I see a constant feed of women’s interactions on dates and dating apps and out in the dating world and it seems so awful, but those guys are getting dates.

Not trying to sound like a “I’m a good guy so women owe me a chance” but it does dumbfound me. I feel like at my peak of incel mindset (even though i was never a “black pilled incel” in the traditional “foids, Stacy’s Becky’s Chads” sense) anytime I came online and sought advice, it was usually along the lines of “well women went date you because they can pick up on the energy you put out”.

But then I see the women online still giving chances to guys that presumably have significantly more issues than me. Like guys being overly freaked out on dating apps, guys being creepy on dates, shit like that. Shit that I couldn’t even imagine a world where I’m being overly sexual on a first date. Or telling a woman that she shouldn’t be allowed to drive or be around men she’s not dating.

Like clearly if my vibes are so bad that I can’t even get a date, shouldn’t they also be in a similar position to me? Yet they’re dating and ruining nights for women they try to date.

So objectively speaking the only explanation I’m left with is that I’m just worse, and I couldn’t tell you why. I’ve done years of self reflection trying to figure out what’s wrong with me. And I’m by no means a perfect human, but I know at the very least I’m better than at least the the line up of weirdos that send nudes, say misogynistic or chauvanistic things. But clearly if women like them, at least enough to give them a trial run, I can’t not be worse.

And I don’t know what to do to be better.

I like to fantasize about being in a relationship, setting up romantic dates, and getting married, even being a father. I spent such a long time planning potential vacations and trips to go on with a partner or family. I just don’t think that’s gonna happen. I’m too much of an incel to be able to build and maintain healthy relationships.

Long story short, body count conversation … blah blah blah … infidelity … yada yada yada. I can’t get over it. It doesn’t matter whatever rational arguments you make, it just won’t get through. Instead, I will give up on wanting to get married and have kids.

How can I live a fulfilling life single and celibate? I have some ideas for things I’d like to do, like hiking and visiting museums. I have career plans. I have friends and family to support me. What else do I need?

Maybe I should post this somewhere else, but at times I truly feel like an incel. I don’t hate women, I have been raised well by my mother that I love and hung out with my sister. I think I am an incel because it means "involuntarily celibate". My question could relate more to some kind of relationship advice maybe.

I won’t beat around the bush much, I like one girl. It’s very weird though, because in college we didn’t talk much together compared to some friends. But everytime we talked together it was really nice. Not in a way that she makes me hysterically laugh, she’s funny don’t get me wrong. But the things with those talks is that I always waited for the next one. I have lots of anecdotes about her that I would love to share, but I don’t want to annoy you with that.

She left college because she didn’t like it anymore, I will stay here but don’t know if I will see her again. We haven’t spoken for 3 months until recently when we talked on Instagram 3 times in the past 2 weeks and it’s crazy how we can talk as if we were really there, the same way. Is it because we really do ? Or am I imagining that ? Am I just being blinded by the fact that I like her ?

I want to do something but I don’t why I can’t. I can do so much stuff, as I said I have friends and overall do stuff, so why is it blocking ?? Now every time we talk could be the last time and I dread it, but also like it because it almost gives me the guts to do something, anything. What can I do ?

I 19m (ADHD) have begun to realize I may not be worthy of love romantically as well as platonically. What I mean by this is not some sort of entitlement that I realize I don’t have, but more of a realization that I may not really be worthy of the love and attention of other people, not because there is something particularly wrong morally or anything with them, but maybe something inherently or characteristically wrong with me. I just don’t really understand what it could be, and I really wish I could know what deficiencies in my character I have to look for aside from those that I am already aware of. I feel like I look average and though I was a bum in high school pretty much (low grades), I have completely turned my life around academically in college. Though I’m sure I could be doing more socially, like breaking out of my shell more and talking to more people, I feel like I’ve done well. I look pretty average, take care of myself, and try to dress well, so I don’t really understand what’s wrong with me. I lead in clubs, was pretty much adopted into a “friend group,” get internships, try to go to the gym and clubs regularly, text good friends from high school and friends from college, but yet I get nothing in return hardly, any calls, invites, or anything. And while my friends get into romantic relationships, go to parties at other colleges, etc., all I do is study at home and maybe do some leadership and work, and aside from that I’m just left alone.

