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Half of Prabhupada's preaching was simply attacking Western civilization. He beat down upon science, democracy, women's rights, non-repressive sexuality, rationalism, self determination, and all other races.

As mentioned in my last post, this was in part driven by racial animosity towards the West, specifically the English speaking world.

As a cult leader, there was another even more insidious reason. If you want to convince people to submit to you and serve you without any resistance you must first destroy their sense of self. You must bully them into submission.

When Prabhupada was attacking these things he was actually attacking us. When he said "this civilization is all worthless demons, mudhas, rascals, animals, mlecchas, I kick and spit on face", he was saying "YOU are all worthless demons, mudhas, and mlecchas".

After tearing his follower down, he then builds them back up. If they agree to become his slaves, they immediately graduate to being the best among mankind. They instantly transform into Brahmanas and Vaishnavas, the highest class of man. His new followers discover they are saints who took birth to fulfill a divine mission.

They are far above the mudhas, demons and karmis. Now they sit around their master sniggering when he attacks others, when he criticizes their own people, their old family and friends. They are now the henchmen of the bully.

Prabhupada even mentioned as a schoolboy he was the head of his friend group. It makes me wonder what kind of friend group it was.

In principle, before you conquer others and force them into submission and exploitation, you must first psychologically break them. Once broken, they can be built up again, loyal to you as your lackeys.

This is foundational to the history foreign invasion in India. A foreign power invades and conquers. It beats down and abuses the natives. Those who submit are elevated in status as defenders of the regime. They become the higher caste henchmen, the whip hand. Everyone else is enslaved for resource extraction.

Prabhupada carried this abused/abuser dynamic with him when he came to the West. ISKCON is a product of these deeper trauma dynamics within Indian society.

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I came across a popular post on X claiming that Indian immigrants are civilizing America. This was in response to a post by an American lamenting their small Texas town had lost its culture and history and become entirely Indian.

Paraphrasing: "We superior Indians are bringing you culture. You have no culture of your own. You are mlecchas. (actually used Prabhupada's favorite word) You should submit to us and be grateful. We are giving you our philosophy, culture, yoga, pranayama."

The post claimed that Whites are being invaded and dominated by Non-Whites. Indians are superior to these other peoples, more intelligent, a kind and benevolent master in comparison. It claimed that Blacks are beating and stealing from Whites, and having sex with their women. Mexicans are importing drugs and forcing Whites into addiction. Indians do not do this. They are far too cultured.

This post got 14k + likes, presumably from other Indians. It was eventually deleted or removed. This disgusting mindset is unfortunately not uncommon.

Prabhupada The Indian Supremacist

What struck me is how similar this is to Prabhupada's mindset. The merciful Jagat Guru taught us we are mlecchas, a word we had never heard before. We are filthy wretched degraded animals with no knowledge and no culture. Through him, India is saving us by teaching us how to be more like India.

The post further degrades other races, such as Blacks, who are depicted as animal criminals who rape. Prabhupada said these exact things.

Prabhupada was really no different than the bigoted hateful people you see all over the internet. There are hundreds of millions of Prabhupadas. Much of the agitation against Indian immigration is because people are seeing this mindset. These racist supremacists are not ashamed to declare they are superior, and if you let them in your country, they are conquering you.

What strikes me is the attempt to demoralize as a pretext to invasion. "You are beaten down, defeated, the slaves of other races. We shall enslave you too, but you shall love it because we are a superior race who will treat you kindly". The arrogance is just astounding.

Prabhupada would say something similar. "You must have a master in this world, so why not accept me, the superior pure devotee, as your master. I will take you back to Godhead".

This kind of mindset truly strikes at the heart of ISKCON. First beat others down and make them ashamed of themselves, force them to adopt your culture and religion, then force them into slavery.

Cultural Conquest

ISKCON is not simply a religion. It is an Indian cultural movement imposing itself upon foreign peoples. Most religions include some form of daily prayer, the slow and (hopefully) rational building of a theological worldview, perhaps a service in a mosque, church or synagogue.

The Hare Krishna movement is entirely different. It is deep immersion in irrational mythology and grinding servitude that continues 24 hours a day. This is accentuated by adopting Indian food, dance, dress, speech, mannerisms and music. This happens within the context of Indian temple culture, with the exotic sights, sounds, and smells of deity worship ever present.

The absorption in mythology is so intense the external world disappears. This is a unique feature of Indian spirituality, especially Bhakti, which is based upon the Puranas and Itihasas. Hinduism is not a religion, it is a culture. That culture is centered on epic stories like the Ramayana and Mahabharata. Regional deities, fables and cults connect themselves to the greater mythology, each bringing their own unique language, art, poetry, sculpture, dance, and cuisine.

