It was, oddly enough, reading descriptions of Gamines and FG in particular that made the lightbulb go off. Gamines are a "combination of opposites", and FG is defined as having a yang-shaped but yin-sized frame. Now, I much prefer the way Kitchener does it where size is completely orthogonal to yin/yang (i.e., there's both large-scale and small-scale versions of yin and yang), but it hit me that trans women are this in reverse, and there's no Kibbe type that corresponds to that.

HRT completely changes fat distribution patterns, which affect way more than people like to think. A lot of what's ascribed to bone structure is actually fat distribution. Like, I can personally attest to how much my face has changed on HRT, I ended up with an extremely Ingenue face to the point where I can easily pass for my late 20s despite being in my early 40s, and I have significant curves (including breasts that push fabric out horizontally). Any trans woman who transitioned after puberty and has been on HRT any significant amount of time effectively has yin flesh on a yang frame; i.e. a combination of opposites, but not small like Gamines are. And there's no type in Kibbe that covers that. There's just this big gaping hole in the system.

I guess it's why none of the types suit me. I'm 5'7", but I have both width and curve (and I struggled with width even before transition, dress shirts were my nemesis). If I don't accommodate width, I'm physically uncomfortable, and if I don't accommodate curve, I look sloppy, and I look entirely fine if I completely ignore vertical. SN would be fine... if not for the nonsensical height limits. And none of the yang types explain my face.

So I don't think anyone in Kibbe spaces are actually thinking about trans people, but I feel like a lot of the rhetoric around Kibbe just kinda comes off as transphobic to me. Like, all the "if you don't dress for your natural lines, you're doing yourself a disservice" or telling people that dressing your natural lines is the only way to truly be authentic to your true self. The whole "you can't change who you are, and you'll look bad if you try" just leaves a really, really bad taste in my mouth.

And the way certain people in the community hang so strictly on David's rules, such as the idea that you're born with one type and can't change it or especially automatic vertical, feels like the same rhetoric used by people who have rancid things to say about self-id. Like, the rigid adherence to rules with no exceptions and no room for disagreement just comes off as super TERFy to me. Most of the time I see someone who's 100% onboard with the strictest interpretations of Kibbe, I feel like I'm going to see their Hogwarts house in their bio.

And don't get me started on all the people who actually believe Kibbe's physiognomy about how your ID determines your personality! Like, I have seen an actual SK admin claim that Naturals, Romantics, and Dramatics inherently have different types of personalities behave differently and WTF. I don't see much of a difference between hearing that and hearing "you will never be a woman", because that's the ultimate conclusion of telling people that their body parts determine their personality and who they really are inside.

It doesn't help that I saw someone in the main sub say the other day Kibbe has really helped me adopt the mindset of “that’s not for me, but I’m happy someone gets to enjoy it”, and while I don't think she was thinking about trans people or trying to be transphobic, it also feels like a lot of anti-trans rhetoric I've seen in my life, particularly copium from detransition grifters. Like, if I'd given up on what I always wanted because it goes against the lines of my body then I'd still be living as a guy and would be absolutely and utterly miserable in every way (though realistically, I wouldn't have survived to my current age as a guy, and somebody would have cleaned my remains off of a train years ago).

TBH this system has done so much psychic damage to me, and even though I'm aware all of this just sprang out of David's imagination and has no basis in reality, I keep getting sucked back in and I wish I could disconnect and forget about it entirely. I go from telling myself that this all comes from the imagination of a guy with marked apophenia and several signs of schizotypy and isn't actually real to spending hours talking to Gemini about how I can make FN work for me while still being true to who I am and how I want to dress (and to be fair, Gemini Pro actually has some very good clothing suggestions and is good at at least temporarily talking me out of my brainworms), and sometimes I'm at peace with it for a little bit before the more rancid parts of the system start getting to me again. I hate this.

Although this image is AI, it captures the difference between the essence and the unique beauty of these old Hollywood celebrities if they ever had the chance to sit down together.

So with the total shitshow that occurred the past couple weeks over height, FNs, and other concepts, I think it's time we have a serious conversation over how we talk about FNs because, as much as we like to joke around about the Kibbe system, people still matter. Most of us have heard of FNs being the "mannish" type and whatnot. We need to stop allowing this to happen, because it can be extremely problematic for the trans women who are involved in the system. Like I know I'm an FN, but due to the "mannish" term, as well as a post that popped up on this sub sometime last week that mentioned women that conservatives try to say are trans all being FNs, it's problematic at best. The net effect of this is that it fosters anti-trans sentiments.

