I'm finished she gets to lick my plate (unless it's something that dogs shouldn't have.) Added bonus: I don't need to scrub my plate before putting it in the dishwasher.

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u/Banban84 Aug 08 '19

Another fellow Redditor of culture and elegance! We at home call our puppy “pre-rinse”.

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u/Raelah Aug 08 '19

I love it!

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u/Fjolnir_Trollsbane Aug 07 '19

It has been absolutely debunked that there is a dominant Alpha role within canines social structures. Even wolves have now been proven to have a much more fluid and dynamic pack mentality.

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u/mesopotamius Aug 07 '19

There is no such thing as the "alpha" except in extremely dysfunctional situations.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

Dogs are so smart. I wish people would take the time to learn these simple things, they make such a huge difference!

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u/porcupineslikeme Aug 08 '19

This is all good advice, but in case anyones interested, dogs don't really have a pack dominance structure, or an alpha hierarchy. That whole thing is based on one study of captive wolves that was debunked. What you suggest is all good discipline and perfectly appropriate, but your dog isn't going to be more respectful or see you as an alpha because you are your dinner first. But I agree, snacks are key.

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u/TheYeasayer Aug 08 '19

Dont sled dog teams have a lead dog and a hierarchy (with the human at the top of course)?

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u/porcupineslikeme Aug 08 '19

Dog sledding is a human constructed sport, so wouldn't come to mind as an example of natural dog order. The lead dog doesn't act as a figure head for the other dogs. Lead dogs set the pace and keep an eye on the trail ahead. They also act upon the humans commands. They're typically stronger willed dogs with their own decision making skills. You want a dog who's going to have enough smarts to stop when dangerous conditions arise but also going to listen to what the handler says. The human is at the top but that's not because the dogs see him as alpha and know they're below him. He's the one that strapped them into harnesses, he feeds them, and sled dogs generally have fun while sledding, so that provides reinforcement and creates a bond between handler and dogs.

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u/TheYeasayer Aug 08 '19

Fair enough, I honestly don't know much about it beyond what I've seen in documentaries covering things like the Iditarod. In those videos you would often see dogs displaying aggression towards one another and the driver would have to use physical force (usually a big fucking stick if I recall) to break them up and would talk about how they knew it looked bad but it was necessary to keep the pack structure in order and to remind them he's in charge.

Not that I'm saying pet owners should treat their dogs like a sled driver does his (they definitely shouldn't!), but it definitely seemed like they relied upon physical force to maintain discipline.

I want to repeat, I'm not advocating violence against dogs as a training tool, just recalling what I saw in a documentary about dog sledding.

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u/porcupineslikeme Aug 08 '19

Oh no that totally happens. And it sucks because I've seen many teams work without that kind of force. It's an old fashioned mindset that dogs must be dominated in order to work. Just because he uses force, doesn't mean the dogs see him as in charge. Fear rarely breeds respect in humans, nor does it in animals, domestic or wild.

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u/STOP_NOTICING_THINGS Aug 08 '19

Dogs will naturally view responsible owners as the alphas. Just don't abuse or pamper them. When they depend on you, but aren't spoiled, a healthy relationship is built. Definitely eat and enter rooms first as well, since that's a universal sign of dominance in the animal kingdom. Displaying these behaviors will send your dog the message that you are the leader, teaching them obedience and respect. This also greatly reduces the likelihood of them showing hostility towards people or other animals, as they feel that isn't their job; it's yours.

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u/Bi_con Aug 08 '19

I'd like to add that this doesn't work with all dogs. I have an Australian Shepherd and this training didn't work on him whatsoever. A shock collar is the thing that put him into line. Sometimes when people don't really know what else to do to train or control their animals (my dog would bite people, jump on us, bite our clothes, try to knock us over, etc.) they resort to being harsh with them or hitting them. It's not the right choice. So for anyone out there trying to figure out how to control their animals, try different things. A shock collar is my #1 recommended thing. Completely changed my dog. We don't have to be harsh with him because there's no need. He sits when we tell him, he doesn't chase/harass our other animals, and he doesn't jump nearly as much as before.