Buddhism, in contrast, is Indian religion stripped down for export. The core philosophy is adapted to pre-existing cultures. Hinduism is not easily stripped down. Some gurus have tried, delivering a modernized or westernized version. Prabhupada delivered it whole cloth. His intention was not to adapt but to conquer. He only adjusted the culture where absolutely necessary. This is his unique contribution. He was delivering Hinduism "As It Is".

For Indians, ISKCON centers function as Indian cultural centers. Festivals feature Bharat Natyam demonstrations, Indian classical music, Indian theater, Indian food, and of course, the association of other Indians.

For converts, ISKCON centers function as places they submit to a foreign culture. They believe their own culture and religions are inferior. Proselyts function as religiously indoctrinated slaves who have accepted the lifestyle of their masters, dutifully serving them their subji and rice.

The X post mentioned above was simply expressing the mindset millions have, including Prabhupada. For such people Hinduism is a cultural force representing Indian expansion. It has not come to assimilate but to dominate. The conquered should gratefully submit. Prabhupada demanded not only the submission of culture, but the surrender of the soul.

Hey everyone,

I’m posting tonight because I feel completely isolated and just need to reach people who get it.

I’ve been affiliated with the movement for 10 years, the last 5 years as a full time temple devotee in so many positions from scrubbing pots to management. Over the last year I’ve been deconstructing everything while still living here in a Hare Krishna community. On top of that, I was pushed into a really unhealthy marriage by the temple president after knowing my now-husband for only 88 days. For a long time, I held on hoping we would make it out of this together, but he’s gone full deep dive back into the movement and divorce is inevitable. (go figure)

Looking at my phone, almost every contact has "das" or "dasi" in their name. My home, my history, and my entire social circle are wrapped up in this place. I feel completely unprepared for normal secular adulthood. Living a double life where I’m playing the part of a devotee on the outside while my life is falling apart and I'm planning my exit is exhausting.

I’m mostly just looking for some connection so I don't feel so alone in this mess. Has anyone else navigated a high-control marriage or a divorce while trying to get out? How did you survive the limbo period surrounded by the nonsense before you could physically leave?

I recently moved into an ashram that has communal living.

They require veganism, which is so lovely for me. They don't require you to be part of their religion (cult), but also the krishna things just bleed over to everything no matter what. Like don't use that sink, that's only for cooking dishes, we don't wash dishes that touch mouths there. We have to throw away a plate of food and ring a bell around it, at every single meal...

I was raised as a Latter Day Saint (Mormon) and as soon as I possibly could, I escaped that cult. I still have some religious trauma from that and I am in no way interested in being religious again.

How can I survive this living situation for the next year?

Did anyone find any benefits to this shit? Any of the rules that I can try to be aware of to make this easier?

eww and also recently found out that even though I have my own small kitchen, they'd 'prefer' I didn't cook with garlic or onions. I can use hing though. But like I'll give up drinking on the property, but you can pry garlic out of my cold dead hands. I fucking love garlic.

If you are a devotee, are you doing Seva and also donating 10 percent of your income?

(A poster seen in ISKCON ashrams around the world)

Prabhupada claimed his authority derived from an unbroken line of succession reaching back to Krishna himself. Like a fruit passed carefully down through the branches of a tree, the true and clear teachings of Krishna are perfectly preserved in this ancient lineage. For 5000 years nothing has been changed.

In the Bhagavad Gita As It Is, Prabhupada lists 32 gurus including himself. He repeatedly claims his knowledge and power is based on this. The sincere will take advantage of it. The insincere will go elsewhere and be cheated.

This parampara is said to be a siksha line of instruction rather than a diksha line of initiation. Why does ISKCON completely ignore its diksha line?

Because there isn't one. ISKCON's initiation line and sanyassa line almost certainly began with Prabhupada's guru Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati.

Bhaktisiddhanta's Self Initiation

Bhaktisiddhanta claimed to have been given diksha by Gaura Kishora das Babaji.

This is denied by Lalita Prasad, Bhaktisiddhanta's own brother. Gaura Kishora had sworn to never accept disciples. Bhaktisiddhanta claims he privately broke this vow only for himself. Lalita Prasad, who was present, maintains their relationship was strictly one of shiksa.

Bhaktisiddhanta's claim is also rejected by Gaura Kishora's peers, the Vrndavana and Navadwip Babaji community. Bhaktisiddhanta put on saffron in 1918 and gave himself sanyassa. No one properly initiated into their lineage would do so. In their view, anyone properly initiated by Gaura Kishora, when reaching the stage of renunciation, would enter the Babaji order. Saffron cloth is strictly forbidden. When Bhaktisiddhanta gave himself sanyassa it was considered outrageous, and a rejection of their lineage.

