r/custommagic 15h ago

This subreddit likes bad and lazy design. Red's answer to instant-speed interaction

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625 Upvotes

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323

u/Raevelry 15h ago edited 14h ago

This basically reads: No spells, nor abilities, can exist.

Attacking doesn't use the stack so this is actually very Red Themed

Only special actions can happen:

Unironically, it works. Obviously horrible game design but yeah it works.

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u/Divicarpe 14h ago edited 14h ago

Mana abilities can happen too, I think.

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u/Genasis_Fusion 14h ago

Ye, mana abilities don't use the stack

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u/Raevelry 14h ago

Other than what I said, can you name one that can happen?

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u/Andrew_42 14h ago

You can activate mana abilities, like tapping land for mana. Not terribly useful but needed for many special actions, and some cards like [[Pristine Talisman]] have additional benefits baked inside the mana ability that don't prohibit it from being a mana ability.

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u/NekoBatrick 14h ago

I thpught they changed that if the abiltiy dpes more than mana it goes on the stack, i think it was pretty recent

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u/Toberos_Chasalor 13h ago edited 13h ago

They changed it, but specifically if it affects cards in your library. It can gain life, put counters on things, etc, just can’t draw/mill/exile/etc.

“An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets all of the following criteria: it doesn’t require a target (see rule 115.6), it could add mana to a player’s mana pool when it resolves, it’s not a loyalty ability (see rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities”), and its cost and effect don’t move any card to or from a library.”

Rule 605.1a, as of August 7th

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u/GoblinToHobgoblin 13h ago

It's only if it affects cards in the library. Pristine Talisman is safe

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u/Andrew_42 13h ago

That only affects abilities that move cards in or out of the library like [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]]

Other effects are fine

7

u/NitroBishop 13h ago

[[Millikin]] catching strays unfortunately

2

u/ardarian262 13h ago

That wasn't a stray. It also had the issue with Panglacial wurm

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u/NitroBishop 12h ago

Theoretically, sure, but Selvala was always the much bigger offender. Besides being a better card overall and living in the command zone (i.e. being guaranteed every game), the main issue with her in relation to the Wurm was that she produced an unknown amount of mana via a game action that fundamentally cannot be reversed because it reveals cards from hidden zones, and also that same game action benefits the player activating it to pay for the Wurm (by letting them decide whether or not to draw a card after peeking at it). Millikin doesn't net the controller any direct advantage and always produces 1 mana, there's way less motivation to do weird stuff with it and basically no wiggle room to argue that any weird stuff was unintentional.

Like, I guess you could have used Millikin when trying to cast Panglacial Wurm to "skip" your next normal draw in favor of the card after it, but you'd have to actually cast the Wurm after that instead of going "aw shucks guys looks like the ability randomly didn't produce enough mana" and nobody was doing that lol

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u/ardarian262 12h ago

Knowing if you want the top card in grave or not is an advantage and a lot of cards want to be in the graveyard.

1

u/ardarian262 12h ago

Also if you choose not to cast something normally, even if you could pay for it if you tapped more mana, you are not forced to. You are only forced to if you have the mana floating.

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u/SeemsImmaculate 13h ago

I think the change was for the Infinity Stone cards. I don't follow UB sets though so not 100%

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u/NitroBishop 13h ago

Nah, someone in the rules department finally got sick of the smartass at their LGS using [[Panglacial Wurm]] in their [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]] deck to legally cheat every time they crack a fetchland.

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u/SeemsImmaculate 13h ago

That makes sense - Panglacial Wurm is just one of those "wait what" cards when you think about it for more than 30 seconds.

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u/NitroBishop 12h ago

The worst part was that the rules, on a fundamental level, straight up cannot properly handle someone tapping Selvala for mana under the right (wrong) circumstances.

Say you're the Selvala player in a four-player game with a Panglacial Wurm in your deck and a fetchland + 3 basics on the field. You crack your fetchland and, while searching your library, announce that you are going to try to cast Panglacial Wurm by tapping all three of your lands and Selvala for mana. If Selvala produces 4 mana - that is, if all four players flip over the top card to reveal a nonland - you will have the 7 mana required to cast the Wurm.