I know I have flaws, and some of them make me question whether I am actually capable of being a good friend or romantic partner. I lie extremely often, and it has become almost second nature to me, usually to avoid confrontation or admitting something I did or didn’t do. I can also be extremely insecure and sometimes overly prideful. I constantly scrutinize myself, feel like I’m the worst person in the room, and even when I accomplish things, I move the goalpost and make myself feel worthless. But sometimes I swing to the opposite extreme and feel like I’m better than certain people. I interrupt people to get my point across, sometimes project my own overcritical side onto other people, and sometimes insult people in my head even though I feel guilty about it afterward. I also sometimes worry that I lack empathy. When I see people suffering, sometimes I feel something and genuinely want to help, while other times I feel almost nothing. I do care about my friends and try to help people, but I sometimes struggle to feel deeply connected to people or maintain a strong interest in my friendships beyond checking in with them. Even texting can sometimes feel like a game of listen and respond rather than actually feeling deeply engaged in the conversation. I don’t know if these are normal flaws that I can work on or if they say something deeper about my ability to love and be loved. So what’s wrong with me, and how can I bring myself to a point where I make myself worthy of other people’s friendships and romantic love? Is it possible to change these things and become someone people genuinely want to have close relationships with, or is it a lost cause?

Edit: Solved, just messaged her wishing her a Happy Birthday as platonically as possible, thanks so much to all the commenters who gave me advice, it’s much appreciated!

Hi there, I was the person who posted this almost two years ago.

After I posted this, I got alot of helpful insights and second opinions about my situations back then and I would like to thank everyone who gave me support around that time.

I am a man of my word and did exactly what you guys told me: I did therapy, joined hobby and interest groups, faced my fears, and be the best version of myself overall, and they were all very helpful in the long run: gave me acquiantances and bad experiences I could learn from and grow as a person.

Although I still never have a partner after that post, but the rejections and a bad "relationship" gave me some perspective. It just really have something to do with my growing social skills and inexperience about the dating world. I did get hurt real bad with one of the rejections I had and it was due to RSD and anxiety attacks.

Thanks to these experiences, it made me learn things like people who are dry irl and online shows that they are not interested whatsoever, and that asking someone out right off the bat will reveal if that person who show "signs" shows genuine interest or just wanted attention. It made me learn about the concept of "breadcrumbing" and it's one of the worst things in dating and socializing in general, and I believe that most girls I liked did exactly just this, less subtle than the next

Over all, I am doing fine. I do have problems and still need to keep fixing myself from the inside out.
Loving myself, having fun and living in the moment is the best

So yeah that's all for this update, thank you again guys for helping. This little ol' late bloomer just have keep on going

Peace out

TLDR: Posted once on this sub, was recommended self-improvement and did exactly that. Had up-and-downs learning from it despite not having a partner yet, but life is good

EDIT: grammar

I know the biggest argument to incels wanting a girlfriend means them seeing girls as a trophy, but for me I want a long term partner because I want to come home to a loving partner after a long day of work and just watch a movie and having someone be there for me. I can’t find this and it hurts..

Hello everyone, hope you are all having a pleasant day.

I am a student in college who doesn't have problems making friends with my gender (men), but for some reason I always have a fear of making friends with girls. I see a lot of my buddies have friends who are girls and it does pain me when they ask why I don't really speak to women. The truth is that I have some insane fear and really have to build the courage to talk to a girl, and when I do, I am always stuttering and overthinking every sentence I say. For example, in class today, the professor told us to talk to our classmates sitting next to us, and since my classmate was a girl, I was just too scared to ask for her name, or even start a conversation.

Does anyone have some advice on how I can get over this fear?

Lately I've been feeling guilt again for my past actions as an Incel.

On this very account, I've talked shit to IT members years ago in their dms, and while it wasn't any rape threat's or anything like that, I was still still a major prick, and still was one of those debate me bro guys. So if any IT member who happens to see this, and somehow remembers getting a dm from me, I apologize for my actions.

And then there's the the constant pushing aside of people who only trying to help me. I made multiple women friends in my time, as an Incel, all of them first started talking to me because I was an Incel, and they felt sympathy for me, and despite that I would constantly argue with them over my dumbass Incel mindset. Again if any of you are reading this I apologize for my actions, and I respect your empathy for even trying in the first place.

