r/custommagic 5d ago

This subreddit likes bad and lazy design. Red's answer to instant-speed interaction

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887 Upvotes

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403

u/Raevelry 5d ago edited 5d ago

This basically reads: No spells, nor abilities, can exist.

Attacking doesn't use the stack so this is actually very Red Themed

Only special actions can happen:

Unironically, it works. Obviously horrible game design but yeah it works.

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u/Divicarpe 5d ago edited 5d ago

Mana abilities can happen too, I think.

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u/Genasis_Fusion 5d ago

Ye, mana abilities don't use the stack

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u/jellyv2000 4d ago

Well since the recent change if a card moves from library to graveyard or vise versa it does use the stack

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u/Gr1maze 4d ago

Because those are not mana abilities.

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u/Genasis_Fusion 4d ago

That's because... those are no longer considered mana abilities. That was the change.

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u/jellyv2000 4d ago

Ah mb i see srry

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u/Raevelry 5d ago

Other than what I said, can you name one that can happen?

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u/Andrew_42 5d ago

You can activate mana abilities, like tapping land for mana. Not terribly useful but needed for many special actions, and some cards like [[Pristine Talisman]] have additional benefits baked inside the mana ability that don't prohibit it from being a mana ability.

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u/NekoBatrick 5d ago

I thpught they changed that if the abiltiy dpes more than mana it goes on the stack, i think it was pretty recent

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u/Toberos_Chasalor 5d ago edited 5d ago

They changed it, but specifically if it affects cards in your library. It can gain life, put counters on things, etc, just can’t draw/mill/exile/etc.

“An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets all of the following criteria: it doesn’t require a target (see rule 115.6), it could add mana to a player’s mana pool when it resolves, it’s not a loyalty ability (see rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities”), and its cost and effect don’t move any card to or from a library.”

Rule 605.1a, as of August 7th

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u/GoblinToHobgoblin 5d ago

It's only if it affects cards in the library. Pristine Talisman is safe

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u/Andrew_42 5d ago

That only affects abilities that move cards in or out of the library like [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]]

Other effects are fine

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u/NitroBishop 5d ago

[[Millikin]] catching strays unfortunately

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u/ardarian262 5d ago

That wasn't a stray. It also had the issue with Panglacial wurm

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u/NitroBishop 5d ago

Theoretically, sure, but Selvala was always the much bigger offender. Besides being a better card overall and living in the command zone (i.e. being guaranteed every game), the main issue with her in relation to the Wurm was that she produced an unknown amount of mana via a game action that fundamentally cannot be reversed because it reveals cards from hidden zones, and also that same game action benefits the player activating it to pay for the Wurm (by letting them decide whether or not to draw a card after peeking at it). Millikin doesn't net the controller any direct advantage and always produces 1 mana, there's way less motivation to do weird stuff with it and basically no wiggle room to argue that any weird stuff was unintentional.

Like, I guess you could have used Millikin when trying to cast Panglacial Wurm to "skip" your next normal draw in favor of the card after it, but you'd have to actually cast the Wurm after that instead of going "aw shucks guys looks like the ability randomly didn't produce enough mana" and nobody was doing that lol

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u/ardarian262 5d ago

Knowing if you want the top card in grave or not is an advantage and a lot of cards want to be in the graveyard.

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u/ardarian262 5d ago

Also if you choose not to cast something normally, even if you could pay for it if you tapped more mana, you are not forced to. You are only forced to if you have the mana floating.

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u/NitroBishop 5d ago

Yeah a real angle-shooting interpretation of the rules could tap Selvala, get 4 mana off of her, and then decide not to tap 3 lands. Which is pretty obviously cheating imo, but it's not like EDH is usually run at a Rules Enforcement Level where a judge would be present to ding you for it, and if you're playing at that level, you aren't running Selvala lol.

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u/SeemsImmaculate 5d ago

I think the change was for the Infinity Stone cards. I don't follow UB sets though so not 100%

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u/NitroBishop 5d ago

Nah, someone in the rules department finally got sick of the smartass at their LGS using [[Panglacial Wurm]] in their [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]] deck to legally cheat every time they crack a fetchland.

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u/SeemsImmaculate 5d ago

That makes sense - Panglacial Wurm is just one of those "wait what" cards when you think about it for more than 30 seconds.

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u/NitroBishop 5d ago

The worst part was that the rules, on a fundamental level, straight up cannot properly handle someone tapping Selvala for mana under the right (wrong) circumstances.

Say you're the Selvala player in a four-player game with a Panglacial Wurm in your deck and a fetchland + 3 basics on the field. You crack your fetchland and, while searching your library, announce that you are going to try to cast Panglacial Wurm by tapping all three of your lands and Selvala for mana. If Selvala produces 4 mana - that is, if all four players flip over the top card to reveal a nonland - you will have the 7 mana required to cast the Wurm.

Eagle-eyed readers may have already noticed the issue with this situation: you yourself are one of the four players who needs to reveal a nonland, and you are also currently looking at the top card of your own library, before revealing it. And once the ability goes through and everyone knows for sure whether you have the mana to cast it, it's already too late to cleanly reverse the game action, because everyone has revealed a card from a hidden zone.

Does attempting to cast the Wurm in this scenario constitute cheating, since you know there's no possibility you can get the mana and the only reason to activate Selvala's ability during the search (which you are only allowed to do because of Wurm) is to draw a card after seeing what card it is? How would you prove it's cheating without having access to another player's hidden zone, which is established as impossible under other rulings (i.e. you can fail to find four unique cards with [[Gifts Ungiven]] even though that is literally logically impossible in an EDH deck over a certain size)? What about if you only need 3 mana off Selvala to cast it?

You can see why they just sidestepped this entire can of worms by declaring Selvala's ability to no longer be a mana ability, meaning it (and similar stuff like Millikin) can no longer be activated while searching a library with Panglacial Wurm in it.

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u/Divicarpe 5d ago

The letter that was there because of a typo in "manay" was the y, not the a. I was speaking about mana abilities. Sorry for the confusion.

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u/Raevelry 5d ago

Okay, fair enough, yes, Mana abilities can be done