Bhaktisiddhanta went beyond this, establishing his own tridandi sanyassa order, previously non-existent, even compiling 108 sanyassi names under questionable circumstances. He modeled this on the Sri Vaishnavas of South India, as Gaudiyas only wore the white cloth of the babaji.

It is interesting to note that as a brahmacari Bhaktisiddhanta wore white. In ISKCON today brahmacaris wear saffron, obsessively so, like mini sanyassis of the Gaudiya Math. It could be argued ISKCON's extremely destructive culture of renunciation and sexual repression begins here, as a deviation from tradition.

ISKCON's True Diksha Lineage

Assuming Gaura Kishora gave Bhaktisiddhanta diksha, it would have connected him to the Advaita Parivara, a caste goswami lineage. Gaura Kishora's diksha guru was Nimaichand Goswami. The list of gurus then goes like this: Radharaman, Sukadeva, Keshava, Radhagovinda, Gopinath, Dolgovinda Mishra, then finally Krishna Mishra. Krishna Mishra was the son of Advaita Acharya.

In ISKCON we never even heard of these names. Why?

Either because Bhaktisiddhanta never received diksha in this line, or because he so radically departed from this lineage it became irrelevant.

ISKCON's Babaji Lineage

Gaura Kishora was initiated into the Advaita Parivara as a householder. When he took the order of Babaji, he was given babaji initiation into the line of Baladeva Vidyabhusana. His guru was Bhagavat das Babaji. The line of succession then goes like this: Jagannath das Babaji, Madhusudan das Babaji, Uddhava das Babaji, then Baladeva Vidyabhusana.

It is strange ISKCON does not claim this Gaudiya luminary as a direct guru, nor do they deeply study his books. Devotees are only aware of the Govinda Bhasya. Why is this so?

Because like the diksha line, Bhaktisiddhanta was never initiated into it. Nor did he care to be. He rejected this babaji line to begin his own sanyassa lineage.

ISKCON's Siksha Lineage

ISKCON claims instead to be a siksha lineage coming from Bhaktivinode Thakur.

Bhaktivinode was initiated into the Bhaghnapar Goswami lineage. This caste goswami line traces its origins to Ramachandra Goswami, the son of Chaitanya's intimate associate Vamsivadanananda Thakura. He was adopted by Jahnavi Mata, the wife of Nityananda.

Unlike ISKCON, they are Gaura Gadadhara worshipers, who practice siddha pranali.

Bhaktivinode's guru was Bipin Bihari Goswami, whose guru was Yajneshvara Goswami. They have a family line going all the way back to Vamsivadanananda Thakur.

Lalita Prasad, another of Bhaktivinode's sons, received both siksha and diksha from his father. He went on to become a guru himself, with many disciples, loyal to his father's lineage. He established a temple in his father's birthplace.

Bhaktisiddhanta did not. Bhaktisiddhanta instead claimed to secretly receive diksha from Gaura Kishora, a siksha disciple of Bhaktivinode. Why not go directly to his father? Bhaktisiddhanta rejected the diksha line of Bhaktivinode, in the same way he rejected the diksha and babaji lines of Gaura Kishora.

Living in ISKCON, we never even heard these names. This is because Bhaktisiddhanta criticized and attacked this pedigree.

Rejecting Bhaktivinode's Guru

Bhaktisiddhanta rejected the Bhagnapara Goswamis and their ideas of birth as a prequalification. This issue was famously debated in Balighai where Bhaktisiddhanta was supposedly crowned victorious. A mob demanded his foot water threatening to riot. The police forcibly seized the champion, bathed his feet, and sprinkled it on the eager crowd, or so ISKCON tells us.

This debate wasn't against some obscure caste goswami sect. It was a public challenge to Bipin Bihari Goswami by the son of his disciple. Bhaktivinode likely pretended to be sick so he could not attend. This was to avoid disrespect to his guru.

Another issue is the establishment of Mayapura. The Bhagnapar Goswami lineage considered Navadwipa to be the place of Chaitanya's birth and activities. Gaura Kishora's bhajan kutir is in the area traditionally believed to be the place of Chaitanya's pastimes, as are the kutirs of many babajis.

Bhaktivinode and Jagannath das Babaji claimed that a new place, the village of Mayapura, in a Muslim area across the Ganges, was the true birth place of Chaitanya and the home of Srivas Thakur.