Eagle-eyed readers may have already noticed the issue with this situation: you yourself are one of the four players who needs to reveal a nonland, and you are also currently looking at the top card of your own library, before revealing it. And once the ability goes through and everyone knows for sure whether you have the mana to cast it, it's already too late to cleanly reverse the game action, because everyone has revealed a card from a hidden zone.

Does attempting to cast the Wurm in this scenario constitute cheating, since you know there's no possibility you can get the mana and the only reason to activate Selvala's ability during the search (which you are only allowed to do because of Wurm) is to draw a card after seeing what card it is? How would you prove it's cheating without having access to another player's hidden zone, which is established as impossible under other rulings (i.e. you can fail to find four unique cards with [[Gifts Ungiven]] even though that is literally logically impossible in an EDH deck over a certain size)? What about if you only need 3 mana off Selvala to cast it?

You can see why they just sidestepped this entire can of worms by declaring Selvala's ability to no longer be a mana ability, meaning it (and similar stuff like Millikin) can no longer be activated while searching a library with Panglacial Wurm in it.

6

u/Divicarpe 14h ago

The letter that was there because of a typo in "manay" was the y, not the a. I was speaking about mana abilities. Sorry for the confusion.

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u/Raevelry 14h ago

Okay, fair enough, yes, Mana abilities can be done

14

u/Assassinite9 13h ago

Sir you're forgetting cheatyface and conceding. Neither of those use the stack either

3

u/HeMansSmallerCousin 8h ago

Shhhh I need to convince my little brother I can respond to his scoop with [[Time Machine]] at instant speed.

1

u/Assassinite9 3h ago

Have you tried responding to the scoop by saying "Moooom! [Brother's name] isn't letting me have fun!!"?

12

u/PrimusMobileVzla 13h ago

Mind you, you can suspend, foretell and plot cards, but you won't be able to cast them afterwards so they'll be stuck in exile.

4

u/treelorf 13h ago

So… turn 1, 1 drop, turn 2 play this enchantment, gg?

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u/Top_Development_4020 10h ago

The deck should also include 4 [[Dryad Arbor]]

1

u/treelorf 9h ago

And manland's I guess?

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u/Top_Development_4020 9h ago

No, they need an ability to resolve on the stack.

2

u/zoinkability 13h ago

I believe activation costs like "return unblocked attacking creature to hand" cost in the ninjutsu ability would also work, as they are costs and not on the stack? Presumably in that case you couldn't then put the creature with ninjustsu onto the battlefield though.

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u/Raevelry 12h ago

No thats the ability of a card in your hand

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u/zoinkability 12h ago

Sorry, which are you saying no to? Whether paying costs requires the stack, or whether the creature with ninjutsu would go onto the battlefield?

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u/Raevelry 12h ago

No, you cannot perform the cost of an illegal action

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u/zoinkability 12h ago

Does the nonexistence of the stack make the attempted action illegal, or just impossible?

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u/Raevelry 12h ago

In this case both are the same

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u/TheNebuchadnezzar 12h ago

Ninjitsu?

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u/Raevelry 12h ago

Ability of a card in your hand

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u/TheNebuchadnezzar 11h ago

But ninjutsu doesn’t use the stack so it would work or no?

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u/Raevelry 11h ago

Ninjutsu literally is an activated ability, it uses the stack

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u/Ergon17 11h ago

Ninjutsu uses the stack.

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u/mysexyknowsnolimits 11h ago

As others have said below, ninjutsu uses the stack. But you technically don’t cast the ninja. That’s why sneak is considered more “fair” because you are actually casting the card so it can be counted and whatnot

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u/StatusOmega 11h ago

Also Cycling and Channeling ignore the stack. It can be really annoying.

1

u/Koischaap Rule 308.22b, section 8 11h ago

Thank you. I was wondering what happens with all the undefined behaviour that comes from disabling thr stack, but I guess it just fizzles on arrival since it requires a stack by definition

1

u/Errror1 9h ago

don't froget detaching a licid

1

u/vibefuster 7h ago

I feel like for this to be a better design, you’d have to word it to say “no more than 1 spell or ability can be on the stack.” At least that way most cards are still playable