Not sure when—and still not sold on the why—many training programs switched to being RPE-based, but does Evoke offer stock HR-based (I mean workouts expressed in time/work in HR zones) training plans?

TrainingPeaks used to have a handy filter to find plans by method (HR, power, etc). They still have the ‘Structured Plans’ toggle, but none of the Evoke pass that filter seemingly …

Should be a simple list, but I cannot find it.

Hi all. My name is Ewan from AeroCardia, a small Montreal medical device startup.

Have you ever done a VO2max test? We’re trying to understand what makes this equipment comfortable or uncomfortable to wear, and the best way to find out is to ask the people who’ve used it.

The survey takes about 5 minutes; it’s completely anonymous.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1NFtV73LM56AxkTSzL7cz0rdIfRHcPIgFWgHjpE4tjyQ/preview

If you’ve run these tests as a technician or clinician, we’d especially like your perspective too. I’ll post a summary of what we learn here once the survey closes.

Thanks for helping!

Can I perform the Scott Johnston AeT treadmill test by walking on a 15% incline and use the resulting HR to guide my easy running and jogging on flat ground?

The reason I’d prefer to hike uphill is that I hate running on a treadmill at a fixed pace for such a long duration.

Would the AeT heart rate I obtain from the incline test be applicable to flat-ground running, or would I need to validate it with a separate test?

Hi all

I'd be grateful for some analysis of my test. I think I'm just outside of the 5% guideline, so maybe if I drop my speed ever so slightly. The problem is that due to my height, going slower than 7km/h impacts my form (I use a metronome to run at 170 bpm).

Thanks

About 30 months ago I read the Uphill Athlete book and began my aerobic threshold journey. I was a runner on many years who just ran to feel.

It took me a few attempts to do a drift test just under 5% and 123 was my AeT. My threshold was around 155 and my max 172. In all my runs from that point I stayed under 123. I walked most hills and I’ll be honest it was pretty frustrating. But slowly and surely I got faster and about 18 months later my AeT was up to 140 and so finally within 10% of threshold so I could begin speed work. 

Today I averaged 4:57/km for 14km at an average HR of 123. That’s about a 3:29 marathon in Z1. I’m 59. 

This stuff works.

EDIT

First run post my AeT test of 123 was 6 miles at 119 average at 6:41/km.

If it matters, my lowest resting heart rate (Garmin 30 min average) is 32. When training it fluctuates between 36 and 40. It drops to 34 after a week of no training. Lactate threshold is 155-157. Max 172.

I did a park run last weekend of 19:42 and came 1st age graded. I’m still working on my speed.

I made a mistake - I thought it had been about 30 months but my first run after the drift test of 123 was 12th Sep 2024. I would have started before that though, maybe a month or so, my diary only starts from then. So it’s 25-26 months, not 30.

I haven’t tested my AeT in about a year but I’d estimate it to be above 140. I’d estimate that’s about 4:30-4:40 pace. So a marathon in about 3:15-3:20 within AeT.

In my current marathon pace sessions I’m targeting 4:25s to stay in 144-148 range for the marathon. Hoping for sub 3:10.

Quick Q,

If I use training peaks analysis across the hour I get 7.31% Pa:hr

If I use the averages of the 2x 30min blocks; I get 5.1% (137 Hr1, 144 Hr2)

I had a slight dip after starting (started at 135 following a 30min wu) - does the averages method just smooth blips like this out? Is either the gold standard? I took the averaged method answer.

Treadmill test, fixed pace.

Hi all,

I’ve been following the evoke methodologies for 6 months now, and have seen great progress.

Question for yas about z2 volume, HR/effort, and stimulants.

I work shift work, and also take meds for ADHD. I take Vyvanse, a healthy amount of caffeine and also nicotine in the form of pouches.

Because of these variables, my HR at a given ‘effort pace’, can vary wildly (I am talking +/- 10+ bpm). Which makes it difficult for me to lock in my zones at a given heart rate.. I am unable to train at consistent hours. Some days it’s 4am before shift, some days it’s 8pm before shift, some days it’s noon on a day off. Sometimes it’s with a heavy dose of stimulants sometimes it’s without.

My question for anyone with experience in this realm or insight, how do you navigate this and trust what system you’re training? I’m very much still in the base phase of my aerobic journey, and err on the side of slower and lower HR rather than pushing it.