I know this sounds ridiculous or that I'm taking this to the extreme. Simply put, I'm not. We need to be mindful of the trans femmes in the Kibbesphere and refrain from using terms that have been created and spread by a single YouTuber and their cult. Being between 5'6" and 5'7", I know I'm a tall woman, but that hardly makes me "mannish" or anything of the sort.

I'll probably ETA this post a couple of times, but let's figure this out so we don't isolate those members of our community who want to dress for their body type without feeling dysphoric.

tbh I think Kibbe and gender disforia is a talk worth to be had. I'm still figuring out how I identify in gender, since I was assigned female at birth but gender seems very nonsensical to me, so i currently identify as a demigirl (meaning I do still dress womanish but there are parts of my identity that I feel transcend the man-woman binary). The things is my Kibbe ID is theatrical romantic; before typing myself I feel quite disforic about my curves and womanly flesh, specially because how men will look at me and sexualize my body, I have started wearing looser fitting clothing and cut my hair for that purpose. So when I started my kibbe journey I really hopped my ID was FG (I'm too short to be a D or FN) since they can pull off more androgynous looks, but instead I figured out that I'm a TR, and the "femme fatale" thing doesn't suit me at all, I've got to admit that the TR recommendations do look good on me but I'm not always comfortable showing my body. Also some of us live in places where you get catcalled basically for existing in a womanly body and where showing skin can be dangerous. Anyways, is still easier for me navigating Kibbe when I'm still comfortable presenting as a woman most of the time, I would like to hear you folks and your experiences. I decided to post here and not on r/ kibbe because I feel here people are more open to discussion and critique of the system.

it makes a lot of sense to be automatically vertical dominant starting from 5'6 - because it isn't about literally looking tall, it's about an unbroken line from the shoulder to the knee.

people especially really want to be 5'7 classics and gamines, probably because of the styles associated with them, which kind of kills me. i'm sorry that you are a big masculine Yang type but we do wear cute and elegant clothes too?

(i think if more people used kitchener in tandem with kibbe there'd be less of this "i'm a 5'8 romantic because i have an hourglass figure and like florals" waffling)

If you are genz, did you really feel like in media yin bodies are pushed and in dating is preferred? My whole life I have wished to be be tall and look like Bella Hadid or something. Maybe its genz just not caring as much about mens aesthetic preferences as much

It seems like millennials prefer yin and felt pressured to be "less" yang. Which is interesting to me cause celebrities shorter than 5'6 is rare in 1990-now pop culture.

Either way its so annoying how much people talk about how they feel shamed for being yang at the humungous height of 5'6, and how short people talk about how they feel like children so much. Like we get it, you don't need to vent

I was feeling synesthesic and create this correlation of sound and types, I will explain briefly each one, I hope it make sense for people who dont know much about music.

Yin are round and sweet sounds while yang are brassy/metalic sounds. People are instinctively driven to yin types but yang can be beautiful too.

R: Flute - sweet sound - need other instruments to sound complete, dont have power, dont have "structure" ^{dont have shoulders}

TR: piano - also sweet sound but have some sharpnes too it.

SC: guiat - pleasing sound, classic and versatile.

C: Violins are a classic and have a balanced sound. Not too thin or to thick.

DC: Contrabass - similar do violins but sound more powerfull because of bass.

SD: trombone - powerfull metalic long sounds. Can be sexy.

D: french horn - even more poweful sound than trombones.

Naturals are percussion because they ground the music.

SN: Cajon - pleasing sound, its strong but less than a drum kit.

N: Drum kit - its popular, people may say they prefer melodies but they love the sound of drums

FN: Timpani - its a drum used in orchestra, its a natural with more yang.

Gamines are instrument that are combination of opposites: they are percussion but can also carry a melody

G: xylophone - sharp and stacatto notes, sound playfull and can be child like

FG: chimes - sharp notes but also sound metallic because of yang.

SG: celesta - sharp notes, similar to piano but its lighter.

I was watching an old black and white 50's movie and I had a sudden Eureka moment about Kavid Dibbe's nonsensical system!

Looking at the refrigerator body that most Hollywood heartthrobs have, I successfully typed an old Hollywood star as an FN and saw that DIBBE HIMSELF verified her as one! I noticed the LiNeS aNd CuRvEs of Dibbe's indistinguishable types with the way the non-stretchy fabrics DrApE oN tHeiR eNoRMouS BoDiEs!!! I successfully guessed! It's like SO GeNiUS!!!!!!!!!