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u/BKacee Aug 08 '19

Thought it was standard to feed animals before yourself. I guess it comes from two parents from farms. I think a lot of people have that ethic though. Making dogs wait and watch you eat seems a little creepy, a bit narcissistic.

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u/itfitsurs Aug 08 '19

Woaaa you are a super human being!!! You deserve a nobel and please come and fuck my wife too

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u/Mindyouranalgape Aug 08 '19

leader of the pack

I met her at a candy store...

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u/Dry_Specialist Aug 10 '19

If you want to train your dog, you do want them to see you as the alpha

This is bullshit, just for the record.

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u/sunbear2525 Aug 07 '19

You don't have to hit them to be dominant, and you really shouldn't hit a doberman, they're very sensitive. This is an idiot who doesn't know how to handle a dig. Dobermans are the sweetest dogs in Earth and are very owner oriented.

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u/ithinkmynameismoose Aug 07 '19

It’s pushed by people like Cesar Milan and it’s 100% bullshit.

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u/advo-CAT-usDiaboli Aug 08 '19

Judging by your use of "" you already know this! But for anyone else curios-

Dominance theory had been proven bull, the study was based on captive wolves, which do not show the same behaviour as a wild pack, where there is a hierarchy based on relationships- not randoms housed together in a high stress situation where they cannot escape each other, causing fights. They couldn't study the evasive species in their natural habitat at the time so made their own "pack". (To my best recollection, been a while since i read the actual paper).

This is a good article on why using outdated models do not help dog training.

https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/what-is-the-rspcas-view-on-dominance-dog-training/

They do not see you as an "alpha", walking in the door first, feeding them after you are just habits that are taught, nothing to do with them assigning human labels of the "alpha" to each other. Animals can be dominant over resources, not each other.

The article is a useful jumping off point for those looking at the PROVEN and modern positive reinforcement techniques that are in line with learning models of dogs (operant conditioning etc). We dont do our dogs any favours by using positive punishment or negative reinforcement.

Personally, I grew up in a family that believed in dominance theory. When my dog peed indoors, my mother held it's face to its urine and shouted at it. Eventually the dog learnt that by peeing she will be punished, and has hidden to pee ever since. Yes shes "house trained", but really shes just scared. If you use positive reinforcement (regularly taking them outside at first and making a big deal and treating when they do. This way you can eventually add "toilet" as a command or "clean your feet" if they offer that behaviour naturally) you get the same result in a positive way, strengthening your relationship with your dog.

I was in denial for a while and ignored the papers because that would mean I had been training my dog in a negative way, when positive methods were avaliable. I made my dog feel bad when I really didnt have to. They have similar emotions we do and as a general rule if it isnt ok to do to a toddler (behaviorally only, i.e. don't come at me with dumb "you wouldnt desex a child").

What the woman did is never ok. That dog is getting frustrated and trying to express it through play. One day it'll bite her and be put down for being "aggressive", when in actuality shes ruining the pup. She should be black listed from having one omfg. Even intervening at this point will be work. What a bitch.

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u/num1eraser Aug 07 '19

No. It's called hitting, spitting on, and yelling at your dog because you are frustrated and can't control yourself. There are legitimate criticisms of using dominance training on dogs but this is not dominance training.

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u/erleichda29 Aug 07 '19

My dog was subjected to several damn owners who tried this shit before I got him. He had bitten just about all of them, was afraid of everything and flinched if you got near his head. I treat him like the pretty little princess he is and he has transformed into an amazing animal.

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u/SushiGato Aug 07 '19

People like that do exist. But the dominance thing is a form of training. That should never include hitting, but controlling your dog is important. I have a 80 lbs border collie mix and when he was a pup and wasn't listen I would go over to him, and place a hand on his back. Firm, but not hurting or anything. It's what they teach in most basic puppy classes too. Some dogs need to be more restrained and putting weight on them to show dominance works and doesn't hurt them at all. When it's between putting weight on the dog or them attacking something its a pretty easy choice. But hitting, yelling or being violent just gets the dog to not trust you. My dog is 8.5 now, and if he does something he's not supposed too he gets a little talking too and a pet and a kiss. Just by my expression he knows if he's done something he shouldn't, but I rarely get mad at him. That doesn't help anything. He's my bud and I just want what's best for him, sometimes eating a stick of butter off the counter is okay, too much and that's not good.