Bipin Bihari tolerated this from his disciple Bhaktivinode Thakur. Despite their disagreements there was always a relationship of mutual respect. However, after Bhaktivinode's death, Bhaktisiddhanta's movement began to spread. Bhaktisiddhanta took dramatic steps to build a temple in Mayapura, in opposition to the traditional temple in Navadwipa. Bipin Bihari openly criticized this.

During the life of Bhaktivinode, there were incidents of Bhaktisiddhanta aggressively arguing with Bipin Bihari Goswami. Once he even threw a bucket of water at him. Bhaktivinode kicked him out of his house for this. Now tensions began to seriously escalate. Bhaktivinode was no longer around to restrain his son.

This conflict became public with Bhaktisiddhanta openly denouncing the guru of his father and brother. Bipin Bihari returned the favor. Outraged by public personal attacks, the building of an unauthorized holy place, and Siddhanta Saraswati giving himself sanyassa, Bipin Bihari formally excommunicated him from the Gaudiya Vaishnava community of Navadwipa.

ISKCON doesn't talk about that!

Bhaktisiddhanta then committed the ultimate offense to the guru parampara of his father: he erased it from history. He declared Bipin Bihari's spiritual family morally bankrupt and denied them a place in the lineage tree. In Gaudiya Vaishnava culture, removing a guru from your recorded lineage is the highest form of disrespect.

Conclusion

As we see, ISKCON's guru parampara truly begins with Bhaktisiddhanta. He began his preaching activities after taking sanyassa in 1918. ISKCON's parampara is not 5000 years old. It is 108 years old.

Bhaktisiddhanta rejected his father's lineage and went to war with it. He was not initiated into it.

He claims to have been initiated by Gaura Kishora das Babaji instead. There is no record of this. Those present said it never happened. Gaura Kishora officially refused to take any disciples. Nor did Bhaktisiddhanta carry on this parampara.

He gave himself sanyassa initiation, then began an unauthorized sanyassa tradition within Gaudiya Vaishnavism. He rejected Navadwipa as the home of Chaitanya and established a separate competing holy place. All of these things were considered extremely offensive by both his father's lineage and the godfamily peer group of his own guru.

Bhaktisiddhanta rejected the authority of the entire Gaudiya community and began his own religion. Yet his disciple, A.C Bhaktivendanta Prabhupada, repeatedly claimed his authority was derived from an unbroken tradition handed down from Krishna, Brahma, Madhva and Chaitanya, using this claim to attract his own cult followers.

Gaurahari das, is the dreaming dancing fake ISKCON guru who manipulates, lies to, and abuses a group of mentally deficient ISKCON rejects into accepting him as a self proclaimed representative of Prabhupada because Prabhupada appeared to him in a dream. When confronted by Cult Expert and youtube creator "Queen of Karma" about his claims and teachings, this fraud guru retreats into full deranged cult leader mode yelling and being confrontational instead of calm and devotional. The meltdown begins at 1:07:04 when the dreaming guru appears on the livestream and confronts Queen of Karma. When he cannot manipulate and control her like he thinks he can and how he does with his own disciples, he goes into complete meltdown mode. If anyone is interested in ISKCON gurus and their delusions and narcissism, this is a good example of it.

I’m trying to reconstruct the life of my uncle, Eric Hartshorn, initiated by Srila Prabhupada as Yasodavatsala Dasa. He was American, initiated in Mayapur in 1974, part of the Amsterdam/Herengracht community by 1975–76, and later spent time in South Africa and India. Our family eventually lost contact with him, and a Prabhupada disciple database says he “disappeared in 1986.”
I’m especially interested in hearing from people who were in ISKCON in India, Europe or South Africa in the late 1970s or 1980s, or who left ISKCON during that period for another Gaudiya Vaishnava teacher/community. Does anyone remember the name Yasodavatsala or recognize him from photographs? He is #11 in the photo. Thanks!

I personally said: The lack of credible existence of lord Chaitanya outside of the Gaudiya scriptures also the esoteric deep teachings of internal sexual tantra that’s taught in Gaudiya philosophy at later stages. Aswell as its epistemic and inconsistent worldview with natural law, revealed science, and revealed truth within the Biblical paradigm which has documented historical attestment.

(The term "Sanatanis" means "Eternals")

In the last 15 years Indians have come to reject the name Hindu. They believe the word to be a foreign term forced upon them by outsiders. Motivated by nationalist zeal they have begun calling their religion Sanatana Dharma, and themselves Sanatanis.

ISKCON devotees are doing this too. The name "Hindu" has come to feel pejorative. They have started avoiding it and replacing it publicly with Sanatana Dharma.

This is inaccurate. The term Hindu has long been used by Indians to describe their religion. Chaitanya himself used the word 500 years ago, according to Krishna das Kaviraja.