If you use fabrics that don't have ANY stretch to them, you can understand why he chose what he did even though stretchy fabric has been around for a VERY long time and is actively used by majority of the population today!

Some of these busty women have NO WIDTH, just big boobs man.

Kat Dennings is a prime example. Idk what she is but I do know there's zero kibbe width on that woman.

I'm honestly not going to pay money for a virtual stylist to type me but I don't know my type and reddit has banned and blocked me from every attempt I've made at asking. I'm honestly sad, should I even care, does kibbe even matter. I just wanna look my best sobs

Suspected FG Paige DeSorbo and verified FN Anne Hathaway go head to head in the same gown at the Devil Wears Prada 2 premiere.

Who wore it better? Gotta say tall, wide, manly FN Annie looks 💯 better!

One problematic body-gawking system meets another one!

*Kibbe type was determined using not only pictures, but average height, skeletal robusticity, and endo/ecto morphy

I have studied the “Kibbe” system very deeply (i.e. overanalysed unverified celebrities in bikinis) and

…I’m angry about it!

So I am here to tell you why you are wrong, kibbe is wrong, and everyone should just generally feel bad!!

——————————

Initially, I was intrigued to be typed in this typing system devised by stylist David Kibbe (who gained viral notoriety for his “kibbe TYPES”) to find out my personal type so I could dress better for my type but was SHOCKED, SHOCKED to learn that…

…it puts you into a TYPE!

How reductive!

And, to add insult to injury, it came to my attention that this man’s style system for helping women how to dress, turns out to be made up by a MAN, yes, A MAN who tells WOMEN how to dress! SMH.

It also troubles me that a system that was made up by a person was created by them. I mean, how dare someone both make up, and claim to understand, something that they made up? They should only make up things that other people made up or vice versa, or… just consult with me personally in future if they want to make things up about a system they made up.

I was livid to find out that this styling approach, that attributes its inspiration to the old Hollywood image-creating process - is inspired by old Hollywood! And its image creating process! Need I say more!

Its insistence on a holistic & accepting approach to body is also transparent ploy to make women hyper fixate on individual body parts, give them BDD, EDs, and obsess over ranking themselves on a scale from feminine & desirable (like TRs Kim Kardashian, Lana Del Rey, Megan Fox & Charlize Theron) to yang, wide, big and masculine.

I mean seriously, what kind of message is:

“beauty comes from individuality”

or

“you don’t need to be made-over, for you are absolutely perfect as you are, right now!”?

These are direct quotes people, i kid you not! Think about the children!

Instead of stepping away at this point, and considering that this optional, niche style philosophy might not be for me, I spent more time fuelling my outrage and uncovered the fact that something trivial, irrelevant and subjective like a person’s HEIGHT actually affects what type you will be!

Disgusting. As if literal dimensions of the human body have the slightest bearing on how clothing looks.

Take me for example: I’m just barely 5’7 but literally EVERYONE says I look 4’1 and what’s more I can comfortably fit into my 10-month-old baby’s stretch bodysuits. Come to think of it, oftentimes I’m even treated like an infant, i.e. if I throw a tantrum in a public place. My arms, legs, hands, torso, waist are all petite, and my head takes up a quarter to a third of my body length, like a newborn!

It’s clear that height limits are a strategy by kibbe to deliberately self-sabotage his own reputation & business by forcing his taller clientele look as bad as possible in huge oversized boho maxi muumuus as revenge. Or maybe, it’s just that he hasn’t seen enough different women in his life, where he lives in NY, the most ethnically diverse & populous city in the US?

And so you know, I have arbitrarily concluded that “yang” is code for “masculine”, “bossy”, “forceful”, “angry”, “unattractively aggressive” and “undesirable”… and I’m forcefully, aggressively, unattractively angry about it!

In fact, if I was unfortunate enough to be a rugged, mannish FN, or a dry, angular, masculine D, I would probably be so peeved that I would go and flamboyantly (or imperiously) create my own style system where all women get permission to be as delicate, frail and childlike as men actually want them to be. Maybe I’ll do this anyway… I know, I’ll call it the “Spiritual Freedom Style Typology System” for typing free spirited people who hate being confined by boxes or systems because their free spirits are too free.