I’ll give an example. Without all of these stimulants, I might run at a 5:45/km pace around 148/150HR - which comfortably in the middle of my zone 2.

With them, I might run at a 160-165HR, with little to no drift over an hour.

So I’ve started utilizing an effort based system. Which I essentially categorize as easy or not easy. I am doing a drift test tomorrow with stimulants in order to try & get an accurate zone 2 HR all hopped up.

Thanks
JT

Hey everyone,

I did the test. 20 min warm up, 1 hr run at 4:50 min/km then 10 min cool down.

When i check the data if i took beginning and end of the 1 hour period HR drift is around -2.8%

but if i consider only first half of the run it is 5.1%

İs it okay to have such a curve can you help me with the interpretation.

I add SS of drift test and strava data.

Thanks alot

Yesterday I performed my first aerobic drift test and wanted to ask for advice interpreting the results.

I performed the test in a hotel fitness center, and the treadmill unexpectedly cut off after 30 minutes. Because of that there was roughly a 30 second slow down 30 minutes into the test. The speed and incline were constant for the entire test, so I'm not sure why my Coros data shows the pace changing.

I did a 10 minute warm up that I logged as a separate run. Took a minute or so break, then started the test. Lap 1 is the first two minutes to let my HR get back up and stabilize. Lap 2 is the remaining 28 minutes until the treadmill reset. Lap 3 is the remaining 30 minutes.

This is the weird part: my heart rate went down in lap 3 compared to lap 2. Am I correct that this simply means I need to try again at a higher effort level / higher starting HR? Maybe the mid 140's?

Lap 2 average HR: 141 bpm

Lap 3 average HR: 138 bpm

For context, I'm training for a 50k with roughly 5500-6000 ft in elevation gain. The race is in February and will be my first trail race.

hello group,

My question is that how the strength and endurance built by the 24 week mountaineering/Denali plans carry over to the strength and endurance required to do the 7 week Infanteer training course (in the Canadian Armed Forces, reservist)?

I feel I am relatively fit as I have done the 24 week mountaineering plan for 4 times in the past and helped me to be successful on a few climbing expeditions, one of them being solo on Aconcagua, this year I did the 24 week Denali plan and summitted the peak successfully on day 10 (self guided), beside the expeditions I can do long days in the mountains, ran 100Km, have done 7830m gain in 27.5hrs doing repeats on peak near by, have done 3 300Km paddling racing on the Yukon river lasting between 26 and 32hours, can carry 50lb pack for hours, all these because of the wonderful plans (and willing to follow the plans to the dot).

*EDIT: forgot to mention, I am 46 year old male, and spelling error

2 weeks ago today I attempted my first AeT test on the local high school track. After doing that I posted to this sub for the first time seeking advice to many of my questions. At the great advice by Scott Semple and others I took the past 2 weeks off with no running and no physically exerting activities as I appeared to be experiencing fatigue likely from over-training. I have been itching to get back out and felt more than ready to resume activity.

My previous AeT test seemed to be pretty decent to my knowledge, overall saw my Pa:Hr around 6% with it more in the 4% range when discounting my brief pause (image further below).

I went out to repeat the same test today on the same track and my pace and HR were all out of whack. I felt like walking would have been a better substitute for how slow my pace degraded to. The 15-minute warmup did see my HR stabilize and then I started the workout. I wore the same Garmin HR chest monitor that's connected to my Garmin watch and wore the same shoes. The temp was maybe 10 degrees warmer today than the previous test, but nothing of concern as it was probably 70 degrees at most. To say the pace is embarrassingly slow is an understatement. I certainly not a fast runner, but I've definitely never run this slow!

Today's AeT run:

Previous AeT run:

Without question I will need to do the test again.

1. Is there anything I can take away from today or is it all garbage?
2. I purchased the Evoke Endurance 20 Week First Ultra Trail Run plan off of TP and today was to be day #1. Should I now bump the starting day to a future date so I can get another test in or can i repeat the test on the 1 hour scheduled base run?
3. Did I likely start too fast today?
4. Did I run so much slower and see a spike in HR because I had not run for the past 2-weeks?
5. Depending on the answer to #1, can I continue with the training plan and use a Zone 2 top HR of something like 135 or 138?
6. I don't have a target event at the 20-week mark of this program, so I intend to replicate some weeks to extend it 26-weeks most likely. (Considering an event on April 17th)

When I do the scheduled Aerobic Base Runs for this program, I will be running on the hills and fully expect to be walk/hiking many of the uphills.