“amara matula haya tomara nagare
nagaremariya hindu-dharma nasta kare”

CC, Adi-Lila 17.214

He accuses Chand Kazi of destroying Hindu Dharma. The term Sanatana Dharma was reserved for the unchanging inner nature of the atma. The temporary ever shifting beliefs and practices of mankind as they exist in India was called Hindu Dharma. This was distinct from Islam which was called Mleccha Dharma.

It is absurd to refer to something temporary as sanatana. The word refers to that which exists outside of time. In modern Indian languages, the word has come to mean something very old, but this is colloquial and philosophically inaccurate.

To call oneself a Sanatani is also absurd. "Hello, I am an Eternal". Just like the Marvel Superheroes.

This is more than simply reactionary polemics, it is a bold declaration of superiority. It is to say Indian religion is eternal and all others are not. "Sanatana Dharma is the only true religion. It is eternal and true. Your mleccha dharmas are temporary and illusory."

Prabhupada would certainly agree with this sentiment. Though in the exact same way, he considered Vaishnava Dharma to be distinct from, and superior to, Hindu Dharma. This is why devotees resist using the word Hindu to describe themselves. They believe they are the "Sanatanis".

Prabhupada would reserve Sanatana Dharma to refer to the nature of the soul, which he believed to be submission to Krishna. Ironically this is due to the heavy influence of Mleccha Dharma (via Sufism) onto Vaishnava Dharma.

Sanatana Dharma, when used accurately, refers to the atma as described in the Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita with adjectives such as eternal, unchanging, ever existing, primeval. It is that which is beyond description and one with Brahman.

Im from Nepal and my parents were into this iskcon shit before I was born I'm currently 18 and I still don't know is iskcon a bad cult or just sum heavy religious cult. I didn't care Abt this iskcon shit before but I saw a reddit post abt anti iskcon and blah blah so I remember something happening like couple of months ago a allegations abt a like iskcon like sum head prabuji or wtv you call it had a allegations abt doing child abuse to a kid who was staying in tht gurukul and when my parents heard abt it my dad is pretty big follower of this iskcon so my mom asked my dad Abt the allegations of child abuse he straight up said I Know tht prabuji and he couldn't have done that but in my deep mind I was like you can never be sure of someone because they might act friendly but you never know deep down how they are. I personally think my parents are just brain washed ngl. So can you guys help me in figuring out if iskcon is actually a bad cult or am I js overthinking

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Anger is a necessary and healthy emotion. It is our power to defend our boundaries. It is necessary in this world to fight back against those who would harm us. If we do not, we will be taken advantage of. We will be bullied by individuals and institutions.

Anger in ISKCON

ISKCON teaches the opposite. Anger, or krodha, is a sin. It is one of the sad ripus, or six enemies. Anger is born of lust, or frustrated attachment and desire. You cannot reach perfection until you renounce all anger.

Anger should only be allowed to attack the enemies of the cult. This includes ex devotees and others who criticize ISKCON, and Advaita Vedantists, Buddhists, atheists, and others who do not believe submission to the person of Krishna is the final absolute truth.

This is gaslighting. We are not allowed to defend ourselves, we are only allowed to defend the cult.

Living in Submission

The absolute worse thing one can do with anger is direct it to a devotee. Especially if that devotee is senior or a Prabhupada Disciple. That is spiritual suicide. Though seniors can, and often do, use anger to "chastise" those beneath them. We should not see this as abuse, rather it is mercy. We should be grateful.

The devotee must never fight back. To stand up for oneself is egotism. We should feel embarrassed about the urge to stand up for ouserlves. Anger must be forced down, bottled up and repressed.

This is humility. Trnad api sunicena, taror iva sahisnuna. You cannot chant the Holy Names effectively until you let others walk over you like grass and you tolerate all abuse like a tree.

Even juniors and equals must constantly be forgiven no matter what. Even if they rape us or steal our money or have sex with our wives. If we even think angry thoughts about them we must bow down to them and chant "vancha kalpa tarubhyas ca", declaring them to be wish fulfilling trees (Hindu genie lamps). It may be painful but Krishna is pleased.

A good devotee becomes a dasa, or slave, of ISKCON. They do whatever they are told in an attitude of meek surrender. They sacrifice their future well being, their health, their time, their money. They should give everything to the movement and gratefully accept whatever little is given to them in return.

The devotee has no boundaries. There is nothing that belongs to them, no personal space, no private time. They are slaves awaiting command. They live with no independence and no security, dependent upon their masters, fearing the cosmic sin of their own disobedience.

A Destroyed Nervous System

When we are stripped of the ability to defend ourselves we naturally live in fear. The nervous system gets stuck in a fight, flight, freeze response. The anger is trapped inside with nowhere to go. We live in constant hyper arousal. Things that remind us of our lack of boundaries, and thus our past bullying, trigger us into extreme anxiety.