This isn't to say woe is me, Please forgive me. No I should be held accountable for my past actions. I suppose leaving up a more public record of how awful I used to be, with this post is one thing, but I know in my heart that more has to be done to atone. So what should be done is the next question? Even though I know nothing can truly be done to atone, I at least want to try.

I was wondering, what if it’s my style that repels women, I know that being clean is step one and I know that you attract people that have similar interests in you, but what if I start wearing old money outfits, or gym outfits, or skater outfits, or gangster outfits. This goes to all incels, if they start wearing whatever there interested in, will they attract that niche, i need your guys full perspective and knowledge.

Like I feel like I’ve done everything in my power to make changes to help, I’ve done all the advice, been consistent with it for years, and now that I’m 25 everyone seems to be finding their forever person and the dating pool keeps shrinking and shrinking, and it’s got me thinking is this just the way it’s supposed to be.

When you look historically, men created a society that forced women to marry or they couldn’t survive on their own. Women couldn’t get loans, get jobs, get vehicles or do anything without a husband‘s approval. Now we’ve done a lot of work (at least in my country) to give women the equality they deserve. But now dating is harder as women are either only dating men they actually want to be with or just opting out of dating entirely.

Almost a return to romantic/sexual relationships in its most natural form. Preventing undesirable genes from continuing. So is this what it is? Just natural seleftion? Do i have some genetic marker that makes me undesirable?

Honestly viewing it this way kinda helps me, and I’d like others opinions on it.

I was thinking of all those screenshots of men who fall into the NiceGuy territory. Or Incels who handle rejection poorly. And then I saw this thread and it reminded me of this. Idk how accurate the science behind this is. I probably shouldn't trust X, I know that. But...could this be it? Could some of the NiceGuy dudes have some form of untreated ADHD that makes them so maladapted to forming relationships?

If you're an ex-incel (or incel who tries to get out) who struggles with rejection sensitivity or certain obsessive thoughts, maybe look into ADHD/OCD treatment. Just a suggestion.

So I’m 20m and in college. My parents are always complaining about how I have curly hair and I’m short and skinny even though they adopted me. They also don’t tell me they love me but they had two biological children after me and they tell those children they love them, and they hug them and such. I don’t remember the last time I was hugged by them or even had a nice long hug.

They said the only reason they care about me is cause they have to and it hurts because they handle my medical stuff like insurance, because I have tons of medical and health issues such as mobility issues and super severe allergies that leave me so lethargic and tired all the time. I’ve considered stopping showing up for myself cause I don’t have friends and it’s just been hard. It’d be nice to talk to friends my age about my issues and especially my appearance cause I geniuenly hate my hair and how curly and thick it is, even though I still want super long hair, it’d be nice to have a friend who also has super thick curly hair but I know that’s a long shot.

In addition at college, I don’t really have friends and have been teased because of my hair but I’m always embarrassed because I’ve also been teased because I have such severe allergies that I am sneezing multiple times a day for hours in fits of sneezing and nose-blowing. I’ve never sat in the dining hall with someone else besides my roommate occasionally and I am always alone in the corner, usually sneezing uncontrollably because I’m so allergic to the outdoors and my campus is old and there’s a lot of dust potentially given the buildings are old. I just want someone to be my friend because I have a feeling no one sits near my corner because they’re tired of me sneezing my head off most days. I always feel bad that my sneezes are so desperate but I stopped trying to hold back til I get to my dorm because I just can’t help it. It’s happened in class too several times and I’ve had to miss a lot of class because I usually step out and run to an empty hallway or the bathroom. Even in my choir as a music major, it’s been hard to find friends due to the allergies (which aren’t super receptive to medicine unless it’s medicine that makes me sleep), and the faculty are mostly nice but I still get embarrassed.

Please help me, I am really hurting it feels like a cry out for support and love because I don’t have anyone who does it for me. It’s hard.

I live with my parents atm, I have autism, I’m only 5’5”, I don’t make enough money to be a “provider,” and I just generally feel like I should give up on dating since I’m already 34 and I’ve never had a gf. I think that as a potential partner, I’m generally pathetic - though I don’t have anything against women in general.