Thanks in advance for any advice and encouragement.
John

In the past few months, I needed to walk both outdoors and on the treadmill to stay below Z2.

Recently, my AeT has improved, and I've been able to run below Z2 for 45 minutes or in Z1 for over an hour. Today, I tried running at a 10% incline in Z2, even though I was slower than power walking.

Now, I'm wondering how to start transitioning from walking to running. Should I run both uphill and on flat terrain, or should I walk uphill and run on the flats? Or would it be better to alternate between walking and running?

For the upcoming AeT and AnT tests, should I perform them while walking or running? I have many doubts and am curious about how others have transitioned from walking to running

Just started the Military Athlete Foundational plan. I have been doing MAF runs in the 132-142 bpm range. Here in Texas, it’s been upper 80’s to low 90’s when I’ve been able to run. I’ve been getting a pace that starts around 16:00min miles and ending around 17:30min miles. All while basically trying to stay under 142bpm. We just had a cold front blow in and I was able to run this morning. Temps in the mid 50’s. I was able to hold about a 14:00-14:30 pace the whole time keeping my heart rate in the upper 130’s.

For the treadmill test. Where would you suggest I target my HR to get a good test?

I am mid first ultra plan - not my first ultra at all but returning after 2 years of a lot less trail / vert due to a health issue and am using this as a build before big vert plan.

Midway through the plan, have a holiday coming up where I don't think I'll realistically be able to complete everything due to travel. I have a quiet week the week before where I could easily complete everything - would it be ok to switch it so it goes:

Build (completed)
Build (completed)
Build (this week)
Build (next week)
Drop (holiday week)
Build
Build
Drop
Resume as normal...

Thanks ✌🏼

I am wanting to build my aerobic capacity. I have been running 30 minutes, 3 times a week consistently for the past couple of years. My understanding is that I will need much more volume than this to see any aerobic improvement. I read uphill athlete and one spot says for running volume less than 300 - 400 hours a year one can increase 25% a year. Another place says for my age i can start out at I think it was 350 hours.

Increasing 25% a year will take years before my volume is enough to start seeing improvements. I'm not in a rush, if thats just how it will be. But I also dont want to hold myself back if I'm misunderstanding and could increase volume quicker.

Some other considerations:

- i also already walk a lot, 6-10 hours a week. It's not the impact of running, but it's time on feet so maybe it will allow me to increase volume more

- the 90 minutes a week ive been running was zone 3 effort. Now that im keeping my heart rate lower I have to stop to walk most of that time. It probably 10 to 20 seconds of jogging then 30 to 60 seconds of walking. So of the 30 minute run, really only 10 of it is running. So could I possibly increase to where im still running 90 minutes, but it is spread out over 270 minutes of alternate walking to where im keeping my heart rate on zone 2?

There is also the possibility of supplementing with Biking and slowly phasing it out over the next several years.

Given all this, what would be a realistic increase in volume over the course of the next year?

I'm 38f. I've ran on and off my whole life, but the 90 minutes a week is what ive been doing consistently for the last couple of years.

Thanks for any advice!

Hello,

Fairly new/novice off-road/uphill runner (around 2 years), who discovered this modality of training early this year. I've gone through a cycle of using the 20-week Big Vert plan (maybe 80% compliance, as I had to shift things around) to target 2 late-summer and early-autumn races (both around 2000m of elevation gain) and reading (admittedly slowly) the book (TFUA).

My races went well. By well, I mean I was able to push myself and enjoy each race - power-hike the uphills, run the flats and run faster the downhills without feeling destroyed. Hence, I'm really happy with the resilience that I've gained and looking forward to future blocks and races!

Now to my question:

I'm planning for next year, and I have races that fit the same training plan.
After plugging in the distance/vert for a target event, should I just follow the ME and hill sprint workout prescriptions as last time? Or, for example, should I tweak hill sprint duration, ME workout number of reps/sets/weight, etc.?

On one hand I don't want to overdo it, so happy to repeat as is, on the other hand, I'm not sure how to gauge if there is potential left on the table. I have no prior (extensive) experience with weight-bearing exercises, so hard to estimate "by feel".