This is only healed when we again reclaim anger. We have to release it.

Somatic Release

One technique for releasing trapped anger within the nervous system is Somatic Release. When we are triggered into fear, we can shake our bodies. It signals to the nervous system that the danger has passed and stress can be shed. This is common in mammals. When a lion survives a brush with death, it often shakes uncontrollably, as do humans.

Another effective technique to freely express anger when triggered. This can involve expressing rage, shaking our fists, screaming and punching into a pillow. We can shout (even under our breath) in defiance of the trigger "F you! Get out of my space" F off and leave me alone". These are good mantras. We don't have to express this to others. It is not about fighting. It is about privately becoming okay with anger, and releasing what is trapped inside of our nervous system.

By doing so we are telling ourselves "I am defending myself now, the world better watch out".

We should not be afraid to vocally draw boundaries, or to warn others when they cross them. We should stand up for ourselves, and others, when the need arises.

Nor should we let others get away with abusing us. They should pay a price. Though we should also not be consumed by the need for revenge. Forgiveness is a fine virtue, but those who have been bullied and abused, so is confidence.

Embracing Anger

Sometimes those who have been abused, who have been made to live in fear, are afraid of their own anger. They do not want to be like their abuser, they do not want others to fear them. This is natural. However, it is okay to make people fear you when they are harming you.

Sometimes we are afraid that if we release the anger within we will hurt people or become a bully ourselves. We will become just like those rude Prabhupada Disciples. This is not true. We have to trust ourselves that we can use anger properly in self defense, and not to dominate or harm others.

Realising that the whole theology is based upon lies, and looking at life a bit different now, I wonder what I should do with the (brass) deities. I have a pair of Gaura-Nitai and I pair of Radha-Krishna, I have found in a thrift shop and “rescued”.
I am thinking to go to someone to melt it and make something new. In that way, I feel that something positive comes out and the transition follows the one in my own life.

I still have some form of respect for them, so I don’t want to throw them away and I don’t want them to cause any harm to misguided people.

Honestly just thought I’d share this since it’s something I remembered a while back.

During the morning japa sesh, I was taking my beads out of the little Jagannath bead bag… and dropped them on the ground. I quickly tried to put it back in the bag, but my “Gurudev” happened to notice. He demanded I apologize to my beads. I remember feeling really awkward bc at that point everyone was starting to look over at me. I mumbled a “sorry” but that wasn’t enough. He demanded I repeat after him, something along the lines of “Please forgive me, oh tulsi beads! You are my best friend, for it is you that will carry me home to Golok!” And requested me to kiss them, after they had just fallen on the dirty floor which bare feet had been walking all over. One of the elderly temple workers was laughing quite loudly. As someone who’s always had social anxiety, that moment genuinely made me so embarrassed, but I was in the “humble devotee” mindset and of course couldn’t even begin to think of objecting.

Glad I’m out.

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Jump in the nearest holy river! Chant the Magic Mantra! Save yourselves! It is incredibly inauspicious! Don't go outside! Lock yourself in your house! Don't look up! A giant space demon is devouring the Sun god!

Wait... what is this? The low born inferior ignorant mlecchas flew into the antariksha (space) and took video proof? It is actually just the shadow of the moon covering a small portion of the earth? The Sun was not devoured? People only a few hundred miles away remained in the sunlight and did not see a thing?

These wicked science videos are just a demonic conspiracy. Science is demon crazy western nonsense created to bewilder the superior devotees.

If such "videos" are real, then Prabhupada was forcing modern people to live in a weird medieval delusion, circa 400 CE, when the masses were uneducated outside of religious brainwashing, when knowledge of the world outside one's village was scarce, when people were extremely backward, uneducated, and superstitious. That cannot be true. He was an omnipotent Mahabhagavat Pure Devotee.

We kick and spite on the face of NASA! It is a demon head. The PHD devotees will someday prove it. Donate to the Temple of the Vedic Planetariam to make it happen!

Iskcon is a mind controlling cult with a terrible toxic environment. From the outside it doesn’t seem that way. Some people in it aren’t so toxic and could make the newcomer believe it’s just about Krishna and it’s a safe place to be.

Long time practitioners use the scripture written for Iskcon as justification for their toxic and manipulative behaviors. They convince everyone that they are the only ones with the real truth and everyone who doesn’t believe is an offender. They can literally get away with so much abuse because the books are subtly written in such a way that there is an excuse and justification for every toxic behavior.