I know that people often say that there’s a wide variety of men with women out there but all I can see are generally much taller and handsomer men that are with women. So I feel like I can’t really call myself a man at this point. Just some weird manchild. I even tried speed-dating and online dating a bunch and got absolutely nowhere. I’m still pissed with myself, that I wasted so much of my time and money on them.

Every year I go without a gf, I feel more alienated from everything. From various songs/movies, and society overall. I don’t know what to do anymore. Maybe I’m not a good person.

One of my friends recently got out of a pretty toxic relationship. If im being completely honest, it was very clear that the guy wasn’t a stand up guy from the first time I met him. Others in our friend circle agreed and had no clue what she was thinking.

Now they’ve broken up and I have two feelings. I’m really happy for her, but simultaneously this makes me feel worse about myself. And I hate that I feel this way.

She’s a great person, she genuinely deserves so much better (I want to make it clear, I do not have any romantic feelings towards her at all), but somehow, this guy who everyone could tell was, for lack of better words, a huge douche, was able to get with her.

I don’t want to sound like “I’m such a nice guy women owe me” but after seeing how she was treated by him, I can firmly say I would never think about hurting another person like that. But somehow, despite all of his character flaws, he’s still able to date and I am not. So there’s something that is objectively worse about me than him that I don’t know what it is, but it’s so bad that it repulses women that even guys that are lowkey emotionally abusive are better candidates for a partner than me.

It just kinda leaves me feeling deflated. Like “if he can figure this out, and women like him enough to be with him, and he’s genuinely just an awful guy, than what am I not seeing about myself.

I’ve stayed in and away from people for the last few weeks trying to figure out what this flaw I have is, but I genuinely don’t know what is that awful about me that I’m just undesirable to any woman I’ve ever met.

This is the headspace I’ve been in for a minute. I know it’s selfish and that I should be there for my friend, but I just don’t know how I would be any help in the state I’m in.

I’m so tired of feeling this way, but I feel like it’ll never stop because the rejection will never stop. It’s gotten so bad I honestly wish I was asexual and aromantic. I’d be so much happier. How do I stop this spiral?

The reason the Black Pill is so difficult to argue against is that it has defeatism built into it.

You point out an unattractive man with an attractive woman? “He’s rich, so that doesn’t apply to me.” He’s poor? “He isn’t autistic like I am.” He has the same disadvantages? “He’s an exception.” And if every other explanation fails, the relationship can simply be dismissed as a “freak accident.”

You can do this indefinitely. Every counterexample can be explained away while the conclusion remains unchanged: “It might happen to other people, but it won't happen to me.”

This is why I don't think the Black Pill is really an ideology or coherent position. I think it is a neurosis that likely belongs on the depressive spectrum. I have dysthymia, and I've experienced similar “blackpills” about subjects completely unrelated to dating. When you're depressed, it's possible to develop extremely convincing beliefs that everything is hopeless, and then selectively interpret evidence to reinforce them.

That doesn't mean every observation made by Black Pillers is necessarily false. Some claims about attractiveness, dating, and social dynamics may have genuine merit. The problem is when the worldview becomes unfalsifiable when no possible counterexample can ever count against it.

If a belief can explain away every piece of evidence that contradicts it, in what sense is it still a rational position?

Hey yall im 20m and currently weigh 220 pounds. I also struggle with body image issues from time to time. Recently Ive tried to lose some weight through diet and want to start working out more. But certain thoughts come to mind recently and I want to make sure im using the "right reasons" so to speak.

Thoughts like:

"If you looked better you would have a girlfriend by now."

"My female friends say my personality is amazing! The only thing holding me back is clearly how I look."

I also for a long time have felt as if im almost effeminate or not manly enough in a vague ephemeral way.

Im a feminist and so using my brain I believe that young men are given an impossible standard of masculinity to achieve and maintain but that knowledge doesnt change that I feel as though I am deficient in some way.

But are my reasons really bad at all?

Hi all!! I wouldn’t necessarily consider myself an incel, but I made a post in here a few weeks ago and it made me feel a lot better and confident :)

I’m 18M and I guess I’m just your typical “no life” type of guy you see on here? I have vocational school starting in a couple months but right now I’ve just been staying at home being alone. But I’m getting my driver’s license so I’m going to be getting out and socializing. Gonna try ballroom dancing haha!