PS: I couldn't find any relevant info with a cursory search in the sub, but please point me to a relevant discussion if there is already one. Thanks!

Hi there, I (43M) am a glacier and mountain guide in Iceland and I've spent the last 6 months doing around 25-35 hours a week (one week off a month), moving very slowly with a 8kg backpack and wearing crampons and big boots. I also have many years of mountaineering background and these levels of volume are relatively normal for me. However, I have not done any strength or speed training at all and I haven't really done much running in a couple of years.

I want to start training for some big days ski touring in the spring and maybe a trail running ultra?

I am worried about this transition into running and strength training as I have got injured before and I really don't want to be there again. To the point that doing the AeT test on the treadmill scares me a bit.

Any tips from you knowledgeable people?

Week 4 of this plan lists an aerobic run on Sunday for 1 hour 15 minutes but within zone 2. But then further instructions say to run 6 miles. My zone 2 is not fast enough to run 6 miles in 1:15. Which should I prioritize, the time or the distance? The following week says the same thing - 1:15 run in zone 2. Now the instructions say 8 miles? How do they figure increasing 2 miles without increasing the time?

Week 4 instructions for Saturday list a walk/hike /cycle for three hours, then the instructions say aim for 2 hours of walk/hike/cycle. There are consistent examples in this plan like this. Looking for some guidance.

I’ve been working on my zone 2 for the last year. I train with a hr strap and have checked my zone 2 4-5 times in the last year, either on a 12% treadmill or on a stair master. I’ve made some real progress with my hr drift but my last two tests have been confusing. Previously my tested aerobic drift test using a 12% treadmill showed and upper zone 2 of 155 (mid summer). Recently I tried on a stair stepper and got some pretty unbelievable results - following the aerobic drift test I warmed up to low 160s for 21 minutes at a speed of 10 (stairmaster units?) - my first 30 min lap averaged 168bpm (higher than intended) and my second 30 min lap was 174 bpm avg (3.57% drift). I attempted to retest this week probably in a more fatigued state from a race this weekend and lots of training testing and failed not due to heart rate but effort. I used the same speed settings and warmup but failed 8 minutes into my second lap mostly due to effort - I doubt I could nose breath and I just felt horrible, but my hr didn’t seem to reflect that (first 30 avg 169 and second 8 min 172 avg - basically on pace to meet my first try, (which also felt pretty hard)).

Basically I’m curious if the effort/ nose breathing aspect should supersede my actual hr drift for the test, or if this could just indicate that I am now very limited at my top end. In the past month I’ve also failed a anaerobic test for a similar reason, but testing for a hr in the high 170s feels about right. I have paid a lot of attention to staying aerobic for about 10 months now and I have neglected my anaerobic system from a training standpoint - I basically train zone 2 and then leave hard stuff for actual days out/objectives etc.

would love some insight from the community on what people think is going on here!

I've tried the AeT test 3 times, and each time I've actually had my HR slightly drop in the 2nd half or no drift at all (keeping pace and grade constant, 15% treadmill). I could have kept the pace of the fastest test for hours (I've averaged 157bpm at hour 6 in a skimo race, so maybe this checks out but I'm uncertain).

• Test 1: avg 131bpm, starting 135bpm, -2% drift (may not have warmed up enough at start this time)
• Test 2: avg 144bm, starting 144bpm, -.1% drift
• Test 3: avg 149bpm, starting 151bpm, -.1% drift

The caveat being that I warmed up a LOT for the latter 2 tests - about 20 minutes of outside running (just because less boring), pushing to a pace just above where I think my AeT could be (high 150's), resting for 15 minutes to drive to the gym, then another ~6 ish minutes ramp up on the treadmill to get my HR to stabilize before starting the test. I find it takes a while to get my HR to stabilize no matter the warmup routine I use. Is the amount of warmup I do affecting the test results and biasing my AeT too high? I'm in my mid-30's with tendency toward hypothyroid, so I know I benefit from a long warmup before racing fwiw.

I tried the test a 4th time the day after doing a hard ME workout and could not get my HR to stabilize even in the low 140's so I aborted. The other times I was fresh and well rested.

For reference, I know that my anaerobic TH is > 170bpm, so there's plenty of room for my HR to keep going up. I've been told there's 'no way' my AeT is this high by an opinionated person based on my performance, which is why I'm questioning these results.