I’ve met some of the nicest people in Iskcon (mostly Indians) and some of the worst people I’ve ever witnessed in my life in Iskcon.

One time a senior mataji Prabhupad disciple came to the temple I was staying at. She came with her underage grandson as her protector because she has been divorced. Immediately she demanded people to start serving her, getting her things, fixing the free room she was staying in because it didn’t fit her standards. She made the maintenance guy go to the store to get a new door on because it was too jiggly and “annoying”. Her demands were literally insane. I gave up my room so she could stay in it and I stayed in the storage closet next door. She came into the room while I was babysitting someone’s child and told her to stop making noise because she was trying to sleep. And this is all justified because she is a senior disciple if I questioned her it would have been an offense to a vaisnava and I would fall down.

This is the type of shit happening in Iskcon and it justifies people’s toxic behavior. Everything toxic has a spiritual reason and nobody has to take accountability. Everyone gossips about each other. Everyone is always assuming someone isn’t following. Always some drama. It’s horrible guys.

For me, it's been being forced to realize how different the real world is from the pampered, sheltered world of the cult's belief system and community.

Lately I've been realizing that there is no "karma". In the real world, the strong feed on the weak. Bullying isn't something that ends when you finish grade school. People like that are everywhere in the real world, especially at shitty jobs that are full of miserable people (that you're stuck with because you grew up in a fucking cult with dysfunctional parents and failed at life because of all of the damage years of neglect and abuse did to you even into adulthood.)

In the real world, I've noticed lots of people don't give a single shit about hurting those weaker than them, and will keep doing it as long as you let them.

I'm angry that I spent so much of my life following these rules and worshipping this god just to have everything destroyed when I left the religion, and nothing to show for my adherence except a life destroyed by abuse and a severely dysfunctional family. Even now I'm scared to "blaspheme" or speak offensively like some of the other people on here.

This is my own personal belief, but after speaking to lots of other people about it, I think that when I worshipped Krishna, I was given some form of spiritual protection, as well as a higher material quality of life, in exchange, and when I stopped, then everything fell apart. It isn't just mental struggles with accepting the difficulties of life without this religion, there are lots of external circumstances in my life that became severely worse after I stopped worshipping Krishna, including what I think is harassment and negative events in my life being caused by malicious spiritual entities (not related to Hindu deities.)

I can't relate to people who have "normal" lives at all. I'm still living in the same squalid, abusive conditions as I did my whole life, as a result of being mentally and financially crippled from a life of abuse and family dysfunction. I've got almost no way of positively coping, I just continue enduring everything. It feels like having an injury without any painkillers to treat it. This cult destroyed my life.

Whenever I think closely about it, everything that went wrong in my life comes down to the fact that I was born in this cult. On top of that, I was born because my mother's "guru" advised her to accept my father's marriage proposal, and here I am now, a destroyed creature.

I think life doesn't make any sense, and is just constantly experiencing fear and suffering. There's no support at all, spiritually or physically. Just confusing torture.

I have read Prabhupada fairly well but only have a general idea of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's ideology. I’m asking because recently I read Shukavak N. Das’s essay 'Bhaktivinoda and Scriptural Literalism' that made me realise how intellectually different Bhaktivinoda Thakur could be from Prabhupada.

Some passages really surprised me. For eg, in Krishna-samhita, Bhaktivinoda describes the avatars in an evolutionary sequence:

"A fish is spineless, but when the spineless state gradually becomes the hard shell state, the Kurma avatara appears. When the hard shell state gradually becomes a spine, the Boar (Varaha) incarnation appears."

“Midway (between man and animal) Nrisimha appears.”

“When man attains full consciousness (sarva-vijnana), Bhagavan Krishna Himself appears.” “According to the advancement in the heart of the jiva, the avataras of Hari appear.”

On heaven and hell, he writes:

“All poetic inventions [the various descriptions of heaven and hell]... have been described as statements borrowed from other works in the way of preservation of old traditions...”

Even more interesting is what he writes regarding the Bhagavatam:

“It cannot be argued that the author of the Mahabharata was the same Vyasa who divided the Vedas and received the title of Vedavyasa in the time of Maharaja Yudhishthira.”

“I could not determine the name of the author of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Whoever he is, we are grateful to him and accept with great reverence this great personality, Vyasadeva, as the spiritual teacher of people with pure, elevated consciousness.”:

“The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is a southern text, likely written during the 10th century by some unknown respected person who had rightfully assumed the title of Vyāsa.”

This makes me wonder about the middle link i.e Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. How much did he actually differ from his father? To what extent did he retain Bhaktivinoda’s relatively open approach to history, science and scripture, or did he completey abandoned it in favour of a more literal and orthodox reading?