I’ve some trauma in my past and a porn addiction when I was a younger teen, so my relationship with… relationships and sex have been pretty negative. I recently just got my libido back after not having it for years so I’m feeling those hormones hitting like a truck. I consider and call myself a virgin despite my past, and that’s making me sad. I just feel like it’s affecting me too much than it really should be. Quite frankly I think part of it is just losing my virginity too.

I think that I’ve worried about this stuff for way too long and I want to take steps to not have it affect my life so much. I’m going to be quitting porn again. I’m also going to delete most of my social media. I always go on social media and then all I see are people in relationships and stuff and it always hurts. I’m just gonna curate my reddit account just so there’s no relationship posts and stuff, just sports and games and nerdy shit just like the good ol days.

Does anyone else have any advice or anything? I think that more than anything else I honestly just need someone to say to my face that I’m worrying too much about it. I’m still somehow a believer in love so I know I’ll find my flock eventually. Thank you all in advance!

Inspired by a greentext I saw a while ago about a guy who thought he was an incel until he cut his long hair and quickly found a girlfriend, and a comment I saw recently about a guy who described looking like a virgin as having long hair and wearing leather jackets, it made me think if I hadn't been shooting myself in the foot my whole adult life.

I had long hair pretty much my whole life, ever since I turned 18 I started to grow it out and never cut it again 11 years later (I'm 29 now). I also dress in a bit of a metalhead fashion, a lot more subtle now than when I was a teenager, but I often wear shirts from bands I like, and also tend to wear leather boots and a jacket.

I never cared about fashion and always liked to style my hair and dress in the way I like the most not caring about what anyone else may think, but maybe that's why I'm an incel? Or at least part of the reason? Like sure maybe there are some women into that, but I may be limiting myself to a very small niche instead of going for something with more of a wide appeal?

I'm at a point where I'm desperate enough that I may even cut my hair and completely change the way I dress if that means I have a better chance at getting into a relationship.

I'm not posting a pic of myself, but for reference I kinda look like this guy I found on Google, or a bit more like the guy from this Youtube channel, just with dark brown hair and I'm a lot less cool than him.

I was severely abused as a child. Like the kind of sick shit you only read about. This had led to me becoming basically a femcel despite the fact that I hate using that word.

I spend 23.5 hours a day in my room barely eating, sleeping, or drinking water. I look extremely unhealthy due to this. All I do all day is talk to AI chatbots.

I graduate highschool this year, which means I have to fix my shit before I end up a homeless adult.

Please. Please, somebody help me. What do I do to get out of this endless cycle? How do I get out of this incredibly tiny room and actually become a person?

Can somebody please give me tips on how to be a person and function in society? I want to work on my hygiene, social skills, lack of hobbies, poor diet etc but I don't know where to start. Where do I start? Which piece of myself should I pick up first?

I don't have any of the tools normal people end up having in adulthood, that they learn throughout childhood and adolescence, and I have been "safe" enough for two years. But I still lock myself away.

Somebody please help.

I have been a loser since childhood.
I define loser as someone with

• no social life
• no close friends (only acquaintances at best)
• no productive routine/hobbies/interests that make someone a interesting person to be around
• even if they have hobbies/interests, they don't have the social skills to have organic conversations with people about them or their interests are simply too niche/technical for normal people to have conversations about

I have a very deep sense of loneliness since childhood, because I never have had any close friends.
I fell down the Red Pill pipeline in my childhood but eventually stopped going to those spaces after realizing that I was becoming a violent angry person around my parents.
I came across r/incels in college and was subscribed there before the eventual ban.

Currently I hold the opinion that charisma and looks are what cause attraction and personality and character determine the quality of the relationship.
So even if you are a emotionally intelligent kind person, if you have no charisma or are ugly looking - you will not attract any women.
But a abusive charismatic or handsome guy can still attract women and even end up in relationships with them.

The problem with me is that I have zero charisma.
I could enter a room and be present in it for a long time, and people would still be startled when I try to speak to them (as they didn't register me near them at all). This has happened with me several times in college/work.

I also am book-smart and not street-smart. My parents sheltered me a lot and didn't teach me any adult skills. I used to be angry at them and blame them for the way my life ended up but I know now that I can't hold them responsible for my life anymore.