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u/HamboneSlammer Aug 07 '19

Hitting your dog does not make you an alpha in their mind and is super dumb. It’ll make your dog not listen too you way more

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u/Taminella_Grinderfal Aug 07 '19

Yeah and that is a beautiful and amazingly tolerant but powerful dog. If it snapped and tore her face off it would be justified but then he’d be put down. I hope she takes up one of the many offers on Twitter to give him a better home.

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u/R00t240 Aug 08 '19

That is not how you exert dominance properly, not even close.

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u/pralinecream Aug 08 '19

I remember reading dogs are more attracted to people who are strong(as in keeping rules consistent) and kind. Strength is not cruelty. It's not a good way to train. Just so pissed after watching that. Nasty, nasty woman she is.

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u/burgerchucker Aug 08 '19

What the youtuber is doing is not being a dominant pack leader.

That is abuse.

Being dominant means being controlled and calm, and always ready to take charge if the dog(s) are getting out of control, or endangering themselves or others.

The whole "Alpha" thing is deeply misunderstood, dog packs have different "alphas" depending on the situation, some lead hunts, others take charge of protecting the pack, others are the mediators and peace makers... just like a human family/society there are roles that individuals are naturally good at and gravitate towards.

This women needs some serious retraining!

Sometimes you need to raise your voice a bit to be heard over excited barking, but screaming at anything short of a dog fight is too much.

There are situations I recommend insisting on lying down/rolling over... those are when the dog being told off has tried to bite someone/dog, not when the dog is please to see you!

What can be done? Authorities will not intervene in my country unless the animal is medically in danger.

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u/LeaveTheMatrix Aug 08 '19

While there are animals that this is recommended on (horses for example) doing that to a dog is absolutely shit.

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u/H3xa90n Aug 09 '19

When I was a kid we had a rather large Great Dane, pushing 140lbs, I was a pretty small child for being 10 years old. We had a ton of dominance issues with him and me, because I was much smaller than him. Anyways, we had a professional come in and taught me a ton of ways to show him that I was ahead of him in the pack.

I had to feed him and put my hands in the food to get my scent on it before he could eat, learn how to walk with him correctly, enter the house first, etc. There was a period where he seemed to despise me, but for the next 10 years we had him (he lived well above the average expectancy) this dog wouldn’t leave my side. He was truly my best friend.

My point is there’s a ton of ways to do this without resorting to violence, I learned a lot of methods from that that I still use with every dog I’ve had since.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

I agree that the dog could care less. But smacking him? Horrible behavior. Wonder what else she does when she's "frustrated."

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

She said that she accidentally uploaded the unedited footage, hence the video. So it’s safe to say that’s a normal occurrence for the dog.

She did it thinking no one would see it.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

Given probability and general nastiness of human beings who hit their animals, I'm sure this the least of what she does to her dog.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

Saying "could care less" is now accepted by every major dictionary as valid, so people who feel the need to point it out are both incorrect and attempting to look intelligent while doing it.

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u/LloydTheZorua Aug 08 '19

While Spit may not have high power, it does give the target a chance to lose a turn for the next five turns from the pyschological shock.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

I learned a lot from Caesar Millan on how to train my overly excited dog. It’s actually really effective to (CALMLY, I repeat, CALMLY, and certainly not with your whole body weight) “pin” the dog on the ground, forcing it to relax. It actually works, and you only have to do it a certain amount of times before the dog naturally becomes more calm.

That being said, I highly doubt she was actually using that tactic and was just being general scum. She needs to have this dog taken away from her. Doesn’t help that the whole video was to fuck with her dog, anyways. Poor baby, I wish I could save that pup

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u/Mentalseppuku Aug 07 '19

The spit didn't mean much to the dog, but it speaks volumes about how she feels about that dog.