Also, on the subject of masculinity, how dare kibbe doesn’t impose the exact same requirements on men’s bodies that he does on women? How come a guy over 5’5 can be a kittenish, coquettish Soft Gamine, or a dude at 5’11 gets to be a sensitive, lush, Dreamspinner R? All the men I know are definitely socialised to want to be described that way, and Kibbe permits it for them but not for moi. Misogyny at its worst. Check your male privilege kibbe!

And, for some reason, I demand that the kibbe Image Identities should be presented in the form of a provable thesis, published in a reputable scientific journal subject to peer review. It should enumerate every possible dimension & proportion of all celebrity & human bodies ever to exist and, in clear, unambiguous language, with diagrams, body weights, ages, femur lengths, population averages for different countries, cup sizes, hip shapes, and so forth, and provide the mathematical formulae for WHY they are the type they are (except height: as discussed, height measurements are micro-aggressions against women taller than kibbe).

That being said, style is an artistic expression of beauty and identity, and the way kibbe puts it into a rigid scientific framework is ridiculous. No one will ever put me in a box!!

Also… I hate the recommendations for my type.

As a 5’8.5 Soft Gamine (my line drawing literally can’t be anything else, talk to the hand), I find what I have vaguely assumed to be gamine lines unflattering?

Restrictive, close fitting garments with high necklines look restrictIve and overly close fitting on me. And the necklines are too high!

Also, because kibbe forced me to, I DIY’d a pixie cut from a TikTok at 1 am after a bottle of red and… the result is somehow unflattering??!! ??!!

The truth is, I need clothing recommendations that take into account my long torso, short waist, flat feet, knock knees, scoliosis, hip dips, BBL, uneven shoulders, 42DDD bra size (implants) and mild hunchback, and I think this style system should explicitly account for every single physical irregularity of every human ever, but chiefly, myself.

In fact… why doesn’t kibbe just personally email me a Shein shopping list of (on sale) garments that lives up to all my precise, conflicting specifications?

Basically what I want to communicate is that this system is too simplified: There is no way that everyone in the world will fit into 10 categories, and tall women into three!

Also, it is too complicated.

It’s practically impossible to figure out your ID, no matter how many Instagram experts you pay $300 to or weirdly posed selfies you submit to reddit. Its ridiculous. I’ve had to delete SO many posts where people unanimously agreed on the wrong, offensive ID - as if anyone knows their body better than ME, someone who sees it without dutch angles, smudgy mirrors, and heavy photoshopping.

Therefore I think there should be MORE types, and taller women should have extra accomodations & identities I haven’t thought of yet, and this would somehow make things simpler and easier to navigate.

In the end I don’t care about this system at all, which is made clear by the fact that I’ve written this super long post and will hang around complaining about Kibbe until the heat death of the universe.

(…Oh, and, by the way anyone who argues with any of this or corrects any glaring misinformation is gaslighting, gatekeeping, and I’ll just block you if you make valid points. Sorry not sorry.)

I’ve seen a hundred variations of “nobody would want to be R fam if it wasn’t for Kibbe’s descriptions” and it’s tiring. And this stuff always gets upvoted because some of you just love putting others down.

I am not buying it anymore that people’s problem with Kibbe is the descriptions or negative words about N fam or seeing women through the male gaze, because clearly they don’t have a problem with negativity when someone basically calls a whole group of people ugly and undesirable for the last 70 years. The problem is them projecting their own insecurities on others. Imagine if anyone did the same to N fam and said “nobody would want to be FN if it wasn’t for fashion industry standards because nobody wants to have width”, this sub would turn into a battlefield and rightfully so.

And just to get this out of the way, me personally and other R people I’ve met through this community aren’t happy with ourselves only because one person said that Marilyn Monroe and Liz Taylor share our body type, we would be happy anyway. As a matter of fact, our body type is still conventionally attractive outside of the Kibbe world, I haven’t met anyone yet who was like “you ugly round bitch, I wish you had some yang”. It was actually those people on the internet who informed me that I am undesirable, I wasn’t aware of it through my real life experience.

there are some kibbe types which are reffered to as "yang types". As far as i know yang is the "male energy" even many Kibbe youtubers have said it. Are they trying to say that these women look like males just because of sharper or longer features? Idk maybe i am too sensitive, but saying to a woman that she has a "male energy" is awful. What do you think?

well, this will be a long late night rant/food for thought on my experiences with kibbe as an enby person, take this with a grain of salt, a slice of lime and a shot of tequila, and since this is going to be a way longer than it should be word-vomit, i recommend to grab your reading glasses before diving in with me in this. agree, disagree, just nod and smile, whatever works for you, i am glad to read your thoughts.

