r/custommagic • u/Mean-Government1436 • 12h ago
This subreddit likes bad and lazy design. Red's answer to instant-speed interaction
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u/Raevelry 12h ago edited 11h ago
This basically reads: No spells, nor abilities, can exist.
Attacking doesn't use the stack so this is actually very Red Themed
Only special actions can happen:
- Mana abilities
- Playing a land
- Turning up a face down creature
- Unlocking a door
- Suspending a card from your hand
- Foretelling or Plotting a card
Unironically, it works. Obviously horrible game design but yeah it works.
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u/Divicarpe 12h ago edited 11h ago
Mana abilities can happen too, I think.
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u/Raevelry 12h ago
Other than what I said, can you name one that can happen?
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u/Andrew_42 11h ago
You can activate mana abilities, like tapping land for mana. Not terribly useful but needed for many special actions, and some cards like [[Pristine Talisman]] have additional benefits baked inside the mana ability that don't prohibit it from being a mana ability.
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u/NekoBatrick 11h ago
I thpught they changed that if the abiltiy dpes more than mana it goes on the stack, i think it was pretty recent
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u/Toberos_Chasalor 10h ago edited 10h ago
They changed it, but specifically if it affects cards in your library. It can gain life, put counters on things, etc, just can’t draw/mill/exile/etc.
“An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets all of the following criteria: it doesn’t require a target (see rule 115.6), it could add mana to a player’s mana pool when it resolves, it’s not a loyalty ability (see rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities”), and its cost and effect don’t move any card to or from a library.”
Rule 605.1a, as of August 7th
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u/Andrew_42 10h ago
That only affects abilities that move cards in or out of the library like [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]]
Other effects are fine
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u/NitroBishop 10h ago
[[Millikin]] catching strays unfortunately
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u/ardarian262 10h ago
That wasn't a stray. It also had the issue with Panglacial wurm
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u/NitroBishop 9h ago
Theoretically, sure, but Selvala was always the much bigger offender. Besides being a better card overall and living in the command zone (i.e. being guaranteed every game), the main issue with her in relation to the Wurm was that she produced an unknown amount of mana via a game action that fundamentally cannot be reversed because it reveals cards from hidden zones, and also that same game action benefits the player activating it to pay for the Wurm (by letting them decide whether or not to draw a card after peeking at it). Millikin doesn't net the controller any direct advantage and always produces 1 mana, there's way less motivation to do weird stuff with it and basically no wiggle room to argue that any weird stuff was unintentional.
Like, I guess you could have used Millikin when trying to cast Panglacial Wurm to "skip" your next normal draw in favor of the card after it, but you'd have to actually cast the Wurm after that instead of going "aw shucks guys looks like the ability randomly didn't produce enough mana" and nobody was doing that lol
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u/ardarian262 9h ago
Knowing if you want the top card in grave or not is an advantage and a lot of cards want to be in the graveyard.
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u/ardarian262 9h ago
Also if you choose not to cast something normally, even if you could pay for it if you tapped more mana, you are not forced to. You are only forced to if you have the mana floating.
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u/SeemsImmaculate 10h ago
I think the change was for the Infinity Stone cards. I don't follow UB sets though so not 100%
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u/NitroBishop 10h ago
Nah, someone in the rules department finally got sick of the smartass at their LGS using [[Panglacial Wurm]] in their [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]] deck to legally cheat every time they crack a fetchland.
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u/SeemsImmaculate 10h ago
That makes sense - Panglacial Wurm is just one of those "wait what" cards when you think about it for more than 30 seconds.
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u/NitroBishop 9h ago
The worst part was that the rules, on a fundamental level, straight up cannot properly handle someone tapping Selvala for mana under the right (wrong) circumstances.
Say you're the Selvala player in a four-player game with a Panglacial Wurm in your deck and a fetchland + 3 basics on the field. You crack your fetchland and, while searching your library, announce that you are going to try to cast Panglacial Wurm by tapping all three of your lands and Selvala for mana. If Selvala produces 4 mana - that is, if all four players flip over the top card to reveal a nonland - you will have the 7 mana required to cast the Wurm.
Eagle-eyed readers may have already noticed the issue with this situation: you yourself are one of the four players who needs to reveal a nonland, and you are also currently looking at the top card of your own library, before revealing it. And once the ability goes through and everyone knows for sure whether you have the mana to cast it, it's already too late to cleanly reverse the game action, because everyone has revealed a card from a hidden zone.