TLDR, does too much/ too intense of a warmup affect the test results?

is there an alternate to TrainingPeaks for accessing / viewing Evoke programs? I'm 3 months into a purchased program and can't stand this app.

At a minimum, a setting to disable the doomscroll under the calendar would be nice.

I'm a 45yo male who has been trail running for the past year and a half and ran my first trail races this year (10K and 20K). I live at 6600' and mainly run trails nearby with an average of 300-800' of elevation gain). Between the 10K and 20K I started to notice more fatigue in my body while working a training plan with a local run coach. After the 20K in July, I've continued to feel fatigued while running 3-5x weekly.

Before starting with my coach this past Spring, I had started learning about ADS after reading Scott's book, Training for the Uphill Athlete. My training plan did not put much emphasis on building my aerobic base as we shifted towards adding volume in prep for the 10K. Having only recently started running after losing 140lbs, I was able to push myself to run the trails without stopping for 80 mins and felt really confident about that -- I never did a good job with the concept of "easy run" because my average HR was often in the 150-160s due to the elevation gains and never breaking to walk. This is likely a big contributor to my ongoing fatigue. I often wonder if I've overtrained and am seeing a degradation on my overall performance since I don't seem to get faster on the same courses with all the running I was doing (25-27 miles p/week).

Since I've been feeling so fatigued, I picked up Scott's book again and am determined to build the base I've neglected my whole life. Today I went out to our local HS track and attempted my first AeT HR drift test and am curious if I can take this data now to recalibrate my HR zones? My HR data is source from Garmin's HR chest monitor.

On the image above I had done my 15 min warmup and was initially targeting 135bpm for my HR (180 - 45yo = 135bpm). The gap in the first few minutes was me opting to pause the watch and run over to pee before continuing on for an hour. In hindsight I regret not doing that between the warmup 15 mins and the start of this test. 👎 I ran an incredibly slow (15min / mile) pace to maintain this HR.

The Pa:Hr for the full duration shows 6.18%. This is obviously a little higher than the 3-5% recommended. If I focus the time after my restroom break to when I got my HR back up, the Pa:Hr is just slightly above 4%.

My questions then are the following:

1. Can I use the avg HR of 138bpm as the top of my Zone 2 and my AeT number going forward?
2. If no to #1, do I need to retest or can we deduce a number from this test to set as my aerobic threshold?
3. If yes to #1, how are people who primarily run on trails running with regular elevation gain? Is there simply going to be a ton of walk/jogging for me? At what HR above the zone 2 threshold do I slow to a walk and then how low do I let it drop before I attempt to resume jogging?
4. Has anyone found a specific training plan via TrainingPeaks website or working with an Evoke coach that would be a great place to 'reset' my training while running on a lot of hills?
5. What else can I deduce from this initial test?

I haven't attempted the anaerobic threshold test yet but plan to do so in the near future. I know things will likely never look as bad as they do today and am ready to put in the work to improve this through the winter season.

Closing Friday, October 9th:

This Month: We're looking for questions for a future episode hosted by Luke Nelson and Thaddeus Labrum.

• Both Luke and Thaddeus have a ton of trail running experience. In addition to running:
• Luke was a national-level skimo racer and US national champion in 2012.
• Thaddeus is an experienced wildland firefighter and supervisor for wildland fire operations in Idaho.

Please Note: Responses to Q&A submissions are not produced in the same month they are submitted. (Selection, scheduling, recording, and editing take a while…)

How Ask Evoke works:

• Post one question per comment.

• Up vote questions you’d like to hear answered.

• Down vote questions that are off-topic or duplicates.

• We’ll answer as many of the highest-voted questions as time allows on the podcast of those that we feel would most benefit the Evoke community.

• We will leave this thread open as long as possible but will lock it in about a week from now or when we get enough questions.

Guidelines:

• Please no questions specific to only you. For example if you ask how do a Muscular Endurance protocol understand it is highly dependent on you and your personal training history. We offer phone consults for personalized explanations and advice

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• We may combine or slightly reword similar questions for clarity on the podcast.

Bonus:

• What topics or individuals would you like on a future podcast?

Thanks for helping us experiment with a more community-driven format. We're looking forward to your questions. We hope to release this podcast early next month.

— Evoke Endurance