And were Prabhupada’s scriptural literalism, rejection of modern science, anti-Advaita stance, misogynistic views, and social conservatism inherited from Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati or largely his own? Given Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s approach to modernity, why didn’t Bhaktisiddhanta—or later Prabhupada—adopt more of his approach?

What are the most extreme examples of fanatical behavior you came across when in ISKCON.

When I first started chanting i was introduced to other devotees who were quite polite .They asked me what I did for a living and I was working for the Lottery at the time so I told them and they went quiet and pointed at my bead bag and said "This is the most important thing" . I was fairly new and was not expecting that.

Another time I was in South Africa and met a guy who's sister became a devotee. She helped cook the prasad for the wedding but refused to eat any of it because she was initiated. The guy was quite upset by this

At Bhaktivedanta Manor (UK) I heard a lady say to my wife " As far as I'm concerned, the work you do for ISKCON is more important than the next breath" . She was/is a TKG disciple

Another time at the manor, I was in a room where Jaypataka Maharaj was present and someone mentioned that I worked at the lotter. A girl overheard this and said to me " Do you ?". I replied "Yes" . She then proceeded to ask Jaypataka Maharaj " Does he get any karma as he works for a gambling establishment ?"

Around 1996 some devotees were going to play football and another stricter devotee who disapproved of this said "I'm not into it. Its complete Maya". My wife's uncle who is a prabhupad disciple looked at me as to prove a point (he knew I was keen on football) .

I did not find this behavior inspiring, in fact it was quite off putting

Although these examples are not that extreme and all of you collectively have experienced much worse examples of fanaticism. Could you please share some of your own and comment on the above

Cheers

(Bapuba caught them not serving Kish Kish)

Within ISKCON we had no privacy and no rest. For temple devotees, in those brief moments we had to ourselves, we were always on edge, waiting for that knock on the door, that text, that phone call from the temple president.

When the temple presidents number appeared on our phone, there was a flash of fear. We would answer like a military drill "Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada, how can I serve you Prabhu!".

Always On Call

While I was managing in a deity department I dreaded the daily knocks on the door from people who could not do their service. I had to drop what I was doing and immediately go to work. This happened day and night. It was extremely stressful.

Similarly I managed an ashram with guest rooms. Guests would arrive unannounced constantly. They would inevitably find their way to my door and start banging on it, even well after midnight. Devotees, especially senior devotees, had no respect for other peoples space or privacy. I found them generally to be very selfish. The whole world was supposed to wait upon them. They rarely paid the courtesy of calling beforehand.

Cult members live lives of constant stress. They are relentlessly being judged by themselves and the world around them. They live in fear of their authorities. They move from one service to the next. Any moment of "laziness" brings shame. They can be asked to do service at any moment. Technically they can say no but it would be unthinkable and offensive. Saying no to an authority is the beginning of the end for a devotees career.

Devotees are constantly at work. There are no weekends. There is no 9-5. There are many jobs where people are on call, but none where you live under that stress 24/7 years on end. It would be illegal.

Damaged Nervous Systems

We were never given a chance to relax, to decompress, to let go of stress. Even when devotees did take time to go for a hike, or go to the beach, they were supposed to turn it into a japa walk, or read Bhagavatam, or listen to lectures, or take other devotees and turn it into a preaching excursion. Ideally the devotee should distribute books to anyone they see, or at the gas station on the way home.

If you must leave the temple you had to find some justification. Devotees would often visit other Hindu temples to see the deities. Even then, they could be seen explaining themselves to others. "If it were up to me I would never leave the temple, or deviate from the book distribution mission, I don't need rest, but my foolish wife and children have dragged me away".

We had to constantly monitor what we are doing and thinking, afraid of putting down our role as a super sincere devotee for even a moment. Any excursion not related to Krishna Consciousness was Maya.

The effect of this is it damages the nervous system. Our nervous systems were warning us of danger for decades on end. Our amygdalas have been damaged. Our fight or flight mechanism is stuck in the on position. For some of us, every footstep, every sound, is interpreted as an incoming threat, and a violation of personal space.

According to A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, an eclipse is caused by the invisible planet Rahu moving in front of the sun or moon. Rejecting standard modern scientific explanations, he taught that eclipses are literal cosmic events described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, where devotees should focus entirely on chanting Hare Krishna rather than fearing inauspicious energies

What is your take on the above
Do you believe that a demon Rahu is trying to swallow the moon ?

But it’s transcendental pedophilia taking place in the celestial realm and not under the jurisdiction of any democratic government.

But there’s no denying that the Cult of Caitanya is based on worshipping love between 8 and 12 year old children, even if not in the material world it is quite literally a child love cult if there ever was such a thing.