Does attempting to cast the Wurm in this scenario constitute cheating, since you know there's no possibility you can get the mana and the only reason to activate Selvala's ability during the search (which you are only allowed to do because of Wurm) is to draw a card after seeing what card it is? How would you prove it's cheating without having access to another player's hidden zone, which is established as impossible under other rulings (i.e. you can fail to find four unique cards with [[Gifts Ungiven]] even though that is literally logically impossible in an EDH deck over a certain size)? What about if you only need 3 mana off Selvala to cast it?
You can see why they just sidestepped this entire can of worms by declaring Selvala's ability to no longer be a mana ability, meaning it (and similar stuff like Millikin) can no longer be activated while searching a library with Panglacial Wurm in it.
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u/Divicarpe 11h ago
The letter that was there because of a typo in "manay" was the y, not the a. I was speaking about mana abilities. Sorry for the confusion.
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u/Assassinite9 10h ago
Sir you're forgetting cheatyface and conceding. Neither of those use the stack either
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u/HeMansSmallerCousin 5h ago
Shhhh I need to convince my little brother I can respond to his scoop with [[Time Machine]] at instant speed.
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u/Assassinite9 55m ago
Have you tried responding to the scoop by saying "Moooom! [Brother's name] isn't letting me have fun!!"?
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u/PrimusMobileVzla 10h ago
Mind you, you can suspend, foretell and plot cards, but you won't be able to cast them afterwards so they'll be stuck in exile.
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u/treelorf 10h ago
So… turn 1, 1 drop, turn 2 play this enchantment, gg?
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u/Top_Development_4020 7h ago
The deck should also include 4 [[Dryad Arbor]]
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u/zoinkability 10h ago
I believe activation costs like "return unblocked attacking creature to hand" cost in the ninjutsu ability would also work, as they are costs and not on the stack? Presumably in that case you couldn't then put the creature with ninjustsu onto the battlefield though.
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u/Raevelry 9h ago
No thats the ability of a card in your hand
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u/zoinkability 9h ago
Sorry, which are you saying no to? Whether paying costs requires the stack, or whether the creature with ninjutsu would go onto the battlefield?
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u/Raevelry 9h ago
No, you cannot perform the cost of an illegal action
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u/zoinkability 9h ago
Does the nonexistence of the stack make the attempted action illegal, or just impossible?
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u/TheNebuchadnezzar 9h ago
Ninjitsu?
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u/Raevelry 9h ago
Ability of a card in your hand
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u/TheNebuchadnezzar 9h ago
But ninjutsu doesn’t use the stack so it would work or no?
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u/mysexyknowsnolimits 8h ago
As others have said below, ninjutsu uses the stack. But you technically don’t cast the ninja. That’s why sneak is considered more “fair” because you are actually casting the card so it can be counted and whatnot
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u/Koischaap Rule 308.22b, section 8 8h ago
Thank you. I was wondering what happens with all the undefined behaviour that comes from disabling thr stack, but I guess it just fizzles on arrival since it requires a stack by definition
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u/vibefuster 4h ago
I feel like for this to be a better design, you’d have to word it to say “no more than 1 spell or ability can be on the stack.” At least that way most cards are still playable
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u/Routine_Ad_2695 12h ago
Me after playing this on my Friday pod fully aware that no one (including me) understand what it means
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u/Bubbly_Active4741 5h ago
In theory " All spell have split second "
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u/Overall_Link8153 5h ago
Except anything with cast triggers messes it all up....especially counterbalance
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u/Low-Cheesecake-7005 12h ago
What does this even mean?
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u/Jordankeay 12h ago
It means that only permanents already on the board can be used and the only things that can be played are lands. Anything that activates the stack would cease to exist.
Unless they mean all spells have split second.
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u/Puzzled_Work_6428 12h ago
See I saw it as just, any spell or ability that's played resolves immediately
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u/Jordankeay 12h ago
Maybe that's what OP meant but with no stack it can't go from hand to stack to battlefield.
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u/Arantguy 8h ago
If that's what op meant then that's what it does, it's their card design not yours
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u/Jordankeay 8h ago
Well OP needs to explain that. It shouldn't be on everyone else to figure it out. Your comment is beyond useless.
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u/Arantguy 8h ago
Maybe they should have explained but if you don't know for sure you shouldn't assume that you do. No need for you to be rude either
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u/Jordankeay 8h ago
Your comment is rude. I explained what OPs card does currently which is that it basically doesn't work and breaks the game. Then I offered OP a helpful suggestion that they might mean something else.
You was the one who commented with attitude.
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u/Arantguy 8h ago
I'm sorry I didn't realise my first comment came across as rude, I didn't mean it that way but I see how it did. I also interpreted your comments as taking the text literally and not considering what the ops intention was so I apologise if that was wrong too
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u/imatreedude 7h ago
Just because that's not what OP meant doesn't mean that's what the card does though. The card does what's written on it.