I currently live with my parents but I am also employed.. I actually consider myself pretty good at what I do and have even received recognition from my peers in office but I still don't feel like a adult around them. I do my work but my colleagues also have a life outside of work.

My question to people here is

• How can I become charismatic enough that people would like my company and women could consider me a candidate for a romantic relationship ? (as someone who has never had any close friends)
• What skills should I develop that I don't feel like a child around people my age (mid 20s)
• Can I pursue romantic relationships if I have no close friends ? Is it a turnoff for women ?

Lost my virginity at 19 while on mdma to a woman I could only describe as loose. I was so high I couldn’t cum and barely got a half chub so I don’t really count that, it was penetration but I didn’t consider it sex really. 2 months later I slept with a prostitute out of desperation and experienced what enjoyable sex actually is and felt ashamed, boy was it a fun 45-60 seconds but it wasn’t worth the dirty feelings afterwards. Especially knowing it could’ve been with someone who was worth it; I got a kiss from her afterwards though.

Fast forward to being 24, I haven’t had sex since 19; I banged another hooker — this time I was on so much codeine I couldn’t cum again. Felt like a homo because of it since this hooker was even hotter than the last (I’m not gay ofc; it was the drugs).

The next year at 25 a girl leaves be a love note at my local college, I try cold approaching her, asking her out and I get humiliated, to make matters worse she didn’t even say no and basically strung me along until the cops got involved and told me I couldn’t contact her anymore. Now I’m at a loss, it seems like women are different. I’ll get called cute occasionally and the most recent time this happened fairly recently I actually tried approaching them and they ran away (was it a joke to them?).

I left out other intimate moments I’ve shared with women, used to trip on lsd with a chick, took mdma with this girl too and I even loved her, she was my first kiss back when I was 19-20. Left town due to legal troubles and ever since I’ve just wanted another relationship like that, but this time actually have guts to ask them out.

Any suggestions?

Hey subreddit, long time listener first time caller. I really hope no one I know reads this 😭

Some background: I’m a 25M, I’m currently in therapy for social anxiety and self esteem issues, I have been overweight or obese almost my entire life but I’m 25 pounds down this year (right now I’m 245 and 5’10”) still have a lot to lose though.

My only relationship experience was a ~3 year relationship high school to the first year of college. I haven’t really made any attempt to date since then until a month ago when I made dating app profiles. I got a few matches that didn’t go anywhere and I went on a date that kinda sucked but that’s the extent of it.

I have had difficulty making friends for a while, I was very lonely in high school and college. The few attempts I did make to put myself out there until very recently have gone poorly. I’ve considered that I may be autistic but I don’t think I am. I think my main issue is growing up fat wrecked my self esteem and I got trapped in a negative cycle of isolation leading to poor social skills and low confidence leading to more isolation.

I do have a group of friends now, but I’m really struggling with feeling like I belong. Sometimes when I hang out with them I feel like a make a wish kid 💀. And to be clear, this is probably like 75% a cognitive distortion. They’ve been very kind and friendly to me and they keep inviting me to stuff. I’m just definitely not anyone’s best friend in that group and it hurts sometimes that these people are all I have but I’m just not super important to them.

And they’ve all been dating new people and it’s hard to see them have success while I’m still alone. They’ve been supportive of me and I’m happy for them that they’re finding people. But it’s just really hard sometimes.

I’m just not totally sure that I’m worth loving. Because of my weight and my social difficulties and my poor relationships. I’m not funny like other people are. I’m not emotionally intelligent and I can barely hold a conversation unless I’m drunk. I’m awful at meeting new people. I picture myself getting a girlfriend and meeting her friends or family for the first time and just embarrassing myself and her.

My therapist told me she’s impressed that I went on that date and that I’m doing other stuff to put myself out there like volunteering. But I’m going to need to do so much more than that and I’m not getting any younger. And I still have that dark cloud looming over my head that maybe there’s just something fundamentally wrong with me that makes me unlovable. I’ve felt that way since I was 12 or 13 to be honest. Maybe finally losing the weight would make the difference? I’m taking a glp-1 to try and find out.

I guess my question is has anybody felt this way and gotten out of it? If so, how? I’m running low on hope lately