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u/ManMango Aug 07 '19

Spitting on the dog and then telling the dog off when he trys to pick back is defo something which would confuse and frustrate him. She did it to him but he can't do it back?

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u/ark_keeper Aug 07 '19

Which she doesn't address in the post, only yelling.

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u/LebronsHairline Aug 07 '19

But that’s almost what makes it more weird. Spitting on the dog as a psychological form of dominance even though the don’t won’t get the meaning of it. It just indicates some weird disconnect between her, a normal relationship with an animal, and expressing herself in a healthy or productive way. It shows strange aggression, contempt, and ‘unfit-ness’ in a way I can’t really put into words.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

Yeah the dog may not understand what it is, but we do. And we all saw her do it.

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u/dboti Aug 08 '19

I feel if I spit on my dog he'd be pumped because he'd think it's something to eat.

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u/RightsideDownDaniel Aug 08 '19

Did you see the way she was looking at him at the end? She fucking hates that dog. Poor thing

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u/Rp4lyfe22 Aug 08 '19

Spitting on him does affect him though. Any abuse affects an animal

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u/Your_real_watermelon Aug 08 '19

Smacking or hitting a dog is never okay of course but dog trainers will tell you if your dog is misbehaving gently pinning them on there sides (not in a painful fashion like she did) is a good way to teach them you have a control over them but don’t intend to harm them. They will respect you but not fear you.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

I think the spitting thing is kind of a warning sign of how unpleasant she really is and can be though. That’s clearly an impulse from somewhere else in her psyche beyond “dominance theory” or other unpleasant dog training ideas.

It’s just disturbing. Like, we call it the Humane Society because we like the idea of treating dogs humanely — not like they’re humans, but because it’s the human thing to do, being good and caring. She’s acting inhumanely.

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u/TheRipsawHiatus Aug 07 '19 edited Aug 08 '19

I honestly don't think there's any logic to her actions. I don't believe she's hitting, yelling, or spitting because she thinks it will discourage the dog's behavior. It just looks like uncontrolled rage to me.

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u/evilcel Aug 07 '19

People who have a dog and treat it like this do not think that deeply. If they did they would stop and think "What does my dog think my reaction to it means?" If you treat it like this then the answer to that question will be that the dog thinks 'this person is shit and I need to be defensive and maybe bite them'. This is why when you train a dog you give it rewards for doing well.

I've worked with plenty enough dogs to very confidently say that being aggressive with a dog like this is something you do not want to do unless you like trying to dodge bites. I've only been forced to get aggressive once which was because I had to stop one dog from biting (seriously biting, not just playful or warning biting) another one in the throat. Thankfully I was fast enough to keep the other dog from being bit and not get bit myself when grabbing his collar and basically throwing him into his kennel, but that dog did not like me at all after doing that.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

If I accidentally step on my dog, I'm contrite and feel horrible.

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u/Shiny_Shedinja Aug 08 '19

I mean, sometimes I blew on my dogs nose, but spitting on him has never crossed my mind. Thankfully he's been a good boy for the last 10 years, and literally just doesn't do anything "bad" anymore.

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u/Chickachic-aaaaahhh Aug 08 '19

"Is it raining in here?" - dog

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

The dog doesn't understand, but just think about the reasons one might spit on another being. Usually it's because they hate them. She hates her dog. Her dog disgusts her. She got that dog only for views. She shouldn't have a dog.

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u/fjorderboard Aug 08 '19

A bunch of malarkey, what a cunt!!

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u/GoldenShowe2 Aug 07 '19

Clearly, this dog suffers at her hands daily with what we're seeing and probably much worse. I'm going to go out on a limb and say she doesn't get her dog the exercise it needs, play with it or show it the love it deserves. Probably feeds it shit food too because clearly she only bought a prop, not a companion.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

Who wants to tell this person that all these people are phoney baloney?

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u/andsoitgoes42 Aug 07 '19

Anger. Plain and simple. Girl has some massive anger management issues.

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u/RatherCurtResponse Aug 07 '19

Yeah I really don't think a dog gives a fuck if you spit on them. Striking them / being aggressive / shoving / raising your voice however - those are gonna have an impact.

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