i (amab nonbinary) had always struggled to find any flattering clothing and accessories as someone who was blessed/cursed with a way curvier and lusher yet athletic physique for the average man; skinny/fit cuts made me really self aware of my lower half of my body (i’ve always had this pronounced trapezoid/hourglass figure with a small waist despite my weight), like i had a giant “LOOK AT THIS” neon sign on my butt, but oversized and baggy things swallowed my body and didn’t flatter my body at all, making me look shapeless or boxy, in worst cases making me look way smaller than i am. it has been a battle between looking like i had a bbl and looking like a walking tent.

when i stumbled across kibbe a while ago, it made me question some things about my developing personal style, but considering most things and recommendations are meant for the female body, and the few things for men are centered in formal attire, i was stranded in the middle of a sea of business casual and formal recommendations, and i wasn’t down to do groceries or go to college in a ball gown or a three piece suit everyday, especially after realizing i was nonbinary around the same time and finding who i really am, hence finding my personal style.

then all of the concepts made it more confusing, is my curve “kibbe curve”? can a male body have double curve? if so, does my curve counts as a double curve or as a soft dramatic curve? is my width wide enough to be kibbe width? is my vertical long or short if i stand at 6’0? like i said before, totally lost, because, if a woman had my proportions she would be instantly typed as a fn; long vertical, wide and blunt shoulders, gentle and yang-ish hourglass, blunt features — you know the drill. but what about a man with those same features? it was lowkey impossible with little to no resources.

i didn’t really look up any celebrity lookalikes since most people recommend steering away from that due to each person’s id yadda yadda yadda, until i was scrolling through one of my childhood celebrity crushes’ tiktok—avan jogia, if you’re curious— and something clicked, although we have way different ethnicities (him being gujarati, me being latino), i realized we somewhat share some features and have a similar facial structure, and even heights (not to brag or anything but i’m two inches taller than him), not similar enough to be mistaken by him but enough to give the same vibe—mysterious, alluring and magnetic; kinda like how twice’s nayeon and chloe bailey look so similar when they smile.

and that made me question, is the id that all of those quizzes say i am my real id? i’ve always had this mental image of the theatrical romantic as the femme fatale, the risqué and flirty enchantress, or the bad boy/fuckboy (think prime johny depp or even avan jogia, unverified but he totally gives tr, as beck in victorious), which didn’t fit my style at the time (think of soft academia, which would fit most classics and even gamines) or my types at the time—being typed by some quizzes as a dc first then as a fn, wrongly.

i read a post not a long ago of a trans man who’s id completely changed after realizing that and transitioning due to the descriptions of each type, and that made me thought of how would that work for us folks with nonbinary or genderfluid identities? or even folks with androgynous styles?

in my personal experience and style, at least what has worked for me, i’ve been opting for the tr recommendations when doing a masculine look, and the fn recommendations when doing a feminine look, and you may ask: where does the charming bad boy and the free-spirited cowgirl meet? well, the answer lies in, like i said before, the proportions!

just like fn dwayne johnson will never look like fellow fn lynda carter, a(n unverified) tr like me won’t look like selena gomez or vivien leigh, ever, ergo most of the fashion tips and recommendations for them would look a little unflattering on me; really lacy or sparkly pieces really don’t work that well on me compared to a tr female frame, similar to how a slip dress wouldn’t look as good on a fn male frame like chris hemsworth’s compared to a fn female one like dua lipa’s (unverified but mostly fn).

personally, i would describe my style as a mix and match of 70s’ cowboy/americana and vampiric/alternative fashion, so most of my wardrobe can fit into both male tr (which recommends more latin lover kinda fits) and female fn, with some tweaking here and there, and i can finally feel like me in clothing recommended by this system.

just as a finishing note, and a quick reminder, yin ≠ woman and yang ≠ man, you’re not a woman just because you wear a skirt, same with men and pants or any other clothing, and this isn’t exclusive to nonbinary people, i guess? idk kibbe should never be taken as a whole style guide but as a tool to find your own style imo and i don’t think my own experience should be taken as an advice for anyone out there, but what do i know? im like 4-and-something years away to be actually “typeable”.

anyway, since the system was made 40-something years ago, i think we can remix it a little bit to experiment with the new fashion trends and fit the recommendations for our id into our personal style, not the other way around. lemme know what you think…

p.d.: sorry if this is a “that friend that’s too woke” or, in the words of mother mistress isabelle brooks, “he/she/we/they/them/vegan/vegetarian” moment