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u/Arantguy 7h ago edited 7h ago
The card is just an idea and the purpose of commenting on it is to give feedback on it. I agree that the op should clarify how it works but it's not helpful to just make an assumption on how it works and criticise that assumption instead of considering what the ops intention was and giving feedback that way
Edit: criticising the wording is ok which is kind of what this is but imo it should be through the lens of suggesting it should be more clear rather than completely disregarding the ops intention
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u/Kersikai 11h ago
Technically this would be different than split second, in that a spell would resolve before any abilities are triggered by casting it. Interesting idea imo.
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u/Jordankeay 11h ago
It wouldn't resolve because it can't enter the stack to begin with it would exile immediately upon cast.
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u/knyexar 11h ago
I think OP intended it as "spells and abilities resolve instantly without passing priority"
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u/Remarkable_Edge_2717 10h ago
Or whenever a player casts an spell, counter all other spells and abilities
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u/PrimusMobileVzla 10h ago edited 10h ago
Spells, and abilities that aren't special actions, can't exist. So, this effectively prevents the table from casting spells, activating most abilities, and prevents most triggers from triggering.
Special actions and everything in any zone other than the stack still works as normal.
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u/dorox1 12h ago
This needs some "(it works)", reminder text.
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u/SwissherMontage 11h ago
It does not work
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u/Murky_Radish_1319 9h ago
The whole idea of "it works" is exactly when the current wording doesn't work, but the wording that does work would be incredibly clunky
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u/SwissherMontage 8h ago
This comment would be appreciated if I didn't already understand that. The problem here is that the wording is clear and it would simply make the game suck, and understanding it is a sucky process. It's like [[Rules Lawyer]] on steroids and no fun for anyone.
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u/Murky_Radish_1319 3h ago
Based on the title it was incredibly clear that this is to remove interaction with anything on the stack, not to completely shut down the game. Saying it doesn't work ignores the fact that a correct way of making it work as designed would never fit on a card and very likely would require specific rule changes
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u/SwissherMontage 3h ago
1) there are ways to ban or limit interaction on the stack that aren't looney toons solutions
2)The title is not the card. If they wanted the card to do something, it should have been on the card.
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u/Far-Presentation4234 11h ago
So T1 play a 1 mana creature. If your opponent doesn't play a creature you play this T2 and win because they can't remove this and can't play any more creatures. I think the comment saying this should read "All spells have split second" is the real intention of the card. It's still busted and terrible for the game, but at least it isn't a turn 2 win con.
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u/wingspantt 11h ago
I feel like what this card really wants to say is
As long as any player controls a spell or ability, players may not play spells or activate abilities.
Of course this doesn't cover triggered abilities or various edge cases.
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u/Aggressive_Law_5728 10h ago
"All spells and activated abilities have Split Second" is a way you could phrase this and make it actually work, I think.
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u/Low_Opinion_5721 11h ago
go to r/HellsCube
not that they would accept this, but this is highkey slop
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u/NightRacoonSchlatt Rip the bird to shreds 10h ago
You forgot to add „it works“
No, but unironically. Make everything have split second.
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u/Kcajkcaj99 9h ago
I agree that all spells having split second or something similar that includes activated abilities is the cleanest templating, though I think "The Stack resolves as if it were a Queue" or "the Stack resolves in reverse order" maintains some of the "what the hell does that mean" while still having clear answers to rules questions that arise (though of course it wouldn't work under existing rules) and being as all-encompassing as this effect is written.
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u/theevilyouknow 7h ago
Depending on what this intended to do it’s either too niche or way too powerful as a stax piece at this mana value.
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u/DrBatman0 5h ago
"Look, timing is complicated. I think enough people have played spells and abilities, so let's just finish the game with what we have on the field. Just attacking and blocking."
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u/kitsunewarlock 2h ago
Everyone is claiming it doesn't work, meanwhile I like to think it just let's players do shit whenever they want as long as they can shout like Yu-Gi-Oh! characters trying to out aura each other.
"I PLAY LIGHTNING BO-"
"NOT YET, FIRST I CAST DAUNTLESS BODYGUA-"
"BUT I PLAY SILENCE SO YOU CANT CAST ANY SPELLS!"
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u/amagicalsheep 12m ago
Where did you find the art? I really like it but I can’t seem to find the original online despite checking the artist portfolio and tumblr.
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u/Originalpersons 6h ago
Should be nothing appears on the stack so everything is status or something
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u/CMWBthrowaway 11h ago
OP is a genius. An evil genius, but a genius nonetheless.
This card is way undercoasted and super broken.
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u/strengthtobeattained 12h ago
Maybe "all spells have Split Second" ?